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6:00 PM
That's still 6-8 weeks out @JohnDvorak?
 
We're here to keep the peace and avoid it getting too heated or line crossing, we're not content censors.
4
 
@Bart We didn't start the fire. But we for sure did bring a whole lotta pop corn.
 
MY GOD, IT'S FULL OF STARS AND BACKLOG!
2
 
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog The illegal relicensing stands.
 
@user58 I'm impressed by your persistence
 
6:03 PM
Can I ask a stupid question? Is the end goal of this to end discrimination or to encourage civility and tolerance? Because the former is a pipe dream and the latter might be achievable.
 
@user58 I agree: SE could have known this would happen. It seems as though they didn't care. I believe they do care, but they refused to listen to common sense, and now they are responsible.
 
@Mgetz the latter
 
@Mgetz I've heard their goal is to make SO friendly.
 
I believe in the friendliness project. And I think Sara's blog post about that was great.
I also believe discrimination of transgenders is wrong.
 
The sites I frequent don't have this kind of problem in the first place. I'm a little worried they may now have.
9
 
6:05 PM
Apologies as I struggle to communicate, the perils of autism. But it seems to me that the policy is coming off as an attempt to legislate the former and not the latter.
11
 
That's why the downvotes are speaking.
 
No they're not
Oh my God
I don't know what's real anymore
Nightmare material
 
Can't we all imagine the amount of confusion this will create?
 
@JohnDvorak I'd doubt that. I wonder how much gendered language we practically use anyway in our general site contributions, particularly of the kind directed at a specific user. Maybe more in chat, but on the Q&A ... So if we're required to try and be correct on the rare occasions that we do, or to correct ourselves when we're mistake, or to (oh god no) actually learn from our mistakes ... I don't see what the big deal is there ...
 
> I don't know what's right and what's real anymore
> I don't know how I'm meant to feel anymore
> When do you think it will all become clear
> 'Cause I'm being taken over by the fear
> -- Lily Allen - The Fear
 
6:08 PM
What I'm super confused at is what happens with a discussion with more than two people in it, still. I raised a question (as an answer) on the FAQ and honestly, the more I think of it the worse it gets. It's all down to whether "encouraging" others to correct a mistake in pronouns also applies to a third-party. If it does, then there's potential for so much damage
3
 
@weegee No, why?
 
I think another aspect of all this is that it has raised the background level of tension substantially. No matter how inclusive you try to be, everyone will always one day fall short. As a fallback, I try to be decent and charitable to others so when I do eventually offend, I will at least be forgivable.
 
@SaraChipps I have questions about tolerance when people are allowed to demand how to get addressed.
 
another level up in breaking anonymity, pic of NofP
 
@SébastienRenauld how so?
 
6:09 PM
@rene What if people don't reveal their pronouns? What if I flag someone as they are using wrong pronouns. What if the flag handler doesn't know about that particular pronoun.
 
@DavidA "forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us"
 
All the "what-if"ing doesn't seem helpful to me. Remember the golden rule: Assume good faith. This is not a one-strike-you're-out system.
 
@weegee you're way overthinking this.
 
@Bart Suppose I told you my pronoun, and my pronoun isn't standard or public. I'm having a chat with a third party, and that third party mispronouns me, but I don't care. If the "encourage them to change" part of the FAQ applies to third-parties, then you're encouraged to correct the guy, yeah?
Think of the ramifications of this for a second when you don't know who that third-party is or how they may react
 
I think we only just realized the impact this has for communication between two users ...
 
6:12 PM
It's standard information disclosure and that's why I honestly believe this should be narrowed down to if somebody mispronouns you (then you're encouraged to point it out) and not some third-party
 
@JohnDvorak scary, I was just listening to that.
 
So what I don't get is
 
@rene Because that's the most basic thing which comes into our mind when thinking about a conversation.
 
We had years of just "be nice"
 
If the person doesn't seem to mind, I don't think you have any responsibility to take the initiative to correct the person they're speaking to.
 
6:14 PM
the ambiguity didn't cause a moderation calamity then
 
Also, do you have any better argument instead of telling that I'm overthinking this?
 
Why is it suddenly going to?
 
@user58 That's why I'd rather have a clarification of the CoC and the FAQ on this before somebody feels compelled to correct third-parties and cause somebody to get hurt
 
@user58 How will we know that?
 
Because that's not how people tend to communicate.
 
6:15 PM
@weegee that would be overthinking
 
@SébastienRenauld then again, we have in this very room corrected people over the years. "He" is often assumed for users and on occasion we have corrected to "she". I guess you're not to "out" someone against their will, but then again if you're in the know of their preferred pronoun use, you'd also know if you were outing them against their will? But it's all rather hypothetical I think.
 
@user58 Agree entirely. Let's not open the gates to trouble-seekers.
 
Seriously though, I believe you're very much overestimating the scope of change
 
Not necessarily; I can think of plenty of cases where involuntary disclosure about a third-party may happen, much like in meatspace people's religion tends to leak out every now and then for the same kind of reasons
 
Okay, yes, I've corrected people using the wrong pronouns for someone who wasn't around at the time, because I knew that the person in question cared about it. I would do the same under the new CoC, but it would not be required of me. It wasn't required then either. Nothing has really changed.
 
6:16 PM
hence why it'd be better to narrow down to if somebody uses the wrong pronoun when addressing you specifically, to avoid this ambiguity
 
@weegee no, I have not. Use a pronoun if you know it, either because they told you or have it stated in their profile. Make honest attemtps to get it right and correct it and appologize if you screw up.
 
Another point: if A and B have a conversation, and C corrects B's pronoun usage, not only does C leak A's preferred gender, but also their own affiliation with A.
6
 
I've been using the term "judgement call" a lot. And that's for a reason - a lot of this stuff is going to end up being a judgement call. As long as we're all working under the assumption of good faith, the amount of trouble I expect this to directly cause is hovering around zero. That is, if people decide to give it a chance instead of blasting it after being public for, what, an hour.
 
@JohnDvorak flag for a mod and have them deal with it. That's our job.
 
user206222
Some day I'm gonna write an article about "overthinking in bad faith."
4
 
6:18 PM
Please don't accuse me of bad faith. That's not something I have.
 
@Rubiksmoose Are you sure the mod will be aware of anyone's pronoun?
 
I think some of the backlash might also be because people are perceiving all of this as an admonition that their behavior is not good enough (possibly due to identifying with Monica and a "there but by the grace of God go I" sentiment).
4
 
@weegee Presumably, that would be a helpful thing to note in the flag. We deal with a whole lot more sensitive of information than pronouns. You could also ask a mod to check in on the user to see if corrective action is even needed by anyone.
 
@Aza I still have a long rant in my head about the "hyperbole of change". Maybe we can sell it in a bundle :p
 
Sooo... I haven't missed anything, right?
 
6:20 PM
Nope @AndrasDeak. All calm.
 
good :P
 
user206222
This isn't a Nomic and the aim isn't to poke as many logical holes as possible. A lot of this comes down to a judgement call between mods and CMs and is neither justiciable nor plausible without specific context.
 
you know, people don't really ask for much, if someone asks to be called something that makes them feel more comfortable then why not be nice.
 
user206222
@Bart deal! :)
 
Oddly enough, my employer suppresses employee gender from general access as protected diversity data, so people just guess the pronouns in emails. I'm sure it doesn't always end well.
 
6:21 PM
@DavidA or maybe because they want to make the culture better, perhaps users feel offended
 
@Rubiksmoose That's... fine but if I flag someone who is not using the correct pronoun for a user, how will you be sure of it?
 
Can we blanketly refer to people indirectly by using an indefinite pronoun, e.g.: "One suggests that X is the answer."
 
@Aza You're right, it's not a nomic, it's a ruleset we're all supposed to agree and abide by.
 
On the flipside, why not stop trying to coerce behavior of people who may not necessarily agree with it? What about the offence to THEIR feelings and rights of existence?
3
 
user206222
@JohnDvorak That's not a reply to what you wrote.
 
6:21 PM
roger, thanks
 
@Aza We try to. But many of us professionally work finding and "poking as many logical holes as possible" :)
 
user206222
@SébastienRenauld The CoC is not a rule set, either.
 
You should team up and call the article "The sky is falling and it's everyone's fault - how an undercurrent of tension can lead to spiraling assumptions of what will happen"
 
@Magisch We had years of trans users and moderators telling us SE that Be Nice wasn't working.
4
 
@nitsua60 so? we'll be better. It's not like this is an unique and unsolvable problem that is impossible to quantify and solve
 
6:23 PM
(Some trans users were speaking publicly; many privately.)
 
I'd rather just see a policy that pushes for removing the problem, rather than compounding it. I agree with respecting folks and treating them well, but that does not mean that we should supersede the rights of individuals who do not agree. We should expect and require respect, but not forced adherence to a specific plan that mainly benefits specific sectors of the community only.
3
 
@nitsua60 what we're not allowed to have standards
 
What constitutes not working?
 
@Magisch For years we weren't being better. "Nothing changes if nothing changes" is something I try to drill into my students' heads. There's nothing to suggest that, absent some action on SE's part, anything would get better for trans users.
(Making no claim on whether this was the good or best thing to do by SE.)
 
@PaulBeverage specific sectors of the community?
 
6:24 PM
@PaulBeverage Having a kinder community that treats us like people (instead of content machines) benefits all of us.
3
 
@nitsua60 I'm not excusing years past. I'm saying that the sky is not suddenly falling and everyone's getting banned. I'm in favor of the COC change broadly
 
we have to Be Nice to everyone no matter how bad their question is, or how little research they've done
 
I'm just saying ambiguity isn't something we were overly concerned in the past, due to our moderators being eminently sensible, and they still are
 
You cannot both require respectful behavior and allow for people who do not want to grant that respect.
5
 
That is blatantly true
 
6:25 PM
@CesarM Thanks for the edit, concern addressed!
 
@Magisch I'm not sure I'm parsing correctly: are you saying 'the sky's not suddenly falling and it's not the case that everyone's getting banned' or 'the sky's not suddenly falling so why are we suddenly banning everyone'? (Sorry for the confusion.)
 
This policy is primarily designed around the LGBTQ+ community, no? It directly benefits them, but serves to only conform the rest of the community. IE, it comes off negatively, and is causing more issues than it is solving. Do you not think some will be pissed and keep causing trouble when they are demanded to conform? Just saying...I'd rather see the problem resolved in a way that does not heighten tensions, but still addresses the issue
 
How exactly did "Be Nice" fail? Did people not abide by it?
 
oh my, there are stars everywhere.
 
@PaulBeverage the discomfort someone experiences when being misgendered does not compare to the discomfort someone experiences when breaking a fussy 19th century grammar rule
 
6:26 PM
@nitsua60 No, I'm arguing that this is not going to make everyone get banned due to ambiguity, but is a eminently good change that will ideally just lead to some more respectful treatment
I'm addressing concerns that the ambiguity in this policy will be abused because it's ambiguous. I think thats a weak argument because we've always had ambiguity - more then now, in fact.
 
Really? I've been misgendered more times than not when calling anyone, or ordering at the drive thru, due to medical issues with my lungs and throat. Ma`am, mrs, ms, miss, etc. So do not tell me as though I have no clue
 
I wonder if I've had stuff flagged for being non-inclusive.
 
@Zaralynda It's not about 19th century grammar rules, at least to most who mind the new policy. But it does attack some people's religious views.
 
At no point was it life altering for me; only annoying and embarassing
 
@PaulBeverage I disagree. I believe (as a Christian, if you care) that even though I am not of the LGBTQIA+ community I am benefited by being taught to treat them better. It makes me better. I do better. I love and understand better.
5
 
6:27 PM
Why did a moderator remove my comment where I declared I wanted "dude" as my preferred pronoun?
 
@PaulBeverage I'd say it benefits everyone. Even selfish old me. If us being kind and caring as shown through a little gesture as pronoun use is going to get us more and happier users, I'm sure somehow somewhere I'll benefit in the long run. And no matter what you do, there are always users going to be upset or cause trouble ... does that imply we should not be actively kind? I'd say not.
 
This seems unfair.
 
@ballBreaker meta.stackexchange.com/contact not the right place here.
 
It attacks people without religious views as well. Not all atheists, etc support specific measures like this, regardless of their thoughts on Transgenderism
 
user194636
It really is hard to see how SE could have implemented all this any worse. A loss for all concerned.
 
6:29 PM
Aaaand, I'm out of stars
2
 
No, I would never suggest lacking kindness, regard, or polite discourse for anything
 
@JohnDvorak Here, have a star.
 
I mentioned that above, I thought :/
 
@JohnDvorak the comments I've seen are objections to singular they. I don't spend time on the religious sites and have not seen comments on those
 
@JohnDvorak I've largely been avoiding giving stars to avoid pile on situations
 
6:30 PM
@JohnDvorak ⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️
 
@nitsua60 -- I agree that we should treat people better (always). But there is a difference between better treatment, and forced conformity. That is not kindness. That is merely politeness. I'd rather see the problem solved with actual kindness, honestly
 
@Bart Can't we be kind while ignoring gender, race, and religion entirely?
 
@PaulWhite any alternatives? Doing nothing didn't seem an option either.
 
All this letter-of-the-law stuff is really confusing... Why couldn't we just add "be respectful of people's gender-identities and pronouns" to our definition of being nice?
 
@canon Isn't that we've been doing all along?
 
6:31 PM
I think someone brought up a great point in a comment, that because he's straight, he's called "cis" which makes him upset due to the fact he doesn't prefer the term "cis" over the term "Straight".
 
I'm a bit new to the meta scene so I am asking in earnest, not trying to be problematic.
 
@Zircon because programmers like to pick at minutia
 
@StephanS straight and cis are two entirely different concepts.
 
@StephanS I thought cis was orthogonal to straight.
 
Can we take a breather
 
6:31 PM
Okay, @meagar, @ballBreaker ...
 
no more in this room
 
@Zaralynda that's just my point. If we didn't try to be so formal about it, things would smooth over more easily, wouldn't they?
 
user194636
@rene Implementation, Rene, not goals. SE failed to engage the mods or the community, and just cocked it up at every stage of the process. Far too many to list. See meta.
 
@user58 I'm not envying what you have to go through now, 58
 
@Zircon you're asking cows to fly I think :-)
 
6:33 PM
Mostly because tomorrow it's probably SO's room's turn to simmer
 
lets move on
 
@weegee well you could always link to some instance of it in the flag, a moderator could also already be aware of it. They could also reach out to you for more information and gather any examples you have. The tooling right now is really conducive to making searching for instances easy, but we'll make do with what we have for now. And at the very worst it means the mod will try to keep an eye out for problems with that user.
 
can we freeze the room for 15 to let it chill please?
 
We clearly have members that do not want to be particularly respectful to trans people. Eg meta.stackexchange.com/a/334636/334566 This CoC will antagonize them. And over the last week, posts & comments by various LGBTQ+ people have expressed that they now feel less comfortable and welcome because of their association with the troubles of the last week.
2
 
❄️
 
6:33 PM
I know a few people who are trans/bisexual/DID (live in a very small town and near a small city) -- and I have never disrespected them, regardless of my thoughts on their specific beliefs (the same as differences in religion). So I am all for better treatment of all, LGBTQ+ or not.
 
@weegee And honestly, this is basically the same exact thing that comes up with any kind of accusation of long term harassment, abuse, or rudeness. Pronouns are not a special case.
 
@Mgetz please no
 
Wait, people are blaming the individuals @PM2Ring?
 
@PaulBeverage So I guess that's where reasonable people can differ. I'm not seeing this as forced conformity (aside from the conformity of 'when someone asks you to address them a particular way, do that'), I'm seeing it as the removal of an actual harm that many members have been telling us is routinely done to them. You're seeing it differently. That's okay.
 
@Mgetz Meh, been going on for hours, up to this point it hasn't been out of hand
 
6:34 PM
@PaulBeverage I'm not quite sure what you're saying. But the feeling that some LGBTQ+ have expressed is that the conservative / anti-LGBTQ+ crowd are looking at them saying "It's all your fault!"
 
@JohnDvorak I think we've gotten extremely recently into intolerant territory and personally think a timeout is in order
 
Soooo, how bout them bears?
 
This room was placed in timeout for 3 minutes; Things are getting a bit heated. It's time for everyone to take a breather and collect themselves.
3
 
silent bin for a discussion that ceased
 
6:39 PM
Wait, MSE chat gets a cool animated countdown during freezes? That's because it's hosted on the SO side of the chat-divide, not the SE side, right? No fair. They get all the best toys.
 
Don't mention bears @froopy. You see what happened.
 
can we talk about how cool that animation is
3
 
What in the world do bears have to do with it, @Bart?
 
@StephanS Ditto
 
user194636
@nitsua60 It happens everywhere. You don't see it if you're a mod (or maybe RO).
 
6:39 PM
^ Okay, another bear mention. Timeout pls.
 
@StephanS please do
 
@Froopy sports the only think more volatile than religion
 
the dev time used to create said animation should have been used to make chat look better
 
ROs can't see the countdown, I missed it :(
 
It semi-hypnotizes you so you just wonder if you're hypnotized or not
 
6:40 PM
@PaulWhite Oh, okay. [peeve holstered]
 
Just kidding btw @Froopy, in case that wasn't clear.
 
@nitsua60 -- Perhaps I have misread the changes, it seemed like I could not choose to start using more generalized language on SE to avoid upsetting or misgendering. The "as you would normally" made me think that the way I talk (he/she/him/her unless I'm told different) was not allowed anymore
 
@Rubiksmoose Pronouns are indeed a special case if you think the workings of flags and handling. How come we can expect every moderator to handle so many flags? And still, expect mods to remember the pronouns of every user they have to moderate for?
 
It was very well put together, the time was perfect, and the fade was timely.
 
user194636
@nitsua60 It's worth hanging out in rooms without privilege just to see it.
 
6:40 PM
I think we can all agree that the English language is suboptimally designed. It would be nice if I could issue a pull request to its governing body, but I know of no such thing.
3
 
Sometimes it isn't as clear lol. I've been lurking around SO forever but rarely participate because it scares me.
lol
 
@PaulWhite I can't remember the last time I've been in a room that was frozen....
 
@PaulBeverage I would not say the rule benefits us. I'd rather not have SE devise a rule to 'protect' me that does the opposite.
 
user194636
@nitsua60 Mate it was like 2 minutes ago!
 
@Froopy don't be scared ... unless you see @rene. But other than that you should be fine.
 
6:41 PM
@DavidA You could try asking the Oxford university
 
@DavidA English is okay, what the Americans did to it ...
 
@DavidA my mind just jumped to french... which does have a governing body but doesn't take pull requests
 
@PM2Ring I am conservative-ish (more independent really) and Christian (not that it matters, it should push me more towards kindness and love), but I have never blamed anyone outside of SE for SE's policies. That is sad that others are doing so
 
@DavidA Why do we have to modify the English language?
 
@rene See this kind of intolerance /s
 
6:42 PM
@PaulBeverage I really hope you will continue not to do so!
 
@Cerberus -- After reading PM2's statement, I see how things are turning out bad on all sides :(
 
@Mgetz exactly
 
@PaulBeverage PM2?
 
Quick poll: Is my not wanting to have to care about anyone's gender considered intolerant?
 
PM 2Ring
 
6:42 PM
@canon yes
 
@rene the UK and the US two great nations separated by a common language
 
@canon no
 
I vote we all start speaking Latin, English is overrated.
 
@Mgetz That is an interesting adjective...
@StephanS +1
 
I wish people would get over the whole issue about using someone's preferred pronoun. It's not that hard. We're never going to achieve infinite diversity in infinite combinations like this, and as a result, we'll stagnate as a species.
 
6:43 PM
Oh no...I'd never be able to speak LOL -- can we do Korean? Such a logically structured language
 
Latin.SE shall become the biggest site.
 
@StephanS Salve!
 
@weegee There are going to be easy situations, though: "can you please call me 'xe,' not 'he,'" "Yeah, foo always goes by 'x'" "No way I'm going to do that!" And the boot comes. That alone is an interaction that we now, publicly, say we support. When it happens, an unambiguous message is sent to the offender and every observer. That's good for everyone--LGBTQIA+ or not--because it's another vector for the message "use your words reasonably, and ROs/mods will have your back."
 
@canon it's considered racist to claim "I don't see race"
 
@Cerberus it's an old joke...
 
6:43 PM
I DON"T GET STARS I AM A STAR
XD
 
There may be some hard situations, sure. But you don't design for edge cases.
 
@Zaralynda by whom?
 
@Froopy also not calling it a preferred pronoun
 
user194636
@Froopy Wouldn't that require infinite people?
 
user194636
I'm not sure Mother Earth is up for that
 
6:44 PM
@PaulWhite just divide someone by zero
 
In any case, I gotta run. Be well, everyone.
 
bye
 
take care!
 
user194636
@AndrasDeak Makes sense
 
@AndrasDeak, my apologies. I didn't mean any offense.
 
6:44 PM
I know, just FYI, this is one of many facets of the same thing
 
@Froopy Most people don't have issue using specific pronouns when told to. Most have issues with using specific pronouns instead of names / other language constructs, and with having to remember for indefinite time all pronouns they have been told about. As well as plethora other issues with the FAQ.
 
@Mgetz I know, I know.
 
@Froopy we all learn one step at a time. :)
 
What would be acceptable instead of preferred?
 
6:45 PM
@Froopy just pronouns
 
@Zaralynda I think that is a really bad statement.
 
any pronoun?
 
@Zaralynda Claiming "I don't see different races" and not considering someone's race when judging their work are different things
 
Will keep that in mind. Thank you for pointing it out to me.
 
In my book, that's the ideal of non-racism
 
6:46 PM
anytime
 
@Froopy pronouns, personal pronouns, no prefix
 
Isn't 'personal' a prefix?
 
pro- is a prefix
pre- is a fixper
 
@PaulBeverage Sorry about that. I'm on my phone, and I fumble-fingered. It's 5:46 AM in my timezone, and I'm getting weary.
 
@Froopy Uh, no?
 
6:47 PM
Oh, wait, I misread that.
Nevermind.
 
@Cerberus okay
 
@JohnDvorak The remembering them is a concern for me, I am forgetful at times, and might slip up out of poor memory, rather than mal-intent. I hope the CoC and those who prefer different pronouns would be understanding of mistakes (specifically mistakes, not when people keep conveniently forgetting)
 
@PM2Ring That is probably the worst time to discuss things like this for a lot of people :/
 
It adds another level to Law.SE because there are gender-specific laws but it shouldn't be too much of a workaround
 
Get some rest!
 
6:47 PM
@PM2Ring no worries, I understand :) Been there, done that
 
@PaulBeverage But please also see the posts from Cyn, eg meta.stackexchange.com/a/334670/334566
 
Or maybe don't get rest, if you have
 
Aza shared this link the other day which is a good read: radicalcopyeditor.com/2017/08/31/transgender-style-guide
 
I'm fairly certain "mistakes" aren't what the CoC is targeting. It's intentional misuse.
 
@PaulBeverage unfortunately, it's difficult to tell when someone's mistake isn't actually a mistake.
 
6:48 PM
Me: I'll get a flu shot and just my arm will hurt. Flu shot: LOL keep thinking that <headache and nausea>
 
which... can be pretty easily determined on a case-by-case basis but is impossible to legislate broadly with rules.
 
@JohnDvorak if you keep making them they might not be ...
 
@Zaralynda The determining factor was presumed to be whether the students read an essay first? Did you see a link to the published study? I'm trying to find it...
 
@JohnDvorak Genau, in an unrelated context, information is usually limited
 
I still stand by my original point, though. We should just allow people to be called what they want to be called and move on. When you deny someone's identity, it's a deeper hit than most people realize.
 
6:49 PM
Ok but we downvote post for being "troll post" when we have no idea what the Users intention were
 
@StephanS There are usually pretty strong clues on meta sites.
 
@StephanS eh ... if you mean the user in chat just now ... let's not kid ourselves.
 
But yes, it's never absolute certainty
Chat too.
 
But let's not rehash that, lest we bring up the countdown timer again. Which was fancy though ...
 
My point is
 
6:51 PM
isn't it
 
That timer was pretty awesome.
 
@Bart Yeah, that's not much incentive to quiet down. Mesmerizing...
 
If we're talking about pronouns, you can tell who's trolling. If it's programming, you can't.
 
can you though
 
@M.A.R. dunno the person that immediately posts "Don't use ___ it's a garbage language" is pretty much an obvious troll
 
6:52 PM
@M.A.R. surely any form of "modern" C++ can't be serious ...
 
Can we talk about something that we can probably agree on?
152
A: Official FAQ on gender pronouns and Code of Conduct changes

MakotoIf a user states their preferred pronouns in the course of asking a technical question - where personal identity doesn't generally apply - would removing that language then constitute a violation of the CoC?

 
@Bart and this is what I'm talking about...
 
sometimes what we see as parody is sincerity
 
@canon I didn't dig that far into that particular link; it's an idea that's been around for awhile. Here's a published study: dholoien.people.amherst.edu/papers/HoloienShelton2012.pdf
 
sorry if this is naive but why is there so much backlash against this coc. it feels like a perfectly resonable policy to me
 
6:53 PM
^
 
@Mgetz I'm not a troll! I'm just a misunderstood long-haired curmudgeon.
 
I wish I could upvote revisions... meta.stackexchange.com/revisions/334900/5
 
Can't see the hair over all the . . . glass thingy
 
@Zaralynda Thanks for the link. To clarify, that's not the study referenced in the article, though?
 
because it's a continuous push toward the left. year after year. when there's no need for such nonsense on SO.
 
6:54 PM
me is him/he/his
 
@Bart You left out freakishly tall.
 
Is it against the CoC if I see somebody using a neopronoun and get confused because I don't realize it's a pronoun and not a name?
 
Ssssst @JoshDarnell ... most of these people don't know yet ...
 
All of these problematic cases that this CoC supposedly fixes were already covered by the original Be Nice policy.
 
@KevinB I am not sure I would agree specifically that there is no need. Nor that it is nonsense. People do have a right to be treated with dignity
 
6:54 PM
@Gwideon you can't decouple it from the past two weeks' events (i.e. what happened to Monica). And in this context the new CoC sounds like a beating stick, when it should be a shield.
 
@Bart See that's exactly the sort of information you're not supposed to dox about people...
 
@KevinB there's a need for such clarifications on other SE sites and in chat, so a blanket CoC change makes sense. Maybe it won't get much use on SO. shrug
 
@Gwideon it is a reasonable policy change. The debate seems to be about the consequences this can have for them. That is what users are concerned about.
 
Except i feel it's less about politics and more about being a compassionate and decent human being.
 
That's true @AndrasDeak. It's like watching a car crash in slow motion.
 
6:55 PM
yeah, no. it's political
 
@canon lol, I closed the tab for the original link and am too lazy to scroll back
 
@Gwideon it's very much about politics, but only due to how the company has handled...well, everything
 
@Gwideon concerns over wording and enforcement, mixed signals
 
Even when considering all the other events that have eroded community trust.
 
@Bart Oops! My bad, person of average height.
 
6:56 PM
@Zaralynda lol, nm then. Just the short summary smacked of an editorial leap (as is common in news); so, I wanted to check the actual study. Thanks for the alternate study, though.
 
@Mgetz Very glad that one got sorted out
 
I finally get the courage to talk and wouldn't you know it, it's in the middle of a catastrophe.
 
Most of us want to stay neutral on this topic by using usernames but the policy focuses us from being neutral even if we are being respectful
 
+1 timing
 
I think with recent events, community members are being especially critical of SE's efforts and policies.
 
6:57 PM
I can get things like that but there's some people who hate the very idea of this policy. also some of the discourse around this is frankly rather hurtful especially as someone who prefers gender neutral pronouns
 
Getting rid of sarcasm sounds a bit extreme, although if you allow it, you permit its use as a defense if something gets misinterpreted.
 
@Froopy the benefit is that anything you say will scroll by much faster than it normally would. So if you regret it, it won't last. :p
 
@canon a reasonable impulse! I'd do it too, except that I've been aware of the concept for a long time so even if there are problems with that particular study, I don't doubt the concept in general
 
@Zaralynda understood.
 
sorry I'll shut up
 
6:58 PM
@Bart True, but it's still always there. In IRC, you had the luxury of most people not logging chats, but everything here is up to see pretty much forever. I was always terrified of saying the wrong thing.
 
@Bart we go over the transcript in the next 6 to 8 weeks. Everything we find will be held against you.
 
@rene I have enough stars to bail myself out. You've got NOTHING!
 
@Froopy my logging on IRC is on by default...
 
HexChat?
 
@Bart meaningfully eyes cancel stars button
 
6:59 PM
@Froopy well yeah. Twitter mobs, scathing medium postings, etc. One wrong word and you're thrust involuntarily onto the world stage.
 
IRC -- mIRC -- I remember those days
 
IRC is love <3
 
@Magisch did ... did I tell you ... that you're my favourite cactus?
 

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