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Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

12:13 PM

@Bart think we lost Shog, yeah... :/

Magisch

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard I hope part of what made him quit has been addressed by today's rule changes

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

@JourneymanGeek self nuked

@Magisch huh?? TL;DR? Didn't see it yet

Journeyman Geek

→ 11 messages moved to Chimney

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard see pins

Magisch

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7203827#7203827 and chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7203831#7203831

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

.mobile no pins

Journeyman Geek

12:16 PM

then see what @Magisch linked

errr

Magisch

y'might've misplaced that reply :p

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

@Magisch umm... Thought you meant actual rules. Well.. To be honest I am very uncomfortable with those "rules".

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard we really tried to talk to Sonic about it, and well...

its either that or we start shedding users

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

Unless SE staff will give them official seal.

Magisch

I don't fancy losing a bunch of staff participation because they're exasperated and exhausted due to ping spam

the rules aren't so much actual rules as they are managing expectations of RO behavior.

πάντα ῥεῖ

12:20 PM

We told em several times, no?

Journeyman Geek

and tbh - a lot of it is common sense/courtesy, and respecting the fact that there's proper channels for doing things.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

This room is not just any chat room. It is the only room where people can reach SE staff. Rule preventing it kills the main reason this room exists.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard Well, if those SE staff start leaving...

We wouldn't need to tell folks "hey, could you stop constantly pinging people cause you want to fast track something" if... people didn't constantly ping people cause they didn't want to go through normal channels

Magisch

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard We've come to a point where SE staff is scaling back their participation here because of the pingspam. Shog's 9 rules of pinging apparently didn't help:

yesterday, by Shog9

No one - including you - took those seriously or paid any attention to them anyway.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

Unless I am told by SE staff to stop, I will keep pinging SE staff when I need them. Even if non staff RO will kick me as result.

And if we can't ping staff here, I will ask this room to be closed.

Journeyman Geek

12:23 PM

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard sigh. We'd just like to avoid the sort of drama that seems to... constantly happen cause of this. If it is actually urgent, or you're talking to a staff member there's no issue

We arn't going to go "NO PINGS FOR YOU" all the time

user194636

As I understand it, Shog mostly left due to the lack of fun, and too much tension. I think that's more important than the pings. I might be wrong.

Journeyman Geek

But we had a clear issue with a user - who has stated that he will respond to explicit rules, and we're doing our best with what we have.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

Agree. Sonic's pings played very little role in Shog leaving, as far as I can tell.

user194636

If the room becomes more fun and less tense, the Shog will return. He won't be able to help himself.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

At least the direct pings themselves. Maybe the drama by others is a different story.

Magisch

12:25 PM

The quote I linked to me is suggesting that nobody took shog's rules of pinging seriously

user194636

Maybe. Anyway, everyone needs a break now and again. What was it, eight years straight?

Magisch

If he felt the need to mention it then clearly it must have been a pain point for him. That's something we can fix

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

False flags is the biggest fun killer IMO.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard lemme put it this way - I'm going to try to act by example here. I'm going to try to talk to people when they are... well, being a drag on the room as a whole.

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

But.... Better not go into this now... Just said what's on my mind.

user194636

12:27 PM

@Magisch Sure. It would be rude to ping him anyway after he said he was leaving.

Magisch

Hopefully just the existence of the rule will curb unnecessary pings to staff

Journeyman Geek

TBH, my primary preference for "rules" enforcement is lots of polite nagging here.

But at least I'll have something to point at when nagging folks who are naggy about it?

Magisch

We're not gonna go and setup a kickbot to remove people who ever ping staff.

user194636

I disagree btw that people should not flag stuff (here or anywhere) that concerns them. If the flags are misused, consequences will no doubt arise for the flagee. There has to be a private channel available for a room to fully effectively self-moderate.

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite My opinion here is that the best way to deal with things is, well to be able to talk things through

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard

12:29 PM

@Magisch my rules are more simple to follow and still very fair in my opinion. Ping a staff member only when you really need to, and only once with full context. Most important: do not ping again if not getting a response.

2

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard I'm happy with that

Drag and Drop

10 ping per user refilled only if you brings m&ms or chocolate as payment. this way Staff quit because of diabètes instead

2

user194636

@JourneymanGeek That is usually correct. Nevertheless, people will not always speak up in public. Also: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309645/…

Journeyman Geek

But I'd also rather not have sonic ping me in some situations.

And there's certain other issues we've had which we're going to need to deal with over time.

Magisch

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard I'm not concerned with your ping behavior. I think though that having that as a standard will lend itself to "But I really need my edit reviewed / naa flag processed"

Journeyman Geek

12:32 PM

@ShadowtheWelcomingWizard there's a lot of wiggle room in how I worded it. I don't see anything wrong with pinging someone to keep things in context, or to bring something to attention that is actually important

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Then you need to sort that out with that user directly, and possibly not in public. No one enjoys being publicly beaten up.

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite I've done it to the point where I nearly quit the channel.

user194636

All I'm saying is there is a process and best practice for all this.

user194636

I'll not beat the point to death.

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite "Hey, stop that please!" usually suffices.

Magisch

12:33 PM

You can see just the discussion we had with sonic underneath the pinned messages for an example of how "but all my pings are important".

@PaulWhite I'd rather not get real formal with first and second warnings followed by kicks. Different users need different encouragement to behave

user194636

@Magisch Has that produced the desired results so far? As I understand what everyone is saying, various things have been problematic for a long period of time.

Journeyman Geek

@PaulWhite we've mostly had super laisse faire "moderation" here on our parts.

user194636

Did it cost us a Shog? Maybe, maybe not.

user194636

I mostly lurk rather than talk, (meta can be scary, main or chat). Perhaps I don't have enough context.

user194636

There again, ideally chat wouldn't be scary.

Journeyman Geek

12:39 PM

Nope

But I'd like to add. On SU, I have a much easier time since I've been there for ages, and we all kinda grew into rules we can mostly live with, and are unwritten.

user194636

I came across this old meta question today:

user194636

50

Q: Create CW answer for every "Vote to close as duplicate" vote

Shog once suggested an better way of dealing with duplicate votes by making each suggested duplicate an answer that could be voted on. Let's do it! One of the biggest advantages of that idea is that dupe suggestions start visibly competing with answers. So when a dupe gets asked, people actual...

user194636

I've always rejected that idea in the past, but now I'm not so sure something like that wouldn't be worth trying.

John Dvorak

I like the idea

user194636

There was a meta.SO Q & A (which I can't now find) where someone was lamenting the fact that s/he couldn't provide a (CW?) answer to a duplicate that showed the OP how to apply the techniques in the duplicate to their specific problem. I see some value in that as well.

πάντα ῥεῖ

12:45 PM

@PaulWhite I always wondered what happened to the other 8 ;-)

user194636

Heh that's true.

user194636

Wasn't it originally Nine-Shogs-A-Shogging? Or was that someone else?

Journeyman Geek

For an xmas joke, but I am half certain that's based off the nickname

user194636

Oh, 12 days of Christmas, right

Shadow the Welcoming Wizard