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8:02 AM
Well - its part of a broader process, sure but you can't really 'help' someone with serious species dysphoria just by, well pure psycotherapy
 
8:13 AM
Gender dysphoria, species dysphoria, phobia...
I'm probably a unicorn...
 
Do you zap random people by accident with your horn?
 
@Somewhat just be wary of people drinking your blood...
 
.... did I say species
damn it
I meant gender
Sorry!
 
8:28 AM
....I can't get that mental picture of Ash in sunglasses out of my head
now i want to see it actually happen :P
d'arvit internet
 
@Mithrandir we've never managed that
or normal glasses for that matter
 
So... just to make sure I've got my abbreviations etc. straight: ace = asexual? aro = aromantic? What does cis stand for, I know it means something like 'what's normal for most of the population'...
 
@JourneymanGeek :(
 
cisgender
ace isn't really a abbrevation
 
@JourneymanGeek Yeah... but what does the cis in cisgender stand for?
 
8:30 AM
cisgender = gender expression matching biological sex
 
@Tinkeringbell as opposed to transgender
 
So a female identifying as female is cisgender
 
species dysphoria = furries?
 
@Magisch "identifying" is kinda...
 
@Magisch I've got the 'meaning' part. I just want the word part ;)
 
8:30 AM
@JohnDvorak alas, I do not like you well enough to tell you those stories ;)
 
I want to know what 'cis' stands for. not what it means
Okay, that's a borked sentence, does anyone understand?
 
@Tinkeringbell in a sense, opposite to trans. Think chemicals
 
Maybe I should just google when I'm home ;)
 
Cis–trans isomerism, also known as geometric isomerism or configurational isomerism, is a term used in organic chemistry. The prefixes "cis" and "trans" are from Latin: "this side of" and "the other side of", respectively. In the context of chemistry, cis indicates that the functional groups are on the same side of the carbon chain while trans conveys that functional groups are on opposing sides of the carbon chain. Cis-trans isomers are stereoisomers, that is, pairs of molecules which have the same formula but whose functional groups are rotated into a different orientation in three-dimensional...
 
cis = !trans
 
8:32 AM
@JourneymanGeek oh okay, so that's where it comes from.
Thanks!
 
Well, I suspect so
 
And what was that about ace?
 
think the origins of the work are somewhere describing regularly or irregularly folded molecules
 
Someone said it wasn't an abbreviation?
 
Ace is kind of just an easier term they use
 
8:32 AM
asexual - the beginning sounds like "ace"
 
They didn't use it that much when I hung around that community
 
i've personally never used ace
 
But lovely lot. Many of them got things and had a very nuanced way of talking about all these things.
 
@Mithrandir Okay, that explains why I didn't find it in any list of abbreviations ;)
 
Google knows (almost) everything though, including when I searched "ace people"
 
8:34 AM
(and you could be, for example, asexual, gay and romantic)
 
@JourneymanGeek Hmmm. I've tried to understand and research some of it, as it comes up a lot on IPS too. Must say most of what I see does absolutely not match my criteria for 'nuanced'
 
Certainly not "ace students"...
 
hah, Its been years but you can ask me about my entirely outdated knowledge of it as I remember ;)
 
There are ace students, and there are ace students
 
@Somewhat Heh. I usually go with 'abbreviation' or 'meaning' or 'definition' as a second keyword if I'm looking for what a word means...
Guess I should maybe look for two words sometimes
 
8:35 AM
I kind of dislike labels in general
 
@Magisch yep. but sometimes, they're useful
 
People seem to throw them around and expect others to understand the nuances behind them that they themselves spent years learning and formulating
 
But more or less, there's folks who're asexual (as in not interested) or asexual (as in the idea of it is massively repulsive). Some folks do actually also have romantic lives, some prefer not to.
@Magisch hah. I used to hang out in a community like that too.
 
@JourneymanGeek I know ;) I've gotten that far too... I was more researching labels and how to use them...
 
But I don't remember Ace being an abbrivation
 
8:37 AM
In this thread: I learnt quite many new things though
 
@Somewhat mission accomplished ;)
 
@Somewhat \o/
 
I don't understand nonbinary at all, but shrug I can respect people are, and when its time for me to grok, I'll grok ;)
 
That sounds like my opinion, too
 
8:40 AM
can't speak for other people obviously, but I really don't care if people misuse labels on me or don't get it right as long as they're not doing it on purpose or in willful ignorance
 
@JourneymanGeek Yep. There seems to be very little research on non-binary ...
sociological or anthropological
I think even psychological there's not much
 
@Tinkeringbell and honestly? Not that many people are non binary in my (historical) social circles
so I just haven't gone "Hey, I've never heard about this. TALK!"
and some of the spaces I used to be in before SE were really good for that sorta thing.
 
@JourneymanGeek people tell me the questions I ask are too personal/awkward sometimes sooo... I've tried to ask less questions ;)
and google more
 
@Tinkeringbell oh, some communities I was in were just good for that.
or people would just... talk about it cause some of those places were just safe spaces.
 
@JourneymanGeek Heh. I'm guessing people won't appreciate me and my questions barging into their safe space ;)
 
8:44 AM
@Tinkeringbell unless it was a safe space for asking questions or sharing, well, stuff like that.
 
Kinda defeats the whole purpose of a safe space or social media bubble ;)
 
But most of those places fizzled out eventually
 
I'd rather people ask questions then insult
 
So asking questions is at least 4 paces above what you normally get online when exposing any weakness or personal detail
 
8:44 AM
@Magisch Yeah, but so far I've met a few 'your question is insulting'...
 
Well, there's a few problems with se being that kinda space.
We're default public.
We're still, well, at heart, a collection of techie folks who are often socially inept
and well, that community had a few odd things tying them together at first and was a very unique set of circumstances
actually, what, to me broke things down was when it stopped being a safe, friendly space
(I think I've talked about that story here chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/89?m=7083104#7083104 )
And well, that's something I try to work on in every community I am in. I'd like to make sure its a safe friendly space, and I try not to nip too many ankles in the process ;)
 
9:01 AM
@JourneymanGeek I'm still struggling with 'safe friendly place'... safe friendly place for everyone seems quite impossible to reach sometimes :/
 
@Tinkeringbell well unique circumstances
it was a small community, with small clusters of very closely knit friends talking about, well, unusual topics
 
safe haven
 
@Tinkeringbell Correct.
 
@Somewhat Personally, I don't really like those. If I'd have stuck in my safe haven, I'd never be here ;)
 
Also, IIRC "cis" comes from biochemistry, where fat molecules can either be in the "cis" or "trans" form, and since "trans" is also used in its prefix sense in the word "transgender", the prefix "cis" is used instead by analogy
 
9:04 AM
@Tinkeringbell the problem with spaces like that is, well, you need folks in charge with... very specific attributes
 
it works with stuff like.... TrevorSpace
 
flat earthers...
 
In a sense, you need a sheepdog ;)
One of those big fluffly things that sheep assume are sheep and will ... ruin a wolf's day
 
@JourneymanGeek Yeah, to herd a lot of sheep. Exactly what I don't really like about safe spaces and stuff, they encourage 'sheeple'
 
or someone both with empathy towards other users, but able to take out bad eggd without worrying too much.
 
@Tinkeringbell ah, but there's safe spaces where danger is non existant...
and the ones where the sheep are... going to take a chunk out of marauding wolves ;)
and by a safe space I mean "everyone else here is odd. You can talk about stuff and people will try to understand"
 
Still... I don't like the analogy of sheep vs. wolves when it goes for safe spaces maybe. But to me, a safe space implies it's a space where people can talk/discuss X, without any outside views infringing on it. So no-one tell you to 'this is a problem when taken out of this safe space'
 
But it didn't last long so ;)
@Tinkeringbell well - consider the conversation we just had earlier
 
You're isolating yourself into a very tight bubble once entering a safe space, one that doesn't really represent the world at large
it hampers thinking for yourself
 
For most part, people were respectful, we didn't go "hey, you totally are a terrible person for not knowing that!"
 
9:09 AM
@Tinkeringbell Of course. But sometimes, what you need is a place where you won't get attacked. A reprieve.
 
Asylum...
 
@Mithrandir I know. And I don't like the thought
 
@Tinkeringbell well, some folks actually needed that space - and it kinda helped, for a while
Also, in a sense isn't that kind of the goal of the COC?
 
Understanding each other's weakness?
 
To me, the 'ideal' space is where folk have at least a little respect for each other. We talk things through (like adults?) and hopefully work out ways that people actually feel they want to come here.
@Somewhat well, differences.
 
9:15 AM
@JourneymanGeek I don't think so... a safe space is different from one where everyone is welcome...
 
@Tinkeringbell how?
 
Maybe we're working with different definitions of safe space here..
 
maybe!
 
but to me a safe space is a space that only welcomes likeminded people
a big bubble, that shuts out the outside world
the CoC is way more than that
 
@Tinkeringbell in this case - that it was to an extent.
 
9:16 AM
we should also welcome those that aren't likeminded
 
Well, they had to find it first.
 
... does the chat not scroll for anyone else?
 
@Bart WFM
 
@Bart intermitent
I think "safe space" as... suicide helpline?
 
._.
For the second time today... I have no idea how to respond to that. bravo!
 
9:20 AM
apparently I meant "abuse helpline", but that doesn't click either
 
AA meeting might be apt here, least somewhere in between what I am thinking and what tink is thinking.
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, potentially bad keyword in answer, toxic answer detected: How To Get Wifi Password With Connecting via ethernet cable by James on raspberrypi.SE
 
9:36 AM
@JourneymanGeek AA is an American thing for alcohol addicts meetings, right?
 
that's not really what I see the words 'safe space' used for. I think I'll have to read up on what safe spaces are meant to be vs. how they are used
 
I don't think I was meaning an automobile association
Oh in the sense of "people who are similar, in a space where they feel free to talk"
 
because I think I've seen a discrepancy between what people here are seeing as a safe space and how I see people demanding safe space.
 
I didn't have a specific definition in mind - just what I thought of it
 
9:39 AM
@JourneymanGeek Yeah, I guess that's where the conversation becomes hard :P I don't have a specific definition at hand either, just what I've seen and my thoughts on it ;)
 
Well, I think that's a useful point of reference too.
 
It may be, but it does complicate the conversation ;)
 
Well, it might be nice to reframe that in terms of SE and chat
to me a properly "safe space" chat is where people will speak up (and are not afraid to) if someone crosses the line. At the same time the goal of this isn't to shut down conversation.
We're basically sharing experiences instead, and letting someone know why those lines are there.
On the other hand. well, there's a risk of dogpiling, which we need to be mindful of too.
 
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9:43 AM
In a sense - safe spaces are where other folks go "Hey, what I say may impact another user negatively. I should consider what I say" over fear of punishment, or an attempt to push a certain point of view
I mean, once in a while we are going to have to throw someone out of a plate glass window... (metaphorically speaking)
But tying a community together as people works better to me than fear of force.
 
@JourneymanGeek And that's what I find difficult to moderate sometimes ;) Because it's way more acceptable to push certain points of view than others, while both may impact someone else negatively. I can't make chat or SE a safe space like that for everyone in that sense... :/
 
Oh, you can't help everyone all the time.
You just deal with what's there ;)
and you're going to lose a few
 
We lost quite a few users who didn't like the "welcome wagon", for instance
 
@JourneymanGeek I know, but it feels really stupid choosing who to help and who not.
Especially if you personally disagree with both sides.
 
Well, as long as its civil, there's nothing wrong with being wrong.
 
9:48 AM
@JourneymanGeek Yeah but sometimes you have two sides being really uncivil about something, and it's more accepted for one side to push their pov than for the other
At that point, it becomes hard to say 'both should stop it'
 
So... you smack them for being uncivil, not the point of view
Sure you can!
 
@Tinkeringbell why? "both of you are approaching this unconstructively; stop"
 
"Ok guys, you're both passionate about this, but I think you guys should cool down and handle this a bit more civily"
I prefer the implied "or else".
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog SE's userbase is pretty diverse. Whether we agree with that or not, the welcome wagon was SE clearly taking a side politically
So a lot of people who aren't comfortable with that left.
 
@Magisch I feel to a certain extent that's a simplification.
 
9:50 AM
yeah, it is
 
And you can agree with the 'intent' of the welcome wagon, and the words, and still feel that effort's not in the right places
Also, there was this great article I read, and lost...
about how how you frame something is really important in convincing people its the right thing.
If you have a good half an hour, this is seriously worth a read medium.com/@ennuid/george-lakoffs-framing-101-7b88e9c91dac I'm politically, eh whatever they all suck . Its not about the politics, its about the "narrative" techniques that he feels they use.
But that's something I point out a lot
the "western" idea of "inclusiveness" is different from mine since, well, I grew up somewhere which is pretty diverse, "Inclusiveness" is "normality" to me.
And the idea of person of colour, I still don't entirely grok ;)
so these things don't work in my frame of reference.
So to someone who feels "new users are flooding the site" - they're not going to like the new COC
 
user194636
@JourneymanGeek Me either. It's a very US-centric term, I believe. Then again, SE is very US-centric so.
 
10:05 AM
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@Mithrandir Maybe I'm just biased on what 'constructively' means in this context. What's clearly unconstructive to me may not seem so to others.
I'm still trying to figure that stuff out ;)
@JourneymanGeek It's actually something I can very much agree with, which also ties in to 'what's contructive and what's not' for me
The words you use and the way you say/phrase things can make or break a discussion/conversation
 
@Tinkeringbell well, constructiveness comes down to tone and intent I guess
 
Add to that a layer of cultural differences on what's "THE WAY" to say/phrase something
and you've got a hot mess
 
@JourneymanGeek tone and intent may be perfectly acceptable some cultures, and perfectly annoying or even offensive in others...
 
10:10 AM
@Tinkeringbell well in this case its the interaction of folks too
and I think there's a certain baseline acceptable value of both
If your intent is, well to spark an arguement, well, I can't see why that's fine.
 
@JourneymanGeek Only if both sides realize there's a difference, and are willing to give and take.
 
SOMETIMES its ok to spark a conversation, but if someone's basically constantly trying to start one on the same subject...
@Tinkeringbell that's the fun part of being a third party. Distance.
 
@JourneymanGeek I kind of imagine "safe space" as "group sharing and counseling", but probably that's only me...
 
@Somewhat the group sharing is an important part there
 
@JourneymanGeek You're not always a third party though. Moderating can't be done from a high and mighty throne, never interacting with 'your subjects' :/
 
10:13 AM
Imagine if you came into a chatroom, and someone immediately started ripping into you for being a newbie, or i donno, a mod.
@Tinkeringbell well, more as someone who knows both people (or one person) and is able to try to have perspective on it
I don't moderate say RA from a throne. Quite the opposite ;)
 
@JourneymanGeek I'm not an all-knowing entity
 
So my perspectives are often screwed up
 
No one's perfect lol.
but you're two steps away from someone elses arguement
I mean, there's been times when I've gone "oh hell, they are not listening and I cannot deal with this"
 
chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7246603#7246603 looks awful out of context? Can we get that star gone?
 
10:18 AM
but a lot of the time, it seems to be enough to remind people that, well, they're losing their temper at each other
done
 
@JourneymanGeek Thanks :)
@JourneymanGeek Oh sure, in the easy cases that's how stuff plays out ;)
 
Well, in the really hard cases, you kick everyone, and they can be mad at you for a while.
Unless that's not an option
At the end of the day though, all we can really do is influence people.
 
@JourneymanGeek or be influenced ...
 
and sometimes it's hard to distinguish between 'should I be influencing or allow myself to be influenced'
 
10:20 AM
Well
it can sometimes not be about the person but the idea
 
@JourneymanGeek Sure, but the question still holds... when are you going to try and influence or be influenced by an idea ;)
 
When it makes sense
 
@JourneymanGeek sense is a hard thing to make in this world ;)
Just the news from today has shown me how ridiculous it is
Bert and Ernie from Sesame Street are apparently homosexual according to the person that wrote their characters (based on his relation to his partner). There have already been two articles written on the subject so far and I don't get why anyone would care all of a sudden about the love life of two dolls...
 
Apparently a new starred message appeared...
 
Yet half the country seems to suddenly care...
 
10:25 AM
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@Somewhat I've never been fond of people starring single messages from longer chains.
So I either have the choice to write longer messages and add every nuance possible in that single message, so that in case it gets starred, everything is there...
but mostly I'm just refraining (myself) from starring anything that's clearly part of a longer discussion
 
I guess I should start welcoming spammer even though they're not like-minded...
 
user194636
They tend not to chat much
 
@Somewhat welcome them with flags
 
@Somewhat Hmmm. See, that's not what we were talking about, nor what I meant to say. Starring single messages from a longer thread/discussion isn't helpful, if just for that
 
10:28 AM
@Tinkeringbell Muppets technically. And that speculation is olllllld
 
user194636
Are there many messages on the star board that aren't part of a longer chain?
 
(Unfortunately I am a sarcastic person)
 
@JourneymanGeek Yeah well, apparantly the speculation has been confirmed by their writer
And uproar!
@PaulWhite Most of what ends up on the starboard seems to be jokes, or witty replies... not discussions taking out of context?
It may just be my personal preferences speaking ;)
 
user194636
Stars are like votes. People use them for all sorts of things. As far as I understand the intended usage, they're for things useful for the transcript, whatever that might mean. An interesting point in a discussion would seem to qualify though.
 
@PaulWhite Yeah, although I personally feel that this isn't an 'interesting point'... and it will come back to bite me if left out of context ;)
 
user194636
10:34 AM
I suppose a room could adopt a policy whereby only xkcd and joke images can be starred.
 
If it's a well reasoned message, sure. Just a random, quite absolutist quote ... I'd never star that as 'interesting'
 
user194636
Well one can't star one's own message so that solves that.
 
@PaulWhite Heh, no, that's not really what I'm after either ;) I've certainly starred 'interesting points'... but they were usually either info about SE that I didn't know yet, or longer messages explaining an interesting point of view ;)
@PaulWhite Yay! I want a way to mark my messages as unstarrable ;) So I can just say what's on my mind, without a risk of someone yanking it out of a larger context
 
now that looks star-tempting...
 
user194636
Presumably the context is always available by following the starred message...?
 
10:37 AM
@PaulWhite In this case I was lucky and there was time left to add the context to the message ;)
 
When it's a light-hearted message/joke, sure that's safe... but for a heavier topic/discussion...
 
user194636
Anyway, I just personally don't find it much of an issue.
 
user194636
My messages get starred out of context all the time in my regular rooms, mostly for comedy value.
 
user194636
Stars come and go fairly quickly.
 
I'll just be more careful myself then, and make sure to not write a series of one-liners when I want to have a nuanced conversation ;)
 
10:40 AM
I meant, how many times "I'm an idiot" have been starred on here...
 
user194636
I've read the past few pages of chat, and I'm still not sure what the "safe spaces" discussion was about, or what conclusion was reached.
 
user194636
@Somewhat Yeah that almost always gets a star in whichever room 🙂
 
@PaulWhite In summary, we figured out that we had different definitions of safe space and went on discussing moderation in other terms
 
@Somewhat running joke
 
I don't think we ever reached a definitive conclusion
 
10:41 AM
@PaulWhite and that we couldn't agree was fine
 
And then it switched to discussing stars...
and recapping the safe-space discussion ;)
 
which might have been our starrers intent ;)
tbh that's kinda the platonic ideal of a chatroom lol
freeflowing chat
 
user194636
For me, so far as "safe space" is a useful term at all (it's becoming a bit of a cliche) it describes a place where people are (and feel like they are) free to discuss allowed topics from whatever angle, so long as they don't violate any rules.
 
I think you a word? reading comprehension failed
 
@PaulWhite which works
but what those rules are is important ;)
 
user194636
10:44 AM
of course, else I would have omitted to mention them
 
and often unwritten
 
user194636
@Somewhat looking for a star? 😉
 
user194636
@JourneymanGeek well no, that doesn't really work
 
I think he miscomprehended ;)
 
I skipped "so far as"
 
10:45 AM
@PaulWhite depends - I've been trying to get semi formal rules on RA for ages for stuff that would trip up a newbie and.... everyone hates it
 
user194636
the specifics might be unwritten (to prevent lawyering) but the covering concepts ought to be in writing
 
user194636
@Somewhat to be fair, it wasn't my best constructed sentence ever
 
We, for example would discourage people from asking questions, but talking about problems is fine.
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog oh, the subtle difference between "be kind" and "(have to) act kind"...
 
whoever linked that blog post, that's dense and a lot to unpack
 
10:48 AM
@Magisch I like those. Unpacking is a fun exercise ;)
 
and regarding "safe place"... it just reminded me of Politics.SE daily drama...
 
politics.se seems to me to be fairly drama free considering the subject matter
 
user194636
@JourneymanGeek Well that's pretty normal, but if it came to it, there ought to be a discussion where that was agreed to, that we could in principle point people who questioned it.
 
@PaulWhite Yeah, you're definitely on Geek's side of the definition of safe space then ;)
Mine is a lot more negative, but it's quite intangible why...
 
user194636
@Tinkeringbell Well it could also mean a place where only (broadly) like-minded people can chat about a very specific topic.
 
user194636
10:50 AM
That no doubt has its uses too.
 
@PaulWhite Still... both those ways of explaining a safe-space don't really hit the negative connotations a safe space has for me.
To me, a safe space is exclusive, rather than inclusive, if that makes sense.
 
depends on what kind of safe space you mean
 
looks like "safe house" instead of "safe space" :S
 
this room is a safe space in that we have checks and balances in place so that discussion will not be disrupted and the people occupying it will not be harassed.
 
(I think I'm starting to spout nonsense, better take a walk for now...)
 
user194636
10:52 AM
@Tinkeringbell Sure, it can work that way. In that sense, I think that sort of safe space would have limited broader usefulness, but that isn't to say it isn't a small net positive anyway.
 
@Somewhat no, a safe house is different again to me, if only because that's a real world thing and safe-space is pretty intangible as a whole to me
 
user194636
...except that any space where only a single viewpoint is allowed is a little worrying in principle
 
This is where it becomes very difficult
Sometimes safe space crosses over into viewpoint discrimination and then you have a echo chamber
 
@PaulWhite ^That's what I was after... It's an echo-chamber, it creates hate or deliberate misunderstandings, it excludes other points of view to an extent where the whole world suddenly is evil...
 
user194636
There's nothing particularly wrong with an echo chamber in itself, but it does sort of depend what happens there, and what it might lead to
 
10:54 AM
The language used within such a safe space deliberately alienates everyone outside of the safe space....
 
user194636
Personally, I prefer to hear multiple sides so I can form a balanced view of my own
 
@PaulWhite Exactly, and from what I've seen people to refer to as safe space that's not what's happening in a safe space.
 
user194636
@Tinkeringbell That's certainly a risk, but I don't know that it is necessarily always the case i.e. inevitable
 
@Tinkeringbell IPS has tendencies of that on occasion
Have you ever tried to empathize with the experience for instance a very conservative person would have on IPS?
 
@Magisch Hey, I wrote that question on Dutch social policing...
 
user194636
10:56 AM
@Tinkeringbell As I understand it, there are times when people need a unipolar place to get confident enough to then go on to participate in places with more diverse viewpoints.
 
I have other questions I could ask but haven't, because I would be the conservative person in such cases.
 
user194636
So long as there aren't any negative outcomes, I don't have a problem with such spaces at all.
 
@PaulWhite Yeah, and that's not what people use safe space for in my experience :/
That's usually just called a group, or organisation... 'belangenbehartigers'
 
user194636
@Tinkeringbell Then it boils down to actual outcome (which can be moderated) rather than some vague fear of what might happen at some point.
 
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10:58 AM
@Tinkeringbell You have to admit, IPS is a pretty radically progressive site
 
user194636
I do believe there is a tendency for long-running single-viewpoint areas to become more extreme over time.
 
@PaulWhite oh, not use a safe space for, but people don't refer to such environments as a 'safe space' ...
 
We are what hardline conservatives warn their supporters about happens when you allow progressives to take over
 
At least, I've never heard the words used to designate such a space
 
or even middle of the line conservatives
It naturally happened that way because of user demographics, but still :p
 

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