Tavern on the Meta

user298438

12:00 AM

oh

πάντα ῥεῖ

12:14 AM

I am not so sure why this was downvoted. I've even given evidence (for those mods who are able to see it) — πάντα ῥεῖ 13 secs ago

user298438

12:50 AM

16

Q: Why does using Google Translate to translate something into another language and then back into English does not result in the original text?

I translated "How to use Web?", but after I translated the result back into English, it is not the same as the first text I put in.

πάντα ῥεῖ

1:00 AM

??

user298438

1:15 AM

@πάνταῥεῖ Please stop adding "??" to chat.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Please stop click bait promotion of yourself at MSE chat for completely irrelevant things.

pkpnd

I'm looking for opinions on the Be Nice policy. Suppose person A posts the comment "Then you should throw that book out. The author doesn't understand what he's talking about." where "book" refers to "Cracking The Coding Interview". Person B replies with "We should throw your answer out. [explanation of why B thinks A's statements are incorrect]". Did either of these users violate the Be Nice policy?

Catija

1:41 AM

@pkpnd They sound sort of argumentative. I'd probably flag them as No longer needed rather than r/a. Is this on Workplace?

pkpnd

@Catija It's on regular StackOverflow. And I thought "No longer needed" is the wrong option because the technical correctness of the answer is being discussed.

Catija

Link?

Shog9

@pkpnd the second is DEFINITELY rude. The first... I'd have to see it in context, but probably rude.

Journeyman Geek

That feels kind of off topic. Also comments are not really meant for discussion

Somewhat Memorable Name

ugh morning

Journeyman Geek

1:45 AM

And lol if I wasn't half asleep I would have said something about context

Shog9

I'd flag 'em both & write something to the effect of,

> this book has a bad reputation for many good reasons, including those suggested here in this answer. Of course, you should make your own decisions - sometimes bad situations call for bad advice. Consider this all just an aid to help you make an informed decision.

Catija

It's rude... yeah... I don't disagree with that but I also don't know how successful a r/a flag would be... I've had several of them declined for worse.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Still awake (that counts for "morning" as well IMO)

pkpnd

@Shog9 Thanks for the opinion. Spoiler: the second was me, I deleted the comment. At first I thought it was fine because it's just using their words, but I had second thoughts.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Hmm, realizing you should throw fomefing like a 30-50 dollar thingy to teh bin, isn't fun.

Rudeness, I am not really fure thinking that to the end ...

Somewhat Memorable Name

1:51 AM

Yeah, we have been there... mimicking someone's abrasive comment. Usually doesn't end well...

pkpnd

@SomewhatMemorableName (It really didn't end well.)

Catija

You probably should have backed off a lot sooner... at the very least after he said this:

@pkpnd I posted the god damn code. Can't get any more clear than that. I'm done arguing with stupid. — Gabe Sechan 59 mins ago

Which I have flagged... by the way.

πάντα ῥεῖ

That's clearly rude, while wearing a tee "I am with stupid =>" is just funny, and mostly well accepted for couples and relations.

pkpnd

Yeah I suppose, but I really don't like technical incorrectness getting by. I've removed my reply to that comment, since it didn't add anything technical.

Catija

@pkpnd The edit to that answer should not be there, either. People can not trash other users in their posts. I've suggested an edit to remove that part of the answer but I have no SO rep to fix it really... Next time, if it gets to that point, back away and do something else. The answer is downvoted already, you've said your thing. No need to drag it out.

Once someone gets entrenched, you have to move on. They're not going to change their PoV.

Let your first comment or two stand and trust that others will read them and see the score of the post.

πάντα ῥεῖ

2:09 AM

@Catija but I have no SO rep to fix it really... Network wide competences regarding the basic rules of conduct should be established.

That kind of stuff doesn't really need competence about the factual context.

Catija

Eh, but you shouldn't trust me to fix code formatting. :P Plus, it gives me a way to earn the rep I need to DV on MSO... which I'm only six points shy of at the moment... and one more approve vote will get me a third of the way there.

Anyway, that's what the association bonus is.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Code formatting is easy in most of the cases: CTRL-K

Python might appear as a special case.

Catija

I wouldn't know what it should be, though.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Well, you might need to have some training to format brainfuck code as well :3

Catija

eeesh.

πάντα ῥεῖ

2:13 AM

;)

Catija

Well, that problem is fixed now. :D

Somewhat Memorable Name

Thanks, SO mod!

Catija

Bhargav's good people. :D

pkpnd

But now that the answer is locked (and comments hidden), others can't see why the answer is wrong..

Catija

Well, no one can vote on it, either... so the answer will stick at -2 until the lock releases (they're sometimes timed, not sure what he set it for)... At this point, you've done what you can. I know XKCD is a big influencer but it's time to go to bed, if you will ;)

Somewhat Memorable Name

2:24 AM

Until the question has a positive score, I would say it's not a problem...

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Catija @Bhargav's a crazy diamond!

They'll probably know what I am referring to

Catija

Well, he's not pingable in here, anyway, so he may never know.

... three of my last four messages start with "Well,"... I may have a tic.

πάντα ῥεῖ

I've got them following me at twitter, maybe I should repeat there

Somewhat Memorable Name

Well, it's convenient to start a sentence with "well"...

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SomewhatMemorableName Well, sure!

@BhargavHS https://chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7040847#7040847

Tweeted by GntherMakulik on June 20, 2018 at 2:27 AM

Works

@GntherMakulik Thanks for that! We all are crazy diamonds 😉

Tweeted by BhargavHS on June 20, 2018 at 2:27 AM in reply to GntherMakulik

Shine on!

@Catija Well, "well" is just a well accepted filler to give you an introductory time to form some reasonable and comprehensible sentence. I've got a colleague who starts literally every sentence with "quasi", should I take them serious? I've filed that being a tic, and I am well experienced with tourette people coming up with way worse wording behaviors.

Catija

2:44 AM

When I'm typing, though, I don't need "filler". :P I've spent x amount of time drafting the message and then posting... it's sort of a residual filler to attempt to replicate speech patterns in a written situation... which, I suppose, since this is called "chat", makes sense. Much of the fluff added to messages here is such filler.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Well, it's much like natural speech behaviors when chatting.

Catija

It's sort of like skeuomorphism... but with language.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Catija Sort of, yes. But it's our wetware, not software ;-)

And I am even not a native English speaker.

Somewhat Memorable Name

Filler? I've been thinking for more than 15 minutes to compose a suitable chat message. In the end, I only wrote "Well..."

πάντα ῥεῖ

You'd be surprised what I am able to express with my native idiom (Bavarian).

@SomewhatMemorableName So the conclusion ends up in dots?

Somewhat Memorable Name

2:53 AM

I like subtlety :)

πάντα ῥεῖ

Bastscho!

Wetware is still incredibly flexible compared to stupid software.

Rudy Rucker knew that well decades ago!

Not to mention that software is still mostly driven from wetware.

AI is a myth ...

Turing tests can be screwed up frequently and badly just using Bavarian language for conversation :3

Somewhat Memorable Name

AI-powered body language

πάντα ῥεῖ

Goes straight for playing the Theremin and producing harmonic (whatever this is considered) structures ;)

If we would really get able to export our wetware's powers to AI in a reasonable way, I'd suspect it would still just suffer from the deficiencies (regarding performance, false positives or false negatives) we already experience. And I am not sure that quantum computers might get to be more efficient, because IMO we are kinda quantum computers already.

Probably something to discuss with Grady Booch, Noam Chomsky or any other of these guys.

You can consider Computer Programs being specialized idiots, or like autistic savants.

It'll be a hard job to simply love them, because of the lack of feedback.

I myself suffer a bit from an Asperger/Spectrum syndrome, and always been lucky in gaming :3

I know those games' numbers :P

Catija

3:52 AM

Mods can migrate stuff to meta if the OP doesn't have the five rep, right?

Shog9

yep

so can ordinary voters

Catija

So y'all can migrate stuff from MSE to metas, too?

Shog9

sure

usually don't, but occasionally it's useful

occasionally I even remember to select the meta site instead of the main site in the "migrate to" list.

Catija

Har har har.

Shog9

...oh if only I were joking...

Catija

4:02 AM

Oh, I'm pretty sure that I've seen the results of that.

Well, do what you wish with the one I flagged... not sure it's worth migrating but we're willing to take it if you want to.

Or animuson can.

Whatever.

rene

5:31 AM

→ 11 messages moved to Chimney

SmokeDetector

6:07 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in title: Which is the best SEO Company in delhi? by chamksam on askubuntu.com

SmokeDetector

6:57 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer: What are advantages/disadvantages to use a CC-license for your writings? by Bhavya wisdom on writing.SE

Derpy

8:02 AM

@YvetteColomb Just saw your post. I don't know if I should laugh or cry.

You basically summed up years of my "rants" about the be-nice problem-that-should-not-exist and.... your post is getting downvoted.

Somewhat Memorable Name

2

Q: What can we do to encourage (or discourage) a second question?

This question is mostly an excuse for sharing some research I've been doing. It essentially replicates the data Shog gathered a few years ago. I think the results suggest some systematic and social solutions to our ongoing problems with question quality on Stack Overflow (and increasingly other l...

discussion stackoverflow comments new-users

I almost fall off my chair when I thought there's an ad in the middle of a post(!)

Magisch

@Derpy I'm curious and interested, do you have a link?

@JourneymanGeek snuggle motivated

Derpy

-8

Q: Why do people persist in complaining about the code of conduct set for this network?

TL;DR: With so many platforms that provide chat rooms for people that can be made private, why do people persist in complaining about the code of conduct set for this network? This post is for anyone using or interested in using these sites. Whether they actively participate or passively sear...

discussion stackexchange scope behavior be-nice-policy

Magisch

I have a feeling these days people are still salty yvette won on SO and every meta post she makes gets extra downvotes due to that

Might be just an unfounded assumption but still

Derpy

@Magisch they are salty about this.

please notice that while the first line is pure nonsense...

The second one in the TRUTH

but somehow it seems people don't like that simple truth, ie that they don't own the site and they don't get the final word on how the staff want to moderate it

Journeyman Geek

8:18 AM

@Derpy TBH I think chat moderation on macro scale is mess

Somewhat Memorable Name

I'm not salty, but the way she presents the meta posts was usually not really diplomatic, but rather confrontational... where she almost always acknowledged it on the comment (e.g. "please edit the post if the wording can be improved")

Magisch

I mean yeah, confrontational wording is kind of her style

don't mean you have to take it personally though

Somewhat Memorable Name

> If you want to be here, stay; and if you want to leave, please don't come back. -- physics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/10675/…

Journeyman Geek

As I mentioned - no one ever likes being told they are wrong

Magisch

This holds true for your average forum user, but I think your average stack user can deal with criticism with a little more nuance

might be naive to assume that

Journeyman Geek

8:22 AM

It is

Somewhat Memorable Name

> A funny effect of the recent push to be nice is... some of my users are worried if they'd get penalised for the occational use of language - something we're effectively handled without punitative measures.

I like that statement.

Magisch

punitative measures - puns can and will be used against you

your PUNishment is coming

Somewhat Memorable Name

swoosh!

But yeah, after that blog post: rude users could change their behavior into better one (the one SE wanted). But some of existing non-problematic users also got worried if their behavior is also considered rude.

user310756

@Derpy yep I hear ya

Magisch

@YvetteColomb You could use an alternate strategy to win people over when doing chat moderation

Post foal pics to interrupt problematic conversations and shift the topic :D

user310756

8:30 AM

Magisch

(only half joking, journeyman does that to great effect with dog pics)

Somewhat Memorable Name

@SomewhatMemorableName Until "doing nothing is the best action".

user310756

@Magisch she is still touch and go, so I'm sharing her

Somewhat Memorable Name

Yeah... we missed cute animal pics :(

Magisch

I suspect foal play !

user310756

8:31 AM

I slept on a floor with hay and that baby last night

Somewhat Memorable Name

Let's start over with this...

user310756

lol

user310756

if anyone prays or whatever, pls do for our baby foal.

Journeyman Geek

@YvetteColomb will do

I'll ask my mom. I take a very conan approach to religion

Magisch

@YvetteColomb I'm not religious but I hope your foal will be ok :)

user310756

8:52 AM

@JourneymanGeek please d

user310756

@Magisch thanks

user310756

I'll pop in again tomorrow

user310756

going back to mum and baby soon

rene

Are custom flags marked helpful if the post is deleted by their owner? Or are custom flags always cleared by a mod?

Magisch

@rene custom flags never auto clean

always a mod

Derpy

8:54 AM

@SomewhatMemorableName maybe. But after about... 5 years? of repeating the same old concept even I sm starting to believe that perhaps some users aren't interested in friendship. In which case... maybe a chat room isn't the best place to hang in?

rene

@Magisch awesome, thanks

Derpy

once again

Magisch

@Derpy Nobody is obligated to be friendly though, just civil and not rude

Derpy

> The magic of friendship doesn't just exist in Equestria. It's everywhere. You can seek it out, or you can forever be alone. The choice is yours.

Magisch

There are more then a few people on here who absolutely hate my guts but that's not a problem unless they act on it

Somewhat Memorable Name

8:59 AM

@Derpy Uhh.... not sure about SE chat for friendship, at least not me. I respect many SE users & chatters, but I don't think they're considered... friends?

Magisch

I like a lot of people here but I can't really name anyone who I'd consider a friend

to start with only one person on the entire network even knows my real name

Derpy

it depends on the definition of friendly.

Somewhat Memorable Name

we are friendly, but we're not friends :/

Magisch

I have like 4 friends in total even though I like most people I meet

rene

Is this red-flagable?

Magisch

9:06 AM

comments dont have red flags

(I know splitting hairs)

I'd say it's nln

Derpy

To be fair, I expect that my definition of friendly is somehow close to what @Magisch meant by be civil and not rude. That said, what really changes is the underlying feeling.

Somewhat Memorable Name

@rene waffles gone

Magisch

being friends with someone is a really high bar for me

Derpy

To me the "be civil and not rude" thing somehow implies you behave that way because "social convention" requires you to, not because you want to.

and if that is the case.... being friendly because you are forced... is just not right.

Magisch

@Derpy If we dispense with pretense for a second, a lot of people here and elsewhere aren't nice because they want to be, but because the social consequences for not being so are not worth it.

I'm not universally exempting myself from that.

I've had situations here where I just wanted to cuss someone out

rene

9:09 AM

@Magisch yes, you know that doesn't help your popularity ;)

Magisch

I should split petals instead

rene

true

Derpy

@Magisch bingo. And that is we - not just the SE users but the world users too - will never get anywhere with those be-nice things.

Somewhat Memorable Name

@Magisch r00d :O

Magisch

I think social consequences work well for keeping people in check

Derpy

9:11 AM

@Magisch they do? Murders, terrorism, thievery... all seem pretty common to me.

Magisch

consider the world without

Somewhat Memorable Name

Hmmm... "friendly" in that sense, huh..

Magisch

I doubt even a tenth of a tenth of a percent of all people who have ever wanted to just kill someone have actually gone through with it

Derpy

@Magisch oh, it would be worse yep, but that doesn't mean that is the solution. That is only the workaround because we aren't smart enough to.. just leave peacefully.

Magisch

Ideally you'd like people to be moral because of empathy but that's ... unreliable

Somewhat Memorable Name

9:13 AM

My behaviors when being friendly with others (my close friends) are certainly different from being friendly on here...

I could make offensive joke while being friendly with them

Magisch

Same. For one some of the jokes I crack with friends would be flaggable material here

Derpy

not really thinking that was the main point here, but I get what you are saying.

Somewhat Memorable Name

Yeah, I focused on the wrong point :x

Derpy

9:31 AM

my point was that right now many users don't seem to have understood why it would be desirable to be nice... but only that they have to otherwise the staff will smite them

Magisch

Most people want to be nice to people they have a friendly disposition to

towards all others the niceness is directly proportional to the severity of the social consequences of not being so

Somewhat Memorable Name

> I removed your post. We want people to be nice. That means you can't criticize other peoples crafts. -- Does it go against netiquette to give constructive feedback on Facebook?

(as have been posted by Shog here before)

Derpy

@SomewhatMemorableName I suggest watching "It Ain't Easy Being Breezies".

Journeyman Geek

I totally misread that ;p

Magisch

9:47 AM

I think the world would be nicer if everyone had a yorkshire terrier or schnautzer dog

Journeyman Geek

Yes ;p

Magisch

everyone would be too happy and preoccupied with the dogs to harbor ill will for long

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch Meh, everyone I hate will eventually die... possibly of extreme natural old age.

Magisch

so will you though

Journeyman Geek

I WILL NEVER LIVE TO REGRET IT!

Magisch

9:49 AM

hate is a strong word though. I don't even think I know someone who is worth that kind of emotional investment from me atm

Journeyman Geek

oh

Someone I mildly dislike died?

Magisch

even my abusive stepmother is more of a pity situation since hate requires emotional work

Somewhat Memorable Name

Keep hating and move on...

ahorn

Adblock is blocking adverts on SE, even though it's disabled on these sites. I've restarted, uninstalled and re-installed, but that did not work. Is this question off-topic on the main site?

Somewhat Memorable Name

@ahorn are you sure it's not because of "see reduced ads" privilege?

Btw, that question is related to AdBlock development which I'm not sure SE can help other than "ask the developer to fix the filter/logic"

ahorn

10:02 AM

@SomewhatMemorableName I don't have enough reputation on the sites I found the problem on, but thanks for that info

SmokeDetector

10:30 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Non-Latin link in answer: What advantages do students have who learn how to touch type? by มลิวรรณ ทองมี on cseducators.SE

rene

11:00 AM

In this screenshot it shows a custom comment flag. What does a no-longer-needed and a r/a flag look like? Is that similar? And is that screenshot when a mod visits a post or is that the comment mod-flag-queue?

Mithrandir

@rene That's the flag queue

rene

Okay. Thanks

Mgetz

12:02 PM

Whelp the EU voted to break the internet

SmokeDetector

12:15 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer: Mount Sandisk Cruzer 2.0 by Webex computer on askubuntu.com

Shadow Wizard

@Mgetz TL;DR?

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard basically the EU is a few steps away from de-facto banning all user created content on the internet via requiring sites such as stack to have automated and perfect copyright filters and penalizing them severely if they don't

given that google can't get this right on youtube it basically means that user created content will be dead in the EU

The irony is that the independent artists and musicians that the bill is supposed to help will be the ones most hurt by it because they will get no exposure if it passes unless they go through traditional content gatekeepers (which is what the gatekeepers want)

18

Q: New EU copyright laws to be voted on 20th June 2018

The European Parliament JURI committee will be voting on 20th June on reforms of the EU copyright laws (full law proposal). According to a Creative Commons article titled 'Act now to stop the EU’s plan to censor the web': The final copyright directive will have deep and lasting effects on the...

discussion legal licensing copyright creative-commons

Shadow Wizard

@ahorn SE isn't serving the ads themselves, they're using external host. You should white list doubleclick.net domain in order to the ads to show, as far as I can tell.

Shadow Wizard

12:47 PM

@Mgetz huh. That's... silly, stupid, terrible, and horrible. o_O

Mgetz

@ShadowWizard welcome to legacy content providers, it's all about preserving their revenues at the cost of everybody else

Derpy

@Mgetz once again, that small clip from Adventure Time I once posted proves it inherent truth.

Mgetz

@Derpy did not see, apologies

Derpy

Jan 11 at 9:17, by Derpy

@TelautonomousKitty still claiming that the Adventure Time clip with Jake explaining how laws came into existence is pretty on topic. But I won't link it after someone comments from the last time I did..

ask @ShadowWizard...

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: Is generic Cialis (Tadalafil) equivalent to Cialis? by JameyForester on health.SE

SmokeDetector

1:14 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: Should I lose weight? by JameyForester on health.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: Is generic Cialis (Tadalafil) equivalent to Cialis? by JameyForester on health.SE

πάντα ῥεῖ

1:31 PM

@SmokeDetector tpu-

Shadow Wizard

!!/report health.stackexchange.com/a/16648/45 spammy link

SmokeDetector

Post 1: That does not look like a valid post URL.
Post 3: That does not look like a valid post URL.

Shadow Wizard

huh?

Smokey borked? :/

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (batch report: post 2 out of 3): Is generic Cialis (Tadalafil) equivalent to Cialis? by JameyForester on health.SE

Magisch

@SmokeDetector k

Shadow Wizard

3:01 PM

good, the Health troll is nuked.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Sha Thank you for your explanation at my answer to Tim's post. But how are 6 years of experience with SO not relevant?

Derpy

@ShadowWizard I think that trolls nuking works like Pacman's ghosts.

They get turned in a pair of floating eyes, wait for a bit in a cave somewhere and then regenerate again in the world.

Basically, trolls respawn

πάντα ῥεῖ

It's a never ending game yes :3

That's what's making it "fun"

Feeds

The Hertzsprung-Russell diagram is located in its own lower right corner, unless you're viewing it on an unusually big screen.

Derpy

@πάνταῥεῖ Dwarf's definition of Fun I suppose...

πάντα ῥεῖ

3:14 PM

No there's dwarfs bread for that

Shadow Wizard

@πάνταῥεῖ relevant for you, sure, but don't think all those details are needed in the answer.

πάντα ῥεῖ

OK

Derpy

@πάνταῥεῖ dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2014:Losing

πάντα ῥεῖ

wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Dwarf_Bread

Derpy

Maud favorite bread brand.

πάντα ῥεῖ

3:23 PM

> Maud (approximately pronounced "mawd" in English), is an Old German feminine given name meaning "powerful battler".

SmokeDetector

3:44 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly dots in answer: PHP ¿Como contar la cantidad de Arrays? by ErnestoJH on es.stackoverflow.com

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in body: What is the best tool for leveling boards? by H. Adams on woodworking.SE

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SmokeDetector k

Somewhat Memorable Name

I...

Somewhat Memorable Name

4:24 PM

good night!

πάντα ῥεῖ

chrrrrrr ....

SmokeDetector

4:51 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: Mostrar pdf con php by ErnestoJH on es.stackoverflow.com

πάντα ῥεῖ

5:10 PM

@SmokeDetector naa-

My Spanish is poor, but good enough to spot that :3

Thomas Ward

5:49 PM

!!/location

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Jon's data analysis is quite interesting:

15

Q: What can we do to encourage (or discourage) a second question?

This question is mostly an excuse for sharing some research I've been doing. It essentially replicates the data Shog gathered a few years ago. I think the results suggest some systematic and social solutions to our ongoing problems with question quality on Stack Overflow (and increasingly other l...

discussion stackoverflow comments new-users

!!/coffee Thomas

SmokeDetector

@πάνταῥεῖ brews a cup of Latte for @Thomas

@πάνταῥεῖ brews a cup of Espresso for @Thomas

πάντα ῥεῖ

SD runs at two locations currently active?

Thomas Ward

@πάνταῥεῖ we're aware of the problem, it's supposed to only have one active

i restored my instance at the same time as someone else spun up a secondary instance

πάντα ῥεῖ

Sure

Thomas Ward

5:56 PM

!!/location

SmokeDetector

@ThomasWard Mithrandir/Tauremornalómë

πάντα ῥεῖ

@ThomasWard Blame it for the Singleton design pattern used ;)

Mgetz

@πάνταῥεῖ SD really wants to get Thomas jittery

Catija

> An exception is if an answer is deleted from Low Quality review queue by "Recommend Deletion" reviews, without three trusted users voting to delete, then it can be undeleted by the author.

Optimus Prime

5

Q: Coworker demands immediate assistance when having computer trouble

I'm a developer at an agency and there is a photographer who works in office. She often has trouble with her computer, accounts, the internet, etc. so she comes to me when she needs assistance with things such as clearing cached files when she needs more space, downloading files, finding a file ...

developer helping expectations

I think she has a crush on him(op)

Catija

6:05 PM

Why is this an exception? Why should someone be able to unilaterally undelete something that 6 members of the community thinks is bad?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@OptimusPrime LOL!

Optimus Prime

@Catija I think it's not possible. The author can cast a vote

Catija

@OptimusPrime No. It's absolutely possible... it just happened on one of the sites I mod.

283

A: How does deleting work? What can cause a post to be deleted, and what does that actually mean? What are the criteria for deletion?

How can a post be deleted? By a user: The author can typically delete their own posts at will; for exceptions, see When can't I delete my own post? below. To delete a post, just use the delete link below it. Moderators can delete any post instantly. Users with reputation ≥ 2k (more precisely, ...

Optimus Prime

@Catija didn't knew about that. But FMPOV it is a design flaw

don't know what SO team thinks

πάντα ῥεῖ

@OptimusPrime If you're looking at the employee list of our company, you'll find those paired last names all the time :3 (not to mention that there are more, just not married (yet))

I am watching out for new female employees all the time. But most of the time they're simply too young for me.

Optimus Prime

6:19 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ lol

Catija

18

A: Answers deleted via Recommend Deletion votes in review should not be undeletable by the answerer

Jarrod has implemented animuson's suggestion: Now that we have that new "disputed low quality review" flag, can we use it for this purpose? The OP undeleting their answer is like disputing the reviewers, so whenever this happens, why not raise an auto-flag so that a moderator can take a peek ...

So, apparently it's too infrequent to do anything more about than just flag it for moderator attention...

Optimus Prime

status-completed

Catija

Yeah... but the completed part is that they raise an autoflag... not that they've actually implemented the change that was requested.

πάντα ῥεῖ

XY problemz?

Catija

So, really it's [status-we-did-something-else-that -doesn't-really-address-your-concerns-and-makes-more-work-for-mods]

Optimus Prime

6:28 PM

hmm?

But I think it doesn't occur always. From Shog's points, it is not an important thing to spent money and effort

Catija

I'm not saying it does occur often... but I'm guessing that at least part of why it doesn't happen often is because we don't tell people when their posts are deleted. If we did, they'd know to go back and they'd see the "undelete" button there.

ɥʇǝS

@Catija I've seen several times where the OP edits their post into something acceptable and then undelete it themselves.

Catija

@ɥʇǝS And that's great... but that sort of argues for making the edit required before the ability to undelete... just to add a little friction.

Optimus Prime

@Catija still they may notice change in internet points

ɥʇǝS

Meh. At some point you can't feature away exceptions and thus the need for human exception handlers.

I've maybe seen 10 of those flags ever.

There's also no transparent way to implement that without having users just edit "meh" into the post and then undelete it

Catija

6:34 PM

Right, but if a mod deletes it, it takes a mod to undelete it now...

I don't care if their undelete vote counts as one of three... but why is it unilateral?

πάντα ῥεῖ

Because eeer, Mods have Mod powers :-P

Shog9

the "mod delete locks undeletion" behavior is almost unnecessary at this point; there's one little edge-case that kinda still requires it, and it's an important edge-case... But we should probably just fix that edge case and drop the mod-deletion behavior.

Catija

Undeletes don't even bump the post... which means no one other than a mod will see it.

@Shog9 I could get behind that. I'm tired of telling people to flag stuff if they edit it to improve because that's the only path forward for them.

Or, just give mods a choice... "lock this deletion" tick box instead of default.

Shog9

well... Mods already have the option to lock

the "mod delete locks undeletion" behavior was added as a lazy way of blocking author undeletion

Catija

... can we lock a deleted post?

Shog9

6:39 PM

but, we've since fixed that by simply requiring threshold undelete votes if not deleted by the person voting to undelete.

that just leaves cases where mods are deleting stuff that must not ever be undeleted

which are very rare indeed

Catija

except in this weird edge case... which was "fixed" after the three trusted user undelete things...

Shog9

?

Catija

@ɥʇǝS But editing bumps it on the activity page.

Letting users undelete their own posts after six people said it should be deleted.

Shog9

Oh. I love that behavior

Catija

Why? That's what I'm missing... what benefit does it have?

Shog9

6:43 PM

Critically it's "six people" not "six trusted users"

Catija

Well, 5 people casting close votes can keep a question closed over the OP deciding it should be reopened... how is this different?

The OP gets to be one voice in that discussion, but they don't get to override all five of them.

Shog9

It's essentially a weak deletion. There's no technical reason why most of the answers should stay deleted, but in practice most of them do because they were only ever posted because the authors didn't know any better.

Catija

... and we don't tell them when their answer was deleted... so half of them probably never even notice.

Shog9

At the same time, it allows us to be a lot more strict than we could be otherwise, as there's an easy path out if we make a mistake.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Most use cases new users delete their own posts seem to be not to "loose face" in the public, so what?

Shog9

6:46 PM

@Catija sure we do. That's why review has canned comments

Catija

@πάνταῥεῖ We're not talking about users deleting their own posts...

πάντα ῥεῖ

I know that

Catija

@Shog9 Which I rarely see used.

Shog9

Users do delete their own posts though. More than anyone else does

Catija

But ... that's irrelevant to this discussion...

πάντα ῥεῖ

6:48 PM

No it isn't really, that was my point

ɥʇǝS

@Catija wat. On Ask Ubuntu everyone uses them.. which is just as bad if not worse because now there are 3 comments saying pretty much the same thing..

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Catija

@Servy Well, they usually come back to these (if still attending), after they got question banned :3 — πάντα ῥεῖ 49 mins ago

Catija

... not on IPS... no one uses them... largely because the deletion reasons in those defaults are irrelevant to IPS.

... and I've personally rarely used them on any of the sites I use because, again, they don't fit. On AU, they fit because it's a technical site... I don't use technical sites.

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