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2:00 PM
Charcoal still harasses spammers though
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ hmm.... @forest appear to know thing or two about such things. @forest do you know of a VPN that still woks in Iran? :)
 
And Journey has offended me at least once: He didn't like celery.
Whoops, too much slacking off
 
@AnneDaunted and now to fix all the .... ;)
 
Ciao, back to studying
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ good luck!
 
2:03 PM
@ShadowWizard Burninate that, too? All 152 questions? Sonic will do that, on the next weekend ;-)
 
@AnneDaunted no no... just fix. :D
 
lol
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ :/ I do not
 
@JourneymanGeek Then you were the tomato hater? So. Not. Inclusive.
 
naw
that's tink
 
Dec 2 at 13:17, by Journeyman Geek
@Tinkeringbell hates tomato. I don't particularly like celery.
How dare you not like celery?! :P
 
2:06 PM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ 'TheTomatoHater'. Cool. That sounds like some kind of supervillain :P
 
@Tinkeringbell so we won't see you in such outfit in halloween? :(
 
@ShadowWizard Actually... Ketchup contains so much sugar I can eat that ;)
 
2:11 PM
Just like the tomato soup from the Chinese restaurant.
 
hah
with pears?
 
But usually tomatoes leave this nasty sour taste in my mouth :P
@JourneymanGeek Doesn't sound too bad, really ;)
 
Actually in Israel the authorities forced a company to change the name from "ketchup" to "tomato sauce" due to not enough tomatoes in the product. lol
 
wait what?
 
@ShadowWizard thank you for reminding me of that old Kikkoman fan animation I worked so hard to forget about.
 
2:12 PM
@Tinkeringbell I know the sour taste in tomato soup, but I rather like it. :)
 
@ShadowWizard Huh? I would've done that the other way round ;)
 
@Tinkeringbell Israel got things upside down sometimes... ketchup is defined as something with at least 40% tomatoes in it, while "tomato sauce" can have 0% since it's just a name without formal meaning.
 
Like drinks... "soft orange juice" can have 0% oranges in it.
 
or just do the american thing and go "product"
 
2:15 PM
When it comes to "Orange Nectar", law enforce the company to have some percent of fruit in there.
(still not 100%, think also around 40%)
@Derpy you're welcome! :)
 
@ShadowWizard .... hissing sounds
 
@Tink heh, I was bit wrong. "Seasoning", not "sauce". bbc.com/news/business-34052147
 
@ShadowWizard Have you tried Tor with obfuscated bridges (obfs4proxy)?
 
@ShadowWizard Ahhh, now that makes more sense ;)
 
@forest not for me, it's for @M.A.R. :)
(I expect Tor to be forbidden in Iran)
 
2:18 PM
Iran blocks based on IP list, if I remember correctly, so that should evade it. Alternately, you could have a look at SSH tunnels, or even ICMP/DNS-based firewall bypassing (e.g. with the software iodine), if you don't mind poor speed.
Yeah Tor is blocked in Iran, but that's what bridges are for.
 
They are unlisted Tor relays that use an obfuscated protocol.
 
interesting the political split of SE users seems to be not as clear cut as I initially believed
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ (ping)
Anyway
@Magisch How so?
 
@Tinkeringbell yup, agree. There is also the Tomato paste which I believe must be 100% tomatoes. :)
 
2:20 PM
I was perusing a topic on politics.SE
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ if you need a ssh tunnel I could probably work out something for you
 
there seems to be roughly even support for and against the current US president there
 
@ShadowWizard define 100% :P
 
@Magisch what did you expect?
 
If you squeeze your tomatoes into a paste, some part gets lost... so it's only made of parts of tomatoes ;)
 
2:21 PM
Trump has a lot of support everywhere. It makes sense that SE represented that. Now personally, I like Trump, only because I like seeing the US screw itself over.
 
@ShadowWizard SE is mostly people from tech, and people from tech are like overwhelmingly, super overwhelmingly left leaning
 
Its all tomato, but not all the tomato
 
Hell, SE the company itself probably does not employ a single trump supporter
 
@forest that's assuming a bit of american centricness
and there's a lot of other divides
 
@Magisch you'd be surprised
 
2:22 PM
:D
 
@JourneymanGeek Nah, I think he's good for the world if he helps the US drop out of its position of power.
 
and who you support politically may not have a reflection on your relationship with others.
 
@forest you live in Europe?
 
I was expecting around a 95% - 5% split of american SE users tbh
 
As someone who apparently drifted from what americans consider to be concervative to vaguely libertatian...
 
2:23 PM
@JourneymanGeek exactly!
 
@Magisch For anti vs pro trump?
 
yeah
 
That's quite an assumption.
 
considering the company itself is outspokenly left leaning
 
and most of what we so has no direct baring to politics.
 
2:24 PM
@Magisch Which is a problem for a non-political company.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm left myself (left libertarian).
But politics has no place in SE (outside of Politics.SE).
 
Europe appear to seek someone like Trump now though. People there want chaos.
 
@forest I think its impossible for a company to be non political
 
Or at least that's what our media show.
 
@Magisch Also note that not everyone will write an answer, and (if done correctly) votes on politics reflect quality of the question/correctness of the answer, not a pro-/con- stance ;)
 
@JourneymanGeek There's a difference between staff having political views and a company being outwardly political.
@Tinkeringbell That's one reason I don't like the Politics board.
 
2:25 PM
@forest eh, these days there really isn't
 
@forest more that whether they see their political views to be part of being socially responsible.
 
@Magisch Well that's a problem in my opinion.
 
And a lot of companies arn't socially aware at all
 
might be, but it is reality
 
Facebook clearly dosen't care about its users
 
2:25 PM
everything is political these days
 
Which is a problem since it's all a corporate oligarchy anyway.
 
If you think about it - so's a lot of the recent drama
but in a different way.
 
@JourneymanGeek Facebook cares only about money and keeping its position of power over people, yeah.
 
@ShadowWizard precisely
 
And now Tumblr is falling too.
Lots of social media drama.
 
2:26 PM
tumblr has always been hyper-political
 
@forest it isn't tumblr as much as verizon/oath
 
And now they're going the way of myspace :D
 
Still can't crash and burn as bad a LJ
 
hell google even copped a lot of flak for not firing people fast enough for political viewpoints
 
@Magisch Which is repulsive.
No one should ever be fired for political viewpoints.
 
2:27 PM
@Magisch which feels like a slippery slope on its own
 
@forest eh, it's that freedom of speech / freedom of consequence thing. An employee is always part of the brand image of that company
 
@forest depends what they're doing with those viewpoints, e.g. if they publish a post in Facebook that offend group of people, in the name of what they believe in, it's a cause for being fired IMO.
 
financially it can make a lot of sense to get rid of an employee rather then cop massive negative pr or even a boycott
 
So? As long as they aren't officially representing the company...
 
@Magisch well, If I ever go into politics proper, I'd probably talk to my company first or quit
 
2:28 PM
@Magisch I'm talking about ethics, not business.
The fact that the two are constantly at odds is sad.
 
@ShadowWizard funny thing is I'm more worried about family seeing stuff I mention in public than general folks
 
If someone is known to work at a company and expresses something that offends a lot of people, the implicit expectation is that the company distance itself from that person
 
Business-wise, we got the best AIs in the world (e.g. YouTube's) trying their hardest to convince people that the Earth is flat, since flat Earth videos get a lot more views, which gets a lot more ad clicks.
 
Not doing so quickly and effectively enough is seen as tacit endorsement
 
@Magisch It's a horrible expectation.
 
2:29 PM
@Magisch well, if its a erm...
 
And it has a massive chilling effect.
Yes, it's the right thing to do from a business standpoint.
 
non dysfunctional workplace, its something I'd try to think about hard first
 
That doesn't mean it's not a horrible thing to do.
 
but its cause I'd have some loyalty to my co-workers, and if we're lucky my workplace ;p
 
That's why I'm a contractor :D
 
2:30 PM
horrible from what standpoint?
 
I can say whatever the hell I want and pretty much no one.
 
@forest contracting sucks worse ;p
 
@JourneymanGeek Not in my line of work!
@Magisch From the standpoint of ethics, not business.
 
And while we're busy talking here, off topic questions start to flood MSE.... :P
 
@forest my contract's pretty terrible
 
2:31 PM
There is a prevailing and academically accepted concept that speech itself is in fact harmful if it's certain kinds of publicised speech
 
@Magisch In political journals, which are the least accurate of all.
At least aside from pure sociology.
 
So subscribing to that you can make a convincing case that someone who wrote a horribly offensive post damaged the company reputation in the same way as wearing a company tshirt and punching people would
 
@Magisch I'm not talking about it from a business standpoint.
From a business standpoint, you're absolutely correct.
Where I used to live, it would be a horrible business decision to hire a trans person.
 
I mean yeah but a business has no moral obligation but to maximize profits. It's the paperclip maximizer incarnate. Any semblance of good moral practice has to be dictated by the market to be enforced.
 
Simply because so many people are conservative there.
In fact, at a business I worked with briefly, I had people openly admit to not hire black people (it was freaking surreal how racist they were).
And it was a great business decision where they were.
But ethically, it sucked.
 
2:34 PM
@Magisch actually sometimes... it feels kinda true.
 
But I only care about the ethics, not the business.
(I'm a free speech absolutist)
 
I mean y'all don't know where I work
 
India?
 
If I did, and I said something shocking, I donno, like we should drown all cats.
it would reflect badly on my employer. and chances are would affect me.
more so if it had something to do with my line of work.
 
But it's your moral right to be able to say that if you wish.
Even if your employer may have a good financial reason to fire you.
 
2:36 PM
well, but I'd also need to consider the effect it may have on said employer.
 
Then that's your imperative. But the chilling effect from the employer's reaction is what I have a major problem with. It effectively censors speech.
 
@forest on the other hand, if its clear where the lines are and you're ok with it...
lets say I work for a government contractor, and decided to join the opposition.
I shouldn't be fired for that. if I started slagging off the government....
 
@JourneymanGeek join as become active part of a party is very different than just supporting said party.
 
there's a point at which, well...
 
@forest I find that to be quite illogical
saying everything is allowed absolutely nowhere
 
2:38 PM
@ShadowWizard hence picking the specific example.
 
@Magisch Who said it's legal?
Note also that free speech absolutism is about what you say, not where.
 
@JourneymanGeek This already falls into possible conflict of interests.
 
I'm strongly of the belief that there should be a strong opposition as a counterbalance to a ruling political party, capable of taking over.
 
For example, you can't yell "fire" in a movie theater, but you can post the word "fire" on your blog. The former is simply the wrong place.
 
@ShadowWizard well, my job isn't political at all.
 
2:39 PM
@JourneymanGeek for now... :)
 
unlikely to be ever.
 
@forest for instance, there is no medium where it is appropriate to make personal threats or calls to violence against anyone
 
I do computers.
 
these are speech, but they shouldn't be free
 
@forest same with the "f" word. (unless adult only theater :))
 
2:39 PM
@Magisch I'm not talking about what's legal though.
 
@ShadowWizard actually - that's a conversation we've had a few times.
 
And I think threats should be legally fine in terms of speech. Now, acting on those threats is different, and displaying an intent to act on those threats as well.
 
That basically SE's kinda on the "no swearing please" spectrum, de jure.
 
hard disagree there
 
@JourneymanGeek where?
 
2:40 PM
you can do a lot of damage with words, sometimes more so then with actions
 
So while someone should be legally allowed to utter a threat, they would still be in the moral wrong in their intent to cause someone harm.
 
but practically, we've chosen to act as we need to
@forest someone on SE's staff got a bunch of threats.
 
@Magisch But in the end, you should fight speech with more speech.
 
@JourneymanGeek SE has 13+ people, movie theater can have kids 6 years old.
 
and well, there's a line.
 
2:41 PM
that's idealistic, but unfortunately not realistic often times
 
And being an absolutist, I'm sure you can think of a more extreme example than threats to try to attack my beliefs. :P
 
So, I used to know someone I'd charitably say... was a hothead.
 
e.g bullying can't be undone or combated with more speech
 
He threatened to break someone's knees on the internet.
Now, he probably would have been stuffed in a trashcan if he tried.
but luckily, the person threatened called the FBI
 
@Magisch Bullying isn't illegal.
It's bad, but not illegal.
 
2:42 PM
@forest it is here
can go to prison for years for it
 
Not everything bad should be illegal.
Well that's just stupid.
 
@forest I don't think bullying is defensible in any way.
 
cyberbullying in particular
 
Nor do I.
Cyberbullying in particular is the most harmless kind I can even think of.
 
the court can sentence you to be disallowed from using the internet for north of 20 years too
 
2:42 PM
I mean really, the solution is right up there.
Right in the upper right corner of your window.
 
@forest it is in many countries, just hard to prove most of the times.
 
Has a little [X].
 
@forest people have killed themselves over that
 
that's a naive and reductive view of the issue
 
so, no, I don't think its harmless
 
2:43 PM
Perhaps they should have been raised to have a thicker skin.
Or told to walk away.
 
@forest there's basically two ways to deal with bullies.
 
If someone cyberbullies you in a circle of friends you like to peruse, leaving isn't a good choice
 
The problem with real bullying is that you can't walk away. There's no little [x] in the corner of the screen when two guys are pushing you into a corner irl.
 
and blocking is a post-fact remedy
 
You can try walking away but it dosen't always work.
 
2:44 PM
@forest you reflect your own way of thinking on others, that's the core mistake.
 
after most damage has been done
 
Folks with authority can help and make sure its not fine.
but most places kinda suck for that.
 
@ShadowWizard No, I think people should be taught that they don't have to listen to bullies online. That they can block them, ignore them.
 
Or...
you can basically take the bully apart.
Take away their toys.
make em feel unwelcome.
 
@forest easy to say, but I learned that some people just can't "learn" such a thing.
 
2:45 PM
@ShadowWizard How hard is it to press a little button?
 
Cause the best way to deal with real bullies was to hurt them when they tried.
 
It's not like learning how to fight back in school or defend yourself.
 
@forest cyberbullying doesn't even have to take place with the bullied person being present, think people exchanging nudes/memes/remarks about you without you being aware of it. Clicking an X isn't going to help.
 
@forest You speak in very apparent ignorance of the psychological effects bullying can have
 
@forest as easy as taking a knife out of your body. The damage is already done.
 
2:45 PM
@forest other than that bullies always go for the ones they think are weak
 
@Magisch No, I speak of someone who has experienced real bullying.
 
the already vulnerable ones.
 
Bullying where you can't just get up and walk away.
 
"just walk away" and "just have a thicker skin" do not work
they might, for like one person
everyone is different
 
For "cyber" bullying?
 
2:46 PM
some people can not just walk away. They too have a right to not be bullied.
 
@Magisch Sure, so they can block the bully.
 
@forest so you're "lucky" for being able to take this and get stronger.... others are not as lucky.
 
@forest basically the best way to deal with bullying is to throw them out.
@forest or the community can.
 
@forest chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/7423249#7423249. Walking away isn't really an option if you're unaware of the cyber bullying and it flows over into real life.
 
@JourneymanGeek Sure, that works too.
 
2:46 PM
Which is something that we encourage.
 
@Tinkeringbell If it flows over into real life, it's no longer cyber.
 
So the victim shouldn't have to grow a thicker skin or walk away.
 
If someone actually hurts you irl, that's battery.
 
@forest Nope, then it's still both. So clicking the X or growing a thicker skin aren't options.
 
@forest how you define for example threats via phone call?
 
2:47 PM
@JourneymanGeek But they should know that it's an option.
 
in this digital age, cyberbullying is every bit as real and damaging as real bullying
 
but rather know they arn't alone, and we'll deal with it
 
@forest There's way more things to hurt people in real life. Take it from someone who was quite manipulative when growing up.
 
@forest which is an essential part of community building, management and mentorship
 
@ShadowWizard Depends on if you can block the number. POTS is a little different because you can call from spoofed numbers more easily than on, say, Twitter.
Here's the thing. I've been bullied IRL, and I've been bullied online.
 
2:48 PM
@forest I mean, you consider it cyber or IRL bullying?
 
getting decked in the face is finite in its hurt and potential to hurt
 
cause I've had people try and at least the first few times, its a pain.
 
IRL, I can't do anything without physically fighting or sucking it up and taking it.
 
having someone spread slander about you on the web isnt
 
Online, I can literally just close the window.
 
2:48 PM
@forest assuming its not spread
don't forget, on the internet you have poor information control
 
@JourneymanGeek The internet never forgets etc. I know.
 
something embarassing that happened can both spread rapidly and never go away
so you can't hit the x for everyone.
 
Unless you become the biggest meme out there, 99.9999% of people will never see.
 
or "grow a thicker skin"
 
@forest enough that even couple of people who are important for you will see. No?
 
2:49 PM
@JourneymanGeek If it spreads and enters IRL, then it's IRL bullying.
 
@forest its still on the internet.
 
@ShadowWizard So explain the situation to them. If it's slander, explain it.
 
its still cyberbullying.
 
@JourneymanGeek I mean if it reaches out of the internet, e.g. people in school.
 
sticks and stones ...
 
2:50 PM
If someone in school bullies you because of a post they see on Twitter... then it's no longer cyber bullying, it's simple IRL bullying.
 
@forest again, easier said than done... many times it's impossible to explain after the damage was done.
 
But as someone who's had to deal with bullies and depression ?
the bullies never kill you
you're your worst enemy
 
@ShadowWizard Well then that sucks, but censoring them isn't the option. As soon as you start to censor one group, it's that much easier to censor another, even censoring victims. And yes, that happens even today.
 
so assuming its harmless just cause "its on the internet" seems naive.
 
@forest not talking about censoring, at least not in this case... gave example of cyberbullying causing IRL effects.
 
2:52 PM
@ShadowWizard I consider that to be bullying IRL, not cyber bullying.
If it has happens in meatspace and not cyberspace, it's not cyber.
 
as for censorship - communities can tell people "no, we don't want that"
 
@forest oh, we agree then. Mission completed. :)
 
@JourneymanGeek Sure, I'm talking about what I believe should be law.
 
@forest I think you're literally playing football with the goalposts.
 
I'm a free speech absolutist in that I believe no speech should be banned legally.
@JourneymanGeek No, I mentioned this very early on, didn't I?
 
2:53 PM
"Lets kill all "foo""
 
@forest it's not, but there is no law in social media sites.
 
is fine to you right until until they kill all the foo?
 
Free speech is a legal thing. I never said that individual communities shouldn't be allowed to moderate what they wish.
@JourneymanGeek Yes.
 
by which time, I think many foo will appreciate the protection of freedom of speech.
 
Or, you censor "them", and then when "they" are in power, it's foo that is censored.
 
2:54 PM
but its just as bad if you want to kill the bar
its not who gets killed that's bad, but rather the hate speech in general.
 
Killing (or hurting) is what is bad. Speech isn't.
The best way to fight speech is with more speech.
 
Let's try that... Everyone keep silent now! :D
 
you're basically having the assumption that speech is concequence free.
 
Educate people. If some Nazi is saying the holocaust is a lie and Bush did 9/11 and the Jews are responsible for global warming, then don't ban the speech.
 
actually point. I'm going to bed.
 
2:56 PM
@Tinkeringbell no can do!
 
Educate people so they know that this person is full of it.
 
@JourneymanGeek Sleep well ;)
 
I think I should go too. I'm typing too fast and the chat is starting to block me.
 
@JourneymanGeek Sleep tight!
 
"You can try this again in foo seconds" yeah screw you too chat.
 
2:57 PM
lol
 
I prefer IRC flood thresholds. As long as no one posts more than 5 lines per second, everything's good. Far more liberal there. Of course there's also nickspam there...
 
Chat here is more... basic.
 
quite
 
I prefer it basic to be honest. :)
Don't want all the flashing colors.
 
Well IRC is extremely basic when you get down to it.
Yeah well autoplaying GIFs are allowed here, not on IRC.
IRC is simple enough that I've used telnet to connect to it.
PRIVMSG #tavern-on-the-meta :simple as that, see?
 
2:59 PM
@forest it's text, restricted to 510 character messages
 
@forest just sort of oversight/lack of dev time to do it better, don't think it was done on purpose.
 
and even that has restrictions due to other things
 

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