Tavern on the Meta

2:01 PM

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in body, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: SO essential concern it will work by 100ry kiran on superuser.com …

Shog9

2:30 PM

@balpha really only bothers me when it interrupts me.

I kinda like being able to gauge the amount of spam by glancing at this room, especially in the evening

It has been getting a bit over the top lately, but that probably represents a flaw in our spam-blocking more than anything.

balpha

agreed, hence "I see the value" -- but that could also happen in a different room

I'm worried (and I know that I'm not alone in this) that it's so much lately that nobody new bothers to join the Tavern anymore because it looks like a horrible bot place with cryptic "sd 2k" messages

and the tavern is the main meta.se chat room

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Email in body: Can google send me information from a phone stolen from me by Ian kelly on android.stackexchange.com (@AndrewT.) …

ɥʇǝS

I know I don't come here because of Smokey.

Shog9

@balpha yeah, that's not ideal.

ɥʇǝS

(was linked to this convo.)

Shog9

2:34 PM

I wonder if we could roll these up a bit

thoughts, @Undo?

Shadow Wizard

Smokey runs in other rooms, we can just have a perma-pinned message with a link, and those who want to hunt spam can go there happily.

Shog9

@ShadowWizard right... I'm thinking it might be valuable to essentially make the Tavern a second (rather than primary) line of defense here.

Alert folks when there's a flood

ɥʇǝS

@balpha it would be nice if chat.meta and chat.se were slightly more integrated, so it would show up in my favourites sidebar from chat.se. Smokey has his own dedicated room on chat.se so people could just favourite that and see it in the sidebar. Probably not worth the work, although it'd be nice :P

Shog9

speaking of which... @Carpetsmoker, mind dropping in?

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 it is already, as far as I could see. The Charcoal is far more active, spam-wise. No?

Shog9

2:37 PM

@ShadowWizard probably? I don't hang out there.

Which is part of the problem with complete segregation

ɥʇǝS

Most of the active smokey people already hang out in CHQ.

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 true, we need more opinions from those who do hang out in there more. @Pro?

ProgramFOX

I'm fine with either keeping it here, dragging it to another room on chat.MSE or just remove it from chat.MSE.

ɥʇǝS

lol CHQ is just one letter off from GCHQ.

Andy

@ɥʇǝS Sssssssh

Shadow Wizard

2:38 PM

lol

hichris123

As a note again: we've tried to reduce the amount of false positives that are posted in here. And no SO posts are reported here -- the CVR takes care of those.

ɥʇǝS

still, as it is, smokey is the most active user here, with more messages than even long standing regulars.

hichris123

And in all honesty, when Smokey is gone for a while due to a crash, all people chat about in here is about Smokey. It doesn't seem to be a major impediment to conversation -- it just seems like there's fewer topics of conversation and regulars.

ɥʇǝS

14 mins ago, by ɥʇǝS

I know I don't come here because of Smokey.

IͶΔ

Well whatever.

Just shut Smokey down. We'll get 10 times less messages.

And I'll just use charcoal HQ to flag spam.

hichris123

2:50 PM

Smokey is at about 70-80 messages a day. Probably a few too many -- we can look at adjusting the reasons giving fps to not post in here.

ɥʇǝS

I haven't been here in a while. When did you start "throttling" what it posted here?

hichris123

Then again, just looking at the most recent messages in here, most have been tps.

@ɥʇǝS A few months ago

Carpetsmoker

@Shog9 'sup?

hichris123

in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, Jan 25 at 2:55, by hichris123

Smokey posted ~3/8 less reports to the Tavern this week: http://chat.meta.stackexchange.com/users/266345/smokedetector.

Ferrybig

At the moment, there is around-the-clock people flagging and marking the posts in the Charcoal HQ, a month earlier, this wasn't the case.

Andy

2:53 PM

@hichris123 Smokey is 70-80, but there are also all the related messages - true/false positive reports, checks if it's alive and why?. I think the argument for removing Smokey is less that smokey itself is to talkative, and more that Smokey is the thing a majority of the conversations in this room revolve around

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker this is just going around in circles now. Why are you so stuck on those comments?

ɥʇǝS

@Ferrybig uh, yes it was..

Maybe 6-8 months ago it wasn't, but it has been for a while now.

@Andy well that seems like a possible fix would just have smokey listen in another room.

hichris123

@Andy fair. And I'd be fine with any consensus that is reached here. But I'd hope that people actually active in here have input.

Undo

@Shog9 well, we could make it only report here when there's been fewer than x people talking in the last y minutes.

Shadow Wizard

I fear that without Smokey, the Tavern will just be empty, since all the regulars have been used to it so much. :(

Undo

2:56 PM

I do think that if we remove it completely, you'll have a dead tavern on your hands.

IͶΔ

^ that

ɥʇǝS

That's what the Tavern was. That's the way I liked it. ;)

well actually

Shog9

@Undo I'm quite honestly not worried about that. The Tavern existed long before SD, and has been through quite a few groups of regulars in its time.

ɥʇǝS

there used to be lots of talking before smokey.

IͶΔ

We're talking now.

ɥʇǝS

2:57 PM

infinite, Bart. Remember those days?

Shog9

We should decide things based on the utility of them first, the enjoyment they engender secondly.

Andy

@IͶΔ About Smokey

Shadow Wizard

@ɥʇǝS by users who are long gone by now.

Brown... no more.

Bart.... MIA.

ɥʇǝS

I'm still brown!

Shadow Wizard

lol

Undo

2:58 PM

I'd rather just remove it completely from c.mSE than give it another room, I don't see any reason to put work into maintaining one more chat server if it's just shunted off into another room.

hichris123

Another idea I'd like to impement (but might be hard) is to auto-delete reports if they're deleted in that two minute window.

IͶΔ

@Andy Yeah, I meant that we're talking about the current Tavern, not Tavern back at those legendary times.

Shadow Wizard

@jad something, right? Is the original brown...

Carpetsmoker

@Shog9 I'm not, really as such ... The thing that bothers me to be honest, is that I genuinely tried to do something good, and that at least two mods responded in a way that certainly feels like (paraphrased) "your volunteer efforts to make the site a better place suck, now shut up and go away"...

Doorknob

@ShadowWizard jadarnel

Carpetsmoker

2:58 PM

To be clear, I have no problem with you or anyone else saying "Look Carpet, I know you were trying to help out, but what you did was a bit silly because so-and-so"

hichris123

We have a websocket that tells us now if a post is deleted.

ɥʇǝS

@Shog9 brb running chmod 777 on shog's machine

Undo

@hichris123 holdit, when did that happen?

ɥʇǝS

then maybe it'll make sense.

hichris123

But then that means we have to subscribe to notifications on each post

Undo

2:59 PM

Ohhhh

yeah, not ideal

Carpetsmoker

I guess it's more of an emotional thing about that than anything else :-/ In Dutch we call it "stench for thanks" ...

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker You had a good idea: identify potentially problematic posts and do something about them. Your execution was terrible. That happens. Learn from it and find a better solution.

Undo

@hichris123 If Smokey was an owner, we could delete stuff outside of the two-minute window.

hichris123

@Undo Might not be too bad. I can implement a mock-up later

@Undo really?

Shadow Wizard

@Undo no, RO can't delete after 2 minutes window.

ɥʇǝS

3:00 PM

@Undo owners can't do that

Shadow Wizard

Only a diamond can.

Undo

oh, right

owners can nuke other people's stuff

Which would be fun...

Shadow Wizard

@Undo no, only Move.

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker well, I sympathize... But at this point, you can either waste your time in the sun discussing a pile of comments, or you can use it to implement a real solution.

Carpetsmoker

@Shog9 I don't necessarily disagree btw, it's just ... the tone of you post that disturbed me ... Not entirely sure how to explain that :-/

Undo

3:00 PM

@ShadowWizard No, they can nuke stuff too. Unless that got fixed.

ɥʇǝS

No, they can't delete anything. At least not through the UI.

Undo

We found that out implementing 'delete', I found out I could reply to FOX's messages and Smokey would dutifully delete them

Carpetsmoker

And I had no plans to discus that as such, I'm sorry I mentioned it in the question, because all I wanted to do with that is focus on what can we do rather than go on about the f-ing comments

Undo

@ɥʇǝS Not through the UI, but the request was wide open

IͶΔ

@Undo No, they can't nuke stuff.

ɥʇǝS

3:01 PM

@Undo wat

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker you spent the bulk of your question licking your wounds about them.

IͶΔ

Are you telling me I could've nuked stuff in chem's chat without knowing it?

ɥʇǝS

well that sounds like something @balpha should have been pinged about.

Undo

ya'll are going to make me dig up the meta post, aren't you?

IͶΔ

Yes.

Carpetsmoker

3:03 PM

@Shog9 Well, that's not entirely how I intended it... It was more of a narrative as to why I came to post that particular thread/question

Shadow Wizard

@Undo maybe with some hack, but there's no UI for that.

Undo

Sep 22 '14 at 16:45, by ProgramFOX

@balpha It's been said here that room owners aren't able to delete chat room messages.

and surrounding messages

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker well, I'm sorry, but... There's precious little to that discussion beyond the notion of these comments.

If you're serious about wanting to improve this situation, you need to look beyond slapping warning labels on things.

"chmod known to cause cancer by the state of California"

no one cares about warning labels.

They want solutions.

That's why anyone comes here.

Carpetsmoker

@Shog9 Well, I started by doing what you proposed by starting to write an answer to that question you linked...

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker ...and?

Carpetsmoker

3:09 PM

and what?

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker ...and, did you finish?

Carpetsmoker

No, not yet ;-)

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker well, keep at it. Solicit suggestions on meta. Encourage others to do likewise.

This is the only thing that has any chance of helping. Alternate solutions. That's how SO works.

Undo

Look, chmod 777 answers are terrible. But... they do solve the problem, and they solve it fast, so people are going to use them. One or two people aren't going to eradicate them from the site, you're going to need a whole bunch of people who can write new content that's actually helpful.

Carpetsmoker

@Shog9 Okay ;-) ... And I don't think we really disagree that much, as such ... Both on a way forward and that those comments probably weren't the best thing I ever did (although I did read the answers) ... I just got annoyed at a general feeling of being unappreciated ... I hope you can understand that :-)

Shadow Wizard

3:12 PM

Taking my words back... here we are in the Tavern, without Smokey, and doing just fine! The Tavern does have a future without Smokey... ;)

Carpetsmoker

@Undo Yeah, the problem can't be fixed for 100% :-( For fixing it for (say) 50% is already a good improvement!

Shog9

@Carpetsmoker sure. Just keep in mind, we're discussing a bunch of folks who took the easy route to a solution, blind to the long-term damage that it might cause. Let's avoid making the same mistake in our efforts to improve it.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer: How do I find files or folders with a certain name length? by frederik on superuser.com …

Carpetsmoker

@Shog9 Fair enough :-)

IͶΔ

@SmokeDetector K

Shadow Wizard

3:25 PM

@Undo true, found the way. Thanks!

Undo

sd f

@SmokeDetector f

Shadow Wizard

3:45 PM

So @Shog9 and @balpha when will you announce the verdict regarding Smokey here in the Tavern?

xkcdBot

4:00 PM

Today's xkcd comic (It Begins):

6

SmokeDetector

4:15 PM

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer: Why doesn't Chrome respect the DiskCacheSize policy? by francesca on superuser.com …

Shadow Wizard

Back to bots...

IͶΔ

@SmokeDetector IT BEGINS

Doorknob

so, it has come to this

IͶΔ

Actually, it has begun. This is the third Long Path Tool SU spam today.

Shadow Wizard

?

I think you two are talking about different things....

!!/blame

SmokeDetector

4:20 PM

@ShadowWizard It's Shog9's fault.

Shadow Wizard

huh!

IͶΔ

Are we?

@SmokeDetector for not suspending us?

Shadow Wizard

@Undo if it comes to removing Smokey from Tavern, any chance to leave a silent version, only with the fun commands? :)

Undo

no

I'm not going to maintain it on one more chat server if it's not doing anything useful

IͶΔ

:(

Undo joined the mods, became the fun hater.

Oh sadly that makes sense.

Shadow Wizard

4:31 PM

@Undo fair enough, maybe others will be able to host it, or even on a cloud like @FOX, /cc @Pro

ProgramFOX

meh, I'm really not going to tweak Smokey's source to only keep the "fun" commands and then run it here

Undo

Look, I'm willing to make accommodations for Tavern people. But there comes a point at which it really isn't worth it for the benefit you get.

ɥʇǝS

who runs xkcdbot? Easy to incorporate.

although I guess maybe it doesn't listen.

Mike Edenfield

I could always bring my bot in here.

particularly if you're a fan of War Games or Harry Potter :|

ɥʇǝS

War Games yes. Not so much Harry Potter :p

rene

4:48 PM

We can have a war game to kill Harry Potter?

We need both of them in the room for that to work...

rene

5:12 PM

Did the audit rate go up on SO?

I have one report in the SOCVR from a user with 6 audits on his 20 reviews

Undo

6:00 PM

If you walk into a bakery and don't get any service, you usually don't head over to a clothes store and ask for a donut. — Brad Larson 28 secs ago

doooooonuuuuuuts

Doorknob

reminds me of Beret Guy from xkcd and his scones :P

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Link at end of body: Ubuntu 15.10 npm error install phonegap by FrnandMG on askubuntu.com …

IͶΔ

0

Q: User avatar is misplaced on the badge page

I think that the avatar, name and rep of a user are misplaced on the badge page. Here is a picture with freehand circles:

Heh, why did Oded migrate that to English.SE instead of meta.ELU?

Undo

6:20 PM

Looks like a mistake. The freeform-migration thing is a little touchy.

Shog9

2

Q: 1, 2, 3...test. Let’s increase the number of reviews & close vote for science!

For many, many years users have asked and asked and asked for changes to the number of close votes and the number of reviews per day. There's been a little bit of skepticism as to the efficacy of such changes, but so far that's been mostly speculative. So... Let's test it! Current Problem: We'v...

discussion review vote-to-close low-quality-posts

Doorknob

oooh

IͶΔ

@Shog9 Oh nice

Proves that you guys are still listening to the community. And are still doing moderation-y stuff for the sake of blood and guts. And are still awesome.

Shog9

For the sake of blood and guts...

You've discovered my weakness. blutwurst.

Mike Edenfield

new features for great justice.

rene

6:37 PM

More, more, more

ɥʇǝS

@Shog9 Did all the PM positions get filled? I know someone who might be interested but I didn't see the position listed on careers.

Shog9

@ɥʇǝS maybe?

ɥʇǝS

anyone more particular I should ask?

Shog9

Either filled, or we have enough applications to keep us busy for a while, or we think filled and don't want to waste folks' time.

ɥʇǝS

ok, so basically keep checking?

Shog9

6:44 PM

@ɥʇǝS yeah

ɥʇǝS

k :/

IͶΔ

@ɥʇǝS Prime Minister?

ɥʇǝS

@IͶΔ project manager.

Travis J

@Shog9 - I made a small tool for seeing the "status" of the front page on SO, it just shows total upvotes for questions, total views, and total answers. It is on a set of 50 questions. I was curious, are you using any statistical analysis on the "front page" that monitors any of those metrics?

IͶΔ

I know, I'm just playing around

Shog9

6:45 PM

@TravisJ ?

Travis J

@Shog9 - Too abstract?

Shog9

@TravisJ too... I don't know what you're saying

We have monitors for votes , views, answers, etc.

I'm not sure how you're connecting this to the front page

Travis J

@Shog9 - Do you keep track of how well the set of the most recent questions on Stack Overflow fare for certain time frames?

Shog9

on SO, the front page is customized per user and somewhat random

@TravisJ not as a regular thing; we've examined it in the past (mostly connected to Triage), but that's it

Travis J

I knew that front page was a poor choice, I shouldn't have used it. Sorry. I meant in the "recent" tab, with 50 questions selected, as the set of interest. I think everyone sees the same thing there.

Okay, thanks :)

Shog9

6:48 PM

ok, yes

Andy

@ɥʇǝS To be slightly pedantic, they were product manager positions, not project manager

ɥʇǝS

eh, yeah, you're right.

But that's almost the same thing :p

Shog9

right... We have project managers too, but that tends to be more fluid (and you won't find the title used externally often)

Dec 23 '15 at 18:10, by Shog9

a proDUCT manager at Stack Overflow is more or less the person stuck in a kitchen with 6 vats of soup and scores of cooks, trying to make sure nothing gets ruined.

Dec 23 '15 at 18:13, by Shog9

a proJECT manager at Stack Overflow is someone else stuck in the same kitchen, but not really caring about the soup so much as just keeping the cooks from stabbing each other.

Travis J

The tape analogy breaks at JECT.

;)

IͶΔ

7:16 PM

!!/status

SmokeDetector

@IͶΔ Running since 19:14:12 UTC (2 minutes)

hichris123

@Shog9 Could you extend that to votes too? ;)

Thanks though. The blood and guts taste... sweet?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Email in body: Do you know some companies offering conditional systems such as Skinner's box? by Narges Barzgar on cogsci.stackexchange.com …

rene

no account there ...

hichris123

apparently I don't either

rene

7:19 PM

I don't have cognitive skills

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in title, phone number detected in title: 18006035727 McAfee Anti Virus Tech Support by maineeru321 on askubuntu.com …

hichris123

@rene Flowers are quite intelligent.

IͶΔ

What's the point in spamming a site in which @rene doesn't have an account?

hichris123

Maybe not quite Turing-complete, but...

rene

:D

rene

7:45 PM

I'm out of close votes on SO, I'm exhausted, need a cookie .. @hichris123 ???

IͶΔ

@rene licks cookie

rene

Noooo

hichris123

@rene Are you animuson now?

Feb 8 '14 at 3:29, by hichris123

@animuson If you do 1000 close reviews today (UTC time)... I'll give you a cookie.

rene

@hichris123 I'm going to feel like him yes ;)

hichris123

You can have a cookie then. :P

IͶΔ

7:50 PM

:o BREAKING NEWS: @Rene to become a CM

He surely shows the symptoms.

hichris123

> 10 votes remaining

rene

@hichris123 \o/

hichris123

Aww, I was hoping it would give me an extra 60.

Sterling Archer

8:13 PM

Sterling Archer go away you paypal thief. I've seen the guy that said it, don't try to disprove me — Zimbabwe Elephant 2 mins ago

That's a new one, tbh

IͶΔ

8:24 PM

@SterlingArcher The guy's on a spectrum where in one end stupidity lies and in the other trollmanship.

SmokeDetector

8:45 PM

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in answer: Increasing reviews per queue incrementally beyond 1000 by user319423 on meta.stackexchange.com …

bjb568

Or, like, autism.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector ] Bad keyword in title, phone number detected in body: tech support number by jon on askubuntu.com …

Shadow Wizard

9:12 PM

!!/alive?

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard Kinda sorta

Shadow Wizard

@SmokeDetector what happened to your cousin, @FOX? :/

user202362

how easy would it be to write an A.I. bot on this chat that talks to peoples but could be taken over by multiple regular users at the times just to confuse new users? :p

Sterling Archer

Clearly you haven't met Caprica Six :P

user202362

yes I have met 'her' :p

IͶΔ

9:22 PM

@SterlingArcher I met her/it/them/thy in meta.

user202362

but I am thinking of more like siri

IͶΔ

-8

Q: What is going on with the JavaScript room?

Seriously, almost all of the flags I get are in the JavaScript room. Here is one. In case you are tired, it leads to the "Ask a question" screen. I don't care about these silly flags, really. But I wondered if there is something we can do to make the flags more pertinent and save them for when th...

discussion chat

Sterling Archer

That post is garbage :P

IͶΔ

Flags

user202362

A chat bot could be as complicated as you want - like, adding data mining algorithms to it - find out what topic you would like to talk the most, which topics elicit most replies from you, which ones enrage you ...

user202362

9:28 PM

of course, humans already do that subconciously :p

user202362

Someone solved Fermat's Last Theorem

Mike Edenfield

9:51 PM

didn't he solve that like 20 years ago?

ah. he just got a prize for it.

user202362

10:17 PM

Quill

@IͶΔ lol

obviously volume === most flags

(removed)

user202362

mocked by your dogs

user202362

sadness ... :p

Jeffrey Bosboom

11:24 PM

-2

Q: Please I need solve VRP( Vehicle routing prroblem ) in PDDL ( Planning Domain Definition Language)

Good Day everyone , I really need your´s help,my master's thesis is programming in PDDL and my program is "Vehicle routing problem" I need source code of Vehicle routing problem (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle_routing_problem) in PDDL. http://pst.istc.cnr.it/PlanSIG10/proceedings/paper%2017.pdf ...

planning

Trying to outsource a master's thesis to Stack Overflow.

Transcript for