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12:20 AM
Q: Introducing new user onboarding project

Lisa ParkFollowing the Public Platform Q2 2021 roadmap, the team is kicking off the new user onboarding project and announcing our plans for the product-discovery phase. New user onboarding – Purpose We see about 200k sign-ups a month on Stack Overflow alone. These newly registered users (signed up within...

The "Goals" section reads like buzzword soup.
I'm having difficulty parsing it to understand what is actually meant.
Except "Focus on teaching new users" I guess, which is certainly beneficial and actionable.
And the "Deliver value at each step" step sort of seems like it's talking about gamifying the system as a way to teach people necessary information without boring people to death.
@forestdistrustsStackExchange Its slightly managementese.
But yes, I think you're right in those cases
Only slightly? :P
@forestdistrustsStackExchange for all my sins, I'm also a management major...
"Introduce the Stack Overflow ecosystem" is definitely "Find ways to trick them into paying for things"
At least that's how the description reads.
Actually that shows another slight flaw in SO inc's thinking
12:26 AM
So that's just marketing stuff.
Well - new user onboarding is marketing in a sense
And one positive thing - this is "what we do" over "what you do"
Only in the sense that SE/SO income is correlated with quality and user participation.
But I think onboarding needs to focus on teaching people the ropes.
Finding a way to get people to grok ESR's "right way to ask questions" document.
(But tailored to SE)
I think that was in our docs for... years?
Dunno. Only problem with it is that it focuses on asking questions in general.
So it goes into detail about how to ask on IRC, which is pointless here.
And only has a small paragraph or two describing Q&A sites.
Well - its both a artifact of its time, and ESR isn't a Q&A SME
... overloaded acronymn, my apologies
Subject Matter Expert
I think it's held up over time extremely well, although it does go a little heavy on older resources (info on Q&A sites should be tripled. Info on Usenet, halved).
(as opposed to small and medium enterprise)
@forestdistrustsStackExchange .... is there useful non legacy info on usenet?
Yeah but it's mostly niche stuff.
12:32 AM
Other than that it's just bins. Thank Eternal September... And Google Groups...
Its before my time, internetwise
I never expected you to be a youngling!
I kinda went from the 'local' teletext service to lynx(for a few months) to proper internet
@forestdistrustsStackExchange 38, going on 39
Well less that than the internet developed differently
We never really had BBSes and usenet
We had teleview
(not for long)
then we basically went straight to internet (on dialup)
We were also generally.... well slow in upgrading kit, and we never had consoles so I missed big chunks of computing history
(XT -> 486 -> PII -> buncha PIVs, -> c2d -> Core i5 sandy bridge)
12:43 AM
In where, Singapore?
teleview? yeah
it was a singapore only service
the other "we" is probably mostly my family :D
@JourneymanGeek Unrelated, but how can I use a fixed font for only certain portions of a comment in chat with multiple breaks?
It seems if I do the typical four leading spaces, it only works if everything is fixed font.

This should not be fixed font (no spaces).

This should be fixed font (four spaces).

`This should be fixed font (backticks).`
I don't think you can
fixed font is supported
Oh wait
This should not be fixed font
`this should be fixed font`
My shoes are made of spoo
Apparently fixed font breaks on multiline?
but you can just do it as a separate line
which feels almost like a bug
12:52 AM
Q: Markdown in chat fails for multi-line messages

sbiWe've come to rename Markdown to Letdown in the C++ chat room because it lets you down so often. I've now just found a pattern. It seems markdown fails for multi-line messages. That is, this Letdown can't cope with multi-line comments. Let's see code? fails to display code marked as code, while...

@JourneymanGeek It's intentional
also ugh
I wish we could beg for a quarter for chat refurb from corporate
I know I can do multiline fixed font if the entire comment is fixed font.

Like this.

And this.
A: Markdown in chat fails for multi-line messages

Adam LearWe now support multi-line quotes in chat, but the rest of markdown is still disabled for multi-line messages.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog So it's no longer intended to be like that.
(That post is an update from 2013)
"but the rest of markdown is still disabled for multi-line messages."
Well yeah, rest of markdown would include a bunch of things other than fixed font.
E.g. ##headers and --- separators.
fixed font is people markdown
1:00 AM
Oh derp, for some reason I thought he said multi-line fixed font, not multi-line quotes.
test 0
> test 1
test 2
> test 3
Huh, well they didn't do that right either.
Hm, I think Glorofindel's bot is broken. It's replacing non-broken links:
It just replaced links to ietf.org with web.archive.org links
Maybe because they do a 302 redirect? But not to the Web Archive...
@JourneymanGeek Could you super-ping him?
@Glorfindel ^
@forestdistrustsStackExchange was in the process of that, actually
1 hour later…
2:19 AM
@JourneymanGeek test
hm. not what I remember but it'll do
2:35 AM
(was looking for the old SE chat reply helper - which would let you reply to stuff by hitting up)
apparently its gone :( - there's another chat helper script that kinda works
my up arrow edits my previous message
Q: Outdated Accepted Answers: flagging exercise has begun

Anita TaylorAs I mentioned last month, the next step in the Outdated Answers initiative is an exercise for flagging outdated answers. Starting May 13, you may see temporary prompts on Stack Overflow that ask if an answer is outdated. The prompts have a chance to appear when the accepted answer is at least 60...

This is interesting.
I think this is a great step in the direction of ensuring answers are still relevant.
Even if it appears to only be on SO (?)
2:50 AM
@forestdistrustsStackExchange Well - "charitably" they have been around the longest and have the most volume. Any issues is writ large for them
@JourneymanGeek Yeah that makes sense. Those specific flag reasons would not be nearly as useful on the majority of other SE sites. But it's wonderful on SO.
3:41 AM
@KevinB my bad. I mean : up
This is Ctrl up r
2 hours later…
5:52 AM
@forestdistrustsStackExchange thanks for letting me know, I'll have a look at what's wrong. Sometimes a page behaves differently if a bot crawls it, and I'll have to treat it specially. I can't remember ietf.org being special though, but perhaps it's the first time (that the bot encounters it, or that somebody notices the wrong replacements). I do expect a changed link, but to datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7231#section-5
FWIW you can also ping me with a comment on that post, because I edited it.
Oh wait, it does change that to datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/rfc7231#section-5 - at least my unit tests indicate so. That means the site must have been down when the bot was active :)
1 hour later…
7:50 AM
14 messages moved to Chimney
113 messages moved to Chimney
@DavidPostill Nonono, you got that reversed. Actually, it is the StackExchange mods that have a Cutie Mark... Basically, every mod is one third Rarity.
1 hour later…
9:03 AM
^^^ Not onboarded, outboarded.
9:26 AM
@BabaYaga oh, OK.
Yet another grand project that is going to waste so much time.
9:41 AM
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard no, homework is off-topic that is why I said before you post you need to do all these things. I assume they figure out that if they do those things the end-result will become part of their question, not just a desk exercise.
@rene FWIW that (now deleted) question at MSE you recently commented at, it seems to be reposted from Stack Oberflow
and they got plenty advice on that one already ...
@gnat Uhoh. Someone's having a stuffed nose. Go get tested for Covid ;)
I guess reddit is a better venue for them
@rene or the library for a textbook
9:48 AM
Those are reopening today, aren't they? :D
Yeah I think so
@Luuklag nope, no one in the library will do their homework.
@rene Don't be too sure of that! Many libraries offer help with all sorts of things :P
It has been a while since I set foot inside a library ..
Same here, but ours has been doing that for ages. And it's only getting 'worse', since the library over here has become more and more of a 'community point'.
9:57 AM
Q: Let's help askers who are trying to circumvent question block at Stack Overflow

gnatIf a first time asker has an SO account that was recently (say, within a week) question blocked over there, how about showing them a warning like this: Wait! You've recently been blocked at Stack Overflow. Consider that quality requirements at Software Engineering are similar. Note that Stack...

@Luuklag gone
@gnat Good one. From the mod side of things: A way to see if people are question banned on other sites might be good as well. We can see it if people are abusing our sites because they're suspended on another, having a similar mechanism for quality bans would be useful as well, so people leaving comments can tailor them.
@Luuklag gone
@Luuklag gone
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog gone
@Luuklag gone
@Luuklag gone
@Luuklag gone
@Luuklag gone
10:14 AM
@rene that OP is beyond any hope, they just copy and paste their assignments, not bothering to do anything on their own even one bit. They deserve no help, if you ask me as it's pure waste of time.
I mean we can try, sure! But they just won't listen.
@Tinkeringbell sure thing. Mods already can see in user history when they were shown existing block and warning messages at the site so it would be only natural that yet another kind of such warnings would be visible to mods
@gnat To be fair, past blocks aren't easily discovered. I know of one user that was 'blocked from asking' until recently... yet when I look at the profile, I see no record of it :|
But I was more thinking along lines of 'MSE has a mod-message template for warning/suspending users that are quality banned on SO asking their questions here and no one ever gets to use it' XD
Just because there's no way to check for me if someone is just lost (and I should encourage them to write a better post on the appropriate site) or currently post-banned/rate-limited on that site. Sure, I can see it if they're suspended, just like any other user. I would think a post ban should show up similar like a suspension, and perhaps not just for mods but for all users.
Because moderators aren't the only ones that have to think about these things when writing comments (or flagging, or voting...)
It's just wishful thinking anyways, since those bans are calculated on the fly.
10:52 AM
@Tinkeringbell I think its from when we had the CMs do the moderation here
Can't you just ping ChrisF and call it a day?
@Tinkeringbell it's hard to discover is only because you (fortunately) have insufficient practice. At MSO, when one of the almost-daily complaints about question ban is posted, it takes, like, 5 minutes for some moderator to pop up with comment, "you have shown warnings 4 times at date1, date2, date3, date4 and you have 100 deleted questions: q1, q2, q3, ..., q100"
@JourneymanGeek I know it is ;) And @rene Chris would go crazy if I did that for every lost soul I find here XD
@gnat I'll ask the SO mods how they find those warnings then. :D
@gnat they can see all the warnings there
we can't
We can only see the warnings on our sites
@JourneymanGeek Can we really? Can you drop by the mod room, I'll drop you a link of someone that was question banned recently and you can show me where I look for those warnings?
11:04 AM
@Tinkeringbell on meta?
I can now confirm I learned something new :D
10 met een griffel en een plakplaatje
No lolly?
Useless :P
Not healthy
Ugh. You're right though.
11:14 AM
If lollies are on the table, at a minimum they should be fair-trade
How does being fair-trade make them healthier? XD
12:00 PM
@Tinkeringbell pop
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard goes the weasel...
@JourneymanGeek the warning we discussed would be local to the target site - ie to the site where user attempted to circumvent their Stack Overflow ban. As such it would "belong" to target site moderators, just like all other warnings shown to users at target site. No need to load SO mods with details of where else their banned users attempted to ask
@gnat which would reveal a bunch of SO specific info to us...
You do realise we can just suspend them for doing it here right? :D
Good to know that "post quality ban" warning is already fixed...!
A: Post ban warning not showing up

Brian NickelThis will be fixed in the next build. This was a missed requirement when we built the new question asking form. The input element that records it was shown was left in but the message was never rendered, hence the confusion. As a dev on the project this was my fault, so I'm sorry for any proble...

12:22 PM
@MetaAndrewT. in one word.... Brianned!
also: broken since September 2019 on SO main ...
welp, we should have tried getting ourselves question banned since then...
Yeah that's... Quite a long time. It makes all the comments that people sent to long-since deleted "How do I get out of a question ban? I didn't see this coming at all!" meta posts feel, in retrospect, really stupid. :(
Like anyone ever read it anyway. ;)
@Spevacus reminds me of kid yelling "Look! Dragon!" and you go "Nah, there are no dragons" and never bother to check.... only that the kid actually saw a dragon. :P
12:27 PM
I just had too many cases where users went: Nope, not seen a warning when the mods could see a warning should have been shown to them.
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard I thought the kid was the dragon?
@MetaAndrewT. the dragon is inside
Dragon Inside™
@rene Yeah that feels really bad. :/
Found the dragon inside @rene
12:33 PM
looks like... a scared cat :/
Okay, so weird situation: A user said they accidentally gave me a 100 rep bounty, that they intended to give it to another answerer. They asked me to give a 50 bounty to the answerer, and I thought "sure!". But the minimum amount for bounties on that same question is 100 rep. Is it okay to offer the bounty on another question where the answerer provided an answer, just to give the bounty?
@AnnZenat1YearAnniversary The minimum on the question should be 200
and the whole situation feels fishy
@AnnZenat1YearAnniversary bounties for the reason of "transferring rep" is frowned upon
rep whitewashing: the new frontier of sockpupettery.
Q: Find string between two substrings, in a stream of data

user1584421I have this continuous serial data stream: ---------------------------------------- SENSOR COORDINATE = 0 MEASURED RESISTANCE = 3.70 kOhm ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- SENSOR COORDINATE = 1 MEASURED RESISTANCE ...

12:42 PM
that wierd
Q: How does the bounty system work?

A. RexIt's possible to offer and award bounties of reputation on questions. What is a bounty? How can I find questions that have a bounty attached? How do I start a bounty? When can I start a bounty? Why is the system requiring me to choose a bounty amount that's higher than the minimum? Can I use Ma...

> If you have already answered the question before, the minimum bounty offer is 100.
> If you have already offered a bounty on the question before, the minimum offer is double your last offer (see below).
@AnnZenat1YearAnniversary hence the minimum being 100
@JourneymanGeek ohhh
I really would suggest clearing it with the local mods cause its... a bit unusual
@JourneymanGeek I see. Via a flag?
That might work
No 'mod chat' ?
@JourneymanGeek Um, I know some chat rooms where mods hang out...
12:48 PM
@JourneymanGeek so what? This is not PII (which mods can access anyway since we talk about users posting at their sites). And moderators get this SO specific info anyway when system blocks their attempts to migrate question back to the site where user is banned. Heck, at sites with migration options in close dialog these details are easy to obtain even for regular non-diamond users
But not any formal/official mod rooms.
\o/ orrrr we let them do it twice then suspend them
@JourneymanGeek Nope, they couldn't prevent that room from freezing
No don't involve mods, I see nothing fishy here.
Honest mistake. @Journeyman @Ann
@AnnZenat1YearAnniversary Yeah this seems like something chat would be better for. A flag seems a little awkward, and a meta post seems like you'd be going a bit further than necessary.
12:49 PM
My advise is just ignore and move on.
That user made a mistake, it's on him. Not your fault, you don't have to waste time over other people's mistakes.
Take the rep and run ;)
Thank you for your advice.
@Ann but if you really want to be fair while not harming the bounty system integrity, this answer looks good and might deserve +100 bounty anyway:
A: Pandas indexed Series Subset (of a DataFrame) not changing values

dracarysAlthough @Henry Ecker's answer is very elegant, it is very slow compared to what I have done (over 10x slower), so I would like to go ahead with my implementation fixed My implementation fixed as per Henry Ecker's suggestion df.loc["cons",date] = cons.to_numpy() dates = list(df.columns) dates.rem...

Up to you, I don't see it as any form of abuse. I also gave bounties in the past after looking on purpose for useful answers from certain user(s).
@JourneymanGeek Next, on SO: "Nigerian prince need your help to receive 1kkk rep on a site they don't have account for. Just pay a 1000rep bounty in advance to account xyz"
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard Good idea. I'll see if I can find more info first :)
1:03 PM
I wasn't thinking of rep laundering... :D
@Luuklag gone
Hah my inbox was Jnatified ;)
had some backlog to clear ;)
2:00 PM
Rockets arrived to north of Israel too... @Mith you OK?
@Luuklag not JNatted? ;)
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard hmmmm could work as well
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard No such command 'jnat'.
How long till Yaakov gets back to work btw? I was thinking his leave should be about done by now right?
2:01 PM
@Luuklag think he's back
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard I'm talking to them elsewhere so... they're ok
Just look at his twitter, looks like he lives close to gaza
must be rough
@Luuklag indeed, so probably got extra week or two of leave.
Hard to concentrate with missiles flying over your head.
@JourneymanGeek :)
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard and without propper night rests
@SPArcheon whitewashing and nigerian princes, dubious connection there....
@Luuklag yeah, this too
2:09 PM
Ryan Donovan on May 19, 2021
This is a story about trying to rethink complex systems: the challenges you face when you try to rebuild them, the burdens you face as they grow, and how inaction itself can cause it’s own problems. When you’re weighing the risk and reward of replacing architecture, it can take several attempts to find a solution that works for you.
You had a system architecture, you added KBS, now you have containered all your problems ....
@rene containers can be placed at the roadside for wastecollection ;)
@Luuklag But since we now have to pay each time they're collected, try to make sure you stuff em as full as possible so they don't need to go that often.
@Tinkeringbell I see a market for home trash compactors
Yeah ... I have these underground things. Hate it when it doesn't fit through the door
2:14 PM
@rene roots?
@JourneymanGeek I've seriously spotted a dedicated wooden post in our neighbor's shed already :D
But our neighbors are kinda weird people anyways.
@JourneymanGeek underground containers, which you open with a creditcard like thing
We have the same for the non-recycleables
@Luuklag ._.
At the start they had large opening, now they welded metal plates in them, so their only half as big, a long 30L bag hardly fits in it now.
2:17 PM
while they are supposed to take 30L bags
that sounds kinda skeevy
@JourneymanGeek It basically is.
My brother had the same, they reduced the sizes of what the containers take from 60L to 30.
we uh
Have a little door in the wall...
Basically: You have to pay us, and we're making really, really sure you can't just stuff your bag really full.
(trashbags usually stretch a little :P)
the new place has 'common' ones but... they use vaccums and stuff for auto collection. Current place has people picking it up on golf card pickups
2:23 PM
I'm hoping I get trash cans... but now that I think about it, I don't actually know what the new place is going to be like.
@ShadowTheVaccinatedWizard yeah
Binging TV on base, to be perfectly honest
@rene how many people here use Kubernetes?
I guess that's a question for everyone, but I was replying to what rene said.
@user1271772 the big joke is...
SE uses it
And they haven't done a write up on their systems a while :(
2:38 PM
@Tinkeringbell You're going to be in an appartement right?
then most likely no containers for you
That is a bit funny indeed!
@JourneymanGeek your going to move?
@Luuklag sigh
Was supposed to be 2022
its officially 2023 now but its been pushed back further
wow, thats some serious delays
what caused that?
2:40 PM
@Luuklag right, you just drop them from the balcony?
Our construction workforce is mainly from china and india
so.. we're having a massive shortage, especially as many of the outbreaks happen in worker dorms.
@rene you could try, but you might piss off some neighbours
@JourneymanGeek its social hugging in those most likely, compared to distancing ;)
@Luuklag naw, people in smallish rooms, lowest bidders...
Not a particularly good year for me, and 2019 and 2020 weren't cakewalks either :D
When I lived in an HDB apartment in Singapore there was a strict limit to the number of people that an apartment could be rented to, but apparently they didn't care so much about the fact that construction workers coming from other countries were sometimes cramped such that 8 people were sleeping in a room.. there's documentaries about it.
Documentaries about the conditions of migrant workers
@Luuklag also they're built in a wierd way - they announce they're building a new public housing development, you ballot and get a place and then they build it
2:48 PM
I recall there being penalties for people not wearing seatbelts, or cars having more people sitting in them than the number of proper seats, but around the NTU campus we'd see pick-up trucks with a multitude of migrant construction workers sitting in the back of the truck with no seatbelts!
@Luuklag Yes, but on the other hand it's only going to be two-storied one, so there's still a tiny chance? XD
@user1271772 its 'legal'
and dumb
@Tinkeringbell if all else fails... get a trebuchet.
Oh well, I don't make that much mess anyways.
3:15 PM
@Tinkeringbell maybe you can convince the covidiot this way: thebestsocial.media/nl/advertorial-logitechg
3:31 PM
@Tinkeringbell Are you going to have a shed or a patch of garden?
3:59 PM
@Luuklag Both :)
@Luuklag Blegh, marketing.
4:19 PM
Q: At least apostrophes now do not 'always' preview correctly when an internal link is used

ymb1 Link to submitted post I searched and I do not think it was reported. When an internal link is used, at least (possibly other characters are impacted) apostrophes now do not render properly in the preview (they used to) – the final result after submitting is correct though. Edit: for some reas...

after submitting question, I can't repro, do I delete?
for now I added not always to the title
norepro here as well... but I don't know if that means delete or leave it.
You have a screenshot of it happening, so... 'not always' seems sufficient to me now.
@Tinkeringbell i was hinting to #11 specifically
Still. It was made for the sole purpose of marketing, so now i hate it :)
@Tinkeringbell copy thanks
5:15 PM
5:32 PM
Space shogi is a three-dimensional shogi variant invented by George R. Dekle Sr. in 1987. The gamespace comprises nine 9×9 shogi boards stacked vertically. Each player controls a standard set of shogi pieces. Space shogi was included in World Game Review No. 10 edited by Michael Keller. == Game rules == Space shogi follows standard shogi conventions, including the same types and numbers of pieces, and a similar initial setup. All the normal shogi rules apply, including drops, promotion, check, checkmate, and impasse. But pieces have the freedom of three-dimensional movement. === Startin...
6:01 PM
i wonder how accurate that image is
6:24 PM
@KevinB it's an artist's conception
6:42 PM
They've certainly taken some liberties over the original Shog eye design:
7:08 PM
@Rob where did you find this?
7:18 PM
hmmm why can't I vote to delete this:
Q: Does Hive any ambition towards goals outside of the digital world?

TheHiveThere is no digital currency right now, fluctuation on a crypto is too high to be a currency. What direction is been taken on bringing HBD to a currency?

It's closed, and negatively scored
@Luuklag Needs to be at -3.
hmmm now I can, does it have to be -3
haha yup, it has to be
You only need a negative score for answers, -3 for questions closed less than 48 hours ago.
@Luuklag Tbh, this looks like a reaaaaally bad spam attempt.
No payload, awful english, but the username being "TheHive" is suspicious to me.
Lets just delete it, its so bad at spamming I don't care much
Parrot ate it. /o/
7:28 PM
@Spevacus parrot is always hungry
Dude, give me some to digest properly first!
@Spevacus is that biowaste?
7:30 PM
It's apparently takeout. Difficult to tell with the size.
biowaste... gee, thanks.
Theres more for you to eat on the frontpage Tink
🥐 ?
@Spevacus if thats what SSL tastes like
Blegh. I hate those posts that require me to turn my scroll wheel more than once.
Just to get to the buttons.
7:37 PM
Turn on keyboard shortcuts and hit m -> d -> enter :)
We should have like a ctrl + downarrow thing here
to go to the end of a post
Just like Excel has to go to the end of the active range
Pressing the End key takes you to the bottom of the page, but if the question's not closed you'll have an answer textbox in your face :/
i mean
adblock the answer textbox
And the upvote button?
well no, the upvote button isn't in the way
7:42 PM
@Spevacus If only the footer wasn't half a screen high
And there would be 0 comments
i mean
8:01 PM
hey cool, I'm exactly at 50 silver badges
2 hours later…
10:05 PM
I think I was at exactly 10/80/200 badges at one point before...
10:25 PM
i had one gold badge once
I don't think I've ever had a gold tag badge.
11:05 PM
You'll have a silver one for Linux when the script runs: security.stackexchange.com/… then there was two security.stackexchange.com/help/badges/1248/linux
11:59 PM
Silver doesn't get you anything though.

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