@wizzwizz4 (@rev4) *grovelling- m-my deepest apologies your highness. this will not happen again!!

@starball We accept your apology. (I did find your edit useful as a base, though, so thanks.)

@wizzwizz4 lmao. my pleasure :)

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OK, who's brave enough to eat this?

;-)

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@ShadowWizard no one hopefully.

and that is not bravery, it is "stupidity".

such products should be banned

Also, don't take me wrong but... I am quite surprised to see Smokey still running after finally noticing the post on meta.

@SPArcheon You assume the changes to the datadump are a well planned scheme

TPTB probably have little idea what smokey actually is

@JourneymanGeek the scheme has been well planned.

The hints of them wanting to shut off the anon channels have been there for long.

And please don't pretend no one saw that line someone posted by mistake and deleted about "ending anonymous support" followed up almost immediately by the "totally unplanned" let-me-show-you-the-login-prompt-again-and-again-inator fix

@JourneymanGeek I also think you miss the point. I meant that this new low is imho so horrible that I kinda expected a new mass strike.

@SPArcheon They'd try again in a year or 6 months

Better that it fail abjunctly

@JourneymanGeek how do you expect them to fail if I may?

@SPArcheon Well, this is predicated on the idea that there will be no backups available publicly

I'm pretty sure people are annoyed enough to script clicking through every site, downloading the datadumps and then uploading them

@JourneymanGeek Honestly? They have just to pretend to have done something to appraise their funder - probably OpenAI

@SPArcheon-onstrike or the CEO thinks its essential

but basically it won't have any real impact on the backups or LLM scraping

@JourneymanGeek the Darth Sidious like wording there seems to imply they hope to watermark the dump to track it down to the downloader.

so for now letting it fail on its own merits seems a stratergy

@SPArcheon-onstrike ah see

I will be requesting a full dump, and hashing it

90-100gb is... not much

so if they are watermarking it, we'll know

I'm not sure what I'll do with it (it is a lot of data ) but I have some ideas

but creating and publishing a list of hashes seems like a good idea

@JourneymanGeek depends on how stupid the watermark is. They may as well add a fake question like "This datadump was downloaded by user ......"

a hash would catch that

What I meant is that it should be very easy to detect alterations just by comparing two dumps. May be a little more tedious to remove them

no no no

See, if they start watermarking them then we raise a fuss

@JourneymanGeek I think that the passive aggressive threat makes the watermark a given thing.

> when you breach the agreement that you make when downloading the dumps file, we do have the option to decline to provide you with future versions of the data dumps."

And actually, the way this trash work they already have the best possible watermark ever.

The new dumps will be a snapshot to a given instant.

But watermarking the files is extra work

@SPArcheon-onstrike they won't be

that's comically expensive

also contrariwise

if you know there's a watermark, and its deterministic, how ling would it take for a sufficiently annoyed dev to workaround/poison it?

@JourneymanGeek does not need to be a second-by-second thing. A daily dump based on some already-in-place backup system may already work if the downloads are sparse enough.

@SPArcheon-onstrike Its still a very 'expensive' thing - its a sanitised data dump, of quite a lot of data

@JourneymanGeek Oh, I know that, and trust me I will enjoy that plot twist

I think it'll still be quarterly

@SPArcheon-onstrike well, their fault: they're not 18 yet. Musk ate it and said it's spicy, without going to hospital. ;)

oh wait, why strike? @SPA

The data dump?

@ShadowWizard the latest attempt to kill the data dumps

@Eleeza hi! Didn't notice you're here. :D

@JourneymanGeek meh, when they'll actually kill it I might strike/retire again.

But so far it's just super annoying and super expected step.

@SPArcheon-onstrike but looks like it's pretty safe for adults. As safe as playing with gun, I mean. :D

@JourneymanGeek assume? I think it's obviously part of their plan.

@ShadowWizard I mean, they think it'll work :D

@ShadowWizard Musk probably would also state that last evening they warmed up their frozen pizza using their thermal ray vision.

the current system is a compromise with holes you can drive a truck through

There's a song about it.

So in SE it's "Killing The Data Dump Softly With Our Plan".

:-D

@JourneymanGeek they're super naive and clueless, so yeah. It will blow in their faces, but until then we still got some time.

@ShadowWizard for a second I feared you were going to post a very specific FNAF fan song made by the Living Tombstone...

So lets consider - 1) you can request a full dump to create a derivative copy *as long as you are not using it to train LLMs

@SPArcheon-onstrike I'll actually believe such a claim. ;-) (and Musk is a "he".... no???)

2) you're asked not to put it on a file dump

3) there's no restrictions after that

so hypothetically as long as I'm not uploading it to IA, I'm following the letter of the rules

ahh

> Mr Musk, who has a transgender daughter, has previously said he "supports trans" while expressing impatience with pronouns - calling them an "aesthetic nightmare"

That's why you referred to him as "they"? @SPA ^

@SPArcheon-onstrike nah, no worry. :D

@ShadowWizard Just default switch case when I have no time to check

@JourneymanGeek yeah, but the problem is the concept, and fact they can block access per-user.

@ShadowWizard I'll say it again, I don't think they would gain much by force handing people to RPA the site.

I mean, I think one could even go as far to RPA coping the questions (with attribution) to codedidact just for spite at this point.

Or even better, work with the codedidact core devs to just import content straight from the dump.

What do u think about synonymizing encoding and url-encoding ?

@SPArcheon-onstrike there are probably dozens of SO copycats out there by now, some legal (giving attribution) and some not. So it won't be anything new or exciting, and won't help the platform.

@αλεχολυτ why not [tag:tagname] format?

Anyway, no - the encoding is more general and can refer to HTML encoding as well.

@αλεχολυτ should be single line.

Multiline messages can't have formatting.

@ShadowWizard yep, forgot about that

@ShadowWizard At this point I guess the patience of most users is far beyond the "help" phase. I guess after this new colossal [redacted] many will switch to "how can we actively kill off the site"

@SPArcheon-onstrike but that won't kill any site.

@ShadowWizard is it really important on META?

@αλεχολυτ well, only mods can create synonyms, you can start a discussion on MSE asking for it.

every time when i'm facing with encoding issue on SE i'm struggling with choice - encoding or url-encoding

@ShadowWizard I hope mods will see it here in chat

@αλεχολυτ there's also html-entities which might be better in the case of your last bug.

> For questions about HTML entities shown on Stack Exchange in places where they shouldn't

It's result of bad encoding, so both tags can fit.

@SPArcheon-onstrike That would be counterproductive

bad fpr SEO

@αλεχολυτ even if they do, they won't act only upon it.

@ShadowWizard I’ve called @SPA a «he», a «she» and a «they», so I don’t think there’s a whole lot of consideration behind pronoun use there. :P

@αλεχολυτ If only there was a Q/A site with tags as a hierarchy…

Looks like GenAI has passed 1 year old today

@MetaAndrewT. Do undead still count years like living being do?

because that site is a rotting corpse.

Good question, I just got reminded of it due to the Yearling badge...

@SPArcheon-onstrike it still breathes

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact SPA should be only "they", though.

@JourneymanGeek and as active as most small SE sites. No?

ehh I guess

@ShadowWizard Could’ve gone by «that». :P

(e.g. one (decent) question a week)

but considering all the advantages it got that's not exactly very good

@MetaAndrewT. Would you like to celebrate? Anybody wants to bake the cake?

@JourneymanGeek meh, just shows SE can't force a new site just like that. It should come from the people who want it.

If it would have gone through Area51, as it should have, I think it would have been much better.

@ShadowWizard A51's rather broken and SO inc dosen't want to put resources into fixing it

@JourneymanGeek And Galvani's frogs legs still moved....

@SPArcheon-onstrike or those viral squids...

but I mean here its not dead enough

@JourneymanGeek What is that cake made of?

lies?

Fitting.

@JourneymanGeek you forgot to light the candle.

@ShadowWizard Paimon is Paimon

@ShadowWizard maybe it was on purpose.

@JourneymanGeek smart.

Leave the middle of the cake for the Birthday kid itself.

@SPArcheon-onstrike I prefer Sakuya.

@ShadowWizard Error - not enough filters. Unable to pinpoint single match.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I have a better idea.

@ShadowWizard Oh, no, don’t burn it.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact too late!

@ShadowWizard Wonder what you wrote on this exact date and time 10 years ago.

@ShadowWizard then it was your fault

@SPArcheon-onstrike yay! buying

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact easy to find... let me see...

huh! Not so easy, July 18th 2014 was super busy day here, but that was my first message on that day:

@Andreas

Not really same time, but closest I can give. ;)

@JohnDvorak gone

;)

@ShadowWizard Too late, he’s on Codidact now.

@ShadowWizard Late to the party.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact :(

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact :(

Pouring a bucket of more sadness over @Sha

!!/status

@ShadowWizard Running since 09:52:07 UTC (1 hour, 13 minutes, 40 seconds)

@ShadowWizard Running since 05:50:58 UTC (5 hours, 14 minutes, 50 seconds)

double Smokey!

!!/location

@ShadowWizard teward/Cerberus 4442e45999 (SmokeDetector: Auto watch of bakehouse\.great-site\.net by tripleee)

@ShadowWizard Makyen/EC2-linux b70464bedf (SmokeDetector: Merge pull request #11971 from Charcoal-SE/auto-blacklist-1720318005)

neither of them here. :/

Well we can enjoy double coffee in the meanwhile...

!!/coffee double

@ShadowWizard brews a cup of latte for @double

oh

what?

!!/location

@ShadowWizard teward/Cerberus 4442e45999 (SmokeDetector: Auto watch of bakehouse\.great-site\.net by tripleee)

So weird.

!!/location

@cocomac teward/Cerberus 6a4b2d8bfb (SmokeDetector: Merge pull request #12150 from Charcoal-SE/auto-blacklist-1721298923)

@ShadowWizard Not sure where your message went, but Jeff Schaller fixed it in CHQ chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/65976051#65976051

@cocomac yay! Thanks.

My message was eaten by TGW of course.

The Great Waffle

Entity that devours all wrong chat messages.

@SPA anyone else is joining the strike? Is there going to be an organized strike as well? /cc @Mith

(Not that it will help though)

unlikely

@Mithical not important enough, or because people choose to believe the company?

people aren't going to bother with striking, they'll just walk away

@Mithical ah, that bad.

Organize a walkaway instead, then.

@ShadowWizard I am just stopping posting any new content until the site finally dies or it is sold again to a better holding.

the "on strike" tag is just a self reminder.

@SPArcheon-onstrike Who’s going to answer my pony lore questions then?

I need to know the truth about the “spiny-backed ponysaurus”.

@ElementsInSpace you are free to ask in the Sugarcube, just request write access there.

@SPArcheon-onstrike ah, personal training. Lovely. :D

@ShadowWizard what the hell is going on this time? eyeroll

Wait, that's not really new.

@M.A.R. it is.

@ShadowWizard it's not.

And neither is the pattern of course.

@M.A.R. data dump. Hosted in Internet Archive. SE tries to change it so that it won't be hosted anywhere anymore, but rather per-site request to get it.

Or in simple words, put it behind login wall.

Their AI bosses aren't happy with the fact the rival AI companies can now trivially download the dump and train their rival LLM's with it, and that's the result.

I am so wise.

CC @JNat

So they think, in their super simple minds, that requiring login means the CEO of the rival companies will create profile on each site, download the dump, and on the way contribute new posts when doing it. LOL

@M.A.R. Prophet!

@ShadowWizard I can't wait to downvote and close vote Musk's questions

lol

@ShadowWizard Lisan Al-Ghaib!

@M.A.R. Ah, this reminds me. Guess what I said before about bridge and everything is now moot? @JNat

As I feared, your goodwill didn't translate to management actions.

!!/tea Spe because we can still drink

yay

I might need something stronger if I'm gonna be looking at this WeAreDevelopers discourse today.

@Tinkeringbell forgive me for asking, but I am curious. When you go around putting the "state-review" tag on question... is that a mod initiative to make post more visible to employees or is that something your are told to do after someone start working on a post?

Are you aware that it makes an internal ticket in staff backlog? That's the primary reason to do it. It's been awhile, but I remember staff saying something to the effect of "Err on the side of over-escalating instead of not escalating something that maybe should've been"

@Spevacus vodka?

I add those tags either because I a.) See a bug that's quickly gathering attention so I know loads of people are bothered by it, b.) get a flag (or sometimes chat ping, but please, flags) on a recent post that's only answerable by staff, c.) there was this post about when to add one to 'old' posts, but that's been out of date for quite a while so I chuck those off to JNat.

That's pretty much it, I think.

I was mostly curious about what the tag actually does.

A while back I discussed adding the tag to every bug report with a CM, but I was asked not to do that (yet) because it might indeed flood the internal systems.

so basically its intended use is for marking bugs.

So for now, it's just the popular/really disruptive ones, with a sprinkle of 'this needs fixing but may never get enough attention to be picked up :P'

@Tinkeringbell so some pretty big bugs don't get it (e.g. the unfollow bug) but still end up being fixed.

Sometimes, but not always. meta.stackexchange.com/q/348642

I was wondering if it could be used to also mark unanswered community concerns.

I am reminded that this doesnt seem to be updated :(

Not really, it's also for other posts that really can only be handled by staff, e.g. that merge weirdness we saw a while back.

@Tinkeringbell still ongoing actually, there was another oddity related to merge, @Journeyman confirmed something is off.

I think?

But since OP already sent contact form, not sure status-review will do any good.

Sure. That user also already mailed support I think, hence no tag there :)

Exactly :)

@SPArcheon-onstrike not only, I see it used on e.g. this which isn't a bug at all.

ah: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/394971/…

@Tink so perhaps mark the above as completed?

(or just remove the review tag?)

@ShadowWizard It actually had a flag asking that too, but I hadn't gotten around to asking for a second opinion... I guess I have one now :P Done :P

I'm usually really, really careful with the red tags, especially the ones for stuff like completed or no-repro...

@Tinkeringbell :-)

And time to finish the daily/weekly tasks at work... cya!

Cya!

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@Tinkeringbell I think/suspect merges are somehow extra broken

Ohhhh, looook.... I get to post A THIRD QUESTION.

They added a third unexplained option to the data request page.

Time to post a request for clarification AGAIN

At least they won't be able to claim they "didn't know"

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact yes, usable Q/A content. Not meta stuff

I don't consider a Meta post that point outs issues or lack of good faith "content"

It’s content that ends up in the data dump and helps train LLMs like ChatGPT at arguing.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact if it its when it should it's you know it stole my content

If it fits?

If it fits its fit it is

@JourneymanGeek Seriously, though, not sure what you’re saying.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact if an LLM stole my content outright, it might potentially pick up the quirks in my writing :D

@JourneymanGeek We’ll know when it starts revealing the private stuff we shared in here.

@JourneymanGeek oh the horror

Would be truly awful.

Nobody asked ChatGPT to converse as if it was a journeyman on a geek trip?

"Pretend you have zero idea about an apostrophe's function."

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact If they really need a LLM that sprouts out ponies references when asked for technical stuff...

mhm

I think I will print this and put it on the office wall for everyone to look at.

> Stack Overflow does not sell (as the term is defined in the CCPA) the personal information we collect (and will not sell it without providing a right to opt out).

"we don't sell your PII, but in case we change our mind you can opt out"

either you don't do [A] or you do [A] and we can opt out.

You can't claim both at the same time.

it is basic logic.

Nice find. Thank you for asking about it.

so....

the Data Request page has a "data portability" button.

Does this mean I have the right to request a dump of my own posts?

....

Maybe we can still get the dump.... it just takes every single user to request it own piece. Preferably at the same time near some holiday.

"jokes" aside...

@Spevacus I was looking at the Data Request page

@SPArcheon-onstrike imagine... multiple users requesting the full dump, or downloading a total of 90gb. Pretty sure that some vaguely internet famous person can pull off getting enough of their followers to do it ._.

and notice that now it has TWO separate options about processing. Since they refuse to explain how this work I was looking at the privacy pace to say if "selling my information" was mentioned somewhere

@JourneymanGeek I am pretty sure that all it takes is a post on the programmer subreddit, they hate stack - you don't even need anyone famous.

and I am debating trying to see if you can download a datadump with 1 rep

@JourneymanGeek I mean, if they don't want us to share it on the Archive site then every user has to download their own copy. Preferably at the same time.

@SPArcheon-onstrike dosen't need to be at the same time. Just needs a sysadmin to go to their boss and go "you do realise our bandswith usage hexdrupled this week right?"

@JourneymanGeek I bet the management would see that as a monetization opportunity.

they already are

> You get one free dump download every six month but you can get more by switching to our premium subscription plan - only 19.99$/month

@JourneymanGeek I hope someday they will do some next level shoot-yourself-in-the-foot move and limit each user to like 10 sites max unless you buy some premium account.

would do nothing for normal users, but would kill cross site moderation / flagging.

I hope they don't and get a modicium of common sense :D

but that's too much to ask for

there's a reason why I was asking about bulk dumps - I'm someone its going to be very hard to say no to :D

(there's a certain advantage to being both vocal, and generally well loved. Also, I got the disk space :D)

@JourneymanGeek there are several idioms for showing off in Farsi. My favorite is "he opens a can of soda for himself". Another good one is "he's carrying watermelons under his armpits".

@ShadowWizard Oh hello! :D

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard Good midnight.

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