@MetaAndrewT. "Positions 1559-1563, 1594-1598, 2307-2311, 2530-2534, 3311-3315, 3424-3428: ....".

→ 27 messages moved to Chimney

@rene yeah already flagged and del-voted

People acting so weird...

Anyway daily rant time... it's nice that "Member for" has been forced back, but it does not fix the damage that was done. No apology, no hint that it won't happen again.</rant>

Meh. Don't make promises you can't keep.

And well... this site has pretty much shown that any apology will be dismissed as not good enough too so :P

Better to roll back and let that be the admittance of 'wrong' and the fix for it then. No need for fancy words.

@Tinkeringbell it was only partially rolled back, and overall the developer was joking all the time instead of taking it seriously. I'm the last to judge one who's joking around (i.e. that's what I'm doing in chat most of the time) but still, I did not find it funny at any point.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 joking around? where?

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 well to some extent it's something that seems minor and less obvious unless you're an old timer.

If you mean this comment... well perhaps people should think about the attitude that's responding to too then. "Worst UI ever" is an overused insult on these sites.

Sometimes you gotta assume people do things in good faith

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 which is a response to....

@Tinkeringbell oh

@JourneymanGeek Which is a.) completely ignoring that this is a partial change, and b.) using that overused insult without any constructive feedback on what they would like to see....

@Tinkeringbell I mean it's a response to someone else calling it that

@JourneymanGeek Yes... and in a very unconstructive manner too, if it was flagged as unkind instead of replied to, I would've deleted it.

Yeaaah....

I get it, these are changes that break workflows and to some extent hurt egos. But you can't expect everyone to know that 'ooh, that calendar on profiles? That's an important mod tool'. I didn't know until other mods started complaining, I didn't even know it existed!

I think something we might need to think about, and communicate is...

"Last Seen" is probably something similar to kicking IPS out of HNQ: Twitter whines about seeing IPS on HNQ, and IPS itself whines about being on HNQ, so kicking it out doesn't seem much of a controversial decision. SE gets complaints about 'Last Seen', and no one seems to have ever told people how useful it was, so removing Last Seen seems sensible.

Animuson is right in the comments there: If you use e.g. WhatsApp, showing your 'last seen' is a privacy setting. I've never seen any other place that just lists when I was last seen, without an option that explicitly need turning on.

we're in a strange place where a lot of the time, we might be much more experienced on how the site is used, and how we think it might be used than many of the staff...

we can be pains in the arses about it, or try to communicate what 'our' user stories are or why its important to us

Well pretty sure there were more comments from the dev which are gone now, but might be just my bad mood seeing bad stuff.

So, I'll leave it for now, and as token of apology will give...

!!/pizza Tink

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 there's many comments from users that are gone now, that are terrible too

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 No such command 'pizza'.

:(

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 For your peace of mind: There are 91 deleted comments there now, and the only one from Aaron that's deleted is a 'my bad' in response to a now deleted comment :P

Also... blugh pizza :P

@Aibobot I know, but I talk about how the dev reacted even before bad comments were posted. Again, maybe I'm just wrong.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Well - the bad comments and anger started early on

and I wonder, and people will tar and feature me for this ...

if comment locks on these posts would be a good idea

@Aibobot bad idea, people will find worse ways to show their anger, e.g. answers, or comments on other posts by same user.

We can moderate answers more effectively

Comments on other posts are unambigiously bad :D

Answers can't be totally gone for ordinary users with high rep, like comments can.

Well nothing is really gone

But comments are 'cheap'

and in this case the pile on is pretty.... massive

We're not optimising for pearls, or constructive critique

We're generating massive amounts of... eww... noise

I've dropped a comment there yesterday... but if I come back in two days and there's noise again, I am locking it :D

In this case, I'm about as much to blame as the noisy people... That post has been up for almost a week now, and I didn't keep on top of the comments, set no example, let no-one know they were being noisy before things got this out of hand...

@Tinkeringbell I thought I was on top of it but I guess not 😁

:P

I should speak for myself, not for everyone ;) I edited that message before you replied already to fix that ;)

I mean with hundreds of comments, even following the post.... It's a bit of a slog

'hundreds'... I've only done the question, not the answers, but that one isn't even over 150 comments :P

😁

'even'

Well it's nowhere near hundreds :P

I tried following featured MSE posts, fortunately(?) the "follow" notifications are not pushed to the mobile app...

mobile app.... is it like mammoth?

@rene or going to edit later....

@rene you can contact Julia herself.

Send? :P

@JourneymanGeek even if she'll edit, she can't undelete. Poor Julia. ;)

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 pretty sure it wasn't that big

@M.A.R. the app?

Mhm

Afternoon

I'm just up from a nap so I can't come up with something sarcastic to say.

@M.A.R. no nap for you then!

I recognize her!

@Rob Obviously her name is iStock

Those are face tattoos.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 lol

@Rob made with organic ink, by nature.

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 From the parotoid glands.

@Rob self replenishing.

Like the mammoth.

@Rob less hairs.

@Rob nice dog though.

Less has more.

Even mighty SE using LESS

So it's not uSE-LESS

Uh... posting random people's FB accounts is rather creepy

Even as a joke

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 and sister:

@JourneymanGeek why? If someone chose to make their Facebook profile as public it means they're OK with anyone seeing it. No?

@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Well - context matters. Its public for people who know them to find them

There's a more polite way to word an objection.

Not random people linking it

@Rob and kinda drawing the lines of what's not ok at the same time.

And I do think its kinda creepy, and there's no sugar coating that.

@Rob "Stop doing that now". There. :P

@JourneymanGeek meh, not important enough. Let's move on to my Daily Trivia... :D

Let's skip that too.

:(

skipping to tommorow

I need to come up with birthday presents to ask for... anyone have any good ideas? XD

@Rob oh my .... god

@Rob is that the infamous reverse mullet?

@Tinkeringbell Do you want them to suffer? In that case... PS5. Good luck finding one.

I don't want them to suffer, and I don't need a PS5 XD

I guess I'll just ask for going out for dinner or something.

@Tinkeringbell Something for your new flat that you haven't already got?

@DavidPostill Like? :P Most of the smaller (cheaper) stuff I already have or I am waiting to buy until I'm actually there because I don't know where I would store it until the move. The more expensive stuff is also bigger and can't be easily stored (like, where do leave a washing machine?!)

@Tinkeringbell a dual-grid, high-power waffle iron with the Meta logo and the ability to use Google Assistant?

Hmmm.

Maaaaybe :D

+ a nice fat bounty ;)

Nah, bounties are just... you can get those anyday.

fair point. But a waffle iron like that would be yooo-nique!

Prestige

@SPArcheon That's nuts

@JourneymanGeek I mean... I think the PS5 option was better, but then she mentioned a dinner...

Let it at least be a prestige dinner.

...... talking about bird deluxe food, @Slate magically appears.

Seeds... munch.

sdc seeds Slate

@Ollie No such command 'seeds'.

Bird Deluxe Food or Deluxe Bird Food?

@JourneymanGeek context is everything.

Well not Food Bird Deluxe!

Deluxe Food Bird?

Not that either

Deluxe Bird Waffles.

@SPArcheon Actually, I like nuts so that's not too bad. Better than a PS5 at least ;)

Probably sort-of healthy too!

@Tinkeringbell Problem solved, you ask for the PS5, send it to me and I will send you back a big bag of nuts, peanuts, hazelnut, almonds...

Everyone is happy.

How big a bag of nuts....

I mean, that would mean some of the worth in nuts is lost in shipping and such... so I guess I prefer to just get my money's worth of nuts.

@JourneymanGeek People here are discussing my comments. ;)

Hello. :)

o/

o\

o/

@Tinkeringbell I added this comment because it is actually the worst UI I've seen in my life as a developer. I don't know where Stack Exchange comes up with this great inspiration. If they want to learn, they can start by looking at [Dribbble] (dribbble.com) for example, there are many great examples of profile pages. They can start by looking at the work of others.

Then start drafting the idea, then create a good UI. In fact, suddenly posting changes to a platform where millions of people use it every day is unhelpful behaviour. Just imagine that you wake up in the morning and then you are surprised that you see a completely changed the design of the profile page.

And they expect people to say "Wow, what a great UI. Lots of white space walking around." This is a useless behavior, they should create a meta post that says "We are planning to redesign the profile page; provide feedback." That would be ten times better than direct posting of changes.

^ Sorry if I am rude, but this is the reality. :)

@KevinM.Mansour Looks like you haven't seen the dashboard for AWS then :)

it is improving at least

@MetaAndrewT. Sorry, I don't understand. :)

@KevinB Improving what?

@KevinM.Mansour well, for me, SE's profile page is far better than Amazon AWS dashboard...

AWS's ui

@MetaAndrewT. :)

I'd much rather incremental improvements than what's happened here

@KevinB Yes, that would be also better than completely posting a whole change but also taking feedback from the community would be also good. :)

i don't quite get what is so... horrible about sharing "Visited 3189 days, 4 consecutive"

or why it's not on a separate line

The consecutive number has never been public, FWIW.

@KevinB Even I liked the sentence that show when your about me is empty. "Apparently, this user prefers to keep an air of mystery about them."

@KevinM.Mansour First off, you're kinda barking up the wrong tree here, as I'm just a mod and don't work for SE... but what you're saying here is already much more elaborate than the original comment... which was kinda my point :P

All I can add is, instead of saying 'This is the worst I've ever seen', use those great examples you have from Dribbble, list what you find great about them, provide constructive feedback (not just what you hate, but also what you would like instead then!) and you're probably going to be heard and taken much more serious than when you just say 'Worst UI I've ever seen'.

@KevinM.Mansour At the very least it made it clear that the profile was blank instead of something not showing up / invisible.

Why put effort into feedback that's going to be ignored

@KevinM.Mansour And I'm pretty sure no one expected people to say that XD The meta post is your place to provide feedback in cases like pages being made responsive: There are a lot of things that are better off rolled out, so you can see them and find the bugs...

@KevinB If you don't shoot, you'll always miss. If you don't want to put in effort, fine, but you also don't get to complain.

@KevinB They've gotten better about not ignoring feedback. Don't assume off the bat that it'll be ignored.

@Tinkeringbell Many people added feedback, so my feedback won't be effective. They don't listen for people who have 100K reputation points, so they won't even look at 227 reputation point user. :)

@KevinM.Mansour I started with 227 points once... I didn't have that much more when I posted this and it was changed so....

I can tell you it's less likely to achieve the same goal had I written 'Worst CoC I've ever seen, too much room for trolls' in a comment :P

@Tinkeringbell Did they roll back the new Code of Conduct? :)

@KevinM.Mansour Nope... and to be honest, even a rollback wouldn't have achieved anything because 'Don't use language that alienates people based on X, Y, Z etcetera' was always there. :P

The change itself could've been much, much, much less controversial if it was rolled out in a more proper way.

The answer I linked was made when they discussed replacing the old "be-nice" with a Code of Conduct.

Giving Aaron the benefit of the doubt, it definitely seems to me that SE didn't realise how badly people would react to this. I think they expected some people to complain about how they dislike the new UI, because people always dislike change, but that overall, it'd just be a normal change, that wouldn't require more feedback than most. Unfortunately, it seems they misjudged that, and are working to fix the bugs, readd the unexpectedly popular things removed and so on

In fact, I'd imagine that if Last Seen/Member For weren't removed, this would've gotten a few downvotes from people who dislike the amount of whitespace, then it would've been "forgotten"

I think they purposely removed some things, with the intention of adding them back once the complaints rolled in. I'd rather believe that than they were just that clueless.

@Tinkeringbell So, your feedback (your post) were not effective. If you've created a post that has earned a million reputations bounty, nothing will change. Why spend hours drafting a post and nothing will change? If I don't waste my time writing a post, I'll write an answer on Stack Overflow that will get three upvotes and at least help someone. ;)

@Tinkeringbell A comment is my best. :)

Clueless is a bit harsh imo. People react in unpredictable ways, and I think SE just lost the coin toss here. It happens, and I commend them for trying to address and fix the biggest complaints, rather than sweeping them under the rug. Not everyone will like the new UI, but that's a fact of life

@Mithical True.

@KevinM.Mansour No, my feedback was effective! Like I said, this was the post discussing moving from be nice to the first version of a Code of Conduct. Not the 'new' Code of Conduct that sparked so much controversy in late '19, the one that people still want to see 'rolled back'.

@KevinM.Mansour Then I'm afraid you're going to have a hard time effecting any change... but good luck! :)

@KevinB Well that's kinda harsh, that would make me 'that clueless' too since I did not know people used that calendar and last seen for their moderation purposes, or account age.

(regular users, that is.... Account age I can see as something slightly useful to moderators... but given how little I actually use it, I also wouldn't have expected regular users to use it much/at all)

@Tinkeringbell I don't understand the stuff of Code of Conduct because I wasn't there anyway but great that you affected something...

i don't use that, it's not the metric i'm referring to. it's the "Member for n Years" metric

@Tinkeringbell Thank you. :)

it's the equivalent of "Hey lets not show the user's reputation on their profile page"

@KevinM.Mansour Well if you want the short history... when I came here in 2017, this site had 'be nice'. Sometime around 2018, they started discussing having something a bit more formal, a code of conduct (which is what that answer I just linked was about). They rolled out the CoC. Then in 2019 they clarified that code of conduct, but also de-modded a moderator and stuff at the same time so everything went downhill :P

you missed the first two welcoming wagons

amazon.co.uk/Parrot-Hardback-Notebook-Creativity-Spiral/dp/…

@Tinkeringbell

Or

@KevinB Eh, the welcoming wagons were... bleh :P Idealistic ideas that fell far short while implementing... and why two? I recall a blog post but not much more.

@DavidPostill Hah! Both are pretty :) I should not have too many pretty notebooks though, because I always find it hard to actually use them.

(Also, I'd prefer to avoid Amazon in favor of Dutch (web)shops that don't send dicks to space) :D

Touché, I think.

😢

@Tinkeringbell So before 2018, there was no Code of Conduct, just Be nice?

what we had before 2018 just wasn't called a code of conduct

@KevinM.Mansour Yep. The long history is in the question itself: meta.stackexchange.com/q/312038/369802

but it had the same function of setting up expectations of how users should act/participate

Hopefully, I didn't come here in 2019. :)

@Tinkeringbell Thank you. :)

@Tinkeringbell wasn't there another post with the full dramma history somewhere? Not just that single incident.

@SPArcheon Again... this wasn't related to that drama history at all....

what isn't

Yes, flag those pls ^

@Philippe It looks like you weren't lying about this. I was looking at one of the job postings and...

@Spevacus I still can't grasp how '20 days paid vacation' is somehow ok to people XD

better'n 14, with 7 of them being company directed

though... tbf, those 7 that are company directed are xmas -> new years, so can't really complain about that

@Tinkeringbell I don't really know this, but from how people often talk it seems to me that 20 days might actually be above average for the US. Which is of course weird if you're in a country where 25-30 days is the norm

@KevinB Wait what??? If you get that little, that really sucks yeah.

Given how strong the US has been historically for workers' rights, it's shocking how bad they are now

a race to the bottom

@MadScientist Yep... I have 28 for just me each year, 2 that you can only take at 'special' days (for example, liberation day isn't an official free day here, but some clients close their businesses for that day, so you'd be expected to take one of those 2 days at that point). And then there's holidays.... I know there's a difference, I just can't grasp how people are okay with that difference :P

a senator recently proposed eliminating minimum wage

@KevinB What's the idea behind that? That bosses can pay workers less, so create more jobs, and then have more people take up three jobs to exist, instead of one?

likely just a thumb in the eye of those pushing for higher minimum wage

(i don't have the actual reasoning, didn't dig into it that far)

Wouldn't surprise me if it was something under the guise of "deregulating business"

It sounds like a great country.... to return home from after a vacation :)

One could even make the argument that it's the greatest country in the world... to return home from after a vacation :P

eh

iunno about that, with cases rising like they are

Fair, if you go now you might never make it back! It's the ultimate vacation for thrill seekers! :P

look at that pretty curve

Florida hospitalisations look even scarier

Yikes! (though The Netherlands recently had a very similar one, it's slowly going back down now)

we've had 0 ICU beds available state-wide for a week now

Ugh, darn Google... sorry, can't get that white thingy to go away.

@Tinkeringbell ourworldindata.org/explorers/…

May be me, but those aren't the best contrasting colors for a graph, if you ask me.

I've sort of given up with covid at this point. Like, I still wear a mask and give dirty looks at people who don't understand the concept of personal space, and I'm getting my second jab in a couple of weeks. But I no longer care about the numbers, and whatever the government is bsing about, and anything else past what I'm doing to be safe

The vaccination curve for Spain is very impressive

Ours is kinda shameful now

@Tinkeringbell which stage of the Tour the France was that?

@rene Probably that one with all the falls :P

crashes? falls? What are they called in cycling? XD

@rene There's a Netherlands flag there, and they don't have any mountains ;-)

We’re close to having mask mandates banned by the state

@Dudecoinheringaahing I give up as soon as the numbers go down, and I start keeping track again when they rise a few days in a row :P Mostly though, I do wear my mask, I've had my vaccinations, and I wash my hands.

@MadScientist the colours looked right ...

@KevinB Yeah I read that.... what kind of ?!@#$*%$ comes up with that idea XD

@rene "Col de Covid"

@Tinkeringbell People who are raised to believe that they have the freedom to do anything they want, and anyone who says otherwise is a commie

I'm waiting for the Omega variant to finish us off

@MadScientist Hey, the climate report predicts more floods, there was a huge locust in our yard last week, there's a worldwide plague... I'm getting worried I might need to start going back to church.

Not just predicting more floods, we had some really bad ones a few weeks ago

@Dudecoinheringaahing Sounds appropriate XD

@Tinkeringbell I've found that depressive nihilism is a good coping strategy

florida and texas already banned them if i'm understanding correctly... but cities are defying it

@MadScientist Yeah, true. Same 'here' (on the other side of the country)

Either that, or distracting myself with Code Golf and other StackExchange things :P

@KevinB Yep, I read as much. Stay as safe as you can...

@Dudecoinheringaahing The internet is a good distraction, as are games, books and life stuff that isn't a pandemic.

(though the life stuff that isn't a pandemic isn't necessarily better than the life stuff that is a pandemic)

@Tinkeringbell Ironically, I've been using the board game Pandemic as a distraction :P

civ6 needs pandemics

The really positive part is that the vaccines are very effective against severe illness and death. So if you're vaccinated (and not in a risk group where the vaccine might not work well), your personal risk is very low now

Me and my family can consistently beat it when there's 5 epidemics, but we're still working on 6 :P

@MadScientist Yeah, apparently it doesn't work that well if you're still obese :( Still working on that though, just like the last 10 years XD

🚽

Yep :P That sums up this talk ;)

@Tinkeringbell Yeah in the US this is pretty common >:(

few years ago we had 3 weeks, but one of the 3 weeks was unpaid

basically, we were furloughed, but allowed to choose when to use it

was nice having the extra week

That's hilarious in a depressing way.

prior to that the 5 furlough days were company chosen

usually in months with no holidays

The early studies find that two dose vaccines require the second dose in order to provide some protection for the variants; there's not enough studies but that's what was found in common. Source: week old article: healthline.com/health-news/…

🚽

@Tinkeringbell this is a problem many colonies had 😁

oof

I meant woof