Tavern on the Meta

Spevacus

1:33 AM

@SonictheMaskedWerehog Nice answer on that reputation cap question.

Journeyman Geek

2:41 AM

local elections are looking interesting

a lot of retirements in the ruling party, including some pretty popular old timers

Lee Kuan Yew's other son joined an opposition party and may stand in his old ward (his other son is PM)

2 of the 3 candidates from 2 presidential elections ago are in - one sat out the last parlimentary elections...

the other dissolved his old party and basically joined a more established party that's got no seats but has been doing a good job with outreach

→ 16 messages moved to Chimney

Journeyman Geek

3:11 AM

hm

PAP (the ruling party) has masks with logos :D

(Y'all don't mind me jawing over elections right?)

Spevacus

4:27 AM

Occasionally googling what you're talking about :) I don't mind, chat's been kinda relaxed today.

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek I very much mind it

I have no idea which country it's for

And I don't see anything inflammatory or hostile about any party

Can't Singaporians be rude for a change?

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. elbonia! Where all the votes are for the mud party

@M.A.R. oh maaaaan

One of the ruling party candidate was railroaded out by citizens

mothership.sg/2020/06/ivan-lim-video-statement

M.A.R.

4:44 AM

@JourneymanGeek If anything, that reaffirms my statement

Look at the beloved POTUS. I bet the allegations he receives in an hour are more than what your candidate received

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. but but

It wasn't party character assassination!

Vincent Wijeysingha

Dr. Vincent Wijeysingha (born 2 May 1970) is an academic, civil activist and politician from Singapore. He was a member of the opposition Singapore Democratic Party (SDP) 2010 to 2013. He served as the party's Treasurer and stood as a parliamentary candidate for the party 2011 general election. He was Singapore's first openly gay politician. == Early life and education == Dr Vincent Wijeysingha was born in 2 May 1970. His father is the educator Eugene Wijeysingha, who is a former principal of Temasek Junior College (1980-1985) and Raffles Institution (1986-1994).Dr Wijeysingha studied at Victoria...

the ruling party did this.

It was... something I felt was crap

and god. The ruling party candidates sound like school kids reciting a essay

No rallys this time cause of covid

which makes me sad

political rallies are the best part of elections

lol

there's someone wiping down the mic between candidates

M.A.R.

5 mins ago, by M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek If anything, that reaffirms my statement

Journeyman Geek

With Ivan Lim...

Literally people went

"Damn, I cannot abide in that man being an MP"

M.A.R.

And it's so odd that your first names are Western and your last names are . . . those.

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. Oh, people often have western/christian names cause of religion or simplicity

some of which are wierd

M.A.R.

5:00 AM

@Journey @Tink FYI, you've been slammed on Skeptics Meta: skeptics.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/4583/… In case you haven't seen it. I shared it since you have the right to know if you're called out

LangLangC is often cool, but this was rather uncool :/

Hmm, maybe not Tink, Tink was away for most of the thing (or all of it?)

Journeyman Geek

I was away for the start of it.

@M.A.R. I feel like its better that we don't address it directly

it will get ugly

Tinkeringbell

5:32 AM

@M.A.R. Eh, I think I was the first to return to modding here after the Monica thing (don't know how much Chris did in the meantime, he may have continued). I took the long break after the stuff with Shog and Robert.

@JourneymanGeek Yep. Even though it's Skeptics, I doubt some sourced claims are going to make things better ;)

rene

5:45 AM

Bummer, I was hoping for some achterklap ...

Journeyman Geek

google translates that to "backbutt"

rene

should have said gossip ...

Journeyman Geek

@rene not much gossip

though now I am curious to whether the dutch have frontbutt or sidebutt

Sonic the Masked Werehog

@JourneymanGeek Interestingly, Bing translates that to "rear blow"

Journeyman Geek

... fart?

Tinkeringbell

6:09 AM

@JourneymanGeek There's voorbips.

but it's rather childish :P

Journeyman Geek

:D

amd backbutt isn't?

Tinkeringbell

Oh, sure is :P

though I'm honestly not sure where google gets the butt from. klap means something like blow or clap.

Journeyman Geek

6:24 AM

\o/

I don't speak any dutch

Tinkeringbell

Luckily, I do :P

rene

@Tinkeringbell wasn't that word made popular by Theo & Thea?

Tinkeringbell

No clue... Might be :)

rene

Hmm, tells my age .. :/

Tinkeringbell

@rene No worries. I think the entire room already knew :P

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

6:58 AM

@JourneymanGeek can also be slap in the rear...

@M.A.R you.... changed!

Deleted scene.... surely you got a point in there....

If you're Tom, who is Jerry? @M.A.R

Or are you still looking for your Jerry?

Mithical

~.O

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@Mithical is this your way to nominate yourself? ;)

@Tinkeringbell easy! @rene is 6-8 old.

Mithical

~.~

z.z

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

b.B

Fun fact: my name is טשישה. :D

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizardWearingMask You got the old part right ;)

Rob

7:04 AM

@JourneymanGeek There is also backdraft - whoomf!

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@Tinkeringbell :P

@Rob not really Dutch

Rob

Jan 6 at 20:45, by Rob

Physics is different, where they are.

rene

@Tinkeringbell Oi! be nice, right?

Tinkeringbell

@rene I'm always nice!

Nice is my last name XD

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

No worry @rene, age doesn't affect you. :D

Tink Nice

Found you!! flickr.com/photos/139574572@N04 :-P so you're in the middle?

Journeyman Geek

7:26 AM

→ 3 messages moved to Chimney

Rob

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Also, Jim Carey recreated that in "Lloyd's scene with fire".

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

7:41 AM

Jim is a good guy.

Rob

8:24 AM

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Jim is Jim

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

He looks upset. What did you do to him?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

8:56 AM

@SmokeDetector k

Rob

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Amongst other things, he is being pulled towards a hostile planet: youtu.be/tLATrB2URCU

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

9:11 AM

@Rob he can always say "No"

Rob

Jim wouldn't do that!

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

So he can't complain when being pulled towards hostile planets.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

10:06 AM

eating second Baci

(got a package for free when buying coffee)

@Bart you like Baci?

I can share, there are about 6 left.

rene

He likes BaCo

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

?

Bacogen?

oh it's Bakugan so no.

Tinkeringbell

@rene That'd surprise me...

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

ohh

> Baco is a Celtic god, invoked by Gauls and attested on inscriptions found in the areas of Chalon-sur-Saône and Eauze.[1] His name indicates that he was probably a boar-god, of whom many are recorded in the Celtic world.

buh all pics are NSFW so can't post here.

Why ancient people didn't put clothes on the statues?! :D

rene

10:26 AM

@Tinkeringbell tbh, me too.

M.A.R.

11:40 AM

@JourneymanGeek I'm not saying that you should or shouldn't address it, just that it was a post talking about you and everyone has the right to know that

@ShadowWizardWearingMask What? My avatar? No, it wasn't a deleted scene for me

Feeds

Podcast 248: You can’t pay taxes if the website won’t load

Ben Popper on June 30, 2020

What happens when your face and fingerprint start to unlock the World Wide Web?

DavidPostill

How many face recognition systems work if you are wearing a COVID mask? :)

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill All of them

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

Deleted Scene Of Tom And Jerry

►

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. Really?

M.A.R.

11:50 AM

A YouTube video title is your source?

@DavidPostill I'm being tongue-in-cheek of course

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@M.A.R. 100% reliable

M.A.R.

Literally. I have this dark chocolate melting at the corner of my mouth

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@DavidPostill gcn.com/articles/2020/06/03/facial-recognition-masks.aspx

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizardWearingMask 100% re-lie-able

DavidPostill

And how many fingerprint recognition systems work if your a wearing protective latex gloves?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

11:51 AM

@M.A.R. ex-cell-ent

M.A.R.

If you delete a scene from a short movie, what else remains?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@M.A.R. 60%?

@DavidPostill 0

There's a limit... ;)

@M.A.R. 6-8 other scenes

But where did you take it from?

DavidPostill

@ShadowWizardWearingMask That would probably not work very well for me. I wear glasses and if I wear a mask as well my glasses steam up. I suspect my eyes are not very visible (If I can't see out the camera can't see in) and that would confuse any facial recognition system

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizardWearingMask dunno but it's not horribly bitter so it's not really pure

@ShadowWizardWearingMask IMDB

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. Its still a decision I need to make :D

M.A.R.

11:55 AM

@JourneymanGeek Meh, I came by it late enough, it's probably going to be dormant until it disappears

Journeyman Geek

which might be for the best

M.A.R.

Anyone on their right mind can see the slander is biased.

Journeyman Geek

thank you for letting us know tho

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@DavidPostill so let's hope you're not a terrorist.... :P

M.A.R.

I dunno about left-minded people

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

11:56 AM

@M.A.R. my fav is 70%

M.A.R.

To mix with coffee?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@M.A.R. no no

I put only ice cream inside coffee.

Journeyman Geek

99%

ANything else is weak

anything more is cocoa

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

Chocolate cubes/bar is to be consumed per-demand along with the coffee, not inside it.

(usually two cubes are enough for one cup, for me.)

@M.A.R. I'm left handed

DavidPostill

@ShadowWizardWearingMask I once got thoroughly checked coming back from the Middle East to the UK. I had a very dark sun tan and had let my hair (this was back in the days when I had hair) and beard grow for nearly six months so I looked nothing like my passport photo...

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

12:00 PM

@DavidPostill LOL

And? Locked up? ;)

I got the "ssss" in USA airports few times.

41

Q: What does "SSSS" on my boarding pass mean?

When I checked in for my American Airlines flight from Costa Rica back to the States, I noticed that my boarding pass had "SSSS" printed across the top left corner. Nobody else in my party had this on their boarding pass, and I didn't notice that I was treated differently at the airport (securit...

DavidPostill

@ShadowWizardWearingMask No, but it took way longer than the normal quick glance at the passport at border control. IIRC they took about 1/2 hour to check with my company and probably elsewhere as well (I had been on a work trip).

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@DavidPostill lucky for you.... if you were on private/personal trip, it probably could take much longer.... ;)

DavidPostill

Indeed :)

Rob

1:33 PM

@ShadowWizardWearingMask It would make them blue.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@Rob how?

Rob

Definition: Blue - Unhappy

Spevacus

6

Q: Feedback post: New moderator reinstatement and appeal process revisions

We have not made any significant changes to the current moderator reinstatement policy since it was released. Though it has functioned well for the cases to which it was applied, we acknowledge that the Community has some concerns that need to be addressed (especially given events of the end of 2...

discussion featured moderators announcements reinstatement

\o/

Rob

Veiled reference to:
🔵🔵

Tinkeringbell

@Spevacus party time! :D

Spevacus

1:38 PM

\o\ |o| /o/

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@Rob oh. But who will be unhappy? I doubt people looking on nude statues are happy about it. And the statue itself might feel some shame too. :D

@Rob not related...or is it?

@Tinkeringbell Ellis Time!

Rob

:D

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@Tink you probably know.... what's "CM1"?

(pretty sure it was explained at some point, when I didn't pay attention.)

Mithical

it makes sense if you refer to meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336175/…

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

Yup

Tinkeringbell

1:52 PM

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Community Manager The First :P

Honorable title given to whichever CM has the honor of being the first one involved in the process ;)

Spevacus

CLT confused me at first glance, but Luuklag thankfully put in an edit that describes what the acronym means.

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, so many acronyms!

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

PM is the most confusing.

Spevacus

Previous Moderator.

First line in Scenario 1.

Bit of a weird acronym but hey

Vishesh Mangla

Hello, meta.stackexchange.com/questions/32625/…

Can someone tell if it is even not possible now or is it?

Tinkeringbell

1:54 PM

@Spevacus Yeah, couldn't think of a better one either. FM sounds like radio :P

Spevacus

Former Moderator sounds a lot better than Prime Minist- I mean, Previous Moderator :D

Mithical

Why abbreviate it? Just say "former moderator"

Spevacus

@VisheshMangla If you're asking whether a feature was added to easily copy code markdown'd text, then there hasn't been.

Consider dropping a bounty on it. :)

Vishesh Mangla

I 'm too poor to put bounty on it.

Spevacus

Well that's okay, you can try some extensions, like this answer recommends.

Vishesh Mangla

1:59 PM

Oh that was the second post, I saw it but didn't read it. Thanks for the help.

Spevacus

No problem! Happy coding!

Vishesh Mangla

Happy Coding!

Rob

2:35 PM

Mindfulness

Mindfulness is the psychological process of purposely bringing one's attention to experiences occurring in the present moment without judgment, which one develops through the practice of meditation and through other training. Mindfulness derives from sati, a significant element of Buddhist traditions, and based on Zen, Vipassanā, and Tibetan meditation techniques. Though definitions and techniques of mindfulness are wide-ranging, Buddhist traditions explain what constitutes mindfulness such as how past, present and future moments arise and cease as momentary sense impressions and mental phenomena...

Tinkeringbell

3:56 PM

@Rob I do wonder why people need to learn to do that on purpose

DavidPostill

4:17 PM

@Tinkeringbell Because 99.99% of people live in the past and think about the future. They are not actively in the present moment and if they are they are viewing it via the Ego which is constantly judging.

Mindfulness as achieved in mediation is probably better named as the state of no-mind. Our minds are dominated by Ego and to enter what is sometimes called Satori requires letting go of everything. Our Ego is the biggest obstacle to that, via the Mind.

Rob

@Tinkeringbell Agreed, and I'm not convinced that one needs to "meditate" either; it would seem that knowing to pay attention would be a given, alas this is something that must be explained (and apparently meditated upon and studied - thus feeding the fire, or extinguishing it; depending on which side of the coin). A less 'meditation / religious' explanation: mindfulnessstudies.com/mindfulness

The principle is good, the presentation leaves something to be desired; it might lead some to be dismissive of it as a bunch of ....

Tinkeringbell

@DavidPostill Really, that many? Or do you have a side business selling mindfulness courses?

@Rob I mean, I have heard of people learning this and it apparently helping them... It just seems like something most people do all the time, live in the present without judgment

DavidPostill

4:36 PM

@Tinkeringbell No side business. Just look at members of the general public. If someone is insulted what do they do? They immediately throw insults back. That is the Ego defending itself. If someone is criticised what do they do? They immediately defend themselves. It is human nature to behave that way.

@Tinkeringbell Now think about groups of people. They are judging people who are not in their group whether consciously or unconsciously. We are better than them. We are jealous of them because they have more x,y,z. Everybody does that.

Tinkeringbell

@DavidPostill yeah, and just yesterday there was a court case about two boys whose fireworks started a fatal fire, and the judgment was that they weren't going to be punished further because they were living in the present without judgment, without thinking of consequences

DavidPostill

It is very difficult to step outside of those learned behaviour patterns

Tinkeringbell

It's... not?

Rob

Not everyone. For example: I know this couple who went on a vacation, decided to drive through several States. After they got to the third State (almost halfway) they got lost for a couple of hours. Well, they had to turn back. Now all future trips must be planned to avoid travel through that State, even if it involves a huge detour. Every several years they share their knowledge, of the dangers of driving through there, a plague to be avoided at all costs! --- WTF!

Tinkeringbell

But I guess either statement is a judgment too, which mindfulness forbids ;)

DavidPostill

4:43 PM

Living in mindfulness without judgement does not mean living life unaware of consequences but quite the opposite. If you are mindful you are aware of every action you take and it is taken deliberately with awareness of the consequences.

Tinkeringbell

That's not what the wiki excerpt said

Mindfulness is the psychological process of purposely bringing one's attention to experiences occurring in the present moment without judgment

DavidPostill

@Tinkeringbell If you think it not then either you are already enlightened or your ego is saying it is easy. Which is more likely?

Tinkeringbell

No clue but it seems you've already judged it's one of em.

Rob

The Wikipedia, or any single source, has some shortcomings ...

> The principle is good, the presentation leaves something to be desired

DavidPostill

@Tinkeringbell I'm not judging at all. I'm pointing out possibilities.

@Rob Yeah, that.

Tinkeringbell

4:48 PM

Yeah well I have better things to not do than hunting down 20 sources and figure out the shortcomings of Wikipedia, the place that's supposedly the amalgamation of those 20 sources anyways.

@DavidPostill Great! Then you're mindful too and either of those two applies to you too ;)

Rob

We have a Tag for that™: psychology.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/mindfulness

DavidPostill

@Tinkeringbell I believe (and clearly that my ego speaking) that I am or have been mindful some of the time. It is hard to maintain that state all of the time. It is something to practice and aim for.

Rob

^ ✔️

Tinkeringbell

@Rob Ah, great. Something to blacklist XD

DavidPostill

A state of no judgment is very different to a state of no awareness. They are not the same thing. In some ways being less judgemental leads to more awareness

Rob

4:53 PM

Unmindfulness, as opposed to the other way of saying it.

A lifetime of meditation and learning, captured by a simple sign.

DavidPostill

@Rob I prefer Mind vs No Mind. I may be biased as I have read and listened to many of the discourses of Osho. And to out myself I took (or rather was given) Sannyas on a retreat in Italy in 2006.

I have a Sannyas name (which I rarely use outside of people in the know) as it raises the question why did you change your name along with the time wasted explaining why which most people just don't get :)

@Rob And on buddhism.stackexchange.com/questions/tagged/mindfulness where there are many more questions with the tag :)

Rob

5:13 PM

@DavidPostill While not a practitioner I find a lot offered by Buddhism, example: Liberation.

Karma

Karma (; Sanskrit: कर्म, romanized: karma, IPA: [ˈkɐɽmɐ] (listen); Pali: kamma) means action, work or deed; it also refers to the spiritual principle of cause and effect where intent and actions of an individual (cause) influence the future of that individual (effect). Good intent and good deeds contribute to good karma and happier rebirths, while bad intent and bad deeds contribute to bad karma and bad rebirths.The philosophy of karma is closely associated with the idea of rebirth in many schools of Indian religions (particularly Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism) as well as Taoism. In these...

M.A.R.

@Rob Karma is an impossible 3D object?

John Dvorak

5:29 PM

It's an ordinary Celtic knot.

... off-brand Celtic knot :D

DavidPostill

@Rob Many of Osho's discourses are based on the Sutras of Buddha, explaining them in a way that can be understood (that is not the correct word, perhaps assimilated is better) in the modern age. These sutras were given in in 500 BC and not written down till 200 BC ...

@Rob If you have the time and interest here are some of his discourses on no mind

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill Get out of town! Ego died in Guardians Vol. 2

Rob

@M.A.R. All ancient religions are an early attempt to explain the way things work, even modern science can't explain much; but science is my religion - the explanation I prefer.

M.A.R.

What are you on about. Science can't be religion.

user400654

why not

John Dvorak

5:38 PM

Many people's belief system is based entirely around assimilating the opinions of people with degrees.

M.A.R.

Because it doesn't tackle morality.

user400654

> a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance

Rob

@M.A.R. Practice mindfulness, the subject of this conversation. I used italics.

John Dvorak

Quite a few people ascribe supreme importance to their degrees, too ;)

M.A.R.

I assure you my mind is so ful I can't fit anything else in or I have to forget something

@JohnDvorak Hey, my body temperature is my business

John Dvorak

5:40 PM

I mean academic degrees, not body temperature.

M.A.R.

I know

John Dvorak

Anyways, false. if your body temperature exceeds 37 degrees Celsius, you aren't allowed on my premises

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. Religion doesn't either. It imposes a version of morality on people as preached by those supposedly in the know (representives of $deity) with appropriate penalties for not believing (which vary according the the religion). Religion can be considered to be a form of slavery.

M.A.R.

Then having to fasten your seat belt would also be a form of slavery.

Not everything that restricts freedom is slavery.

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. It is, but one which actually makes sense.

John Dvorak

5:45 PM

@DavidPostill in which case, macroevolution does the same - no god, no rules.

If you're an atheist, the only thing that matters in the long run is how many babies you have - and to a lesser degree, how many humans are there asymptotically in total, and you don't have any control about the latter.

DavidPostill

Definition of slavery

1a : the practice of slaveholding
b : the state of a person who is a chattel of another
2 : **submission to a dominating influence**

I think definition 2 applies to religion, but that is my personal belief.

John Dvorak

everyone is submitted to some dominating influence.

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill I'm not gonna sit down and have a philosophical discussion on whether some, or either of them make sense, and I know very few people in the world have the capacity to do so until they reach a truth. What I know is the unbelieving atheist sees the atrocities committed in the name of or justified by religion, and not the good that has been done in the name of religion, which outweighs it ten-fold in my opinion.

John Dvorak

I'm not an atheist though, so I do care about welfare of others.

M.A.R.

And it's entirely possible not to condone the atrocities and still have faith in said religion, even though I don't consider myself particularly religious.

John Dvorak

5:49 PM

@M.A.R. If your religion commits atrocities, I recommend you to switch!

Bryan Krause

As an atheist, I'd have to agree that the "good done in the name of religion" is not something I consider very frequently, but I'd also argue strongly against it existing in any large measure

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill I think then, that definition two would apply to many other things as well, and it's not restrictive.

Bryan Krause

Especially once you remove any good that is done by basic common decency that isn't actually related to the religion that tries to claim it

M.A.R.

@JohnDvorak I think it's impossible to believe in an old faith that has not committed atrocities at one time or another.

John Dvorak

basic common decency is neither basic nor common

M.A.R.

5:51 PM

Buddhism? Give me a break.

John Dvorak

@M.A.R. I know of one, actually

Bryan Krause

Nor does it require the veil of religion

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. I am not referring to atrocities. I'm referring to the molding of peoples minds and beliefs by religion. They are bound (voluntarily or not) by the rules of the religion.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

seeing religion, expecting room cleanup in 10... 9... 8...

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. Indeed. But we were discussing religion.

John Dvorak

5:52 PM

@DavidPostill if your mind isn't molded by religion, it will be molded by the opinions of those around you

M.A.R.

@BryanKrause Well, let's say the crowd I've been raised in are more religious. I can't argue intentions but I don't have any reason to doubt that saying the good you do is because of your religious belief is any less valid than excusing your political propaganda with some church/citadel/mosque support

@DavidPostill To say it religion technically entails slavery sheds negative light on it which I consider unfair.

DavidPostill

@JohnDvorak Indeed. But you have missed the start of the whole thread. Here would be a good place to start:

3 hours ago, by Rob

Mindfulness

Mindfulness is the psychological process of purposely bringing one's attention to experiences occurring in the present moment without judgment, which one develops through the practice of meditation and through other training. Mindfulness derives from sati, a significant element of Buddhist traditions, and based on Zen, Vipassanā, and Tibetan meditation techniques. Though definitions and techniques of mindfulness are wide-ranging, Buddhist traditions explain what constitutes mindfulness such as how past, present and future moments arise and cease as momentary sense impressions and mental phenomena...

M.A.R.

That's not to say they can't be attacked by any other angle.

Bryan Krause

@M.A.R. The way I view it is that the religious aspect is irrelevant; if you do those good things because of religion then does that imply you wouldn't have done them without religion? I think that means you're kind of a bad person, and I don't think most religious people are actually bad people.'

John Dvorak

Thanks for the link

M.A.R.

5:55 PM

@BryanKrause Sure, but if the practitioner claims as such themselves? Again, we can't be sure of intentions, but I don't see why it's not valid.

@BryanKrause Is there an easy way to answer that question? Sometimes religion is seen as a moral shortcut, one that helps you do the right thing or almost the right thing without consulting two dozen books and studies on sociology.

Bryan Krause

@M.A.R. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't buy that the good deeds done by religious people should be credited to their religion. There are sufficient examples of both people abusing religion to do terrible things, and of people doing good things without crediting religion that labeling those deeds based on beliefs seems at best orthogonal to the actual motivations

2

M.A.R.

And if then we claim that faith is blind, how much do we blindly accept in life as following common sense, or "makes sense"?

Bryan Krause

My personal view is that moral shortcuts are bad things, and it's one of the things I dislike about religion

John Dvorak

Classical mechanics makes sense. Classical mechanics is wrong.

2

Bryan Krause

Doing the right thing often means understanding other people which takes a ton of work and effort

DavidPostill

5:58 PM

On the other hand Classical mechanics was never "common sense" :)

M.A.R.

@BryanKrause And I'm saying that if you ask a religious person why they did something, and they themselves credit religion, is that simply invalid because they would have done it without believing in one? How can we know that?

John Dvorak

@BryanKrause Do unto others as you want others to do unto you.

DavidPostill

@JohnDvorak Try applying that one to Jihadists and persuading them that they are wrong ...

M.A.R.

How can we know that a religious upbringing without preaching bigotry isn't responsible for the moral action of the practitioner, and they would have chosen the same path if they weren't raised that way?

John Dvorak

@DavidPostill Still a great rule in general though, isn't it?

DavidPostill

6:01 PM

@JohnDvorak Indeed :)

M.A.R.

@BryanKrause My personal view, the one I've obviously hinted at, is life without some shortcuts is impractical and apathetic.

Again, I don't consider myself religious, but I don't throw it out of the window.

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. I'm struggling to figure out why you used "showing or feeling no interest, enthusiasm, or concern." here

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill Can we do away with the definitions please? When people can't figure out if something is wrong or right, they often don't do anything about it.

This eventually turns into apathy, and is not restricted to religion.

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. Thanks for the clarification. That's why I asked.

M.A.R.

If I don't get why animal rights activists are so bummed out about whale hunting, eventually I won't care.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

6:05 PM

@BryanKrause Accepting, rather than understanding, IMHO. I don't intend to understand everyone but I do try to accept everyone.

DavidPostill

@ShadowWizardWearingMask So, playing devils advocate, do you accept Jihadists?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@DavidPostill if I'll have IRL friend who will turn Jihadist I might accept him, yes.

M.A.R.

And let's not forget the elephant in the room: I'm not claiming atheists are immoral or anything like that. If anything, they probably ponder the important questions more. But it's undeniable that some of the aversion to religion, especially in younguns like me, is because of the foolish "I wanna be able to do whatever the heck I want even if it hurts people" youthful freedom. That itself proves to me that religion is not entirely useless.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

e.g. @M.A.R and me can be actual enemies one day.

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizardWearingMask En garde

DavidPostill

6:07 PM

And back to religion, they do what they do because (apparently) their religion tells them that's what they should do.

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

(though not in battle field, I'm not enlisted for army anymore ;))

M.A.R.

I'll have you informed I roundhouse kick pretty vigorously

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Me neither

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@M.A.R. I have dirty tricks as my secret weapon. :D

M.A.R.

Trikidney people are disqualified from compulsory military service. Go figure.

@ShadowWizardWearingMask Thanks. I'll remember that then

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@M.A.R. so weird. :P

DavidPostill

6:09 PM

@ShadowWizardWearingMask That I would find it hard to do. And I'm pretty accepting of most people. But it is a slippery slope. Where do we draw the line?

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizardWearingMask don't worry, I accept you

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

@DavidPostill when the friend will come to kill me. That's the line.

M.A.R.

Though not with open arms, I need to be careful of your dirty tricks

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

Hopefully, he won't.

@M.A.R. and always look down.

DavidPostill

@ShadowWizardWearingMask So you will accept him killing other people?

Shadow Wizard Wearing Mask

6:10 PM

@DavidPostill good question, can't know until I get there. But also I can't tell in advance I'll give up on the friend at that point.

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. Easy to block :)

M.A.R.

From an absolutely hermeneutical perspective, what people often conveniently ignore is the jihadists twist a few verses to their meaning while ignoring how this interpretation contradicts many others.

Rob

Roundhouse blocked!

M.A.R.

I just think, as usual, it's a bloody excuse to murder and steal.

DavidPostill

I ankle sweep pretty vigorously and most people don't expect that one :)

M.A.R.

6:12 PM

Now if some of the lower ranks are stupid enough not to comprehend that, or they won't even think about that, that's another matter

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. I got my instructor (3rd dan) that way more than once. Feint a roundhouse and then sweep :)

Leads nicely into a bunch of takedown holds and submissions :)

M.A.R.

Well in that case, if you headlock me or anything, I can bite as well as Bruce Lee

Though there's some COVID risk, hmm

2

Q: Why does a sealed plastic bag of dish soap, water and air expand when shaken?

I've noticed that when I put dish soap, water and a little air into a sealed plastic bag, and then shake the mixture, it forms soap suds and the bag expands significantly in volume. Why does it expand?

everyday-chemistry

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. LOL

Rob

Fight Breakdown: My One BIG Mistake, Leg Kicks & Sweep Technique (Round 1)

►

Bryan Krause

@M.A.R. I'm saying that if someone does a good deed and credits their religion, I'd want to ask them whether they would have done the same if they didn't believe. If they say "no", then I question their motives: if you're nice just to avoid "Hell" are you actually nice or just selfish? But more likely they would actually say "yes" and then I'd question why religion was relevant

@ShadowWizardWearingMask I think accepting is a reasonable shortcut (and far, far better than rejecting someone outright), but one should still make some effort to understand.

Mithical

6:25 PM

3

Rob

Because the reverse could not occur.

Bryan Krause

@M.A.R. "From an absolutely hermeneutical perspective, what people often conveniently ignore is the (insert any sect here) twist a few verses to their meaning while ignoring how this interpretation contradicts many others."

DavidPostill

@Rob Nice :)

M.A.R.

@BryanKrause True that. I guess their arguments sounded really flimsy to me though is what I'm saying. Flimsier than usual.

DavidPostill

Has anybody actually managed to prove, beyond all reasonable doubt, that $deity answer their prayer?

M.A.R.

6:31 PM

@BryanKrause That's not how it's phrased usually. They don't say "I helped the poor man because I want to go to heaven/not to go to hell". And yes, that's selfish. It's often more like "because God has said we should do this, and I'm listening to him". The crux of their argument might not be all that different from how an atheist justifies it, except sprinkled with all the religious notions.

DavidPostill

Let me just say that I'm really enjoying the spirit of debate in this room. In other rooms there might have been flags flying, timeouts, suspensions.

Mithical

Tavern is like the TL but for non-mods :P

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill They probably haven't or have been all forgotten about. Then you have the Hobson's choice to dismiss the arguments. It hasn't been satisfactorily disproven either, though, AFAICT. So there's the Hobson's choice for the religious side as well.

Mithical

Also, there's the babel fish logic

> “Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."

M.A.R.

@Mithical Ugh, Hitchhiker's guide again.

DavidPostill

6:35 PM

@Mithical Hehe. I'm sure I'm not the only mod here :)

M.A.R.

Yes, that's a well-known argument. There have been refutations of it, and refutations of the refutations, and so on. Just like everything else, it looks like the aftermath of an intellectual battleground, and there's very little truth to come out of it.

@DavidPostill What @Mith is saying is essentially "M.A.R. is so awesome that his debates rarely escalate; we're really fortunate to have him here"

Bryan Krause

@M.A.R. I guess that's precisely my argument: "The crux of their argument might not be all that different from how an atheist justifies it, except sprinkled with all the religious notions." I question the value of the sprinkles, especially given the harm that religions do at the same time.

Mithical

"M.A.R. is so awesome that his debates rarely escalate; we're really fortunate to have him here"

M.A.R.

If you look at his eyes, he confirms this.

Mithical

\-(help)-(help)-/

M.A.R.

6:40 PM

@BryanKrause But to do away with it all seems rather unfeasible to me, not just because indoctrination is as old as humankind, but because people don't sit down and think about how to act morally and ethically tomorrow or the day after that.

DavidPostill

@M.A.R. I'm not going to do that. You will hypnotise me into believing anything!

Tinkeringbell

@Mithical Sorry, bit busy (goes to Rob and David as well, I had to run). Anything I can do for you from mobile?

DavidPostill

@Tinkeringbell lol. we were just joshing around.

M.A.R.

@Tinkeringbell He's trapped in the shame of his admittance of my awesomeness, mostly

Mithical

hmm? that was a joking response to M.A.R.'s "look at their eyes"

DavidPostill

6:41 PM

@Tinkeringbell chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/8447316#8447316

Tinkeringbell

@DavidPostill Eh. I don't like dropping out of discussions non announced anyways. But okay, glad to know all is still right :)

Spevacus

@DavidPostill Awesome people reside here. Welcome to the club ;)

Bryan Krause

@M.A.R. Yeah, I don't disagree that doing away with it is fairly unfeasible. I think also that I am speaking from a place of privilege as a white guy in the US; I certainly see some added value in religion for those who are minorities and/or where religion is a central point of identity that is separate from societal norms. But I would argue very strongly that people should sit down and think about moral and ethical actions

If they don't and if religion gives them an excuse not to then I see that as a bug rather than a feature

DavidPostill

@Mithical It applies to anybody's eyes. I will not be hypnotised into believing someone else's beliefs!

M.A.R.

I guess my argument is essentially that perhaps many amputations in the past could have been avoided with a simple administration of antibiotics, but, in their absence, the amputations have undoubtedly saved a lot of lives.

DavidPostill

6:43 PM

@Spevacus Thanks :)

M.A.R.

It sounds like a retreat, but it's the best I have without delving into Dawkins's gambits and snark.

DavidPostill

And in the spirit of this room, cheers!

@M.A.R. Not in some parts of the world. Coincidentally the same parts the Jihadists come from. It would be wonderful indeed if antibiotics could prevent amputations of the hands and /or head ...

Mithical

that's... a bit different

M.A.R.

@DavidPostill Well, it depends.

But they certainly can in the earlier stages.

-1

Q: About stack exchange users

Doesn't anybody observe that the users of stack exchange are too much professional in sense of attitude, are they all old professional teachers?, as compared to other internet forums. They are all like answering zombies, who wants perfect answer with perfect questions? They don't even like being ...

discussion stack-exchange users

Well uh, thanks, I think

Rob

Such efficiency does not hold a candle to the inefficiency of Vlad the Impaler.

DavidPostill

6:59 PM

@Mithical Indeed, just bringing in references from earlier and to point that all amputations are not caused by a lack of antibiotics or prevented by the administration of antibiotics. I don't like logical fallacies :)

Transcript for