Tavern on the Meta

user400654

00:10

a solution in search of a problem

Aaron Hall

@user400654 basically

I mean I did solve it while eyeballing the top Question though, so the problem already exists, I just don't know which way to answer it...

user400654

I would lean toward one, if it really is as simple as removing "what's the best way"

maybe get someone without a diamond to do it

Catija

00:36

@AaronHall The heroic edit is a good thing. It should be used more often.

Aaron Hall

Not that heroic, just a small rewording...

PM 2Ring

@IamMonica It's a bit of a contentious issue. We close typo questions for a couple of reasons. Firstly, the problem is due to carelessness, not lack of programming knowledge or skill. Secondly, even if someone in the future has the same problem it's quite unlikely that they'll discover the current question with any search engine, especially since the title of typo questions rarely identifies the source of the error.

OTOH, I don't think it's fair to lump typo questions in with blatantly off-topic questions, so I believe that it's appropriate to point out the typo in a comment. If it gets an accepted or positive scored answer, that will block the roomba.

In the SO Python room, we like to close typo questions ASAP, to prevent an actual answer from being posted, but of course it's not unusual to get an answer or two from the FGITW crowd. In those cases, we cast manual deletion votes after a couple of days.

The tricky part is that some questions that get closed as typo / not reproducible are caused by lack of knowledge or confusion, not carelessness. Eg, omitting the parentheses in a function or method call. It might be a plain typo, or it might not be. In such cases, the question may require a full answer, but often an answer already exists, so the question can be dupe-hammered.

Catija

00:59

@AaronHall But it's something that no one else (who voted to close) thought to do... and it's something more people should be doing, so, while a small thing, it's "saving" the post. It's good to set examples like that.

Aaron Hall

Yeah. I don't worry too much about appearances of "conflicts of interest" - I just disclose where apropos and try to do the best/optimal thing.

but letting others reopen is a strong possibility here...

JonathanReez Supports Monica

02:10

@MonicaCellio how are things with the fundraising/legal stuff?

Monica Cellio

03:28

@JonathanReezSupportsMonica there are so many things I wish I could say, but my lawyer advises against right now. The legal world is full of "do this thing, wait for this deadline, do that thing". Eventually there are things that are public info and you can be sure I'll talk about those when I can. Meanwhile, the fundraising is in a good place ($23k, wow) and the next stuff that costs money hasn't come due yet.

2

Journeyman Geek

05:40

→ 31 messages moved to Chimney

Feeds

Podcast: A Brief History of Black Software

Ben Popper on December 03, 2019

This week we chatted with Charlton McIlwain, a professor of media, culture, and communication at NYU. He is the author of the new book, Black Software: The Internet & Racial Justice, from the AfroNet to Black Lives Matter. We discuss how a demand for more diverse clip art helped lay the foundation for some of the first black owned and operated software companies in the United States, and the ways in which social media has helped to empower a new generation of voices to demand change in the tech industry and beyond. …

Rob

06:43

@SmokeDetector tpu-

rene

→ 3 messages moved to Chimney

@AaronHall did you consider a merge?

Shadow The Princess Wizard

07:29

@rene kaboom

Shadow The Princess Wizard

07:45

@M.A.R. or

Luuklag

07:55

Hey guys, any 10k+'r that can see if there are deleted answers on this Q: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335134/…?

I'm wondering why I got my enligthened badge on that post, 1,5 month after the answer.

rene

@Luuklag yes, one (deleted by owner 10 hours ago)

Luuklag

@rene, can you see when that was posted, probably before
answered Oct 11 at 13:31

thanks btw ;)

rene

@Luuklag 2019-10-11 13:31:26Z

Luuklag

08:10

thx @rene, thats 2 secs before my answer. and so by deletion of that answer mine became the "first". So no weird bug in getting the Enlightened badge.

rene

@Luuklag wow. Great timing!

Shadow The Princess Wizard

08:27

@Luuklag yeah usually no bugs in those things.

rene

there are no bugs, just undiscovered features

3

Shadow The Princess Wizard

08:46

There is no spoon.

rene

08:58

I clearly miss a @Bart in SOCVR ...

Meta Andrew T.

09:49

You have two Barts ...

Shadow The Princess Wizard

Where?!

CptEric

10:14

how come this 2014 post got to hot?

i sometimes don't get how sorting works

ooh tag editing. gotcha.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@CptEric ?

Which post?

CptEric

the reported q

was displayed to me as the first row in meta, under the default hot tab

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@CptEric so what do you mean "hot"? Viewed 276 times - not many at all.

@CptEric the sort is by activity, not hotness.

CptEric

hmm. kay

feels weird but i guess there's little i can do.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

There is a "hot" tab, but I never use it, or trust it really works. ;)

Seeing latest activity is crucial if you're into reviewing/flagging stuff. :D

CptEric

10:21

but if you're just a random user it feels like this:

Shadow The Princess Wizard

Well that's why SO got a special "Interesting" sorting algorithm.

But it's unique to SO.

CptEric

and SO default sort works almost the same way. that was one of my points on the loop question, improve sorting and display. even the interesting isn't that much good.

djsmiley2k - CoW

We don't care about new users :D

Shadow The Princess Wizard

Why Windows can't update itself this way?

Meta Andrew T.

Oooh... Jetbrains

Shadow The Princess Wizard

10:25

lol

Yeah love their IDE

CptEric

what i don't get is why VSCODE on mac and PC auto updates

Meta Andrew T.

Windows 10 Jetbrains Edition

CptEric

but on linux it forces me to get a new binary everytime

_every_damn_time

same with slack

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@CptEric Microsoft

That's why.

CptEric

i like windows and many MS stuff. but sometimes they're inconsistently weird.

djsmiley2k - CoW

10:30

@CptEric y u no script it

Shadow The Princess Wizard

They use the opposite of KISS, which is KICP: Keep It (as) Complicated (as) Possible.

djsmiley2k - CoW

Keep it Crappy, Pleb!

Shadow The Princess Wizard

lol

CptEric

i could script it, and say i'm a VSCODE mantainer, which is always nice

djsmiley2k - CoW

SCRIPT ALL THE THINGSSSSSSSS

CptEric

10:31

but i could also rant to the sky when there's teams of paid people working on it.

also it's electron, the self updating thing's been there for ages

and it's working on 2/3 platforms

djsmiley2k - CoW

CptEric

i appreciate your unthisiasm, but i'm node.jsure about it.

djsmiley2k - CoW

I realise the 'fix it yourself' is old, I hate that answer

If I could fix things myself, I wouldn't be moaning about them

Well, I might moan that it's stupid I'm fixing it myself, but I would fix it

CptEric

^that's me with open source stuff.

there's stuff that's unfixable though. like Blender's or Gimp's UI

djsmiley2k - CoW

yah

exactly

I'm not a coder, I'm a network engineer.

I write small python scripts sometimes, but I don't know how to fix 90% of the problems I experience :(

Magisch

10:36

Another mod resignation as of a few minutes ago

CptEric

sighs

jumps on ladder

Shadow The Princess Wizard

jumps on fence

CptEric

where was it?

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Magisch huh? Jenny doesn't appear to be a mod.

Looks like high-rep user quitting, not mod.

Magisch

@ShadowThePrincessWizard terdon on au / bioinformatics

25 minutes ago

Shadow The Princess Wizard

10:41

@Magisch oh, saw the other edit to the non-mod list.

Magisch

@ShadowThePrincessWizard where's that at?

Shadow The Princess Wizard

9

A: Is there a list of non-moderators who have stated they suspended activities due to recent events?

Here is a list of some of the users that are suspending some or all of their activities because of Stack Exchange's recent actions, with links to what they have pledged not to do: Adrian ag415 Aksakal Angew chappo chrylis De Novo GGx Iain Inactive Jenny D (still active here on Meta, but not on ...

user58

......ffffffffffff.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@user58 white?

Think #000000 fits better.

CptEric

with three F's it's enough

user58

10:43

No, it's the start of a swear.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

lol

So, what happened? @user58

SE related? Army?

Magisch

@user58 at the news or the fact that I brought it up?

user58

2 mins ago, by Magisch

@ShadowThePrincessWizard terdon on au / bioinformatics

@Magisch At the news.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

oh. Wait, isn't @terdon hosting Smokey?

!!/location

SmokeDetector

@ShadowThePrincessWizard iBug/Sandy Shores

Shadow The Princess Wizard

10:44

hmm

Magisch

@user58 as long as nothing happens this will keep being a trickle

january will be interesting with all the elections coming up

Shadow The Princess Wizard

IMO the big wave will come when they close/disable/cripple meta sites.

Magisch

I don't think they will do that

Shadow The Princess Wizard

We'll see when they announce how people should report bugs.

Magisch

We might see a system like on SO right now, where the home page and redirects get redesigned such that you can't visit meta without logging in or having a link

Shadow The Princess Wizard

10:50

And what happens to those trying to report on meta.

JAD

@ShadowThePrincessWizard crucifiction

Shadow The Princess Wizard

e.g. if a mod will be required to suspend users just because they tried to report bugs on meta and not in whatever new channel will be available, it's totally expected the mod will resign.

!!/coffee mods

SmokeDetector

@ShadowThePrincessWizard brews a cup of Ristretto for @mods

Magisch

In any case we can't expect anything in the monica situation until quite some time. It doesn't look like they're interested in quickly settling, and lawsuits are long and tedious

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Magisch very true.

Magisch

10:54

And the general rule is that neither party talks about it until done. Meaning it's very possible that they'll continue to stonewall for several years to come.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

!!/watch sapphirerings\.org

SmokeDetector

@SonictheReinstateMonica-hog That pattern looks like it's already caught by Potentially bad keyword in body and Potentially bad keyword in answer; append -force if you really want to do that.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

hmm... spam wave on MSE? Appears to be more than usual.

user58

11:17

> "One thing we've been working on, as a company, is to work in public more. You know, like, be transparent..." - 2:40

@ArtOfCode not worth it

ArtOfCode

@user58 oh but it's amusing

PM 2Ring

@Magisch terdon still has a diamond.

Ah right. Still a mod on U&L

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@PM2Ring also removing a diamond takes time

@user58 any hint what you mean? :/

Meta Andrew T.

@ShadowThePrincessWizard no, the diamond on U&L is by-design

Shadow The Princess Wizard

Yup

Magisch

11:42

@user58 past tense? Thats rich

"We've been working on being more transparent by letting the community burn and putting out an unrelated annoucement or two every month while declaring we'll say nothing indefinitely"

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowThePrincessWizard we will not do that

user58

I have a feeling SE corporate and the community are working with two very different definitions of "transparent".

rene

at best it is a blurry transparency

Magisch

@user58 or in two different social circles. We're not the target audience of the podcast or the blog, the wider american tech-startup ecosphere is

John Dvorak

You mean, the company's being translucent?

user58

11:48

No, they're opaque, with some tinted windows here and there.

Magisch

in the context of other tech companies using sophisticated techniques to influence opinions and shape discussion and viewpoints, using proprietary algorhitms and systems, I guess SE counts as transparent by comparison

John Dvorak

That's like saying that compared to <insert politician name here> my crime record is quite clean

user58

I'd really like to have a chat with someone from a level above the CMs and have a discussion with them about how they can stop more damage and salvage this mess, and maybe even start fixing things.

Magisch

If you're immersed in the "stupid users need to be corralled and manipulated into what we want them to be and do" superiority doctrine thats very prevalent at modern tech companies, you might genuinely believe that this is transparency in that frame of mind

Or I'm grasping at straws and they're lying without flinching, but that'd be assuming bad faith again...

John Dvorak

See? We told them they're ignoring them from now on! transparency!

PM 2Ring

11:52

@user58 We're actually working hand in hand with the community to build a better Stack Overflow. ;)

John Dvorak

Another interpretation: community = swarm of vampires and feeders; transparency = adding regular surveys because nobody bothers to visit the meta

Magisch

@user58 real talk for a second here and all bitterness aside, I don't believe they think there's anything to fix. If I apply hanlon's razor here I think they decided internally that the existing community isn't good enough to spend time keeping and driving us all away is just a side effect of the proposed roadmap

none of their action make sense otherwise unless you assume some shadowy conspiracy. And if this is true, they can't come out and say it or have a serious talk about it either.

user58

I don't see Shog or Cat, for instance, standing for that.

Magisch

they're likely pushing back internally

we can't expect them to resign in protest, this is their livelihood

and if you're a ground level employee and a director or above makes a strategic decision you think sucks what can you do besides quitting?

John Dvorak

If it's just a director of PR - rat on them to an actual director

Magisch

11:57

What if the board is behind them?

Also who says you won't get fired and dragged through the mud for doing that? I wouldn't bet my family's security on making a stand like that.

John Dvorak

Surely if they monica another user, the news will hear about the double lawsuit?

and this time they'll have the worker's law behind them

Magisch

you keep thinking the news on this is negative for them

i'm in a very different twitter bubble by accident and let me tell you a lot of people on there don't like monica and support SE entirely in their doing

John Dvorak

huh... ew

Magisch

sure, meta is falling the hell apart but they're planning on sunsetting most of it anyways so who cares.

John Dvorak

Not the vampires, that's who

Why does it rain, rain, rain on Utopia?

Magisch

12:02

the only wider mainstream coverage out of all of this is a positive the register article, and some minor tremors. Twitter and other social media is remarkably good at letting you see only content from people with views similar to yours. The only negative feedback they've been getting over this is from meta and one-off posts.

You're vastly overestimating how similar what you see is to what they do

JAD

@Magisch hmm, that's odd. TWP seems to think that switching jobs is a universal cure. You make it seem that this is the only option they have

djsmiley2k - CoW

@user58 So I'm watching the company I work at, dismantling the job I do around me

Do I quit in protest?

JAD

I'd say that depends on a lot of factors: 1) how easy would it be for you to find something else? 2) Do you see any chance to influence the company in not doing what they're doing? 3) Do you weigh the stress of switching jobs over the stress of seeing this decline happen?

PM 2Ring

@Magisch I no longer think Hanlon's Razor applies. This is neither malice nor incompetence. Yes, they've decided that Meta is broken (especially Meta.SE), but they aren't actually trying to drive all the Meta users away, (although that Twitter post does indicate that they don't mind losing a few people).

Magisch

@PM2Ring I don't reckon they're actively trying. They just decided that it's an acceptable consequence

PM 2Ring

12:12

They don't want to drive away the Meta people. They'd like it if the "Meta mob" would just disperse. But they don't know how to do that. So they're removing most of the Meta functionality instead.

So the Metas will no longer be a channel from the community to the company for bug reports, feature requests, etc. But (IMHO) the Metas will remain for the purpose of community self-governance.

Magisch

which self governance? Is there anything the community has left to self-govern outside of mod elections?

djsmiley2k - CoW

@JAD no, no, yes.

@Magisch really?

there's plenty of discussion on things (not much for meta.se) but for each site.

Journeyman Geek

@PM2Ring the problem is well - you lose people who may honestly care before the people who you want to leave

djsmiley2k - CoW

tag discussion, behaviour discussion - 'why did thing happen' discussion.

PM 2Ring

Plenty of stuff happens on the meta sites that doesn't have much to with SO Inc directly, especially on the per site metas.

djsmiley2k - CoW

12:19

@PM2Ring I think it'd be stupid, to ignore meta, for the feature requests....

and bug reports, but they don't actually act on most of those anyway.

JAD

@djsmiley2k-CoW pretty much, quitting in protest is probably not going to stop the direction of the company, for better or worse. So I think it's mostly a matter of personal well-being. Being forced to do a job you don't like/agree to sucks.

Magisch

@djsmiley2k-CoW Does anything binding come out of that? it is my understanding that they're working on a moderator council and moderator guides, to unify the way mods are actioning things, which would mean it's entirely likely that mods will have "set rules" in the future, rendering that fuction of meta moot

Journeyman Geek

They do act on bug reports

djsmiley2k - CoW

@Magisch behaviour isn't always a mod issue

"Should I do X or Y" isn't always "What do the rules say".

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch other than that most mods have a better clue about the value of meta and soft skills

Magisch

12:20

I guess you can discuss and coordinate user-level moderation actions, but that'd be about it

djsmiley2k - CoW

It feels like you don't ever visit any meta sites...

@Magisch so yes. flagging, editing, closing, etc.

'Do you even meta bro?' ;)

Magisch

@djsmiley2k-CoW I have a gold tag badge on MSO

djsmiley2k - CoW

So why are you unaware of all these things happening o_O

You a lone wolf?

PM 2Ring

@djsmiley2k-CoW Allegedly, there'll be a new way to propose feature requests. And as for bug reports, they want something that's more automated & streamlined than the current manual ad hoc system.

Aibobot

@PM2Ring they need to build it

djsmiley2k - CoW

12:22

@PM2Ring then, until we see the new system, I can't really comment on it

Aibobot

I'd point at SE's ablysmal track record on building anything not Q&A

djsmiley2k - CoW

but you can still Discuss if you think a particular feature would be any use...

Aibobot

unless they mean "Lets just plumb a public UI into the ticketing system"

djsmiley2k - CoW

They very much have "Not built here" syndrome.

Aibobot

but that just kinda moves the problem under the rug

PM 2Ring

12:23

@Aibobot Let's not talk about Documentation...

Aibobot

@PM2Ring Lets

Magisch

@djsmiley2k-CoW I see ~95-98% of current meta activity becoming moot. And on non-SO sites, that activity is already plenty sparse

djsmiley2k - CoW

well, how much of that activity, leads to genuine changes?

Aibobot

@Magisch the colour of that activity on sites outside MSO and MSE are different

djsmiley2k - CoW

Because, if 95-98% of the activity is requests for SE to act, and they aren't. Then yes. it's not working.

Aibobot

12:24

but we're smaller and have a good engagement with the community

djsmiley2k - CoW

And you're only making their point stronger.

PM 2Ring

@JourneymanGeek Sure, and there are also plenty of people who aren't upset enough to leave, but who've lost a lot of enthusiasm to contribute to answering or curating content.

Aibobot

@PM2Ring and that is seriously a poiblem

HOWEVER THAT WORD IS SPELLED

problem?

Meta Andrew T.

you've got a problem in spelling 'problem'...

Aibobot

Yes I do

Magisch

12:26

@PM2Ring And people, like me, who are watching the fireworks and waiting out just a little longer to see if it's worth staying

Aibobot

I must have a crossed diode

@Magisch and the people fanning the fires

Magisch

everyone has a different line they won't cross, mine isn't reached yet

Aibobot

I'm getting attacked here cause I have a diamond, and apparently I'm part of the problem cause I won't quit

and I'm "supporting the man"

When meta working is the best way to stick it if their fancy ideas fail.

Magisch

perspectives are different

some people see any form of cooperation with the goals of SE inc as betrayal now

Aibobot

They do

PM 2Ring

12:30

@Aibobot Agreed. To be honest, I lost a big chunk of enthusiasm to answer on SO when the whole Welcome Wagon thing happened. I've always tried to be welcoming & encouraging to newbies who should genuine desire to learn. I have zero desire to help the homework-dumping help vampires. And I resent being told that I should welcome them with open arms. :(

Aibobot

@PM2Ring and... that's fine

I've always felt the welcome wagon, summer of love and their most recent actions...

they don't really follow up at all, and don't quite get engaging with the community

Magisch

@Aibobot I got called out on twitter for trying to provide a dispassionate explaination to one of the survey questions a week or so ago. Nothing in that comment indicated my personal opinion in any way

the only winning move is not to play

Aibobot

And yet, that means we basically lose too

PM 2Ring

I can barely stand to read the new questions on the SO Python Active tag. And the answers being posted by clueless newbies are getting worse by the week. Large numbers of experts can no longer be bothered to put in the effort to stop the site drowning in swill.

Aibobot

cause there's no one to say the path is wrong

Magisch

12:34

@PM2Ring I tried to find a mssql question to answer a while ago because I was feeling like it. After 7 or 8 questions that either had 3+ incorrect answers after under 5 minutes, no followup, or were just bad, I stopped trying

not sure how it is in other tags but the signal to noise is worse then quora level right now

Aibobot

and... that's pretty much not even on the radar is it ._.

PM 2Ring

A day or so ago, one of the Python room regulars (gold badger, well over 20k, would be much higher if he hadn't posted so many bounties) created a new account so he could chat without being tempted to look at the main site. He figured if he can't comment or vote he'll be less tempted to read the questions. It's sad when things get to that stage.

Aibobot

@PM2Ring and that's kinda the sort of feedback that I don't think SO corp will get

and to a certain extent - the current path SO is taking is going to burn out,or embitter a portion of the core community that creates a lot of the more useful content.

THey may not notice the burn out

but the embittered folks are probably going to be an issue

I know one ex mod badgers the CEO every chance he gets.

Magisch

how can question quality be on the table when we can't even extract a statement that it matters to start with from the company

Aibobot

@Magisch if I had the answers... ;p

Magisch

12:48

yeah I know it's all just rethoric

PM 2Ring

@Magisch They think the knowledge repository is a permanent asset. They don't understand that it needs constant maintenance, and to be protected from drowning in crap.

in The future, Nov 7 at 6:31, by PM 2Ring

One big thing that concerns me is when people (eg Tim Post) day that the goal was to build a repository of knowledge, and that goal has been largely completed. Yes, there is a huge amount of excellent info here. But it's not like gold sitting in a vault. It's more like a collection of fine wines in a cellar. Some of those vintages mature nicely, but some of them have a limited Use By date.

Journeyman Geek

Also if it's a knowledge repo you don't need new questions

Magisch

That one really good canonical answer we have about how to diagnose and fix NPEs is only as good as your ability to find it. If it's drowned in a million dupes with sometimes more SEO friendly titles, then it ceases to be useful.

PM 2Ring

@JourneymanGeek Well, you do need some new questions. Living coding languages change, adding new features, obsoleting old ones. There are probably hundreds of thousands of answers in the Python tag that were originally ok but are now not advocating good practice, or are downright incorrect. I imagine the situation is much worse with JavaScript, since browser stuff evolves so rapidly.

JAD

13:03

@PM2Ring that's the point though: The knowledge repo is never complete

PM 2Ring

@JAD Hence my wine cellar analogy. You can sit on the reds & the ports, but those white wines will go off pretty quickly. ;)

Magisch

13:18

speaking of runaway tire fires...

CptEric

@Magisch always amazed about this. because i only use social media to post crap and not to socialize never experienced this bubble effect thing.

does twitter algos provide you content you're more akin to "like" or retweet?

Magisch

@CptEric through a quirk of the algos and who I follow / read things by, reddit and twitter have me in vastly different "camps" as in what their algos think I want to see. I deleted my reddit account recently for unrelated reasons, but it's striking

CptEric

curious. always thought that's kind of counter productive for human interaction

Magisch

On twitter everything I see is progressive, my whole timeline is full of people topping each other up on how liberal they are. I had a conversation with a friend of mine from america who has decidedly different political views from me. He sees only conservative news and is in awe how anyone in the country would be left voting democrat

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric mosaicscience.com/story/… it is (edited with link to original article site, which also has some links to sources and no adblocker blocker)

Magisch

13:27

if I went by my twitter feed as indication 100% of all people would vote democrat or left of democrat, but obviously reality doesn't reflect

All these social media companies with their sophisticated engagement driven algos focused on maximizing use-time and enthusiasm have created utter bubbles of viewpoints

CptEric

my guess reading that is that they excessively reassure people on their ideas and shield them from other sources, causing them major concerns / struggles when in real life not everything is so red or blue

i'm happy that my twitter activity is contrained to retweeting thoughts of dog and webcomics.

Magisch

Along the way we have all invented reasons for why it is moral and just to not talk to others who don't fit our viewpoint anymore. It is rather comforting to think everyone agrees and everyone who doesn't doesn't deserve to speak or be heard, but in the end this is how unbridgeable divides form.

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric Read the whole thing, there's also a part where it's made clear that using some moral-emotional language in a tweet can increase the chances of it being retweeted by 20 percent for a single word... It's not just that they reassure people, it's also that they encourage polarized discussion/popular opinion by gamifying likes and retweets.

CptEric

i'm on the gamification part

Tinkeringbell

scientificamerican.com/article/… < That one explains the difference between moral, emotional, and moral-emotional words.

CptEric

13:38

hmm interesting

djsmiley2k - CoW

@Magisch Amazon thinks I'm a farmer. I've no clue anymore what google thinks I do, and care about.

Facebook seems to have given up entirely, and just shows me things I've specifically asked to see.

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric I wish I was a data scientist and could set that theory loose on recent MSE posts... I have a feeling the ones with the most upvotes are likely to contain moral-emotional words...

djsmiley2k - CoW

youtube thinks I want to buy expensive cars etc

which is laughable.

CptEric

well it explains why i'm so out of touch and uninterested about first-world american issues, twitter probably stores that all i care is about pets/dogs and webcomics.

djsmiley2k - CoW

The whole targeting advertising issue is almost entirely not an issue, because it's simply so bad.

or maybe I just don't conform to any models.

Magisch

13:41

none of these models are supposed to be perfect

CptEric

i like it when you buy one thing from amazon and next minute all the ads you see and reccomendations are about dozens of alternatives to it.

Magisch

they're supposed to be good enough for enough people

I bought a keyboard some time ago and kept seeing keyboard ads

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric Oh, or just the article you just bought...

Magisch

I just bought one, why would I need another just now?

CptEric

for science.

sad we humans are so simple to trick.

Tinkeringbell

13:50

@CptEric Did you read the part about dumb AI in that first article I linked? :P

CptEric

the bots being used as buffer to make humans change behaviour?

Tinkeringbell

btw, if anyone is really, really bored... I just started custodiansoftheinternet.org and the first chapter already has a load of things that makes sense...

@CptEric About how, if the bot picks green, someone suddenly picks orange ;)

CptEric

yeah

i guess there's also the fact that some societies are more polarized than others in some topics.

Tinkeringbell

I'm not sure if that's a sad way to trick humans... but we're definitely easy to trick that way ;)

@CptEric Oh, probably... It does say that the pooled resources game is played much more selfishly in Kenya, where there's more corruption... Same probably goes for polarized stuff...

CptEric

it's clearly one thing that made me participate actively in the "less-american-centered" thread.

Tinkeringbell

13:56

?

PM 2Ring

@Tinkeringbell Thanks for posting that. FWIW, I don't do any "social" media... unless you count SE. ;)

CptEric

not the polarization itself but the way some topics are seen, asked or treated are non standarized

Tinkeringbell

@PM2Ring SE is at least a 'platform'... and as people interact here as well... oh well, why not count it as a society? :P

Magisch

what does that make you?

a policewoman?

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@JNat Cross-site spammer: stackexchange.com/users/17228192/sapphireringsco

Tinkeringbell

13:59

@Magisch Military police? :P ... probably still just a content moderator...

PM 2Ring

Before social media, there was talk-back radio, which has a similar self-selecting polarising echo-chamber effect. The dynamics are admittedly a bit different though.

Tinkeringbell

I really recommend that custodians of the internet thing ...

It kinda has an interesting quote on that role of mine, lemme look it up.

CptEric

i'm reading the bio but got distracted by a running office dog farting past my desk.

Tinkeringbell

> In this celebratory vision of platforms, content moderation is treated
as peripheral to what they do—a custodial task, like turning the lights on
and off and sweeping the fl oors. It is occasionally championed in response
to criticism, but otherwise it is obscured, minimized, and disavowed. I
propose turning this understanding of platforms on its head. What if moderation
is central to what platforms do, not peripheral? Moderation is an
enormous part of the work of running a platform, in terms of people, time,

PM 2Ring

@Tinkeringbell Agreed. Although it's a bit different (I suppose) because we're primarily here to teach and to learn, not just to socialize.

Tinkeringbell

14:02

Ugh, horrible formatting :P

@PM2Ring Read that custodians thing... basically, on SE... once you gain certain privileges, you're one of those too ;)

@CptEric Eeeewl.

CptEric

book sounds cool but i'm not sure i'll enjoy it

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric Sometimes, the least enjoyable books carry the biggest lessons...

CptEric

reading Doctor Cole from noah gordon and i hear you

that might make no sense but i promise it does.

Tinkeringbell

This one is pretty easily written though, doesn't really read in that stuffy tone some science has.

And now, back to pretending to work...

o/

PM 2Ring

@Tinkeringbell I've bookmarked it for tomorrow. I'm starting to get sleepy...

I've never wanted to be a diamond mod, but I don't mind doing other moderator-ish stuff, like dupe hammering. I figured I must be doing something ok when OPs thank me for finding a good dupe that answers their question.

Magisch

14:11

@Tinkeringbell the allure of partaking in this is primarily what drives people to participate in charcoal, too

CptEric

see i'm already angry one chapter in :D

CptEric

14:33

couldn't keep reading. i'm weak.

i'm ideologically allergic to ( no matter how good willed or not it is ) social network's neopuritanism.

knowing the why's and how's only makes it worse XD

Magisch

don't go looking for answers as to why then

you may only find despair and anger

CptEric

i know. ignorance is a bliss.

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric Is it really? Knowing why's and how's helps understand, and that can in turn help having conversations about this stuff...

(I gave up on work for today, chat is a bad influence...)

CptEric

it can but it's like having all your retro topics be about "high above" decisions.

can't really do anything but talk about it

only makes you more concerned about it

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@Tinkeringbell :(

Tinkeringbell

14:47

@CptEric Also.. yay, moral-emotional language :P

CptEric

:D

Stevoisiak supports Monica

I've been away for a bit. Is everything still depressing?

Tinkeringbell

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica Yep.

Magisch

@StevoisiaksupportsMonica If you had a good day, leave now and don't read the transcript

Tinkeringbell

But I'm reading a book that at least might help understand. I hope.

Actually, I think that there's a bunch of allright people in chat compared to main right now :)

Stevoisiak supports Monica

14:51

@Magisch Lately I've found myself skimming highlights

Magisch

"This smelly corner is alright in comparison to the smoking tire fire" :D

Shadow The Princess Wizard

oops

Sorry for the smell.

Stevoisiak supports Monica

Doesn't seem like I missed anything too eventful since the loop

Shadow The Princess Wizard

:D

CptEric

stuff like art or photography representing partial or total nudity being censored on open-field networks is hard to grasp. ( for me )

language is a more risky topic

Shadow The Princess Wizard

14:53

@CptEric how so? I totally understand censoring even partial nudity on SE, may it be real or artistic.

While I'm personally fine with those things, can understand those who aren't, and respect that. TL;DR about what sparked this?

CptEric

SE isn't an "open field" social network though, from my PoV

Shadow The Princess Wizard

oh, sure.

So you mean on Facebook/Twitter/etc?

Tinkeringbell

@CptEric I love how the book you don't want to read actually argues that none of those platforms like Twitter or Facebook are either ;)

CptEric

i know :D

jumped to that part but i disagree with that argument

Tinkeringbell

why though?

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