Tavern on the Meta

canon

16:07

@GeorgeStocker I've used it for gaming since it came out. It's a quality application and the webclient is pretty good too. I don't know that I'd fault a communication provider because "bad people" like it too.

2

terdon

16:18

23

Q: To reach out: on Monica, the Lavender community, and the future of the Stack Exchange network

Over the past weeks, the uproar has been vast, spanning the new Code of Conduct, Stack Exchange's conduct over the years, and more. Gallons of internet ink have been spilled by everyone involved, including myself. If you don't know me, I'm heather. I am a moderator on Quantum Computing Stack Exc...

7

Stevoisiak

16:34

@canon I mean, we're mad at Twitter about it

Kevin B

"we"

ColeValleyGirl

@mag Could you let me know if you found it? I've searched and can't find mine, but am not sure where to look in the morass of data.

canon

@KevinB the royal we? :P

ColeValleyGirl

I did find a couple of pieces of data relating to an account I deleted, but for which I used the email address on other accounts. So there's on record the fact that I signed the moderator agreenment in 2012 and nothing about me stepping down!

Stevoisiak

@KevinB Touche. I shouldn't generalize

Kevin B

16:42

I'm fine with opposing (or hurtful) opinions being allowed on a network as long as they're not directly targeting someone. but if they're removed, i expect the counter arguments to be removed too. If it's a topic that shouldn't be discussed, that should apply to the entire topic.

Stevoisiak

@KevinB I think a lot of this struggle could come from mods being overwhelmed

Moderation is hard in the best of times

Kevin B

yup

Mysticial

Anyone know where this got linked from? It's at 19k views after one day without being featured. They have to be coming from somewhere.

735

Q: Stack Overflow is doing me ongoing harm; it's time to fix it!

Over the last month, Stack Overflow has violated its own policies and precedents to cause egregious and unnecessary harm to me -- to my reputation (personal and professional), to my health, and to my safety. This harm is significant and ongoing. It is past time for the company to correct its e...

discussion moderators

Tinkeringbell

@KevinB If there's orphaned comments around... please flag them as NLN. I can't get everything, and certainly not before stuff might get deleted by community flags...

user194636

@Mysticial I retweeted it. I'm kinda a big deal on Twitter.

user194636

16:45

More seriously...no idea.

Kevin B

I haven't seen anymore

👍

divibisan

@Mysticial Lot's of people have been tweeting it: twitter.com/…

mag

^got linked on reddit, for one

divibisan

Though no one with lots of followers (8k seems to be the biggest one)

Stevoisiak

Where was it discussed on Reddit? I hadn't seen it

ArtOfCode

16:51

HN picked it up

divibisan

@Stevoisiak reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dma8zf/…

mag

I wonder if anything else is planned

divibisan

That's the post that was tweeted by the r/programming bot

mag

the timeline they gave us ended with the new FAQ posts

Stevoisiak

@mag I imagine SE themselves are having that conversation right now

Acting before a conversation was had is what got them here in the first place

Mysticial

17:00

@divibisan Oh it did land on reddit. I tried really hard to find it and couldn't.

@divibisan And Hacker news. Why couldn't I find it?

Here's the HN link: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340965

These things get buried fast.

Rubiksmoose

17:33

@KevinB I'd just like to point out that most of the time that I've seen comments get removed is not because "the topic isn't allowed" it's because of the way they are discussing the topic is not allowed and not productive.

6

Mgetz

17:50

@mag I'm going to go with negative

I think they think they are done

Unihedron

I am so tired.

user194636

twitter.com/MonicaCellio/status/1187779293117603840

Kevin B

I respectfully disagree

John Dvorak

@Rubiksmoose ... most?

Unihedron

Unless you're god, you can't assert for all cases, since ot's just not possible to know about all the cases.

Oh, can't edit on mobile. The animation for the message action tray is broken. Disappears right as it shows up.

John Dvorak

18:04

But it only takes a superhuman to vouch for all of the comments that you have observed, not a god. And if we restrict ourselves to comments we remember seeing, it might even be in human power to vouch for the totality of those :D

Unihedron

Memory is unreliable. I can't even remember what I had for lunch.

Rubiksmoose

And there have been an ungodly amount of comments lately too :-/

LinkBerest

@Cerbrus yeah, I noticed your GDPR request because I had also put in one (due to the increasing number of death threat/threats of violence I have gotten that link to Meta.SE - this is part of just being openly Jewish but there is an increase and many actually link to posts/comments on Meta which is new) and recieved the same message (assuming it was because I was in the US): so I'm interested, to put it mildly, in what they have to say

John Dvorak

fair

Unihedron

Oh man. Hang in there.

Stevoisiak

18:11

@LinkBerest Strange. I'm from the US and got mine within minutes

LinkBerest

Luckily, I've never put anything in my location except the State so I don't have to worry as much about people finding me (this is also why I had a recent name change here)

Unihedron

I'm already so stressed and on edge over the mess in hong kong that reading the many angry posts and outrageous comments barely raised my heart pressure. Lol.

terdon

@LinkBerest Wait, what? You've gotten death threats in response to meta posts because you're Jewish?

Tinkeringbell

@Unihedron Are you safe out there?

LinkBerest

@terdon or that link to them at least

@Stevoisiak I used the restrict option so that might be why

terdon

18:14

@LinkBerest Wow. The world is truly broken.

Just...wow

Unihedron

Avoiding the protests and staying safe. Work and events have been more difficult but I'm doing my best. If push comes to shove I will fly to a friend for a while for my personal safety. You stay safe too.

Tinkeringbell

@Unihedron Not much happening here, most of the crap I'm dealing with is online ;) Glad to hear you're relatively safe and okay though!

terdon

@Unihedron Oh, wow, you're in Hong Kong? That must help put this little storm in a teacup we have here into perspective.

LinkBerest

This one on the holidays most recently was linked but shrug I also have faced this in the real world my whole life (fire bombing Shul, vandilizing property, threats - all part of KKK & neo-nazi tactics) so I've learned how to handle it

Unihedron

2017: DONT EAT SOAP!

LinkBerest

18:18

And I still have a few Marine friends around - we look out for each other :)

Unihedron

2019: can we go back to the soap

LinkBerest

anyway......I'm out, have to go to meeting, hope everyone is staying safe out there/in here and thanks for the warm wishes (I do love the userbase on SE as a whole even those I disagree with)

Unihedron

Work hard!

Rubiksmoose

@Unihedron BTW I'm sorry if any of my comments came across as angry as well. I was legitimately coming from a place of teaching, or trying to.

(not looking to debate the content obviously and neither are you I think)

Bart

@Unihedron ... I just came home for the weekend!

Rubiksmoose

18:24

At the very least I'm too exhausted to do any kind of serious discussion justice.

Unihedron

Don't be. Meta is murder. Write the way you want.

Some people work on weekends, @Bart. :P

Rubiksmoose

I mean, that only works if it doesn't matter how the other audience receives the communication. In the vast majority of discussions though, it is very important IMO.

Tinkeringbell

@Unihedron No... 2019: Alcoholic Tide pods XD

Because we deserve it!

Unihedron

I treat you and your attempt at conversing and your content very seriously. The things you've said are what others have told me and I've countered before with the OED. So when I read "The OED accepts this" and I read the OED and it's exactly the way it was there last time I've read it, I roll my eyes and move on.

If you want to throw me more delicious knowledge, my body is ready.

Cerbrus

@Unihedron Sugar is sweet

Strawberries are too.

Unihedron

18:29

Mmm citrus acid.

Cerbrus

Or is that not the kind of delicious knowledge you're requesting? :D

Bart

@Unihedron did you know peanuts aren't nuts? They're a syndicated daily comic strip written and illustrated by Charles M. Schulz.

I might be mixing up stuff there ...

Rubiksmoose

@Unihedron I mean, if you want another respected dictionary: merriam-webster.com/dictionary/they

Unihedron

Potatoes have a name in French that is something like "apple of the earth".

Rubiksmoose

But I'm not really interested in having a dictionary debate.

Bart

18:32

@Unihedron Yup. Pomme de terre. Same in Dutch. Aardappel. Meaning earth apple.

Rubiksmoose

The fact is that singular they is a commonly used form of they and it is essential to correctly gendering certain people. It wasn't a key point in your answer, but it is a very important point in the overall discussion.

Bart

@Tinkeringbell I get the feeling it's not the good kind of "deserve"

Unihedron

Nice, defined as "he or she" by MW. Can't get more concise than that. Wonder when OED will bite.

Rubiksmoose

@Unihedron I mean they kind of have? In some discussion anyways if you look here on the OED blog. It's an interesting read at the very least.

Tinkeringbell

@Bart Every kind of deserve is a good kind of deserve ;)

M.A.R.

18:38

@Bart de-serve

Duh

Unihedron

Well for a long time (until Sept 17) MW also referred to singular they as non-standard. They also had a blog post discussing the usage like OED's blog post before then, but again not aligned with my experience.

Obviously they gave up. And didn't tell me. I feel betrayed.

Rubiksmoose

@Unihedron I earnestly accept your account of your experience, but that doesn't mean that it is representative necessarily. I hear it all the time around me and almost never related at all to NB folks.

I'm also not sure how someone can be betrayed by evolving language, but again I have no doubt that you feel that way. I'm just not sure I understand why.

Unihedron

Well, I get it. Much like how the word "literally" no longer means just "by definition". But I haven't read MW's entry on they since Sept 17 until today. Until 7 minutes earlier, actually.

It takes some time getting used to. Some people grow old and wise. Some people just grow old. I feel old.

John Dvorak

@Unihedron literally still means literally. "Literally is sometimes used to mean figuratively" has about the same weight as "their is sometimes used to mean they're or there"

rene

18:54

→ 9 messages moved to Chimney

Unihedron

I face-palmed when they added the definition "in effect: virtually", then I accepted we're yet another step farther from an utopian future and moved on.

Kevin B

truthfully

John Dvorak

The trick is to ignore M-W and use other sources instead.

Unihedron

truthfully is right. I can't believe MW made they a singular pronoun now. How much do I have to drink for this to make sense.

Kevin B

or just don't care

and be respectful when someone corrects you

:shrug:

Unihedron

18:59

:GWnekomakiNotLikeBOYE:

Rubiksmoose

@Unihedron It's been used like that for several hundred years I don't know what to tell you. "You" was also once a plural and is still used that way grammatically in many places. "You were" not "You is".

John Dvorak

They is a singular pronoun

as evidenced by the fact that "themself" is a real word

Unihedron

So "you is" is correct now too? A bourbon sour please.

John Dvorak

as evidenced by the fact that my spellchecker doesn't bat an eye, and by the fact that I don't.

Kevin B

your spellchecker checks for grammmmar?

John Dvorak

19:02

My spellchecker checks that I'm using real words only.

Unihedron

I think spellcheckers take their correction suggestions from the data of other users' typing. When I type いきなり I get いきなりステーキ (suddenly, steak). I'm pretty sure "suddenly steak" is not a real expression.

Rubiksmoose

@Unihedron Not that I am aware of, no. But that is kind of my point isn't it? You once exclusively referred to a group of people. Thee was used for the singular.

John Dvorak

"suddenly, steak" is a plausible utterance

Rubiksmoose

I think "suddenly, steak" should be uttered way more.

John Dvorak

It's a great phase to slip into a cooking show

Mgetz

19:05

@JohnDvorak sounds like something to scare vampires

John Dvorak

I propose that we re-add "ye/yer" into the dictionary as a second person singular pronoun and reserve "you" for the plural case

Rubiksmoose

@Unihedron 日本語を話しますか。

John Dvorak

My dictionary already considers ye a real word

Cereal

I took japanese in university. Fun language, wish I had time to learn it

Unihedron

I was taught that "you" is a special pronoun in that while it refers to a person it isn't an actual pronoun and thus "are" is attached just as "those people" are not a pronoun and "those people are" is used. The day when "you is" is a real expression, I will cry.

Rubiksmoose

19:08

@Cereal It is fun. I'm very slowly learning at my work. Very. Slowly.

John Dvorak

Japanese writing system is kinda nice. Too bad they insist on writing in Chinese instead.

Cereal

Kanji daunts me

The grammar is really cool

Hiragana and katakana are easy enough to learn

Then they slap you with a 10k symbol -> meaning map

Unihedron

(katakana)

Cereal

That's what I meant to write

John Dvorak

I tried to teach my userscript to transcribe the most common kanji into latin. It stopped me dead in my tracks that there are four completely different and equally valid transliterations for each character.

Unihedron

19:10

yeah I was tested on if I was a hack and passed I guess

Rubiksmoose

> “Despite the apparent grammatical disagreement between a singular antecedent like someone and the plural pronoun them, the construction is so widespread both in print and in speech that it often passes unnoticed,”says the American Heritage Dictionary, in their usage note on the subject.

John Dvorak

Maybe it would be best to nuke English and go back to Hebrew :D

Cereal

@Unihedron How did you learn? Or are you japanese

Rubiksmoose

@Cereal and pronounce! So much better than English

Cereal

buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo

Unihedron

19:13

Now is when I get to say anime and make the world cringe but in all seriousness I wanted to learn japanese mahjong and there aren't any translated books on japanese mahjong.

So I got myself a dictionary.

Cereal

Learning japanese through a dictionary. That's hardcore

Unihedron

I am 2 dan on tenhou now (amount of people who cares: 1)

Rubiksmoose

@Cereal lol

Feeds

I wonder what the trendy adults in 2019 who are too cool for Pokemon will be into. Probably Digimon!

Unihedron

1999 was a better world before Trump was a thing

PM 2Ring

19:25

@Unihedron Some dialects of English use "you is", but it's not accepted in most dialects. The old 2nd person singular form is "thou art".

Unihedron

thou art not to be on thou route to cast the demon of "you is" into existence

if any of you are planning to do that please unplug your keyboards

John Dvorak

That's it. I'm using ye art from now on.

PM 2Ring

@Unihedron "thine route". No, I don't want to encourage "you is", but that's my aesthetic choice. I just wanted to point out that some people do use that construction, and seem to communicate adequately with each other. And it can be used "poetically", eg You Are What You Is. ;)

canon

uggh

Unihedron

Never have I ever been more disgusted at tauntologies. 2019 sure is 2019.

PM 2Ring

19:32

From en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Nicoll

> The problem with defending the purity of the English language is that English is about as pure as a cribhouse whore. We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary.

2

Unihedron

Wow, he sure has his way of making his points. I feel sorry for the other languages. Arrest English please.

canon

Stephen Fry has a pretty good bit about the evolution of the English language.

3

Whoops, that one was more about language pedantry. I'll have to find that other video.

Unihedron

Delicious knowledge

Also, the guy sure is cute and likeable, haha.

Rubiksmoose

@Unihedron Fry?

Unihedron

Yes

Rubiksmoose

19:46

Yeah he is. Have you heard of QI?

PM 2Ring

@canon Thanks, I enjoyed watching that again.

Rubiksmoose

It is a fun show. First bunch of seasons were run by Fry. The new host is also amazing.

Unihedron

Gordon Ramsay is also cute. They're both British. Lol I'll never get sick of the British accent.

I'll have to check it out

Transcript for