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Journeyman Geek

14:00

@Fabby redactions....

user194636

@Magisch There's no doubt several things could and should have been handled better.

Journeyman Geek

@Fabby lets just say it usually makes us do qbert like sounds

Tinkeringbell

MSE trying to be funny

Journeyman Geek

It needs to be done a certain way, with two mods.

user194636

@Tinkeringbell Well that'll come in handy

Fabby

14:01

@JourneymanGeek OK, so unless it's a credit card: don't flag for mod attention.

Tinkeringbell

@PaulWhite Yeah, I guess I needed that! :P

Fabby

Thank you!

Journeyman Geek

@Fabby just remember usually it takes 3-4 attempts to get done

Tinkeringbell

Actually... is that supposed to happen when you don't have enough rep and get a diamond?

Fabby

:-) understood! ;-)

Journeyman Geek

14:02

@Tinkeringbell I don't know

I usually got the rep first

I MIGHT have gotten it on SR.SE but its been ages

Tinkeringbell

Yeah, I had that on IPS too.

I now got 4 new privileges in relatively short time... really weird.

user194636

@Fabby See meta.stackexchange.com/a/274274 if you haven't already.

Tinkeringbell

All the way up to 'access to site analytics'

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell tbh...

mod site analytics sucks compares to high rep user analytics

which I need to poke at XD

I completely forgot that was a thing

Tinkeringbell

What do you look for when poking? I must admit I almost never use them.

Journeyman Geek

14:07

that's why I rarely poke at it

its a fun thing but hardly any real use for us

Derpy

Oct 22 at 9:17, by Derpy

@ShadowWizard Long ago, in a far far away land, there was a private UO shard. It was a small server, with little resources, but the people that created it were friends. And so that little server grew and prosper for a while, slowly getting bigger and famous as more and more people started to play there.

Think I can hear Angel's Fear playing in the distance, @Magisch

Journeyman Geek

also. Man, I finally get to see me in blue ;)

Magisch

so you too can make like eiffel @JourneymanGeek

Tinkeringbell

I kinda still prefer red.

Bart

Go purple

Andras Deak

14:15

oh yeah another: room owners and mods aren't distinguished in mobile chat

Journeyman Geek

They arn't

Tinkeringbell

@Bart Ehhh. I prefer red ;)

Journeyman Geek

And I've been a RO a while?

Andras Deak

yes?

Magisch

well before me

so yes a long time

Andras Deak

14:16

I mean, user|RO|mod are all the same in mobile chat

Journeyman Geek

I was initally thinking it was all cleaning up after smokey ;)

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user (68): Ethereum Code bots...Scam or not? by Rose on bitcoin.SE

Andras Deak

@Tinkeringbell not everyone likes too much red, you know

Magisch

incidentally I was thinking the same @JourneymanGeek

I was like "this is gonna be so much calmer then the awkward silence"

Tinkeringbell

@AndrasDeak I'm going to make an userscript. Red name :D

Journeyman Geek

14:17

@Magisch we got you in after we started needing help XD

Magisch

@JourneymanGeek wasn't it as a result of cat becoming cm?

Journeyman Geek

And the approach I use on RA wouldn't really work. I don't (didn't?) have the same amount of respect I have there ;p

@Magisch actually I was RO before she was I think

oh ya

but we got cat cause we needed more help XD

Shadow Wizard

@AndrasDeak I do! Red color of ping! ;)

Magisch

Now with mods and RO's we're very well footed for chat moderation

Fabby

@PaulWhite I didn't until now! ;-) Thanks!

Journeyman Geek

14:22

@Magisch quite

Andras Deak

@Magisch do you guys not use the boot on purpose? Or are you just patient? I've seen multiple events here since I've been here where I'd have kicked problematic users multiple times

Journeyman Geek

and we can handle most stuff without needing to call in a CM.

Andras Deak

didn't want to bring this up at the time for obvious reasons

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak bit of both

Magisch

@AndrasDeak we do use the boot

sparingly

Andras Deak

14:23

I see, thanks

Journeyman Geek

We didn't really have an escalation path past a boot, and personally, I'd prefer to give people a chance.

Magisch

tavern's a bit different from normal chat, what happens here kinda reflects on MSE since it's the official chatroom

and myself

I guess most of them got booted because of the flag instead?

Magisch

so additional finesse and careful handling is required

Journeyman Geek

@andmyself quite

@AndrasDeak i'd still prefer to not to have to suspend people.

or kick

Tinkeringbell

14:25

@JourneymanGeek I can do that if you'd rather not ;)

Andras Deak

suspending and kicking are very different in my opinion

Magisch

in the end it's all about correcting behavior, and it turns out specific canines have a hand for making that happen without liberally using the boot

Journeyman Geek

to me its a failure in communication - we've not won over anyone

Andras Deak

kicking is perfect for "stop what you're doing right now, and I've already asked once"

it's not about winning, it's about de-escalation

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak after the first kick, they escalate.

Andras Deak

14:26

that's why kickbans get longer and longer :P

Magisch

@AndrasDeak this works only with a constructive base mindset

Andras Deak

of course others in the room should also not feed problem users

Magisch

often it's "HOW DARE YOU I'M RIGHT"

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak more often than not, politely asking people to stop works.

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek "and I've already asked once"

I never said kick on sight

Journeyman Geek

14:26

though I think I occational stun people by ... actually losing my temper, or ... actually being a little on the nose.

@AndrasDeak so, that's solving the immediate problem

Andras Deak

yup

Journeyman Geek

but we also need to get the respect of users so we don't have longer term problems

on SU I once suspended someone, mind conversation, got asked why, said "trust me" and... no one questioned me. Cause well... people trust me.

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek I'm not sure how that relates to kicking ;) Anyway, I'm not trying to argue, I was merely curious

Journeyman Geek

so by refraining from kicking till its absolutely necessary everyone else has seen that we've tried.

Magisch

always open to suggestions for improvement in tactics anyways

Andras Deak

14:29

I'm probably not the right guy for such suggestions. I'm more than happy to use the boot when someone consciously keeps indulging in suboptimal behaviour :P

Journeyman Geek

also, we didn't know if we were expected to or not... but shhhh ;p

and myself

The valid kicks I've seen on this room back then were when... someone's userscript/bot went rogue :/

user194636

Kicks are a pretty small stick.

Journeyman Geek

I don't think I had kicks when I was an RO on SU ._.

Andras Deak

I think Jeff's motto at the introduction of kickbans was "kick early, kick often"

Journeyman Geek

14:32

@AndrasDeak certain people more than others...

which seems unfair.

Andras Deak

you mean kicking certain people more, or certain people kicking others more?

Feeds

When I was a kid, someone told me the end of The Giver was ambiguous, which surprised me. I had just assumed Jonah died--because the book had a medal on the cover, and I knew grown-ups liked stories where sad stuff happens at the end for no reason.

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak yes

Andras Deak

not helping :P

and myself

or when some people were trying to geolocate a user from their WolframAlpha responses.‌..

Journeyman Geek

14:36

@AndrasDeak certain people would be kicked more, and certain people would kick more.

But this isn't IRC ;p

Andras Deak

@AndrasDeak can't find anything along those lines so I probably misremembered

Journeyman Geek

The point of kicking is it gave people a tool for rapid descalation when other things failed

Andras Deak

yup

Tinkeringbell

> Don’t be too reluctant to use kick-mute – if you wait with kicking until everyone hates the person, they’re gonna have a hard time coming back and it may take too long to get a moderator involved. Kick at the first sign of trouble, and be ready to forgive and forget if they correct.

In the 'a guide to moderating chat' post

and myself

(apparently the earlier one, not that one)

Journeyman Geek

14:40

but we do want to try descalating

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Sure, but again.. not to the point that everyone starts to hate a person ;)

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell gee... maaaaybeee...

Andras Deak

@Tinkeringbell thanks

user194636

a kick is a great clue that self-deescalation might be the way forward

Andras Deak

what is self-deescalation?

user194636

14:43

@AndrasDeak the user themselves de-escalating

Andras Deak

you mean the party getting kicked?

and myself

or kicking myself :/

user194636

@AndrasDeak yes

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak basically they realising they need to step back

Andras Deak

you can't ;)

John Dvorak

14:43

As in, they run away and never come back

Journeyman Geek

actually... lets try that

Andras Deak

"the problematic user should de-escalate themselves" is square 1, isn't it?

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak self kicking is probably impossible without JS hacks

Sorry!

or might be cause I can't be...

Andras Deak

@JourneymanGeek I said as much :P

user194636

@JourneymanGeek yeah it's not on the menu. I bet ArtOfCode could do it though.

Journeyman Geek

14:45

@PaulWhite gee, that's what I was thinking ;p

Andras Deak

I think there's an option somewhere, and it will give you a pop-up that you're stupid if you try that

and myself

But well... based on a certain chat room, kicking 2 users got the room deleted forever...

Andras Deak

@andmyself there's only all of the context missing from that sentence so I wouldn't worry

Journeyman Geek

@andmyself was it a wretched hive of scum and villany?

user194636

if so, that was hardly two kicks

Journeyman Geek

14:46

It was hardly 2 kicks

and lots of chatrooms got over a bad rep

user194636

"kicking 2 users got the room deleted forever" is like equating a parking fine with capital punishment

Andras Deak

user194636

@AndrasDeak ha!

Andras Deak

I think that also used to be possible on the desktop interface

user194636

if it had been me, I might have implemented a self-kick as a click of the leave room link

Journeyman Geek

14:50

well I run porkchat...

(for a network with people passionate about black themes...)

Andras Deak

Oh, also: can't upload images from mobile chat

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of body, potentially bad asn for hostname in body (100): OOOPS! Have a trouble ....44554 by Lix Wooders on superuser.com

Andras Deak

asn?

rene

@AndrasDeak ASN

Andras Deak

\o/

Journeyman Geek

15:00

@AndrasDeak basically its new, they check up on the IP related to the hostname - certain ranges have spammers more than others

Andras Deak

Thanks, ninjad by the flower ;)

Journeyman Geek

That one's a true positive and needs to be set on fire.

Bart

The flower?

Journeyman Geek

rene ;p

Andras Deak

The one and only

EKons

15:01

no, it needs to be killed with fire ;-)

Bart

@JourneymanGeek that I know ... ;)

rene

playing mr innocent ...

EKons

well... of course, the flower is always a true positive :P

Andras Deak

May his petaly appendages touch you all

Undo

@JourneymanGeek Around?

Journeyman Geek

15:03

@Undo yup

I'm even on a PC

Undo

Curious about timeline on meta.stackexchange.com/a/318713/215468 - only one flag, then you nuked, right?

Not a charcoal 6-flag, from what my numbers are saying?

and myself

deleted manually by mod, IIRC

Undo

Also, 'grass on the blue! SE made a few good choices.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo one spam flag, cleared, then deleted for NAAness

Undo

sweet, thanks

EKons

15:05

and now let's let the Geek continue killing stuff with fire ;-P

ArtOfCode

@JourneymanGeek any retracted?

Journeyman Geek

@Undo actually I mentioned that on the charcoal room

@ArtOfCode cleared the spam flags.

I don't normally do it but seems unfair

Undo

@JourneymanGeek Yep, woke up to the pings

and myself

last time I see, it went from -4 to -1, then deleted as NAA

Undo

Just triaging it. If we somehow cast a bunch of flags, that's a Big Problem.

I like Little Problems better :)

ArtOfCode

15:06

Flag logs kinda indicate there might've been 3 spam flags at one point

Journeyman Geek

@ArtOfCode possible lemme take a look

Undo

@ArtOfCode Where you seeing that?

ArtOfCode

@Undo grab the flag logs on that post

Journeyman Geek

2 spam, one RA

ArtOfCode

2 manual spam flags, and I'm assuming the reporter flagged it too

and myself

15:07

2 spam... what the...

Journeyman Geek

shrug things worked out.

Andras Deak

I take it it wasn't spam?

ArtOfCode

Aye

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek I'm seeing 3 spam flags, 1 r/a

Undo

@JourneymanGeek yeah, but this is the kind of case I've been looking for for a while

s/I/we

ArtOfCode

15:08

/

Andras Deak

People need kicks on the butt for jumping on with spam flags?

Tinkeringbell

@AndrasDeak Those were autoflags, most likely ;)

Undo

don't worry, I'll provide some kicks if necessary

@Tinkeringbell no autoflags

ArtOfCode

Nope, not autoflags

Andras Deak

@Undo I have no doubt about that, just musing here :)

Tinkeringbell

15:08

ah, then go kick butts!

Journeyman Geek

ahh 3

wait, if they arn't autoflags how do you know who flagged them? 0_0

ArtOfCode

Magic

Journeyman Geek

scary ;p

and myself

spam flags? facepalm

ArtOfCode

also known as userscripts and the metasmoke API

Journeyman Geek

15:10

@andmyself that's the fun part of being a mod

Undo

Userscripts feed us data back

Useful in these kinds of cases.

Journeyman Geek

but here things actally accidentally worked out cause I saw the report

then acted

@Undo well, in that case your view on it is right ;p

EKons

so... I saw the post over MS... how is it R/A

Journeyman Geek

@EKons there was a conversation about it

it wasn't

Andras Deak

oh right, MS

wow, very not spam

Undo

15:17

So that answer is a little... weird?

Andras Deak

weird, yeah

Journeyman Geek

Well yes

rene

maybe

I'm weird too

7

Journeyman Geek

Its a little rambly, dosen't feel like it answers the question...

Andras Deak

@rene yeah

EKons

15:18

maybe probably

Journeyman Geek

But its neither spam nor RA

Andras Deak

It depends. Anything can be construed as offensive these days.

Bart

@rene one of us, one of us

EKons

@rene true

Undo

Darn close, though. Depends heavily on how you read it

Andras Deak

15:18

(some things easier than others)

Undo

@AndrasDeak also this

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak Not on my watch ;)

Not unless it is

then they can face the wraith of dog

and myself

woof?

Undo

I don't even know what point I'm trying to make here, but bear with me. What would your reaction be if I wrote this?

> This is not a problem on SE, but an understandable difficulty black people have in knowing a given type of question and answer and discussion in general.

I bet it'd be "you're a racist", because that totally is racist

Andras Deak

I just deleted a 2-line message musing about the factor that the person criticising the group is a member of the group and endorses membership

I guess I should've finished the message instead :P

being a member of a group doesn't make you automatically immune to being offensive, but it puts your posts in a very different light

ArtOfCode

15:21

@Undo comes down to the old question of can you be discriminatory against a group you'r a part of

Undo

@ArtOfCode getting into the weeds, but I can claim to be a part of whatever group I want and you can't verify it

Anyway, I'm talking myself into "this is really fuzzy" territory

rene

@Undo exactly that

Andras Deak

"boubas should chill the damn down" will be offensive coming from a kiki, but it might be reasonable from a bouba who thinks that the situation in the bouba community is getting out of hand

Undo

... I know about half of those words

Andras Deak

@Undo that's pretty much my remark about "endorses membership" (assuming good faith). Membership alone is insufficient. Many people hate themselves for being something.

ArtOfCode

15:23

@Undo I think they're made up :P

Andras Deak

Bouba/kiki effect

The bouba/kiki effect is a non-arbitrary mapping between speech sounds and the visual shape of objects. This effect was first observed by German-American psychologist Wolfgang Köhler in 1929. In psychological experiments first conducted on the island of Tenerife (where the primary language is Spanish), Köhler showed forms similar to those shown at the right and asked participants which shape was called "takete" and which was called "baluba" ("maluma" in the 1947 version). Although not explicitly stated, Köhler implies that there was a strong preference to pair the jagged shape with "takete" and...

Tinkeringbell

@Undo I think the difference for me is that your version implies something about a lack of intelligence when taken like that... And when written from the Christian perspective it seems more about an existential question.

Undo

@Tinkeringbell My first reading of the original jumped straight to the intelligence question

and myself

(No happy hour for me)

Tinkeringbell

Perhaps I'm too biased for this one then :)

Andras Deak

15:25

I don't read it as an intelligence thing, but I'm not a stakeholder here in any way

Journeyman Geek

@Undo religion as a whole is hard though

there's a reason I only ever go into hinduism for meta

so I literally saw that as someone talking from the perspective of his own faith.

and myself

I might have criticized the people/government of my country, because assumptively I knew more about them

Undo

@ArtOfCode I think I'm actually pretty happy with the system here. AFAICT, someone reported something that was clearly offensive in their eyes, some other people agreed and disagreed, it sparked debate, and some brand new diamonds got to make decisions.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo precisely

Undo

Maybe reports are only supposed to be used for clear stuff, but I could talk myself into that being pretty clear at first read

Journeyman Geek

15:27

them spam flags tho....

Andras Deak

^

Undo

@JourneymanGeek as opposed to R/A flags?

Andras Deak

yes

ArtOfCode

spam === R/A

Journeyman Geek

@Undo hence needing people on the ground making the decision...

Undo

15:27

They're exactly the same thing. Meh.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo they're the same, but not the same.

Andras Deak

if even charcoal peeps can't distinguish spam from non-spam, we're in for trouble :P

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak they mean the effect is the same

Andras Deak

I know

Catija

it's about the chat user script, not knowing the difference.

Andras Deak

15:28

But this reminds me of the "group downvote to trigger roomba" moderation. It technically works but it's still abuse and makes for a bad experience

Undo

We use spam for R/A stuff all the time, mostly because it makes systems work easier.

ArtOfCode

@Undo I would be less happy with it if the other flags weren't there... but they are, so agreed

Journeyman Geek

@Undo that said, I saw the RA report, read through the post... 2-3 times then made a decision.

Undo

@ArtOfCode Kind of a weird case where the flag showed up after a mod made the call, but it probably works

Journeyman Geek

and I'm trying to clear out flags so when I saw yours I popped in and.. confused everyone...

and myself

15:29

@AndrasDeak It's like... someone votes to close a question with any reason just because the question should be closed @_@

Journeyman Geek

@Undo it was a special flag because we made the call

Andras Deak

@andmyself sort of. Though spam-deletion instead of R/A-deletion won't be shown to the poster in any way, unlike the wrong close reason

ArtOfCode

@Undo silly mods being quicker than the system :P

Undo

in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, Feb 28 '17 at 21:31, by Pops

It's... hard... to argue in favor of writing an algorithm and making a bot spend time calculating which of the two flag types to use when they are, in actuality, the exact same flag. It's not even Coke vs. Pepsi, it's Pepsi vs. a second bottle of Pepsi that's using a different but still valid Pepsi logo.

Journeyman Geek

> This post had 2 spam flag(s) cast on it by Charcoal members and has since been deleted, but was ultimately judged not to have been spam. Please review whether spam flags - and the penalty that comes with them - are appropriate for this post - you can let us know in chat.stackexchange.com/rooms/11540 if the flags were inappropriate. If you're wondering WTF this flag is, see charcoal-se.org/smokey/Auto-Mod-Flags for details

@Undo it makes it easier to see at a glance what's the problem, least as a human

EKons

15:31

new automatic "other" flag :-D

Journeyman Geek

@ArtOfCode other than the pesky need to sleep, and only being on one site at a time...

Undo

@JourneymanGeek Could see that; I'm used to it on SO where people don't know how the hell to flag stuff anyway.

Journeyman Geek

@Undo we have smaller volumes

and... tbh, harder flags.

Undo

probably harder-on-average flags :)

ArtOfCode

How many flags are there in the MSE queue at the moment?

Journeyman Geek

15:32

1

was 7 this morning.

Andras Deak

nice, 85% decrease

Undo

Journeyman Geek

So.. here's the difficulty. We don't know why they're still there.

Can we set statuses?

Undo

Statuses?

and myself

... hmm... can I flag for comment clean-up on my MSE answer then?

Journeyman Geek

15:33

[status:complete]

@andmyself yes you may

Undo

Technically, yes

Journeyman Geek

@Undo true but that feels like something the devs or PMs should do

ANOTHER one looked like it was a reminder ...

so I did the needful.

ArtOfCode

I'd assume the same policy as it is on per-site metas - do it if it's obvious, leave it if it's not

Catija

@andmyself you always could.

Undo

@ArtOfCode get yelled at if you're wrong

ArtOfCode

15:35

"require comments with downvotes" you can status-decline yourself

Journeyman Geek

@ArtOfCode naw, that's not the one

30

Q: Meta's moderators are very shy

Post-split, Meta's moderators are (we've been told) the CMs and maybe a few other employees. And, sure enough, those folks have diamonds. However, something's missing: Where are all the moderators?? Also, while I'm here, see the underlined text -- I know it's boilerplate, but since Meta doe...

this is one ;p

but I took the liberty there

and myself

sent comment clean-up request, though I'm afraid it's a bit like minefield...

Tinkeringbell

I'm trained at those :P

Journeyman Geek

@andmyself which is fine. We don't work here ;)

@Tinkeringbell if you're doing it I'll step back ;p

no point getting on each others toes

Tinkeringbell

I am just reading for now. If you've already decided what can go, feel free to start pushing ;)

ArtOfCode

15:41

@Catija Happen to know when WB ends this year?

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell done

There's still a bunch of comments but I got rid of the ones not directly related to the problem at hand, so to speak

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Heh. I pressed buttons too, seems I pressed the same comments ;)

Just one more than you.

Journeyman Geek

oh?

and myself

thanks a lot 🙇‍♂️

Journeyman Geek

ah!

Tinkeringbell

15:44

@JourneymanGeek Or maybe I pressed that one before you got it ;)

Journeyman Geek

naw, I left that one

it seemed vaguely relevant

But I think that particular situation is something I'd defer to your judgement on

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Not really related to the question or answer IMO ;)

Andras Deak

look at them, already stepping on each other's toes

Journeyman Geek

@AndrasDeak on the contrary

Tinkeringbell

@AndrasDeak We would never do that in public :P

Journeyman Geek

15:47

It was related to a situation I knew she knew better, so I deferred to her there.

Catija

@ArtOfCode I don't know the dates. They started planning after I had Gus, so I've not been involved in it much.

ArtOfCode

Ah, fair

Journeyman Geek

IIE, you need to wait to find out like the rest of us ;p

(THE HORROR!)

and myself

Based on historical data, it's recently Sunday after 1st January

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Winterbash horror... :P

Catija

15:49

@JourneymanGeek Nah. I can just ask.

Henders

@JourneymanGeek IIE?

Journeyman Geek

Aiyeeeeeee

and myself

not "Eeeeeek"?

Journeyman Geek

I meant ie but autocucumbered

No

Henders

I thought it might be that, I was struggling to understand what the Institute of International Education had to do with Winter Bash :P

EKons

15:57

:P

ArtOfCode

!!/hats

SmokeDetector

@ArtOfCode WE LOVE HATS! Winter Bash will begin in 18 days, 8 hours, 2 minutes, and 15 seconds.

7

EKons

ONLY A LITTLE MORE THAN 18 DAYS \o/

Andras Deak

I'll have to remember to leave before that :P

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