Tavern on the Meta

Shog9

21:00

If you want to downvote answers "with impunity" then you have to earn that impunity first.

impunity

Noun: impunity (countable and uncountable, plural impunities)

(countable, law) Exemption from punishment.
(uncountable) Freedom from punishment or retribution; security from any reprisal or injurious consequences of an action, behaviour etc.
1846, Edgar Allen Poe, The Cask of Amontillado:
I must not only punish but punish with impunity. A wrong is unredressed when retribution overtakes its redresser.
1994, Nelson Mandela, Long Walk to Freedom, Abacus 2010, p. 495:
The remoteness of the prison made the authorities feel they could ignore us with impunity.

canon

That's the whole point

Meta everywhere else is a safe space for discussion

your rep is locked

Shog9

yes, and?

canon

that's not the case for the meta meta

Shog9

your rep everywhere else is similarly unaffected by discussion on MSE

canon

the meta that sits atop the other metas

Shog9

21:01

If I post a lousy question on MSO, no number of downvotes will alter my SO reputation

Similarly, if I post a lousy question on MSE, no number of downvotes will alter my SO reputation

The big difference for MSE is that my MSE reputation isn't tied to any other site.

canon

Yeah, but your ability to continue voting on MSE is affected by your continued rep-gaining participation in MSE

so even though you're participating in the network

well, let's say SO

and you've amassed tens of thousands of rep

if you only visit MSE to participate in discussions which happen to affect SO

and you've downvoted a few times

you can run yourself out of downvotes

πάντα ῥεῖ

@canon And again: What's bad about this?

canon

which seems stupid

Shog9

why?

canon

because if I'm going to spend time participating on SO

and the meta discussion surrounding that

I shouldn't be hamstrung if the discussion happens to be held on MSE rather than MSO

Shog9

21:03

why?

canon

you're right

Shog9

really, why?

canon

I'll just make sure to mirror any issues on MSO

Shog9

you're describing a scenario where you go to MSE with some regularity to indicate your disagreement, but never contribute anything else

canon

that's because that's my only use-case for MSE

Shog9

21:05

Never write an answer, never post competing proposals, never edit to help clarify others' ideas.

canon

I go there when something that would be posted on MSO is posted on MSE because it happens to be more broadly applicable than SO

πάντα ῥεῖ

@canon Then you probably misunderstood how to use MSE and what's on topic in particular.

Shog9

FWIW, we discussed this when originally splitting MSO into MSO/MSE

canon

... that mess

Shog9

One of the big problems with the old MSO was that it didn't mirror Stack Overflow reputation - so folks who'd contributed a lot to SO had no privilege on MSO

Kevin B

21:08

meh, getting rep there is easy anyway... post a dissenting opinion on an unpopular change.

Shog9

That was a huge, immediate win upon splitting the sites.

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Shog9 And some persons I don't want to name still drag that discussion further.

Shog9

The problem with having MSE mirror network rep is that it effectively makes Stack Overflow dominant in discussions that affect the entire network.

πάντα ῥεῖ

The entire network outweighs SO meanwhile.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 But you're missing something:

Jan 19 at 20:42, by Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

On per-site metas, your reputation doesn't change. But on MSE, your reputation goes down if you propose something unpopular, which has a few things wrong with it: 1. you can get privileges taken away and be set further away from future ones just for proposing something unpopular, even if you did your research and wrote the request well, 2. the voting system is especially confusing for autists because (https://chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/89?m=6620872#6620872), and 3...

(3 isn't relevant here)

πάντα ῥεῖ

21:09

Joel isn't at least that bad employer I thought he would be :3

Shog9

Reputation is... not the same on every site. The distribution of reputation is certainly not the same across the network.

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog once again, I have zero concerns about folks losing the ability to post bad ideas if all they do is post bad ideas.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Good so!

Shog9

@πάνταῥεῖ not... really

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 I once lost a privilege for posting just one bad idea.

Shog9

No you didn't

Name one privilege you don't have because of one bad idea.

πάντα ῥεῖ

21:13

Mostly! I'm not concerned profesionally ;

canon

@Shog9 If all the relevant discussions happened purely on the site-specific metas I'd have no problem. As it is, farming rep on the meta-meta just to have a continued voice in what happens to your main site just seems weak.

Shog9

Let's use @canon's downvote thing as an example here.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Yes, I had just gained 2,500 rep, then I posted an unpopular FR, then I lost it.

May 10 at 12:34, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

tl;dr I'm not really concerned about the numbers here. I'm ideologically, morally opposed to the idea of losing rep simply for disagreement.

"ideologically, morally"

Shog9

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog you have 6K on MSE

John Dvorak

@Shog9 How about employees that only post unpopular ... announcements?

Shog9

21:14

please stop with the hyperbole

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Me or John?

Shog9

you. You certainly didn't lose any 2500 privilege due to one FR

That implies you never earned any reputation again after posting that FR

which is certainly not the case

It's a misleading exaggeration of what happened, and implies consequences far more dire than actually exist.

So, stop.

John Dvorak

@Shog9 It doesn't really

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 That I later regained it doesn't mean I didn't lose it. I lost it and regained it. I did lose it.

Take things literally next time.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Most of the MSE/MSO FRs certainly lack empathy and inclusiveness for SE devs and their already existing burdens.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

21:17

Maybe if they were more public about their burdens...like I've been.

canon

don't you mean inclusive?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@canon What?

canon

@πάνταῥεῖ I was responding to, "Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog."

πάντα ῥεῖ

@canon Who's that?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9

Mar 26 at 23:18, by Sonic Wizard

I was 398 steps away from getting the ability to VTC. But just because I posted an unpopular answer, I was initially set back four steps to 402 steps. I could get those four steps back, but that's not really fair because if I did the exact same thing minus the unpopular post, I would have been 394 steps away, not 398. It's absolutely worthless.

Shog9

21:19

ok, so look... who's interested in discussing what downvoting on MSE would be like if it mirrored network reputation, and who's interested in discussing how MSE is broken forever because Sonic once had to go a day without proposing tag synonyms.

Because I'm not going to do the latter. It's a dishonest complaint and I won't be part of that discussion.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Please explain to me why you believe it's "dishonest".

Shog9

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog please tell me how temporarily losing a privilege because you posted a crap answer is a problem on MSE

canon

@Shog9 how bad would it be if your MSE rep (or rep floor) was your aggregate network rep or top network site rep?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 Please explain to me why the question that made me lose it at the time is "crap".

John Dvorak

Also, isn't "crap" on the bad word list? :P

Shog9

21:22

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog three people already explained that to you.

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

Also, you didn't address the argument that it's "ideologically, morally" bad.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Won't the content still be crap (to repat shog's wording)?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 A bad idea is not outright "crap". That's demoralizing.

Mithrandir

@canon It... would kinda make sense if it was linked to network rep; that'd be consistent with how metas work across the network. This is why @TimStone has a userscript to show network rep on Meta.SE :)

Kevin B

I don't think it should mirror network rep, and think it should have a cost. but... just like on SO main, the cost only affects newcomers.

If you're not already part of the club so to speak, you can't participate in the same way everyone else can. That makes sense on, say, stackoverflow, or ELL, or any other main site, but when it comes to MSE, where the discussions are about the platform itself, I feel like having rep, anywhere, over a certain amount, should give you a good starting bit of rep to get you going. I don't think 100 is enough.

πάντα ῥεῖ

21:23

@JohnDvorak Flag that plz!

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@canon He thinks I'm the Iblis Trigger, and wants to "destroy me for the sake of this world". In other words, fooled by Mephiles the Dark.

Martin James

@JohnDvorak It's a FAQ

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@KevinB What about people like me, who derive most of their network rep from meta contributions?

Shog9

Ok. So, due to a complete misunderstanding of the conversation I was being dragged into, I now have data on what privilege breakdowns would be for various rep models on MSE.

Adam Lear

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog I think that's indicative of needing a hobby :)

Shog9

21:24

If anyone is serious about this, post a question on MSE

Adam Lear

And I say that as someone whose meta rep surpassed all other site rep prior to being employed here

Shog9

otherwise, I'll chalk this up to wasted time and ignore the next ping I get about anything related to MSE here.

Mithrandir

@AdamLear ...problem? My hobby is SE ;)

πάντα ῥεῖ

While we're just hobbyists @Shog has to deal with that professionally. Again be emphatic and inclusive please!

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

@Shog9 The only reason why I've held off on making an MSE post is because people will just read the few sentences and decide that it's so bad that the author should lose rep from posting it, without bothering to read the rest of it.

The inclusivity project's kickstarter went public about her concerns for the same reason. It's time I did the same thing.

And due to a happy coincidence, there's a chance we can collaborate on it, and people will hear us.

canon

21:31

@Shog9 I'd be happy to post on MSE. Could you clarify what you mean by rep models? Do you mean aggregate network rep, top site rep, etc?

Mark Amery

22:01

@Shog9 Not obvious to me that this is a bad thing. Isn't it fair for sites to get influence in proportion to their popularity?

(Oh, and btw, is replying to old messages bad chat etiquette? I am still not a chat regular and don't know how the notifications work.)

Shog9

replying to old messages is fine. I just got through my on-site inbox after the weekend; some of the messages I replied to were a day or more old.

Now... Lemme try this one more time: I'm not going to discuss this in this chatroom until it has been raised on MSE, because no matter how many times it comes up here nothing ever gets resolved and I see no reason to bother crafting replies to messages from months ago when my previous replies were ignored.

If y'all want my input, ask for it somewhere where I won't have to write the same thing again next week... Or at very least, will be able to quickly find my previous answer.

If you don't want my input, then for the love of god do not ping me

πάντα ῥεῖ

That probably might become shog's hidden rule for pinging :3

Mark Amery

I'm going to take that to mean that what I just did generated a notification and that this was annoying

So, uh, sorry :P

canon

0

Q: What if MSE used a different rep model for privileges?

How would MSE be impacted if its privileges, like those of site-specific metas, were driven by main-site activity rather than its own rep system, e.g.: Your aggregate rep across the network Your maximum rep from any site across the network* What would privilege distribution look like? Potenti...

discussion

let the downvotes roll in

πάντα ῥεῖ

@canon Done

Shog9

22:09

@MarkAmery it did, and it was, but only because three other people had already pinged me after I'd already said I wouldn't discuss it here.

canon

I'd like to point out that I didn't drag you into this

that said, I wasn't sure exactly what it is you wanted me to ask on MSE

so, if I missed the mark... apologies.

Martin James

@canon I can't help with that. If some OP posts "don't downvote", I always downvote and don't bother reading the rest of their post. So now, since you are asking for downvotes to roll in, I feel obliged to refuse to downvote and read your post instead.

Mark Amery

@Shog9 Gotcha. Hmm. Sounds like I should've just quoted the message or pasted a permalink or something, since by the sounds of it there's no non-pinging version of the reply function (+1 to meta.stackexchange.com/q/235322/200582). Chat is weird.

canon

@MartinJames rofl

Kevin B

yeah but that's a chat FR, that'l never happen

Mark Amery

22:13

Yeah, I figured. But +1 to it anyway.

canon

@πάνταῥεῖ do you really need me to define main site activity?

πάντα ῥεῖ

Yes. Because there's actually no relation with network wide activity.

Maybe I'll compose an answer.

canon

You do that. Make sure you explain why, "There's no relation between privileges on a meta site and reputation on the site(s) it governs." I'd be happy to read that.

πάντα ῥεῖ

Not that I didn't already here ...

Catija

22:47

@AdamLear cumulative or single site?

Adam Lear

22:58

@Catija Definitely single site... not sure about combined. Can find out from se.com, probably, but that graph isn’t really usable on a small phone :)

canon

@AdamLear just gross

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

23:30

@Shog9 Tell me where you refuted my claim that losing rep for a solely unpopular request (as in, not deserving a downvote if the voting system was based solely on quality) is an ideologically, morally bad thing.

I can't find it.

Journeyman Geek

@canon I might post an answer later

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog look harder?

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

The closest thing to a response I could find was this:

Jun 26 at 19:51, by Shog9

I'm still quite OK with the idea of losing rep for being disagreeable

Which comes across at first (correct if I'm wrong) as evading the question. (Not saying that it's his intent.)

I can post an unpopular FR that people downvote, but still be agreeable and try and incorporate others' suggestions into it. Should I lose rep for that?

I followed that up with this:

Jun 26 at 19:53, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

On top of the above, the system offers to give you back your lost rings in exchange for recanting your opinion. This is very clique-y.

No response to that.

I raised the same point on June 12 and May 10, no response.

chat.meta.stackexchange.com/search?q=ideologically&room=89

@JourneymanGeek You can also help me search ^^

Journeyman Geek

23:54

Erm. No

canon

@JourneymanGeek or you could just downvote. :P

Transcript for