optipess.com/2009/08/24/your-mom

@TelKitty What happened to the lounge?

@user5389107 fell off a roof

I wish folks from the outside could see how much awful stuff doesn't happen on our platform in any given day, because I'm really proud of it. But occasionally, room culture just deteriorates into the sort of self-feeding event horizon into total suck, and that's hard to detect, so unfortunately we don't see it until it gets really bad and that's a problem we have to solve.

Like Captain Queenan in The Departed

@TimPost I think the reason we're getting more flak is because people think we can be reasoned with

no one is expending effort to publicly criticise 4chan or reddit - they all know the site owners won't do anything and the baseline is so low that getting anywhere constructive would require setting the site on fire just to start

@TelKitty Well, if our rules weren't a good fit for what they wanted to talk about, and the tone they wanted .. it's actually good that they found somewhere else to talk. I'm not saying that as if I'm glad they fizzled out, I'm just saying it's good to see acknowledgement that we're not the best platform for every group or culture.

Well, there's a reason why I don't join SO domain-specific chat room...

@TelKitty Well, it wasn't really an experiment, it was the amount of time and constant complaints we were spending / getting respectively.

For instance I doubt people would raise the same criticisms that are raised of SO on 8chan's doxing forums, simply because the acceptable baseline to make changes isn't there. For such a site, the only reasonable thing is "don't ever go there". It requires a high baseline to be worth criticising in order to effect change

@TelKitty There were like 4 meta posts where the lounge was close to getting deleted

So, after the emotional aspect of things is over, what are you (pl.) planning to do about unwelcomingicity @TimP? I don't see new meta that's not riddled with emotions and full of constructive discussion or I wouldn't have asked

I don't think the meta storm will subside for another couple of weeks at least

@TelKitty they were asked to

@user5389107 well, no meta storm here, so

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ A lot of stuff, the first thing is we need to make some much needed improvements to the new user experience in the software.

@JohnDvorak Boo that's not a Haiku

@TimPost okay, makes sense

@TelKitty in an event of fridge clarity I realized we might have been talking about different things by "problem". So for the record, when I say there's a problem I don't mean "SO is toxic" or "SO is racist". I mean "Apart from a few cases of blatant racism/mysogyny/etc. there are a lot of users who mostly unconsciously give users belonging to minorities a harder time than necessary."

Like, helping people ask better questions, and setting their expectations more based on what they're about to submit.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Once we do that and take some time to see how that changes things, I think we can figure out what's next.

@TimPost something like the mentorship experiment?

Is any followup planned?

@user5389107 Quite possibly.

@user5389107 I don't think a real human being should be involved

Too exhausting

There's some stuff we've all known is pretty darn rough or broken, so that stuff has to get priority

(before we introduce new stuff)

I was involved in the mentorship thing. I could imagine myself making that a regular part of my daily routine if it was refined a bit

Tim, is there any chance chat itself (I mean moderation mechanics) will get some love now?

My experience is, to Asians like me with some language barrier, the tour almost says nothing

I think an interactive tour would be better

@M.A.R I wish all of our users had your language barrier at worst :P

something clippy like with "Hey, did you know that making a reproducible example for us helps us help you?"

unless it's [algorithm] etc

There's no chit-chat. Okay, I have no idea what that is supposed to mean and how it makes SE different from your normal post-anything forum

or "hey, if you describe what you've tried before coming here we can more easily find out what you actually need" would be a lot friendlier then getting -3 and a comment "idownvotedbecau.se/noeffort"

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ I don't think that's a language thing, more like a cultural thing. What people mean by idle chatter depends on whom you ask.

And it shouldn't necessarily be explained in the tour, but it has no use for people that need to know what it means

@AndrasDeak bottom line is we haven't communicated effectively

yup

@AndrasDeak sry but i want know what loop is. hovercrafts in advantage

Well, to Asians like me with a bit language barrier, the tour helps knowing the upvote, on-topic, off-topic. But doesn't tell about asking/answering good post... tags might be ignored, and I don't see reputation & editing other post are that much important for most of new users... and badges. The "Visit the Help Center" could be explicitly separated to: How to ask Good Question, How to post a Good Answer, then lastly the Help Center itself... because that's what they want to do in the 1st plac

You should have seen me in 2014

well you're not you in 2014 ;) I only "met" you in 2016 or so

@hey and it doesn't tell you that if you get downvoted, it doesn't mean "go away, The Stack Overflow Personal Vendetta Team"

@ShadowWizard should this be considered borderline plagiarism of this? First part of the list is a word-by-word copy, second part is basically reordered....

@Derpy Shadow can't answer for 7 days

It's okay. Derpy is patient

@TelKitty hey no, don't you dare go. Help me carry this piano

Hello @Cat and Bennett

@user5389107 ?

Haha I missed Optipess

There goes my evening

@Derpy those posts certainly look inspired on the same source

@user5389107 just for fun... any way you could disclose what he said to deserve the suspension?

I guess I'm standing in for @sha for the time being ...

I'm not involved in this

@Derpy search twitter

@rene you standing in for @rene is enough trouble

@Derpy look for a twitter link by Andras minutes ago

standin flower

@hey minutes ago? Dude.

now with extra pollen and petals

well, 6-8 minutes ago then

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ yeah, I realize that might be the source for moar trouble

I dunno, it just felt "minutes ago" to me o_O

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Titration with Ca(OH)2 by roger on chemistry.SE

ugh

@SmokeDetector K

@rene I'm just curios. I have established that calling the staff "dirty people" is not worth suspending, nor is calling a gray winged creature "mentally ill". I still wonder what he did that should be considered more serious than those.

@JourneymanGeek ?

the company that pays my salary is apparently not on the electronic timesheet system the company I am working for is on

which means I literally need to do 3x sets of timesheets and get someone to sign it

this is going to get annoying fast

@Derpy just saying somethings not-Shadow-Wizardy

@JourneymanGeek do one and print it 3x?

no no

@JourneymanGeek :(

three different incompatible systems

@Derpy to be fair mentally ill is a descriptor

I'm mentally ill

(as in I have a diagnosed mental health condition)

Driven by negative moods, not the positive ones he's usually in

2 digital (one internal, one meant for my employer) one on paper

and the paper one is the one that apparently matters and is not done yet

@JourneymanGeek this is probably punishment for hating apostrophes on meta.SE

sigh

;p

Apostrophist

@user5389107 to be fair, I am of the idea that most word can be turned to offenses. "An insult by any other name is still an insult".

That said, found the link. Yep. It is bad.

That said, I do still wonder in which percentage Shadow suspension is to attribute to the words he said... and in which percentage to April finding out and giving it visibility by posting a screenshot on twitter.

@JourneymanGeek yeah, I recall one client where a colleague and I wrote an app so we could print the timesheets from our own system onto the pre-printed-paper from the customer to make sure our reported hours matched against what was billed. It got rejected once the customer found out: their sheets needed to be filled in by hand ... bureaucrats live forever ...

Just cause you didn't get called out on something dosen't mean it was right

@rene ya, my main problem is I need to work out who can sign it

@Derpy let's just drop it, OK?

and they sent out the email at 9pm, so I need to catch people in the morning

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ As you wish, but to be clear...

I'm totally on April side on this one. Sorry, Shadow, but I hope you'll understand.

@Derpy he was contemplating apologizing

OK... What has just happened to Shadow, what has he done?

@JourneymanGeek Oh, I once billed 4 hours for administrative tasks ... that will teach them ...

@JohnDvorak eh, take a look at the scrollback

oh boy

@rene hah

@JohnDvorak he did one last Wizard trick and .... poof ...

Trapped in the Scepter of Darkness by Mephiles the Dark

TBH, I was also disturbed by that conversation, but I was sleeping at that time... only to find out when catching up through the transcript

And well, I guess to be fair, not only Shadow got suspended

I'm sure panta doesn't even notice by now

oh, well, then I think it is time to do a little experiment.

heh. it's quite ironic that the platform people are most saying SO's culture of expecting rude comments is toxic on, is literally the vessel of expecting to be publicly chastised twitter.com/hubertlepicki/status/991036758925217793

> Agile/XP is a manifestation of white male privilege.

okay, now... I don't know what to say...

heh

Unless you want to engage them in conversation? Not very much

@AndrasDeak he is used to it ...

a little too much :(

@Derpy linky?

@JourneymanGeek yeah, old dogs / new tricks thing

ehh.

I don't think that's great reasoning.

it wasn't meant to be great reasoning

so that fits

If someone keeps making the same mistakes, well...

and ugh. I'm going to try doing the same stuff I do on RA here. I donno if it'll work.

I do feel that we could do better than we do sometimes, and I can try the gentle reminders at least until I get sick of it ;)

@JourneymanGeek t-12 messages, I suspect

hm?

> until I get sick of it

@user5389107 oh then I quietly leave and never come back ;p

Tried that on mos, and... quietly left, never came back ;p

@user5389107 As someone suggested before, the offense was pointed out by April on a twitter post she made. Before someone tries to imply it, no, I didn't tell her so she must have noticed is some other way.

@JourneymanGeek I don't have "appropriate for public" Twitter account, so.. nah, I definitely won't engage them ;p

@Derpy and as I kinda suggested - it dosen't matter who

Hmm... should I expect Tavern to continue holding conversations after which a third of the participants wind up dead without a trace?

But we're kinda under the magnifying glass

@Derpy No I mean linky to the person calling you mentally ill that was apparently fine?

Also everyone has the right to read this transcript so who told whom is a moot point

I'm really not sure what to say right now. I'm sick. When I see someone who I respect and who I've always felt was welcoming and helpful act that way it does damage. Let's be welcoming without the other stuff, even if it's difficult. We're better people than this.

@JohnDvorak yes, anyone in particular you're worried about?

@JohnDvorak hopefully no

@user5389107 aaaaaaaaahhhhh, that one?

@TimPost Great :) although in most of the chatrooms I usually participate in (mostly PPCG chatrooms) that's not a problem. I was a bit annoyed in {some Meta.SE/SO chat room}.

@Catija It's worth noting that people can have lapses in judgement and sometimes do decidedly un-nice things and still be good people otherwise

@Derpy yea

I'm curious

@rene I'm worried about my sanity and ... site permissions. Anyone else I cannot affect.

I welcome the strong stance that @TimPost do on the chat, but why I still see user calling other user idiot in comment on SO that go unchallenged is a mystery for me, we need to have the same message about rudeness everywhere IMO

@yagmoth555 flaaaaaag

seriously

@yagmoth555 We already, people should flag it.

@user5389107 I know. That doesn't mean it's ok.

@Catija no, of course not. But someone's worst moments don't have to define them or your image of them

But if someone said "I'm an idiot" in the chat, don't flag, star it :S

self deprecating humor is a normal and very unoffensive thing imo

@JourneymanGeek I agree :) but the mod that see it, what he will do, the stance is not clear imo

deprecating someone else is not really nice

@yagmoth555 idk I'd flag a comment calling someone an idiot

Anyways... I'm off for a lunch. Bye

@user5389107 oh, yep, I think it could be fun (please, while you read "fun", just picture the standard Kira face, red eyes included). Here you go. It also contains nice freeexamples of "April must be totally wrong, SE isn't caustic at all"....

and i'd 100% expect that flag to be validated

and I'm off for a dinner~

@hey haha you still hung up about that

@user5389107 I didn't say that. It's like a scratch in a car door. The car is still good, still runs... but it's not as good as it was.

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ well, SE does love fun ;)

there you go, @user5389107 . Flagged multiple times. Used the "contact us" link and sent a custom mail asking for its removal or an explanation of why it should stay. Got NO ANSWER.

@user5389107 he wasn't serious

@Derpy That ... and the following conversation looks really bad. Worse then what led to the recent wave

@hey that's tradition

@yagmoth555 they will see it, consider it, then, well, hopefully act appropriately

@user5389107 now you also know why I do my best so that word like "brony" are NOT used here, since the community already showed me how immature they can be.

@Derpy if I wronged you in any way in that conversation, I apologize

I'm apparently part of it, but I have no memory of it

@PrincessLuna and while we are at it, this should also explain my reaction when you used that other word some time ago. Sorry if I didn't explain it back then..

Huh?

the f***y word

What's wrong with it?

@hey faculty?

oh

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ forty!

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ furry. there were three stars, not 5

@hey wash your mouth!

@Derpy ehhh. I've been around a few, and some of them are spectacularly nice folk ;p

@hey obligatory I AM OFFENDED!!! :p

This is totally out of control ...

Do you drink water with that mouth?

I'm drinking friend chicken now!!!

@hey , I still haven't gotten my answer: what's wrong with it? cc @Derpy

I guess your friend should be upset

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Some of the water I drink is ultrapurified sewage. The rest of it was probably too.

@PrincessLuna See the above messages for more clarification. Simply put, I stand that this chat is to immature to even hope to use words like that (or even something like "brony") without ending up in offensive rants by someone

I live next to a sewage treatment plant

@user5389107 What waste! :p

@JourneymanGeek don't tempt me to drag this conversation to dirty places . . .

surprisingly it doesn't smell a lot

@user5389107 I'd expect it smell like chlorinated water

@PrincessLuna it's... something that is both loved and despised by each group. There's also the term "y*** in h*ll". Anyway, controversial...

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Basically since we have limited water sources - we actually purify our sewage to an ultra pure standard as a source

then store it in reservoirs mixed with rain water cause its so pure it can be used in wafer fabs and will kill you

@user5389107 my brother works in one ;p

@JourneymanGeek us too, but we prefer wasting

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ its actually a critical matter of national security

I'm pretty sure it works that way too

Are there places without sewage treatment plants?

er

yes

some places just use 'local' septic tanks

Or just....

let it into the drains

@hey Again, so? Basically every single word can be used as an insult. How effective and how rude each is varies, but still

@JourneymanGeek So what do you do with the festering poo?

Just dump it somewhere?

@user5389107 I think they let it decompose a little and it settles into the ground or gets pumped out every so often

depending on the design

singapore has all that very seriously planned out and centralised

Easier cause we're tiny

@PrincessLuna I think that the pictures that were posted in the Den to "illustrate what a brony is" should be sufficient without further explanation. I already stated it. Brony is no more than a contraction of "brother" and "pony", just meant to indicate a male mlp fan. To be fair, it was connected to things like the "love and tolerate" motto far before some genius though to connect it to bad stereotypes.

If those pictures are a display of what the chat users have to say on the matter... It is better if they don't use the word at all.

So, to be clear . I was not mad at you, Luna. Mine was and advice - "stop before someone starts offending you too."

//shrug

doesn't help that the second picture is overtly homophobic in context too

Well, apparently most of us tolerate it, but that doesn't mean if someone new enters this chat room, then thinking for the worst... (wait, I'm feeling deja vu)

errrr. If it happened in the den...

@hey considering that line I linked before was clearly aimed at me, I would humbly suggest that one should care less if HE tolerates something and care a little more if that something hurts others. Again, that is the basic difference between having fun with someone and having fun at someone.

So much negative in the chat today. I'm considering leaving for a while :(

what on earth?

@SterlingArcher no, what on the Tavern

^

so everyone walking on eggshells eh?

not really

@SurajRao Yep. Don't say something that offends someone

@PrincessLuna that... dosen't help at all

does eggshells offend anyone?

me

how dare you

@SurajRao I AM OFFENDED probably

I'm not sure what to think of this reply on April's twitter post though. Kinda seems counter-productive to be offensive when they're trying to get people to stop being offensive.

@SurajRao practically? Mistakes were made, actions were taken. Walking on eggshells kinda makes it seems like people need to be afraid.

People need to be considerate of what they say

@PrincessLuna we could be ... bigger people and accept his view of folks here isn't that great. And walk away ? ;p

@JourneymanGeek agree completely but you know in the current climate where people are looking to take offense... gotta be extra careful

I agree that mean things shouldn't be said, but are we worried about a slippery slope of allowing outside forces dictate everything we say?

I'm not!

@JourneymanGeek shrug

@SterlingArcher eh, "worried" is the wrong word

@SurajRao <insert "I am offended by people being offended" here> :p

I've already seen examples of twitter users taking out of context messages and using them as weapons. When does that become an issue?

Normally, it wouldn't. But when the company acts on these tweets? It's scary.

Yeah.

Generally we encourage users to make sure that what they say isn't too egregious when taken out of context.

For precisely that reason - things will be taken out of context.

eh. As I said earlier though - folks are watching, and trying to find things that they can complain about. What's wrong with actually stopping to think about what we say? We can totally disagree - but when we actually see that well, the network and chat is under attack due to our actions...

things will be taken

@JourneymanGeek but it literally just happened last weekend

we can either circle the wagons, or actually take the high ground, and try to be better than they are

@SterlingArcher and will keep happening I suspect

@SterlingArcher the company didn't act on a Tweet. It acted on a chat post that no-one flagged and that they discovered thanks to a Tweet.

> When you find yourself in a hole stop digging

@SterlingArcher If we're talking about a certain JS room conversation... there were parts of that conversation that should not have been said.

@MikeTheLiar This is applicable to many parties here.

Absolutely we should be better, but we've already had 2 of the most helpful users I've seen go on a break in the JS room because they're tired of feeling undefended

@user1114 Bye bye now :*

@hichris123 definitely not defending the notion of the conversation, but I have read private messages that I cannot disclose without permission that show the intended drive by, the out of context messaging, etc

bleh. If I ever leave stack, it will be back to IRC ;)

@SterlingArcher but we know that's happening.

I tried to join IRC but they said I was 10 years too young for that

@user1114 is that a closed / private thingy?

@rene Kinda

@Jhoverit Only 10?

@rene kinda like a proprietary chat platform

To be clear. It is not that those message were fine because no one reported it. They were offensive, and it should not mater if April has an account here, if someone reported them or anything else. As soon as the staff noticed them, they where removed

@Jhoverit they said I was 40 years too old for that

There are PMs that are private, but you can have servers with multiple people, which can be either closed or open

!!/panic

@Mithrandir No such command 'panic'.

@user1114 at the rate chat is going, we're going to lose the best and most helpful users because StackOverflow is all about PR and saying that chat has lousy tools, and then doesn't work on said tools.

And that makes me sad because I love it here.

@SmokeDetector that should be added ....

@SterlingArcher Improving mod tools won't even help here on chat.Meta, because the only mods here are staff.

@SterlingArcher This applies to most problems on SO

And you don't really need better mod tools to deal with the stuff you deal with here

@SterlingArcher There is a lot of tooling that needs work, across both chat and Q&A.

Yes we definitely do.

You need better people skills, not better hammers.

Ever deal with a 6 month persistent troll?

Better hammers are a plus, but take a backseat to people skills.

@Mithrandir No, SE needs better hammers too.

@Mithrandir well, but we have regular RO's here and I didn't step in either ....

Multiple times? Ever feel powerless to stop a user from harassing your chat?

You need folks to talk to each other and actually listen when someone tries to help them not hoist themselves on their own petard

@SterlingArcher I deal with one. Poor lad. Clearly needs a better hobby

@JourneymanGeek we have gone through extensive efforts to make a governing policy on Github that new users ignore.

The one petard I thought I'd never be hoisted on!

How can we be better when we are trolled and nobody makes an issue or reads the freaking rules?

@SterlingArcher Root Access has actively resisted a formal policy on that

Say what?

things work cause we have a core of users who get the rules, and know when to go "hey geek, its ok, we got this"

Tbh, better chat and comment moderation tools would help a lot

@SterlingArcher chat room I have been an RO for 8ish years

But this is more of a culture problem.

Ah ok, I've been a JS RO for maybe 4-5 years

I had kick powers - but what would have been the end effect?

They come back

(granted I think I missed the worst bits)

also they'd get annoyed, the posts would still be there...

@TimPost I've been a bystander mostly for the MSO discussions of the past days, but here's something that doesn't feel right to me: just as with the Joel post a while ago, you have an employee posting a moralising announcement, an employee who has little to no interaction with the Meta crowd. Very ivory tower like. Then the CMs have to deal with all the MSO posts, calming down people, clarifying things, etc. But the person who posted the announcement remains silent. (1/2)

I feel this fuels an us-vs-them environment, which really needs to be avoided. Not sure if what I'm writing makes a lot of sense, but wanted to share. (2/2)

Hi!

Chat tip, if your message is reported as too long, insert line breaks - you don't have to break it into multiple messages

@MikeTheLiar TIL. And I've used chat for a long time :P

@Stijn I think that's very well put. Jay's blog post makes the loyal users like me feel terrible.

;p

@Stijn I think there's both a public 'firefighting' and 'internal' aspect to dealing with this.

though I'm not too convinced the former is doing much more than encouraging critics at this point.

It's made conversation sure... but what the hell is going to happen? Is Jay going to make tools to make this all better or is he just going to blog about how we've turned SO into a horrible place

What's the point in making conversation happen when it's the nth time and it's just going to circle back after years of no action

@Stijn who know that employee is where now. I guess they gonna moderate all the blog post now.

@Stijn It's (perhaps) worth noting that in at least one MSO post, Tim has implied that there's more to come in the future. I think it's good to let people say some part of what they think to test the waters when they move to the next phase. Gives people time to digest in small bits rather than having to consume a book worth of info in one go.

@Stijn It does.

@SterlingArcher well, that's something we've probably pointed out - I've done so specifically with respect to chat

Part of the problem is we run out of Jay faster than we run out of peanut butter.

0_0

@Stijn but I told it to an employee in comment, they should had link to a meta post that blog post to target all the feedback there, to prevent the damage

It's not a lack of desire to be here, at all. He's spread like amazingly thin as it is.

I hope I didn't come off as rude, definitely not intended. I'm just, trying to show my frustrations in a constructive manner.

@TimPost I'm sorry to say this - but that's something we hear a lot of the CMs in general :(

@TimPost ... all of y'all are... not to minimize what Jay does... but we know you all need help.

@SterlingArcher no not at all

I think no-one within the SE operation is waiting to get their next assignment ...