I wish folks from the outside could see how much awful stuff doesn't happen on our platform in any given day, because I'm really proud of it. But occasionally, room culture just deteriorates into the sort of self-feeding event horizon into total suck, and that's hard to detect, so unfortunately we don't see it until it gets really bad and that's a problem we have to solve.
@TimPost I think the reason we're getting more flak is because people think we can be reasoned with
no one is expending effort to publicly criticise 4chan or reddit - they all know the site owners won't do anything and the baseline is so low that getting anywhere constructive would require setting the site on fire just to start
@TelKitty Well, if our rules weren't a good fit for what they wanted to talk about, and the tone they wanted .. it's actually good that they found somewhere else to talk. I'm not saying that as if I'm glad they fizzled out, I'm just saying it's good to see acknowledgement that we're not the best platform for every group or culture.
For instance I doubt people would raise the same criticisms that are raised of SO on 8chan's doxing forums, simply because the acceptable baseline to make changes isn't there. For such a site, the only reasonable thing is "don't ever go there". It requires a high baseline to be worth criticising in order to effect change
@TelKitty There were like 4 meta posts where the lounge was close to getting deleted
user202362
1:09 PM
but SO never deleted lounge, loungers themselves moved somewhere else
So, after the emotional aspect of things is over, what are you (pl.) planning to do about unwelcomingicity @TimP? I don't see new meta that's not riddled with emotions and full of constructive discussion or I wouldn't have asked
@TelKitty in an event of fridge clarity I realized we might have been talking about different things by "problem". So for the record, when I say there's a problem I don't mean "SO is toxic" or "SO is racist". I mean "Apart from a few cases of blatant racism/mysogyny/etc. there are a lot of users who mostly unconsciously give users belonging to minorities a harder time than necessary."
or "hey, if you describe what you've tried before coming here we can more easily find out what you actually need" would be a lot friendlier then getting -3 and a comment "idownvotedbecau.se/noeffort"
Well, to Asians like me with a bit language barrier, the tour helps knowing the upvote, on-topic, off-topic. But doesn't tell about asking/answering good post... tags might be ignored, and I don't see reputation & editing other post are that much important for most of new users... and badges. The "Visit the Help Center" could be explicitly separated to: How to ask Good Question, How to post a Good Answer, then lastly the Help Center itself... because that's what they want to do in the 1st plac
@ShadowWizard should this be considered borderline plagiarism of this? First part of the list is a word-by-word copy, second part is basically reordered....
@rene I'm just curios. I have established that calling the staff "dirty people" is not worth suspending, nor is calling a gray winged creature "mentally ill". I still wonder what he did that should be considered more serious than those.
@user5389107 to be fair, I am of the idea that most word can be turned to offenses. "An insult by any other name is still an insult".
That said, found the link. Yep. It is bad.
That said, I do still wonder in which percentage Shadow suspension is to attribute to the words he said... and in which percentage to April finding out and giving it visibility by posting a screenshot on twitter.
@JourneymanGeek yeah, I recall one client where a colleague and I wrote an app so we could print the timesheets from our own system onto the pre-printed-paper from the customer to make sure our reported hours matched against what was billed. It got rejected once the customer found out: their sheets needed to be filled in by hand ... bureaucrats live forever ...
heh. it's quite ironic that the platform people are most saying SO's culture of expecting rude comments is toxic on, is literally the vessel of expecting to be publicly chastised twitter.com/hubertlepicki/status/991036758925217793
@user5389107 As someone suggested before, the offense was pointed out by April on a twitter post she made. Before someone tries to imply it, no, I didn't tell her so she must have noticed is some other way.
I'm really not sure what to say right now. I'm sick. When I see someone who I respect and who I've always felt was welcoming and helpful act that way it does damage. Let's be welcoming without the other stuff, even if it's difficult. We're better people than this.
@TimPost Great :) although in most of the chatrooms I usually participate in (mostly PPCG chatrooms) that's not a problem. I was a bit annoyed in {some Meta.SE/SO chat room}.
I welcome the strong stance that @TimPost do on the chat, but why I still see user calling other user idiot in comment on SO that go unchallenged is a mystery for me, we need to have the same message about rudeness everywhere IMO
@user5389107 oh, yep, I think it could be fun (please, while you read "fun", just picture the standard Kira face, red eyes included). Here you go. It also contains nice freeexamples of "April must be totally wrong, SE isn't caustic at all"....
there you go, @user5389107 . Flagged multiple times. Used the "contact us" link and sent a custom mail asking for its removal or an explanation of why it should stay. Got NO ANSWER.
@user5389107 now you also know why I do my best so that word like "brony" are NOT used here, since the community already showed me how immature they can be.
@PrincessLuna and while we are at it, this should also explain my reaction when you used that other word some time ago. Sorry if I didn't explain it back then..
@PrincessLuna See the above messages for more clarification. Simply put, I stand that this chat is to immature to even hope to use words like that (or even something like "brony") without ending up in offensive rants by someone
@PrincessLuna I think that the pictures that were posted in the Den to "illustrate what a brony is" should be sufficient without further explanation. I already stated it. Brony is no more than a contraction of "brother" and "pony", just meant to indicate a male mlp fan. To be fair, it was connected to things like the "love and tolerate" motto far before some genius though to connect it to bad stereotypes.
If those pictures are a display of what the chat users have to say on the matter... It is better if they don't use the word at all.
So, to be clear . I was not mad at you, Luna. Mine was and advice - "stop before someone starts offending you too."
Well, apparently most of us tolerate it, but that doesn't mean if someone new enters this chat room, then thinking for the worst... (wait, I'm feeling deja vu)
@hey considering that line I linked before was clearly aimed at me, I would humbly suggest that one should care less if HE tolerates something and care a little more if that something hurts others. Again, that is the basic difference between having fun with someone and having fun at someone.
I'm not sure what to think of this reply on April's twitter post though. Kinda seems counter-productive to be offensive when they're trying to get people to stop being offensive.
eh. As I said earlier though - folks are watching, and trying to find things that they can complain about. What's wrong with actually stopping to think about what we say? We can totally disagree - but when we actually see that well, the network and chat is under attack due to our actions...
Absolutely we should be better, but we've already had 2 of the most helpful users I've seen go on a break in the JS room because they're tired of feeling undefended
Anonymous
When y’all abandon Stack forever and move to Discord, don’t forget to send me an invite. Cheers.
@hichris123 definitely not defending the notion of the conversation, but I have read private messages that I cannot disclose without permission that show the intended drive by, the out of context messaging, etc
To be clear. It is not that those message were fine because no one reported it. They were offensive, and it should not mater if April has an account here, if someone reported them or anything else. As soon as the staff noticed them, they where removed
@user1114 at the rate chat is going, we're going to lose the best and most helpful users because StackOverflow is all about PR and saying that chat has lousy tools, and then doesn't work on said tools.
@TimPost I've been a bystander mostly for the MSO discussions of the past days, but here's something that doesn't feel right to me: just as with the Joel post a while ago, you have an employee posting a moralising announcement, an employee who has little to no interaction with the Meta crowd. Very ivory tower like. Then the CMs have to deal with all the MSO posts, calming down people, clarifying things, etc. But the person who posted the announcement remains silent. (1/2)
I feel this fuels an us-vs-them environment, which really needs to be avoided. Not sure if what I'm writing makes a lot of sense, but wanted to share. (2/2)
It's made conversation sure... but what the hell is going to happen? Is Jay going to make tools to make this all better or is he just going to blog about how we've turned SO into a horrible place
What's the point in making conversation happen when it's the nth time and it's just going to circle back after years of no action
@Stijn It's (perhaps) worth noting that in at least one MSO post, Tim has implied that there's more to come in the future. I think it's good to let people say some part of what they think to test the waters when they move to the next phase. Gives people time to digest in small bits rather than having to consume a book worth of info in one go.
@Stijn but I told it to an employee in comment, they should had link to a meta post that blog post to target all the feedback there, to prevent the damage
