Tavern on the Meta

Jan Dvorak

22:00

@hichris123 will you?

bjb568

Salvageable means "ok", as in has at least some value already. So it can be made into "good", what the sight needs.

Jan Dvorak

^

bjb568

@JanDvorak You shouldn't, aint nobody got time for dat

Jason C

In general I don't flag any question that I could cast a valid close vote on instead. Seems to be working out for me.

hichris123

@bjb568 Then you just told every new user that there's no need for them to edit.

@JasonC Agree.

Jan Dvorak

22:01

@bjb568 nobody asks decent questions nowadays, so the next best thing is to polish crap nto something decent

hichris123

@bjb568 Well, don't unclear questions have value? Some OT (debugging), too broad.

Jan Dvorak

@hichris123 no

@hichris123 mostly they don't

bjb568

@hichris123 My first question was not crap.

hichris123

@JanDvorak Eh, that's debatable.

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 [reference-needed]

hichris123

22:02

@bjb568 Mine wasn't actually either. But my second was. ;P

bjb568

@JanDvorak They ask ok to meh questions which are salvageable. (and crap which isn't)

@JanDvorak (some of my questions are from account merge)

hichris123

Ugh. I'm trying to find a Shog quote.

bjb568

20

Q: How can I make an svg scale with its parent container?

I want to have an inline svg element's contents scale when size is non-native. Of course I could have it as a separate file and scale it like that. index.html: <img src="foo.svg" style="width: 100%;" /> foo.svg: <svg width="123" height="456"></svg> However, I want to add additional styles to t...

20 votes!

Jan Dvorak

gg!

bjb568

@JanDvorak Gigagram?

Jan Dvorak

22:06

good game

k... nice

bjb568

Oh. What game?

Jan Dvorak

the Rep Hunter 2k

bjb568

… now with socks?

Jason C

Lol; github.com/MrMEEE/bumblebee-Old-and-abbandoned/commit/…

Brad Larson

@bjb568 Before I decline all of these, let me first warn you not to abuse the flagging system. These flags are a complete waste of our time, and you appear to be using them to farm helpful flags.

bjb568

22:13

@BradLarson Your time? They can be handled by the LQRQ.

… which handles them properly.

Brad Larson

"Very low quality" on a question should only come on one that requires immediate removal, not on questions that already have close votes on them. Those flags are pointless for things that the community is already acting on.

bjb568

Why would I want to farm flags anyway?

@BradLarson That's what you say, but other people say other things about the use of it.

Jan Dvorak

If the question gets handled outside the queue, it will be removed from the queue anyways, won't it?

bjb568

I do truly and honestly believe that all those questions are very low quality and unsalvageable, which I think is Shog's definition.

Brad Larson

-3

Q: Why won't my button run my javascript

Hi im having trouble figuring out why my button will not work below is my code any help is appreciated. basically once i hit button it should either print story with typed in words or if a spot is left blank story doesnt show and box thats missing characters is surrounded with red border thanks. ...

javascript jquery html css forms

You flagged this. It may not be a great question, but it has code, a problem statement, and what they're trying to do.

Jason C

22:16

I wish they'd just change or get rid of the VLQ flag already so the constant banter about it can stop.

Braiam

till the time Shog makes the machine that turns crap into gold

Brad Larson

This is not something that requires immediate removal.

Jan Dvorak

@BradLarson way too much code, in fact

Also, "won't work" isn't a problem statement

Even the desired behavior description isn't very clear

Jason C

@BradLarson Would it be safe to say that if an existing close vote reason accurately covers a question, then it is definitely not a case for a VLQ flag?

bjb568

@BradLarson Unclear. To address everything, Too Broad. Offtopic/13 reason (no clear problem statement or minimal code).

Jan Dvorak

22:18

@BradLarson What does then?

bjb568

@BradLarson What "requires immediate removal"? Only abuse?

Jan Dvorak

Do only unanswered questions need immediate closure?

bjb568

There's no way it can be edited into something good without changing the fundamental meaning of it.

Jan Dvorak

In fact, it hasn't been closed until now. Were it not for the tavern, it never would. Roomba ignores open questions. Also, I'd hate to have four closevotes rot on that

bjb568

^^ (which is currently… not a whole lot)

Brad Larson

22:20

@JasonC Yes, if a standard close reason applies, use a close vote. I see very little in terms of questions that "very low quality" applies to. Frankly, the I and the rest of the moderators want to see "very low quality" removed as a flag option on questions. It has use cases on answers (gibberish, etc.), but you don't often see complete gibberish in questions.

bjb568

Complete gibberish is the abuse flag!

My point is the LQRQ handles it in a way that improves the quality of the site. And your handling doesn't do that which is what I don't get.

Brad Larson

Given that the community can only dispute, not decline, these flags, people have realized that they can shotgun them on anything they see without penalty in an attempt to farm helpful flags.

Jan Dvorak

IOW, the VLQ flag on questions should never be used once you can CV instead?

Jason C

@BradLarson Great, so, @Shog9, can you please update whatever the heck answers people keep referring to that you posted about VLQ flags to include that ^^^ , so people can stop quoting you then bickering about it?

Jan Dvorak

@BradLarson then have the community decline them instead of disputing?

Anything can be abused

bjb568

22:22

@BradLarson I don't see any motivation for farming flags. I think it's more likely they think they're improving the site.

Andy

@bjb568 You don't. Others do

Brad Larson

I would make one modification for how "not an answer" and "very low quality" flags are voted on: if these flags are unanimously voted against, mark the flags as "declined" instead of "disputed".

bjb568

@bjb568 … and they are with the LQRQ being efficient at closing questions and deleting answers that moderators would do nothing on and the community unaided by queues would ignore.

@BradLarson I totally agree.

Brad Larson

@bjb568 People do this all the time to game the badges. You should see what happens during a moderator election, too.

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 please note this essentially turns LQRQ into a second CVQ

@BradLarson People answer all the time to game reputation. Should answering be forbidden?

bjb568

22:24

@BradLarson Well… I've already got gold, so that doesn't apply to me.

Jan Dvorak

Not that we haven't tried, but there's only so much I can downvote

bjb568

@JanDvorak Meh, that isn't that bad, it's useful to have a queue of the worst stuff out of the overflowing unhandled CV queue.

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 yet

bjb568

Well, I'll complain on meta again about how I can't review 100 items in there then.

Because I would.

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 inb4 "have a life"

bjb568

22:27

@bjb568 my best recommendation is to get a life. j/k! Or am I??? :D <3 <3 <3 :P — Cupcake May 10 at 18:32

Jan Dvorak

@BradLarson I'm sorry, but "X is often abused => X a bad feature" is just not a valid argument

Jason C

@JanDvorak nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html

Jan Dvorak

112 is often abused

bjb568

7 is too

Brad Larson

@JanDvorak It is, if the feature is not acting as it should and causes way more noise than signal.

We don't let 1-rep users comment because the potential for abuse at present would far outweigh the advantages.

bjb568

22:29

@BradLarson But if the signal is really important (like with the asking a new question feature), that's irrelevant.

Jan Dvorak

But before VLQ flags are removed (which doesn't seem to be going to happen), should legitimate use be punished?

bjb568

… especially if right now the LQRQ's handling of them causes a net-positive for the site?

Jan Dvorak

^

@bjb568 You should post an answer to Brad's post

hichris123

@bjb568 LQRQ just speeds up the closing of a question. Ask yourself this: would any of those questions actively harm the site if they were not deleted or closed immediately?

bjb568

@hichris123 Absolutely. They are broken windows.

hichris123

22:33

(no, broken windows does not apply here. Because then you would flag every question that should be VTC as VLQ)

@bjb568 ^

bjb568

@JanDvorak To Hide “not an answer” and “very low quality” flags in the moderator flag queue? How's it related?

Sam

@hichris123 *(and the deletion of answers)

Brad Larson

Even if we expand the usage of low quality flags to a broader class of things than just "this needs to be deleted immediately", what's to prevent them from just turning into a way of queue-jumping over the close votes queue? Does the low quality review queue just take over everything?

hichris123

@Sam Eh, true. But answers are a lot more important than questions in terms of immediate deletion; users from Google usually see crappy answers a ton more than crappy questions.

bjb568

@hichris123 No, making the LQRQ the CV queue wouldn't improve the handling of questions. Making the LQRQ the worst of the CV queue (the… low quality questions…) will improve the handling of questions which removes the broken windows better.

Brad Larson

22:34

That's a genuine question, and one I've thought about. The low quality reviews work, but do we want to shove everything in there? What's the limit for that?

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 where do you draw the line?

I'd say, LQRQ = obviously closeworthy

bjb568

@BradLarson Uh… "what if we make things like <describes how it is currently>?" Nothing.

Sam

@hichris123 True.

Jan Dvorak

CVQ = closeworthy if you don't mind actually reading the question and understanding it

bjb568

@JanDvorak Something which either cannot be edited by me-with-infinite-time into something that I'd upvote or something that an edit that would bring it from its current state to its ideal sate would be one I'd reject for conflicting with the author's intention.

Jan Dvorak

22:36

My suggestion: If you need to spend more than 15 seconds, it's CV-worthy, otherwise it's VLQ

bjb568

^ Yup.

hichris123

@JanDvorak Meh. That brings to mind all tool-recs, general computing questions, some too broad and unclear...

Jan Dvorak

@hichris123 Indeed. I'd shove them to LQRQ

Second Rikudo

VLQ is currently defined as something that isn't likely salvageable via editing

Jan Dvorak

Another suggestion: VLQ = doesn't need knowledge of the topic to determine closeworthiness

Second Rikudo

22:38

@JanDvorak The name VLQ has to go though.

4

Jan Dvorak

@SecondRikudo We'd need to narrow that down in order to keep LQRQ useful

bjb568

@hichris123 Those can sometimes be VLQ. But an old tool request that isn't too demanding that uses proper english and is generally good besides that it's off-topic is obviously just off-topic and not VLQ. VLQ questions have low quality besides being obviously close worthy.

Jan Dvorak

@SecondRikudo why?

@bjb568 still worth dumping into the tavern

Second Rikudo

@JanDvorak Because "Very Low Quality" is not a good name for a flag.

bjb568

@JanDvorak It's kind of confusing.

@JanDvorak Of course. But I'd CV not LQ it.

Second Rikudo

22:40

Flagged because "I don't like it enough"

bjb568

Closed for "me no likey"

Brad Larson

11

A: Am I misusing the "Very Low Quality" flag?

Use VLQ for obvious, unarguable garbage. Regardless of whether or not it ends up in /review or the mod queue (and most of the time, it'll end up in both at least for a little while...) VLQ flags on questions that should be closed just create unnecessary overhead - someone else has to spend more...

I'll just leave this here. Gotta go.

bjb568

16

A: Am I misusing the "Very Low Quality" flag?

I am feeling the way you do, whenever a question is really just garbage, I tend to prefer the low-quality flag for a broader audience. Yesterday I marked the question Using Web Sources in WP8 apps [on hold] as low quality and it got declined, but closed as too broad. The message I got was ...

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 "an old tool request that isn't too demanding that uses proper english and is generally good besides that it's off-topic" can still be a spam magnet and needs to be dealt with

bjb568

What's particularly horrifying is when the VLQ flag is declined then the mod insta-deletes the question.

@JanDvorak Not "What's a great code editor that has beautiful code folding and colors and would make your daily life more productive?" being "not low quality". That's VLQ as spam magnet. But if it's harmless and unpoked since 2009 and not awful, it wouldn't constitute VLQ. And I think the preventing of VLQ flag when there is positive score mostly helps.

Jan Dvorak

22:42

@BradLarson so, 15-second rule?

bluefeet

@bjb568 examples or it didn't happen

Second Rikudo

@bluefeet Asking a non-mod to find examples of a deleted question isn't really fair though :P

Jason C

@bjb568 You know that answer doesn't support your argument for VLQ flags at all.

bjb568

@bluefeet ^

Second Rikudo

@bjb568 Mods can see your flag history, you know.

bjb568

22:45

@SecondRikudo Tell that to bluefeet.

bluefeet

@bjb568 not deleted by a mod

Second Rikudo

T-T-T-TRIPLE PING

bjb568

@bluefeet Ah, I can't tell, but I remember at the time it was deleted soon after the declining of my flag.

Andy

@bjb568 But still not insta-deleted by a mod

bluefeet

@bjb568 get 10k

bjb568

22:46

@JasonC How?

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 some askers like to delete immediately after closure

Second Rikudo

@bjb568 It could still be very quickly removed by users.

bluefeet

@bjb568 those were removed by community via roomba

Jan Dvorak

or that.

Second Rikudo

roomba?

Andy

22:47

@bluefeet status-bydesign

Jason C

@bjb568 What do you mean how? The guy tells how he used a VLQ flag, it got declined, the question was closed, and he became no longer confident in his choice of a VLQ flag. That's... not helpful to you.

bjb568

stackoverflow.com/questions/25147769/… stackoverflow.com/questions/25712680/… stackoverflow.com/questions/25712613/… stackoverflow.com/questions/25624606/… stackoverflow.com/questions/25594190/android-sockets-errors these?

@JasonC Well, it's not against me. That's my same experience.

Jan Dvorak

#1 deleted with the question

bluefeet

@bjb568 community or self-delete

Jan Dvorak

#2 roomba'd

bjb568

22:49

They're all awful anyway.

Second Rikudo

@bjb568 Question deleted, system, system, op, system, system

Jason C

@bjb568 Ok... so you lost confidence in your use of VLQ flags. Then, proper use was addressed, as above. Now you can be confident in your decisions to not use the flags when you can CV instead. So accept that and move on already.

bjb568

Haaay, Community is a mod!

Jan Dvorak

@SecondRikudo #1 is deletion by question deletion

Andy

@bjb568 But none required mod intervention.

bjb568

22:50

@JasonC But there are conflicting views so now I flag according to the most-reasonable view.

Second Rikudo

Right

Jason C

@bjb568 I don't see a lot of conflict...

bjb568

@Andy No, they don't. Exactly right. Mods shouldn't handle VLQ/NAA.

Jan Dvorak

@Andy Then I'd like something that shoves the question into LQRQ without also annoying the mods

bjb568

@JasonC Shog says VLQ unsalvageable questions. Which is what I follow.

Jan Dvorak

22:51

^

Andy

@bjb568 But they do currently and that is what your declined flags are telling you.

Jason C

Also so far none of the questions in your previous list needed VLQ flags... they were all either about to be closed, or deleted by the OP.

bjb568

@Andy I have quite a lot of helpful flags countering that.

hichris123

@bjb568 I think you misunderstand what unsalvageable means.

3

Jason C

@bjb568 No, Shog says, and I quote: "VLQ flags on questions that should be closed just create unnecessary overhead". That's pretty clear.

Jan Dvorak

22:52

@JasonC were they? The one quoted by Brad was closed by me, only after Brad quoted it

bjb568

@JasonC Well, VLQ would attract more attention but would die away as they're closed/deleted.

@JanDvorak (^ and ^^) Also that

Jan Dvorak

@bjb568 ???

bjb568

@JasonC I think that's true for the ones I flagged.

@JanDvorak (^ and ^^) references both the one above and the one two above. My post and yours.

Jason C

@JanDvorak Yes. 1. Answer deleted with question. 2. Closed as unclear. 3. 4 closevotes. 4. Deleted by OP. 5. Closed as no-code.

Not a single one of those needed a VLQ flag to help it take its natural course.

bjb568

@hichris123 "impossible to retrieve or preserve from " without abusing the edit system and wasting time.

Jason C

22:55

@bjb568 Give it up, man.

Shog9

Are y'all seriously having an argument over what I said and comparing quotes to back up your side?

bjb568

… yeah.

Jason C

@Shog9 Sort of.

Jan Dvorak

@JasonC #1 would need a VLQ flag were not the question deleted - and you can't tell in advance when a mod swoops in

bjb568

@Shog9 JUST TELL US WHAT TO FLAAAAG

(and make the flag description clear)

Jan Dvorak

22:56

@bjb568 please don't shout

bjb568

@JanDvorak :P

hichris123

@JanDvorak Smokey is going to catch him someday!

Jason C

@JanDvorak #1 is not a solid case at all. NAA (link-only) flags would have gotten that answer, or enough down-votes that it just didn't matter any more.

bjb568

whispers in italic

Shog9

flag your conscience.

Jan Dvorak

22:56

@JasonC NAA and VLQ end in the same places

Shog9

But, if it helps, here's the advice I gave a SO mod a while back

Jason C

@bjb568 Yeah just make sure when you tell us, you tell us what bjb wants to hear.

Sam

... and 3 and a half hours later VS 2013 Community has only installed 7 out of 101 components...

Shog9

> If you're drawing a distinction between close and delete when handling VLQ, you're probably over-thinking them. If it doesn't warrant you stepping in to delete, it probably doesn't warrant you taking the time to close either - the community can handle those. If your immediate reaction is "NO! BAD! AWFUL!" then the flag is correct, regardless of which action you take.

> If it's so bad that you'd be OK just deleting it, then... VLQ is correct. More downvotes are helpful. Etc. Even if you do close instead of outright deleting.

bjb568

But mods are anti-deletionist! [serious]

Jason C

22:57

@Shog9 Nope. My Shog9 quote disagrees with your Shog9 quote.

Jan Dvorak

@Shog9 can we have a community-only VLQ flag, then?

Sam

Have fun guys. Night!

Jason C

Later @Sam

Shog9

IOW, if you're flagging things as VLQ you don't honestly expect to make the mods reflexively reach for the delete button (while throwing up a little bit), you're probably doing it wrong.

Jan Dvorak

The LQRQ seems to be handling these questions well

Shog9

22:59

All that being said, that's not really how folks use VLQ on questions

bluefeet

@JanDvorak the problem is that people use the flag wrong especially on questions

bjb568

@Shog9 Isn't that just abuse/spam mostly then?

@bluefeet And you're saying the LQRQ handles them wrong too?

Braiam

cue: rename VLQ in questions to "delete this" flag

Shog9

Which means one of two things should happen:
1) remove it entirely (but lose the signal)
2) do something else with the signal (don't put it in front of moderators)

bluefeet

@bjb568 the review queue disputes doesn't decline so there is no indication that you were wrong

Jan Dvorak

23:00

I vote for #2

Braiam

seconded

Shog9

My interpretation of what the flag means to folks thus far boils down to "I hate this, why did you show this to me?"

Therefore, the correct action is to alter the status of the post such that it isn't shown readily.

bjb568

@bluefeet But are you saying their approval of them is in a large amount of cases incorrect, and it should have been "Looks OK"'d?

@Shog9 Which means delete!

Or a "softer" delete.

Shog9

It could mean delete...

Jason C

@Shog9 What it means to folks is "very low quality", which is what you guys named the flag. For reasons that boggle the mind, no surprises in interpretation were expected with that great name.

bjb568

23:01

Also #2, BTW.

bluefeet

@bjb568 I'm saying that since there is no punishment (decline) from the review queue people throw the VLQ on everything - even stuff that doesn't need it.

Second Rikudo

@bjb568 "softer" delete?

Jan Dvorak

and yet LQRQ reviewers can't delete questions from the queue

Second Rikudo

Also "softer" and "#2" don't go hand-by-hand.

bjb568

@bluefeet But would you say?

Braiam

23:02

@Shog9 how many of those flags end up with the question being closed faster?

bjb568

Anyway, I'm leaving…

Braiam

and deleted?

Shog9

@JanDvorak there we go - there's the problem. Right now, delete for questions means close, then either get 20K users involved, or wait 2 days and get 10K users involved, or wait 9 days and let the system remove it.

Jan Dvorak

... unless two rep-whores chime in in the mean time

Shog9

...or get mods involved since they can delete immediately without closing.

hichris123

23:03

@Shog9 Hmm, I could get behind that. Although I'm not sure it would really be a flag anymore... it's more like a notification to the system (not the community) that the question sucks.

Jason C

I would love to see a few months with the VLQ flag removed, then a few months with it back, and a comparison of time and number for closed/deleted questions between the two.

Shog9

Only the last one - getting mods involved - works to satisfy folks' expectations.

Braiam

@hichris123 the close flag works that way, so it isn't novel

Shog9

And yet, we've already established that mods won't delete unless it's actually garbage sickening horri-bad.

So, we have need of a third path

one that will quickly remove things from view

hichris123

@Braiam But close flags put the question in front of users, not the system like Shog proposes.

Shog9

23:04

but won't require mods

Jason C

flags tavern as VLQ, expects delete

Shog9

This room was placed in timeout for 5 seconds; the topic of this room is "MY GOD, IT'S FULL OF STARS! Wheel of blame link bolted on for your ease of use: jsfiddle.net/AYPpF/82/embedded/result/"; - conversation should be limited to that topic.

6

Jason C gets softer delete instead

Braiam

LIES! for me was like 1 second

Jason C

That may be the greatest thing you've ever done.

hichris123

@Shog9 So... our room topic is talking about the stars & blaming people for things going wrong?

Shog9

23:05

yes

clearly

Also, this is all your fault

Braiam

a Tavern without beer isn't a Tavern... nuff said

hichris123

@Shog9 Well, should I do a $(".leave").click()?

;)

Shog9

So far, I'm wildly happy with now VLQ and NAA flags are working for answers - even answers that would require 20K users to delete under normal circumstances get quickly removed by low-rep users, but removed without prejudice - they can be restored by the author if they so desire.

beer sounds good. Is it 5 O'Clock somewhere yet?

Jan Dvorak

@hichris123 -1 too much jQuery

hichris123

@Shog9 It's 6:07 here.

Jan Dvorak

23:07

It's midnight where I am

Shog9

y'all are not helpful

hichris123

@JanDvorak You should totally drop downvotes and try jQuery.

Jason C

@hichris123 Eastern time reperzent!

hichris123

Beer

Beer is an alcoholic beverage produced by the saccharification of starch and fermentation of the resulting sugar. The starch and saccharification enzymes are often derived from malted cereal grains, most commonly malted barley and malted wheat. Most beer is also flavoured with hops, which add bitterness and act as a natural preservative, though other flavourings such as herbs or fruit may occasionally be included. The preparation of beer is called brewing. Beer is the world's most widely consumed alcoholic beverage, and is the third-most popular drink overall, after water and tea. It is thought...

bluefeet

@Shog9 isn't it 5 there?

hichris123

23:08

better?

Shog9

So, we just need a conceptually equivalent path for questions - one available to low-rep users, one that's fast, and one that allows authors to lift it easily if they actually care even a little bit.

Jason C

It's 6:07 and I have a lot of scotch on my shelf; does that count

Jan Dvorak

@hichris123 I have tried jQuery. Turns out I didn't need it.

Braiam

This image stays roughly in sync with the day (assuming the Earth continues spinning). Shortcut: xkcd.com/now

^ updated

hichris123

@JasonC I'm on the other side of the timezone compared to you, though. ;)

@JanDvorak -1 you obviously didn't work hard enough.

Jan Dvorak

23:09

I'm mildly disconcerted that "united states" keeps being shortened to US rather than USA. Now, if they start shortening Europe to THEM, that will be bad

@Braiam that image is wildly out of ~~date~~ time

Braiam

@JanDvorak is accurate for me... so your problem is local

Jan Dvorak

It shows late evening for Europe. It's midnight here.

Braiam

@JanDvorak you sure?

Jan Dvorak

@Braiam OK... it shows early evening here

In my cache, midnight points to the "A" in "India"

Braiam

@JanDvorak Yes

Jan Dvorak

23:18

I believe I should blame my ISP

Braiam

btw @TimPost may forgot to translate the rate limit screen meta.pt.stackoverflow.com/q/2221/15023

Braiam

23:36

cv-plox stackoverflow.com/q/15505775/792066

hichris123

@Braiam plox? :P

How does that wiki have to do with the word "plox"?

Frank

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/48439/…

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/727855/…

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/25731343/…

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/42017/…

Braiam

@hichris123 because plox?

Frank

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/165042/…

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/11935568/…

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/5577777/…

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/4945771/uml-tool-for-moose-perl

cv-plz stackoverflow.com/questions/10835061/…

user259867

23:55

Was watching a movie and missed all the drama... For the record, I totally misuse VLQ when I'm out of CVs and I want to push some really bad question into CV queue. But it has to be worse than an average closable question for that.

Frank

How's y'all?

user259867

I think this is the only time I use VLQ on a question. And I would not need to do that if SE allowed using closeflags after running out of CVs. But that request was declined by you-know-who.

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