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2:04 AM
Should we let close reviewers of potentially duplicate questions know if the author has indicated that the target proposal(s) do not answer their question?
Want to gauge support before posting a request, since I'm not confident enough to put my rep on the line yet.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog If you think something is worth it - why not?
Its not a bad idea tho - what's the expected outcome of the feedback?
@JourneymanGeek Especially when it comes to closing questions, I've seen users who are biased toward closing questions in all cases and would be against any request that makes it more difficult, in their eyes, to close questions.
@JourneymanGeek There may be an important detail/major setback that I overlooked which would be a deal breaker
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog ah, I clearly lack sleep...
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog You mean in the review queues?
Hm, if OP thinks its a dupe, they're going to validate the dupe close
If not, it'll be in the closure queue anyway
@NathanTuggy Someone commented on the deleted question I linked that they'd rather make reopening much more difficult than closing, even if it means misrepresenting the question to reviewers. — Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog Sep 9 '18 at 2:56
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog eh
I'd worry less about the reaction you could get than the question itself
2:12 AM
The key argument I plan to use are that it prompts reviewers to leave comments either to ask for clarification as to what's not addressed in the target, or in cases where it's a blatant duplicate, explain that that's not a valid use of that option
Also, it prompts reviewers to re-survey the targets to see if it's indeed answered; sometimes, a user votes and others follow on and only tersely check the target. If the author has indicated it doesn't answer their question, then it's likely they've reviewed it themselves and didn't find their answer.
^ That is where said bias comes in. Some users are biased against any request that makes reviewers reconsider closing a question, I've seen.
Also, I've seen requests get heavy downvotes because there's an important detail that the author missed, e.g. a request for a badge that's in good faith but would encourage some negative behavior the author didn't think of.
Anyhow, is my comment here correct?
Yeah, I feel that this question is too broad and lacks focus as written. An answer to this question would have to include quite a lot of details and there are multiple perspectives on some things. I also feel that the current duplicate targets address quite a bit of it. As such, I'm moving to leave closed with the needs more focus reason. — Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog 18 mins ago
2:28 AM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I'm not touching that until I've had my post night shift nap
2 hours later…
4:40 AM
1 hour later…
@Feeds Feeling insecure about onebox
6:26 AM
Ubuntu @rene @Mithical @Sonic
6:38 AM
@MetaAndrewT. maybe xkcd above it gave it the chills...
1 hour later…
7:41 AM
@Sonic how can one become room owner automatically?
7:51 AM
> if none of the owners of a reasonably active room has shown up for a while, the most active user (whose activity must also be above a certain threshold) will be automatically made owner. This logic would also have made ircmaxell owner of the PHP room, hadn't I done it manually.

The exact values are currently: "a while" means 30 days, "reasonably active" means at least 50 messages per day (averaged over 30 days), and "certain threshold" means 10 messages per day (same averaging). But we might still tweak those numbers.
A: Chat clean up & owner rules

balphaSure. In most cases, the room owner is more or less arbitrary, because it's just the person who was first to create the (e.g.) PHP room. But of course it makes sense to have several owners, especially for rooms that are quite active and have developed their own "style", and have those owners be p...

@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Well that label represents a different way of growing things, and if done right is controlled quite extensively.
8:07 AM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog If it's just 'let them know', sure. It can probably be ignored most of the time, because relatively few people 'accept' that their post is a duplicate, even when it is. If you're actually thinking of making it harder to cast close-votes just because someone pressed a 'no' button without reading a suggested duplicate and it's answers, then this is a bad idea that will only result in more work for reviewers, which is not something good.
@Tinkeringbell oh, forgot about it. But then it means the user is very active in the room so already pretty much "associated" with the room.
But yeah, the edit is fine.
@Luuklag I have problem trusting they're really doing it the way they claim they do.
Too easy to abuse.
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Hmm. I think it's very unnecessary for manual appointments, as those are (hopefully!) usually asked about before making them XD
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 well here in the Netherlands it isn't easy to abuse. Control is very strict. Usually 1 or 2 companies get expelled from the label every year
@Tinkeringbell not sure what you mean? The whole RO thing can be easily abused as any room owner can make any other user (with enough rep) a room owner, without their consent and without any notification. I have no idea how nobody raised this concern before.
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Well, with exception of a few notorious names ;) I do think room ownerships aren't usually used like that ;)
8:19 AM
@Luuklag huh! So ideal... here I don't think anyone ever bother to check. Surely nothing official. (Sometimes reporter can dig into those things, looking for a scoop.)
Apparently Adám was appointed manually too though, so there must've been some kind of miscommunication/assumption
@Tinkeringbell of course it was manual. It was either malicious trolling, or someone was just joking around.
(e.g. adding him as RO of some Islam room.)
Heck one can just add hundreds of random users as RO, just for fun.
Since there's no rule against it, it would likely not even lead to suspension, if discovered.
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 I wouldn't be too sure about that. If someone goes adding hundreds of random users, or even 1 or 2 against their will, it will be handled if brought to mods attention.
OK, time for @Rob weekly (?) trivia... who's the singer in the below poster? :)
Being a room owner comes with an assumed sense of common sense.
8:25 AM
@Tinkeringbell there's nothing telling adding user as RO is against the rules. While it's common sense, if one will plead this case to SE staff, dry facts are on their side and it's wrong to suspend them. Warning, sure.
@Tinkeringbell well some lack such sense.... :/
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Heh. It's definitely not 'wrong' to suspend someone just because they did something that's not literally in the rules. Trust me, been there, done that XD
Trolls always do stuff that's literally not in the rules, that's how they (t)roll.
We still handle them.
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Here there is an agency that checks. And everyone wishing to run the label, they have to pay fees to have themselves checked. All regulated by law.
Depending on the size of the problem (e.g. 1 user added or 100), moderators definitely have a choice between 'remove RO privs from this person', 'warn', 'suspend'.
@Tinkeringbell Yeah, it's the former, not the latter. This change wouldn't make it any harder to vote to close.
Well as long as you make that clear, it might work. It still might be regarded as noise: we know the OP clicked 'no' when asked 'does this answer your question', but we still don't know why they think it's not a duplicate. That's usually done by editing or leaving a comment, and I don't think you can get a system smart enough to e.g. distill such reasoning from an edit or a comment to show to people.
So we're basically back at where we usually are (if they do press 'yes', their question is closed as a dupe)..
8:35 AM
@Tinkeringbell well, I meant users doing this for fun or really without knowing the impact.
The goals are: 1. notify reviewers that the author may have reviewed the proposed target and found that it didn't address their question, 2. prompt reviewers to double check the target to see if it is indeed covered and not simply follow on with other voters, 3. if it's not clear, prompt to leave a comment asking why that question doesn't address it, and 4. in the case of blatant duplicates, prompt to leave a comment regarding misuse of that option.
@Luuklag I think here it's the same on the paper but... like I said, zero enforcement, so anyone just do whatever they want, for highest profit possible.
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Okay those usually don't do 100s at a time, and they usually stop once someone makes it clear they're not amused, and learn from the experience.
8:50 AM
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 You'll need to pick a different challenge:
Oct 24 at 14:49, by Rob
There aren't reliable OCR tools online for Hebrew, Yiddish,etc.
1 hour later…
10:10 AM
Q: How do you divide the Muzzarella pizza into 7 parts?

problemofficer - n.f. MonicaThe current Google doodle in my region is about dividing pizzas into different numbers of slices. I am stuck at level 5 where you have a to divide a Muzzarella pizza into 7 slices using at most 3 cuts. How do I do that? I think I need to get to the state where I have 1+3 slices and then double t...

I could've just asked on the appropriate site and earned cheap points yesterday XD
10:48 AM
Welcome to Arqade! Sorry but this answer doesn't differ from the accepted one. — pinckerman 2 hours ago
@cyclops -- Tavern-cut is the only way to go for large cracker-thin crust pizza. — Dave X 14 hours ago
@Tinkeringbell tru dat
@Rob but you did OCR with Hebrew pretty well in the past, or was it @Luuk perhaps?
Meta Andy
Is the answer: "Some obscure person, who sings poorly"?
@Rob this can describe most singers.... ;)
Like the last few.
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Let's try you, with an easy question - Who is this:
11:27 AM
@Tinkeringbell This question you commented on has four reopen votes. Not commenting on the validity of the duplicate closure, but I still think it lacks a lot of focus, as I commented there. To be clear, your comment there says you think the same?
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yeah, definitely.
I can't review to leave it closed now since I participated in an earlier reopen review
@Tinkeringbell If it gets reopened through an external vote, would you re-close it immediately as needs more focus?
In general, MSE doesn't often need intervention like that, as the userbase is usually pretty good at doing such things themselves. But given the topic, I might. It often seems people here are hesitant to hold any questions about drama to the same standards as questions about trite stuff like pluralization bugs and downvotes.
I'd probably end up discussing this with other mods first.
11:42 AM
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 I once did some OCR on hand-written and printed labels. Just black on white, that was already pain enough
@Tinkeringbell Which seems appropriate
I do think even a few years on, my main concern is drama/drama fatigue
@JourneymanGeek Having two sets of standards is appropriate?
(where the one for drama is lower than the one for trite stuff?)
@Tinkeringbell Well - kinda
Less drama as much as 'notability'
The trite stuff's easily handled (and you know I prefer a laxer standard for dupe closures :D)
In this case, as with the trite stuff - my standard's always been "does this benefit the community?"
^ Spam
@Rob beg your pardon?
Do you mean smokey's last post ? :D
11:53 AM
Yes, both.
So, does it, in it's current form, do you think? Because that's the point we were discussing, that there currently is no merit to the discussion, there's no problem it's attempting to solve. It's just another user posting about some drama.

So, I might single-handedly close it again if it's reopened (I agree it might not be a duplicate, but that still doesn't mean you just reopen posts because the close reason is wrong, that's why we have other options in the reopen queue except 'original close reason wasn't resolved')
@Tinkeringbell ooh, In an ideal world, I'd leave it open
It isn't an ideal world, so I'm for a closehammer
@Rob without Googling looks like Ahinoam Nini
(spelling might be off too, didn't check)
@JourneymanGeek Noted :)
Took you long enough.
11:58 AM
How did you find her? "Famous Israeli Singer" search?
@Rob no, I was away it doesn't count. ;)
Googling the image wouldn't have worked, I checked.
@Rob rare, but happens, yeah. So how you found it?
Searching for even more obscure singer when she came up.
lol yeah reverse image search bring results for "cosmetic dentistry". :D
and eyebrow waxing.
12:01 PM
@Rob she's not obscure, one of few Israeli singers who are famous (and successful? Not sure) outside of Israel. She even sang in the Vatican.
What about Nana, that's who I was looking for, you would have guessed Barbra easy (even my spellcheck was ready with the second name).
Sadly can't have the opposite, i.e. foreign female singers singing in front of our religious leaders since our religion (Judaism) forbids women from singing.
6 mins ago, by Shadow Wizard Is Vaccinated V3
(spelling might be off too, didn't check)
@Rob I was close, "ch" instead of only "h".
@Rob actually I don't know who you mean...
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Probably wouldn't like the Pope preaching either.
12:06 PM
Unless there's also Banana involved?
"Nana Banana" is a song performed by Israeli singer Netta. The song was released as a digital download on 10 May 2019 as the third single from her debut extended play Goody Bag. The song was written by Nathan Goshen, Stav Beger and Netta Barzilai. == Live performances == Netta performed the song live on 18 May 2019 at the Eurovision Song Contest 2019 as one of the interval acts which took place at the Expo Tel Aviv in Tel Aviv, Israel. == Track listing == == Personnel == Credits adapted from Tidal. Stav Beger – producer, composer, background vocals, engineer, keyboards, programmer Nathan Goshen...
@Rob still better than just banning them from singing.
Never heard of her. :)
You forgot.
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 A female Pope singing, while eating a ham sandwich. 🤯
Found her in Israel:
But still, I don't remember ever hearing about her before.
12:24 PM
Argh, why does apple glue their mice, instead of just making them click
@Luuklag Glue traps?
Also arn't modern apple mice all capasitive ?
@JourneymanGeek Well it was quite easy to disamble my mouse, my scrollwheel was filled with filth, and clean it off. Putting it back together now is a pain, as I need to glue it in place.
Ioanna "Nana" Mouskouri (Greek: Ιωάννα "Νάνα" Μούσχουρη [i.oˈana ˈnana ˈmusxuri]; born 13 October 1934) is a Greek singer. Over the span of her career, she has released over 200 albums in at least twelve languages, including Greek, French, English, German, Dutch, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Hebrew, Welsh, Mandarin Chinese and Corsican.Mouskouri became well known throughout Europe for the song "The White Rose of Athens", recorded first in German as "Weiße Rosen aus Athen" as an adaptation of her Greek song "Σαν σφυρίξεις τρείς φορές" (San sfyríxeis tris forés, "When you whistle three times")....
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 I guess she was too famous, in your neck of the woods.
My first idea was better:
33 mins ago, by Rob
What about Nana, that's who I was looking for, you would have guessed Barbra easy (even my spellcheck was ready with the second name).
1:00 PM
@Luuklag Set your secondary click:
then you can paste with your mouse. :)
1:50 PM
copy/pasted text with spam link added (SD report) german.stackexchange.com/a/67995/20744
@tripleee poof
and another new community joined
gotta catch em all
there's a userscript by Glorfindel I believe
yeah I don't have a real need for that, I just wanna grow "organically" xD
2:23 PM
@Luuklag grow what? ;)
!!/grow up
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 No such command 'grow'.
2:51 PM
@Luuklag required for the usual, unneeded promotional hat "Join a new community"
3:03 PM
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 potatoes ofcourse
@Luuklag ohh
3:44 PM
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 Why don't you like @Luuklag potatoes.
4:03 PM
4:13 PM
Hic sunt dracones
Q: We're Migrating our JavaScript

Benjamin HodgsonTL;DR: We’re making a substantial repayment on our JavaScript technical debt. Apologies in advance for any bugs as we work through it! Stack Overflow's JavaScript setup hasn't substantially changed since, like, 2008. Here are a few fun facts about the way we build our JS. The process to install ...

4:28 PM
@Rob :D
@SPArcheon :D
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 No such command ':d'.
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 you hate that distro?
@SPArcheon always nice to drop in a room and see that one again ;)
5:41 PM
Is there a way to guess which scripts are the most commonly-used?
like, which userscripts are in use the most?
Yeah. I was kinda hoping maybe StackApps could say... I guess the post scores there?
that ^
but a lot of scripts only go on Github.
or get used directly from MSE or MSO
or chat, etc
skipping stackapps
5:45 PM
Hmmm. Yeah. So, Benjamin wants me to give a list of 4-5 most used ones...
socvr has socvr.org/tools/userscripts and github.com/SO-Close-Vote-Reviewers/UserScripts but we don't have download/ install counts
also probably need a distinction, not all userscripts even interact with the page's javascript
Yeah. that's true. I guess the most used may not even be 100% the most important - some may be used less but are critical...
this is my active list i.stack.imgur.com/Scizp.png on a q/a page
some of those are meh
all of mine are cosmetic
5:49 PM
SOUP and SOX might be the most commonly used.
Although they've gotten less useful over the years.
the chat extension i use is the biggest one, but chat isn't part of this update
Soup is an addon, though, right?
Is that the same thing?
I use it with Tampermonkey, it's a userscript.
Maybe I'm thinking of PorkChat.
Yeah, SOUP and SOX are a collection of userscripts, packaged into 1 userscript
5:51 PM
@Catija Scold Button should be in the top 10 in every chat room @ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 is in...
@Catija from SE perspective / the issue is the same. An addon and a userscript might / will rely on the global StackExchange javascript object. That is what Benjamin is interested in (I guess).
So... what's the difference? One lives in the browser directly and the other works through a monkey riding on the back of the browser?
@ShadowWizardIsVaccinatedV3 This took a turn. Man faked vaccine passport for wife, wife's employer found out, so he (and wife) decided to just kill everyone so they wouldn't be arrested and possibly lose custody O.o
extensions can't directly interact with the javascript that is being changed other than by attaching a script file
userscripts are effectively attaching a script file
and therefore can in the same way
@Tinkeringbell WTF? That's horrible and tragic.
5:56 PM
i'd expect these changes to not have as big of an impact on most userscripts as design changes do
the exception will generally be power users, aka mods and users of SOCVR, for example
@Catija Yeah... The lengths people go to just to avoid a vaccine and/or the consequences of not taking one :/
the guy who tried to beat it with a prosthetic arm
i'd like to have been a fly on the wall for that one
@Tinkeringbell tbh, I think those folks are very wrong in the head
@KevinB Heh, yeah. Same here.
@JourneymanGeek Of course they have to be, because accepting they are completely normal would mean the neighbor could do the same tomorrow.
@Catija Stackapps is acumilative score tho
In theory a unupdated app that was popular might have a high vote and a low scream factor
6:22 PM
@rene Told ya, it is a macro.
7:14 PM
When we went to breakfast on Sunday, the restaurant was showing episodes of MLP behind their counter and Bennett couldn't take his eyes off it - even without the audio, he would only eat anything during commercial breaks. And so we watched the first two episodes on Netflix when we got home.
7:37 PM
David Gibson on December 07, 2021
How do you attract technical talent? What do developers care about when they evaluate new opportunities? We surveyed over 500 developers and the findings might surprise you.
@Feeds New data: what chat feeds look for in future onebox opportunities
@Feeds that's a whole of words to say "money"
It would have been a lot nicer if one week ago, the team had announced that "the new profile page is scheduled to be rolled out one week from today, on December 7"
it wouldn't have done anything fruitful
an image would have been included, people would still hate it, and it'd still get released
8:16 PM
Stack Exchange's design team needs to understand something: just because you believe some feature isn't useful or clutters doesn't mean that everyone else believes the same way. Removing something can be seen as forcing your belief on others.
8:27 PM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Stack Exchange users on the other hand need to understand that they're on a site owned by a company without paying for it, and as such they're not entitled to forcing their beliefs upon said company.
@Tinkeringbell Neither side should force
I know of Jeff's post "Listen to your community, but don't let them tell you what to do"
Glad we got that out of the way, now on to tomorrow.
Thank you for the thoughtful feedback! I'm inclined to agree that we've strayed too much from a summary view. This view is the product of prioritizing building a responsive layout over making the decisions of what information should and shouldn't be shown. This issue seems most apparent with the "Answers" section, where it's furthest from a summary. We'll be reconsidering how to strike the balance between this view being detailed and being easy to digest. — Dan Cormier Nov 21 at 19:28
Also, focusing on one singular thing can make you lose sight of other things.
9:19 PM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog How you say something is just as important as how you say it tho
and I feel like the Dev team's suddenly "FIX ALL THE THINGS"
9:33 PM
I mean in fairness they fixed the fact that it was not responsive
I really don't love how they fixed it, but they did fix it.
Well and more there's a lot of changes all at once all of a sudden
that tends to happen when you need to update an old design to a new one
@Catija Benjamin could create and publish an API that Stack Apps could register with and use to access the webpage, that way people could more easily maintain their scripts and SE could hope to obtain better usage statistics. --- Knowing the most popular doesn't equate to knowing the most used or which are more likely to break.
could inject some logic that tracks method usage
9:46 PM
The SOBotics room is probably a better place to ask, many people from there never visit The Tavern.
SOCVR has a number of scripters and power users who might be helpful as well
@Catija to a limited extent, you might be able to look at API keys in requests made by the scripts, but that's only going to work for some scripts, as not all will make API requests
10:01 PM
It will be "The Rise of the Machines" - some obscure upcoming changes to the JavaScript will trigger an aneurysm / schism / schistosomiasis mutating the scripts into insane zombies that make meaningless requests at random intervals.
@Rob @RyanM If y'all have ideas about how to make this less painful, I know that they'd be appreciated. Things like "Don't get rid of JQuery" might be difficult since it's kinda old but there is a good discussion internally that I'm following about how we can reduce the pain on both sides as much as possible. An API is an option but I think it's a decent amount of work to create and I'm not sure that's a short term solution.
(feel free to leave an answer to Benjamin's post - is what I'm getting at) I'm sometimes OK with being an intermediary but when it gets a bit more technical than I can manage, it's usually better to speak directly to the devs :D
: /
10:26 PM
@Catija hm, also, I suspect not everyone will be comfortable with tracking telemetry
10:47 PM
@JourneymanGeek Not quite sure what that means.
@Catija basically some folks will be uncomfortable with an API that tracks what userscripts and such they use
(I hope that makes sense, Yay, Nightshift)
Oh. I don't know whether we'd do that... I think what we're mostly interested in is knowing what bits apps use.
So I think what we're likely going to do is ask that... which bits do we need to be careful about poking at and that we should eventually consider putting into an API.
If all else fails, meta post asking people to report stuff that's broken. Ye ol scream test...
I mean... yeah... but it's better to help people by not having things break and giving them a heads-up that we're poking things... so they can be ready with a fix.
@Catija Understood, I'll see if I can find a simple and standard / well accepted library to suggest directly to Benjamin.
It can get complicated: towardsdatascience.com/… or not:
11:57 PM
@Catija As best I can tell it's a "chicken and the egg" problem, old scripts would need to be updated to collect usage statistics; which the author could then submit, answering your question: "where can it break, most or worst". --- After the change to Deno there are usage statistics (deno.land/benchmarks) that show what's popular and how many cycles it's using. --- I think Benjamin needs someone more qualified than me to discuss this with him.

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