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12:03 AM
@πάνταῥεῖ So maybe he will get the hint we really really really don't want him around ....
He's self deleted his account again.
 
@DavidPostill I don't believe so. Let's wait a few days. I'd stay away from commenting their shit at all. My non constructive comments were meant for you and the other feeders.
 
*sigh*
2
let's not, kay?
go delete-vote the question instead :P
 
@πάνταῥεῖ Eh. While I get where you're coming from, trolling the troll doesn't do anything good.
Better to just flag and go. Editing their post into that pic is definitely not the way to go, either.
 
12:36 AM
@fbueckert I did that once yes, and I admit it was abuse by me. I've rolled the edit back, after the post was deleted finally.
 
@πάνταῥεῖ no feeding
just R/A flag (and maybe one custom flag) and move on
 
 
5 hours later…
5:45 AM
@fbueckert agree, trying to troll a troll is like fighting fire with fire. You have a chance to win, but much bigger chance to just cause a bigger fire.
 
6:22 AM
windows 10 @rene @Art @Glor @Mith @Sonic
Super Sonic!
 
whoa, YELLOW!
My wife will like it, she's a big fan of basketball team having yellow as its dominant color. :D
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask Seems you didn't quite get the reference: sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Sonic
 
 
1 hour later…
8:10 AM
@SonictheMaskedWerehog didn't look for one... :)
But yeah, it fits.
 
8:54 AM
@ShadowWizardWearingMask "what caused the Big Bang?" Short answer: Nobody knows. It might not even be a sensible question. It could be like "What's 1km south of the South Pole?" Or "What letter comes before 'A' in the alphabet?"
Modern science doesn't attempt to say what the world is really like. Instead, it makes theories that are like maps or models of some of the world's features. We then try to find how well the model fits the existing observations that are relevant to that model, and how well it can be used to make predictions of stuff we haven't observed yet.
 
@PM2Ring "What letter comes before 'A' in the alphabet?" - that's just undefined. However, the Big Bang did occur, that's a fact - so something must have caused it, we just don't know what. And likely will never know, but still, think it's a valid/sensible question. ;)
 
@PM2Ring To be padantic "What's 1km south of the South Pole?" A line of latitude answer the question perfectly :)
 
@PM2Ring I do agree to that.
@DavidPostill won't you fall off Earth? :D
 
So when astrophysicists say stuff like "the era of nucleosynthesis lasted for about 17 minutes, starting from 3 minutes after the start of the Big Bang" they are talking about what the mathematical model says. They aren't saying that it's definitely true of the real world, but it's our current best description of what we think happened.
 
so, how does that allow us to make predictions?
Unless we somehow reproduce the conditions that - according to our best guess - existed 17 minutes after the big bang, we won't be able to test that prediction
 
9:12 AM
@ShadowWizardWearingMask What came before the Big Bang may be undefined too. In Big Bang theory, time & space as we know them started at the instant of the Big Bang. Logically, a cause has to occur before its effect. But how can you have a cause before time itself existed? Of course, there might be some kind of time before time as we know it existed.
@JohnDvorak We can easily create conditions in the lab, with particle accelerators, that match the extreme energies found in the later phases of the Big Bang. But it gets tricky when you want to get closer to the start than about a trillionth of a second.
 
Fun fact, we are already getting data we have no explanation for, just by staring into the sky. And I have a sneaking suspicion those ginormous machines we build deep underground won't help explain that data.
 
A lot of the stuff in Big Bang theory doesn't come from looking into space with various kinds of telescopes (although some of it certainly does). Most of what we believe about the Big Bang comes from looking at atomic & subatomic stuff when we subject it to extreme energy.
 
@JohnDvorak Do you have an example (that can be understood by a layman)?
 
True, but the real confusing data doesn't happen in the extreme energy regime, but in the extreme distance regime
 
Astrophysics has come a long way in the last century or so, by combining info we've learned by studying matter on the largest & the smallest scales. I find that very philosophically satisfying.
 
9:20 AM
@DavidPostill there are multiple ways to measure how quickly the universe expands. You would think that by overlapping the error bars from multiple methods you'd get a pretty good idea about the speed of expansion. But those error bars don't overlap.
 
@DavidPostill There's no line of latitude 1km south of the South Pole. When you're at the South Pole you can't go any further south, every direction you go is north.
 
@PM2Ring You can leave the ground
 
Still north. You're now travelling directly away from the south pole, so that's north by definition.
 
@JohnDvorak Sure. But going up (or down) isn't the same as going south.
 
Oookay. Let's define "south".
Rigorously.
 
9:24 AM
How do you define it? I guess it's the point of the magnetic pole, right?
 
If moving south meant following the field lines, it would mean that when you're near the south pole, and you're moving closer to it, you're moving south to a lesser degree than if you dug underground
 
@JohnDvorak Ok, that is a problem. But it's not a calamity. The different methods make some different assumptions, and the discrepancy implies that some of those assumptions are faulty. And hopefully, by making more measurements, and coming up with yet another way to make & interpret those measurements, we'll figure out where we're screwing up. ;)
 
@PM2Ring That would be nice. The problem is that the more we know, the harder it gets to know more.
 
@PM2Ring So if I'm in a balloon at the the south pole and I rise to 1K elevation what direction have I travelled in?
 
@DavidPostill Up.
 
9:29 AM
We can define moving south as decreasing your latitude - then it's impossible to go southwards from the south pole
If we define moving south as following the magnetic field lines, then the quickest way to move south from the north pole is to move directly away from the south pole.
 
@terdon Let's not bring the magnetic poles into it. That just makes things messy. The magnetic poles move, and are generally a fair distance from the geographic poles. The North & South Poles are the points on the Earth's surface that the Earth's rotation axis passes through.
If you stand at the Pole during the night (eg in the middle of winter), and watch the stars, they move in concentric circles around the sky. The centre of that circle is the point directly above your head.
 
@PM2Ring If you ignore spin drift ...
 
@JohnDvorak That's true, but nobody said that it gets easier. ;) But it is frustrating that it's now almost impossible for anybody who's not an expert to understand stuff that's on the cutting edge of science. Even people with PhDs in physics have difficulties understanding physics stuff that's too far outside their field.
 
9:51 AM
But getting back to the cause of the Big Bang... In the early years of the 20th century, two great theories were born: Quantum Mechanics and General Relativity. QM tells us about small stuff: atoms & subatomic particles. GR tells us about gravity, space, and time. They are both very successful theories. Unfortunately, we haven't found a satisfactory way to unite them.
That mostly doesn't matter, because gravity is so weak, it's normally only relevant on the large scale, where QM can be ignored. However, for stuff like inside black holes, and the very earliest phases of the Big Bang you need a theory of gravity that can work with quantum stuff. Without such a theory of quantum gravity, we can't make sensible statements about the core of a black hole at the subatomic scale, or the state of the universe at less than around 10^-43 seconds.
 
@PM2Ring Fair. So, by that definition, if you were to move perpendicularly away from the pole, therefore, in the direction where you achieve the maximum increase in distance between you and the pole with each step, you could argue that you are therefore moving north. Since north can only be defined as being diametrically opposed to south. So moving straight up from the south pole could be called moving north!
 
We can make some insensible statements about the core of a black hole quite confidently though :D
 
Ah, untestable statements are always the best.
 
Parallel universe? Sure. Infinitely many of them, inside each black hole!
And if you make the black hole spin as fast as possible and then a bit more, we can even get in and out of these parallel universes
 
That tiny time interval is known as the Planck time. In some approaches to quantum gravity, the "flow" of time becomes uncertain at that scale. That is, in the first few hundred Planck times, the directions of past and future aren't well-defined, so it's not possible to determine a coherent order of events, and our normal notions of causality break down.
 
9:59 AM
Maybe we can even do it without getting bathed by an infinitely strong wall of gamma rays!
 
If that's true, then the notion of the event which was the start of the Big Bang is fuzzy.
 
Are you sure you can do away with causality?
 
@terdon I suppose it could, except it doesn't bring you closer to the North Pole, so I'd prefer to just call that direction "up". Or maybe "out".
@JohnDvorak No, I'm not. But the universe isn't obliged to conform to my ideas of how a cosmos ought to be organised. ;)
@DavidPostill I'm not sure what you mean by spin drift. The polar axis is fairly stable, although (like a spinning top) it does rotate through a small circle with a cycle of about 22,000 years, IIRC.
 
How big the small circle, actually?
 
Make that about 25,000 years, although that figure is disputed according to en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_precession
@JohnDvorak The axis is tilted by about 22° from the ecliptic (Earth's orbital plane). So in 12,500 years the axis will be pointing about 45° away from where it points now.
 
10:12 AM
ah, gotcha. Thanks
 
Rob
@terdon "Up" from the "south pole" is "south", "down" from the "south pole" is "north":
The equatorial coordinate system is a celestial coordinate system widely used to specify the positions of celestial objects. It may be implemented in spherical or rectangular coordinates, both defined by an origin at the centre of Earth, a fundamental plane consisting of the projection of Earth's equator onto the celestial sphere (forming the celestial equator), a primary direction towards the vernal equinox, and a right-handed convention.The origin at the centre of Earth means the coordinates are geocentric, that is, as seen from the centre of Earth as if it were transparent. The fundamental plane...
But the universe's coordinates are not Earth based:
The galactic coordinate system is a celestial coordinate system in spherical coordinates, with the Sun as its center, the primary direction aligned with the approximate center of the Milky Way galaxy, and the fundamental plane parallel to an approximation of the galactic plane but offset to its north. It uses the right-handed convention, meaning that coordinates are positive toward the north and toward the east in the fundamental plane. == Galactic longitude == Longitude (symbol l) measures the angular distance of an object eastward along the galactic equator from the galactic center. Analogous...
 
@JohnDvorak That Wikipedia article has a couple of nice star maps in the "Changing pole stars" section.
@terdon That's one of the problems with trying to develop a quantum gravity theory. Even if we do overcome the mathematical problems of uniting GR & QM, it's really hard or downright impossible to make direct observations of stuff that needs a quantum gravity theory to describe it.
 
10:28 AM
@PM2Ring Ah, but that just shows how the concept is limited. You could argue (and I'm not really being serious, of course) that you can define moving North either as moving towards the North pole or moving directly away from the South.
@PM2Ring yep.
@Rob Ah, but not in relation to the planet!
 
Rob
The "up" and "down" terms being used were in relation to the pull of gravity, which has nothing to do with 'direction'; unless you think about it in Earth based terms:
1 hour ago, by DavidPostill
@PM2Ring So if I'm in a balloon at the the south pole and I rise to 1K elevation what direction have I travelled in?
 
@terdon "you can define moving North either as moving towards the North pole or moving directly away from the South." True. And yes, the concept is limited, which brings us back to my earlier point that our models of the world are (by necessity) limited, and we shouldn't be too surprised when they don't behave well near their boundaries. :)
 
Rob
The north and south celestial poles are the two imaginary points in the sky where the Earth's axis of rotation, indefinitely extended, intersects the celestial sphere. The north and south celestial poles appear permanently directly overhead to observers at the Earth's North Pole and South Pole, respectively. As the Earth spins on its axis, the two celestial poles remain fixed in the sky, and all other points appear to rotate around them, completing one circuit per day (strictly, per sidereal day). The celestial poles are also the poles of the celestial equatorial coordinate system, meaning they...
 
@PM2Ring too true.
 
@PM2Ring cause and reason don't rely on time, as far as I can tell. From all we know, something that will happen in 10000 years might have caused the Big Bang.
 
10:38 AM
@Rob I guess I should've been more pedantic earlier, and said "What point or (points) on the surface of the Earth are located 1km south of the South Pole?"
 
Rob
If one were to climb the North Pole they would travel north.
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask Ok, that's a valid viewpoint. But the usual understanding of causality is that it operates from past to future. The mathematics of GR doesn't exactly forbid time loops, but it would be rather surprising if our universe contains such loops. See en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Closed_timelike_curve & en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novikov_self-consistency_principle
 
@Rob Surely that's the North Pole's pole.
 
Rob
10:56 AM
21 mins ago, by Rob
The north and south celestial poles are the two imaginary points in the sky where the Earth's axis of rotation, indefinitely extended, intersects the celestial sphere. The north and south celestial poles appear permanently directly overhead to observers at the Earth's North Pole and South Pole, respectively. As the Earth spins on its axis, the two celestial poles remain fixed in the sky, and all other points appear to rotate around them, completing one circuit per day (strictly, per sidereal day). The celestial poles are also the poles of the celestial equatorial coordinate system, meaning they...
Don't think of walking on the surface of a pear shaped object as defining north and south, think of climbing a pole as going north and sliding down as going south - if such a pole were located at the north.
Back in 1 1/2
 
11:42 AM
@Rob The photograph was showing a pole. At the North Pole.
 
The Chandler wobble or variation of latitude is a small deviation in the Earth's axis of rotation relative to the solid earth, which was discovered by American astronomer Seth Carlo Chandler in 1891. It amounts to change of about 9 metres (30 ft) in the point at which the axis intersects the Earth's surface and has a period of 433 days. This wobble, which is a nutation, combines with another wobble with a period of one year, so that the total polar motion varies with a period of about 7 years. The Chandler wobble is an example of the kind of motion that can occur for a spinning object that is not...
@PM2Ring ^^^
 
@DavidPostill Yeah, ok. But that's so small, you aren't going to notice it just eyeballing the stars. ;) And of course there are other movements too. At the North Pole you're on an ice sheet floating on the sea, and at the South Pole you're on an ice sheet "floating" on a continent which is slowly drifting.
 
12:03 PM
🔭
 
12:14 PM
@terdon can one dance on that pole?
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask Only if one is a pole dancer :)
 
Rob
12:32 PM
By the same argument, things are of course much different on the Moon; where both poles are adjacent:
 
@Rob Erm what?
 
that's a huge misunderstanding of poles...
the suns north and south poles, are beside each other on earth.
 
> The lunar north pole is the northernmost point on the Moon, lying diametrically opposite the lunar south pole.
 
Rob
👨‍⚕️
 
I identify by the marsian north pole, and I bow to Venusian santa.
 
1:01 PM
@djsmiley2kStaysInside Thank you, I can sign autographs
 
19 messages moved to Chimney
 
Nom nom nom nom
An election again, and meta.SO is fun to read, again
@ArtOfCode SIGH
You simply do not consider the possibilty that a hypothesis that stands against the majority, whatever it is, can be right, even though it is not likely. It is that simple, by all respect. — Lorenz 2 hours ago
Some delicious drama there
> How are you not a mod yet? Let's change this! I mean, I think you're a sucker for running for this position, and I disagree with a lot of stuff you write elsewhere. But you're clearly experienced, qualified for the task, and have a deep understanding of the community background.
Uh, thank you?
> I will delete everything.
As your attention grabber, I think that'd work against you lad.
. . .
What does it take to coax @rene into running?
If you're overweight, the stress will certainly help you decrease some of that BMI
Uh um, there will be free watering and sunbathing sessions
 
1:34 PM
@M.A.R. first you'd have to remove him from the soil
 
@JohnDvorak I dunno, I always picture him as one of those sneaky sliding plants
That, or one of those carnivorous ones with a laughing face when he VTD's a question
Rapid plant movement encompasses movement in plant structures occurring over a very short period, usually under one second. For example, the Venus flytrap closes its trap in about 100 milliseconds. The dogwood bunchberry's flower opens its petals and fires pollen in less than 0.5 milliseconds. The record is currently held by the white mulberry tree, with flower movement taking 25 microseconds, as pollen is catapulted from the stamens at velocities in excess of half the speed of sound—near the theoretical physical limits for movements in plants.These rapid plant movements differ from the more common...
Quoting
> Rene Florian founded the Rapid plant organization to combat plant cruelty.
> The rapid plan movement revolves around peaceful communications with mostly stationary homo sapiens over common environmental issues.
 
🤐
 
@user400654 There's something on your lips
 
@M.A.R. zipper
Very common, just not on lips.
 
2:08 PM
Ryan Donovan on July 08, 2020
Many developers write software that’s performance sensitive. After all, that’s one of the major reasons why we still pick C or C++ language these days. When done right, supplementing C or C++ code with vector intrinsics is exceptionally good for performance.
 
@Feeds What's the connection between the image and the rest of the post?
 
@DavidPostill "single Instruction, multiple data" - maybe those men are the data?
 
Could be. They just look like they are meditating though, not doing any real work :)
 
@M.A.R. a server
@DavidPostill mediation is important, one can levitate, or even live without eating or drinking.
Prahlad Jani, also known as Mataji or Chunriwala Mataji, (13 August 1929 ― 26 May 2020) was an Indian breatharian monk who claimed to have lived without food and water since 1940. He said that the goddess Amba sustained him. However, the findings of the investigations on him have been kept confidential and viewed with skepticism. He made several media and public appearances. == Biography == Prahlad Jani was born on 13 August 1929 in Charada village in British India (now in Mehsana district, Gujarat, India). According to Jani, he left his home in Gujarat at the age of seven, and went to live in...
 
Spiders can go a whole year without eating
 
2:21 PM
ROTFLMAO
@JohnDvorak That's nothing:
> Tardigrades, which are also known as space bears or moss piglets, are able to survive for up to 30 years without food or water and endure temperature extremes of up to 150 degrees celsius, the deep sea and the frozen vacuum of space.
 
none of which they'll ever need to
 
 
1 hour later…
3:25 PM
Seems Tavern has got busy again. back to the usage level it was at in summer 2018.
 
🚽
 
@user1271772 That's because I've joined the room :)
 
@DavidPostill You have done a very good thing for the community.
 
@user1271772 👍
 
 
1 hour later…
5:08 PM
@user1271772 that's something only Norm will know for sure. Are you Norm?
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask Well I am normal if that helps ...
 
5:34 PM
@ShadowWizardWearingMask Haha! Who's Norm? Is it a community manager? Or SE employee? My statement was just based on observations. Also: The last time I came here during a happy hour, someone (I think it was you?) said "Happy hour has been dead for a long time"
 
5:46 PM
@user1271772 and it's still dead, it's on Friday when usually nobody is around. ;)
Norm has more stats than most SE staff, now without Jon and Shog probably more than everyone. He would come here and throw numbers around.
@DavidPostill but are you human? :D
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask Should we change the date/time of Happy Hour then?
 
6:02 PM
Nah
Typical Norm stuff:
Dec 4 '15 at 0:52, by user259867
I think Review Audit Detector is not such a bad idea: I've advertised it on both meta.SO and meta.math, and the review system hasn't collapsed. Those who will install it probably aren't robo-reviewers to begin with, just people sick of questionable audits driven by random voting patterns.
 
6:16 PM
Happy Hour was originally for reviews?
 
Don't think so.
It was for fun.
 
I thought it was an event Shog created when they were testing out events and it just stuck.
But that was before my time :)
 
Think this is the source of Happy Hour:
Sep 2 '10 at 22:50, by Michael Mrozek
Feature request: Add countdown to drinking somewhere in the right panel
Before my time too.
 
6:56 PM
10
Q: The new moderator agreement is now live for moderators to accept across the network

CatijaToday we’re announcing that the new moderator agreement is live and the existing moderators are being asked to accept it. This has been a great collaboration to get from a draft in November 2019 to the final agreement in July 2020. It’s gone through several phases of review internally, including ...

 
Rob
I was wondering why that wasn't the current topic ....
 
> Starting today moderators have sixty days to accept V2 or decline it and request to step down.
I guess that's also going to be a way of weeding out inactive mods...
 
rude, inactive mods aren't weeds
 
Rob
There's certainly both fine print and backpedaling in that announcement.
 
7:12 PM
@Mithical As far as I can tell, moderators who take no action won't lose their diamonds once the deadline lapses. Their account will just be in the state where they've been given a diamond but haven't accepted the agreement yet.
 
@SonictheMaskedWerehog The diamonds will get removed is what we have been told on the moderator-side announcement
(but that they'll also expedite requests for reinstatement if you missed the deadline)
 
@user400654 so what are they?
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask wallflowers? :)
 
muurbloempje
 
7:18 PM
> The Wallflowers are an American rock band formed in Los Angeles in 1989 by singer-songwriter Jakob Dylan and guitarist Tobi Miller. The band has gone through a number of personnel changes but has remained centered on Dylan.
@rene you're here!
 
@DavidPostill omg never heard of this term but it describes me perfectly, IRL. Kudos! :D
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask It used to be me as well. I had an epiphany and became an extrovert :)
 
Took a different character for my virtual identity, had to since my name is taken from RPG. ;)
@DavidPostill since that party?
Think such a change can happen as result of a good friend pushing enough towards it.
My friends were like me, so...
 
7:34 PM
@ShadowWizardWearingMask Nah. It was before then. When I finally shook off the effects of being bullied at school and uni. I'm not going to share all the details right now, but it was an individual challenge in a "confront your fears" exercise. My fear was not being loved (as a result of the years of bullying). The epiphany was realising the other 30 people in the workshop loved me for who I was not who I thought I was. It was an emotional and life changing few minutes.
 
7:50 PM
 
8:06 PM
@DavidPostill well, glad for you! ;>
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask 👍
 
@DavidPostill Heh, I think my ESRD made me an extrovert
I was BULLIED BY FATE
 
@M.A.R. Oh. Didn't realise you have that :/
 
@DavidPostill Meh, it's mostly the butt of jokes now
Case in point.
Heh, apparently "edgelord" is a cartoon character?
 
8:25 PM
I'm really in doubt if I should try to give some formatting to Catija's announcement
No I shouldn't, @Catija beat me to it :)
 
@ShadowWizardWearingMask The tone doesn't seem either nihilistic or absolutely objective and devoid of emotion, so no, not Norm.
 
@M.A.R. correct!
 
8:50 PM
@Luuklag This is what I get for writing it in a Google Doc... I had to add formatting at the end and just didn't take enough time on it.
 
Lewis, changes to the gamification system are often met with some sort of initial resistance and inertia, even before a thorough critical analysis. It's an established trade-off; people familiar with the system can't ignore that gamification can be an (ideally secondary) incentive, and that it also enables forms of inevitable abuse. As a result, you have to provide evidence that a certain change will be extraordinarily beneficial with little cost and effort, even though most agree that the current system could be improved in one way or another. Thought experiments don't fly here unfortunately. — M.A.R. 8 secs ago
0 chars left. chef kiss
Should submit it to Mith's poetry contest as freeform style
 
9:11 PM
Too late, it ended ten minutes ago...
Oh wait, I guess you were within a minute when you posted that message.
 
@Mithical I was just throwing around ideas like in a meeting
Packs up and goes home
I WON'T FORGET THIS
 
 
1 hour later…
10:41 PM
Hey, folks. If you signed the open letter (or the lavender letter) that the mods wrote, thank you. It ended up with 855 signatures. I am of no doubt that it was a major factor in pointing out to SE just how badly they screwed up - it's one of if not the biggest concerted action that I've ever seen folks on SE take.
8
I just shut down the app that was running it for the last time. It's still up and will remain up for as long as that domain keeps working (and on my own site after that), but it's all static now. No more signatures.
 
 

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