Tavern on the Meta

SmokeDetector

00:13

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (81): What stat is used in the crafting room in fallout shelter by user4766244 on gaming.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Pattern-matching website in answer, potentially bad keyword in answer (81): How to attract vault members? by user4766244 on gaming.SE

user302202

00:47

Why is Joel constantly cited on Twitter as an authority on woodworking? twitter.com/…

user302202

Presumably by bots, but those are bots with 6-digit follower counts...

user302202

Please retweet.

SmokeDetector

01:00

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in body (64): Could this explain etiologies of neurodegenerative disorders? by And SoOn on psychology.SE

ɪBᴜɢ

01:17

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog The only one I found NSFW is this report, is it?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@ɪBᴜɢ and the watch requests

ɪBᴜɢ

oh, that "date local" domain itself

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Glorfindel Your broken image fixer done borked: meta.stackexchange.com/posts/13118/revisions

Rob

02:00

@SmokeDetector fp-

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

What a coincidental placement of messages in the star board tonight

Gaurang Tandon

@Glorfindel yeah, ok :)

SmokeDetector

02:19

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Misleading link (14): Edit Font Metadata so FontBook will put it in English smart collection? by hoodsmom on apple.SE

SmokeDetector

02:43

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in body (63): Could this be a key insight in understanding the etiologies of neurodegenerative disorders? by And SoOn on medicalsciences.SE

SmokeDetector

03:17

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer (86): Is there any tradition of writing Korean in a linear fashion, outside of syllable blocks? by Putri Ibrahim on korean.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad pattern in url answer (69): web3j-android error: static interface method calls are not supported at language level 1.7 by Philemon Khor on ethereum.SE

SmokeDetector

04:06

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer (53): What's the difference between a pigment and a dye? by DUOMIT on crafts.SE

user302202

0

A: Credit Cards Similar to Co-ops

adsense high Court Wednesday morning Saturday. Use lipstick stay the home ministry.

user302202

Roger that.

SmokeDetector

04:23

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer, potentially bad ns for domain in answer (61): Is there a way to download Android apps to my PC? by Ahad Khan on superuser.com

Journeyman Geek

Darn it. Our websites are not numbers stations

Rob

@JourneymanGeek I think I've seen some. Do you have a complaint that you want CHQ to investigate?

Journeyman Geek

@Rob was a response to what @Mrs.Robinson linked

Rob

@JourneymanGeek That seems one of a few possibilities. I flagged it NAA. If it's #'s they ought not to return in any event.

Gone.

The account too.

afk

Bookends

04:43

The question too.

The site too!

The netwo... disconnected from the server

-11

Q: Should Stack Exchange start using the Zero Clause BSD license for code snippets?

The Zero Clause BSD license was originally from Rob Landley's Toybox project and was added to choosealicense.com yesterday. It seems the ideal license for sharing code snippets given it drops the conditions of the MIT/ISC license: The BSD Zero Clause license goes further than the BSD 2-Clause...

yep, deja vu

Journeyman Geek

@Bookends sigh

Actually that is a perfect example of of why main meta is hard

It's a relatively new user who gets the mechanics but not the broader history of the site

Bookends

05:03

Still, I'd say that the OP used the tags correctly, but failed to (or didn't?) find the previous MIT License discussion... so, no research?

Journeyman Geek

Eh. It's not obvious unless you knew about it imo

I think the dvs are more due to the unpopularity of the other idea than lack of research

Bookends

Actually, I'm not focusing on the score... only the topic about changing license...

Including "License Free"

Journeyman Geek

Hmmm

I still think it's less than obvious to a less experienced user

Shree

05:23

cv-pls support off-topic Share Private Video of Youtube over API‭ - Raghu K‭ 2019-02-17 05:20:35Z

^ gone . Looks like self deletion.

Journeyman Geek

Nope

waves a comically large hammer

Shree

:)

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

06:10

@Shree Even as a <10k-er you should be able to tell whether the author deleted the post or not (unless the author's account is deleted).

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

06:36

!!/report meta.stackexchange.com/a/324060/377214

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer (94): 2 accepted answers by norhasiah ani on meta.SE (@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog @ShadowWizard)

Bookends

@SmokeDetector 2 duplicated pictures

Glorfindel

07:51

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog yeah, that's an interesting test case :) Thanks for notifying me.

SmokeDetector

08:42

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer (86): What's the easiest (and ideally safest) way to get from Dubai to Abu Dhabi? by Juma kituno on travel.SE

SmokeDetector

10:01

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer (60): What is the meaning of “In case the talents will be ignored, a person may take one step back and thus get a Karmic Debt.”? by Juma kituno on ell.SE

Mithrandir

...actual text message I just sent: "? "?""

Journeyman Geek

@Mithrandir !

Bookends

10:18

⁉

SmokeDetector

10:34

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user (69): If $m^2\cos{\frac{2\pi}{15}}\cos{\frac{4\pi}{15}}\cos{\frac{8\pi}{15}}\cos{\frac{14‌\pi}{15}} = n^2$, then find the value of $\frac{m^2 - n^2}{n^2}$ by Tsr on math.SE

Bookends

1

A: Finding the value of $x$ when $2^{\frac{1}{\cos^2(x)}}\sqrt{y^2 - y +\frac{1}{2}} \leq 1$

Greatnsjsjsuuuabxoaboxjbaojdboajbcojwn9jb oqboxjbojxbojnxjonajoxnoaj xo xojq zij ciqj cij1 aijx

1

A: If $\tan{\frac{x}{2}}=\csc x - \sin x$, then find the value of $\tan^2{\frac{x}{2}}$.

Hiahsijaidnaobdoqbsojcbo1jbojbojbojbwojbdojqbdoj1o oh 1con2odnfo2ebojboj oh oh oj ohnojnbpjbojbobobobojbjoboh oi i ih ih

!!/report math.stackexchange.com/a/3115056/174736 math.stackexchange.com/a/3115061/174736 math.stackexchange.com/a/3116082/174736 math.stackexchange.com/a/3116085/174736

SmokeDetector

Post 3: Already recently reported [ [MS](https://metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/160148) ]
Post 4: Already recently reported [ [MS](https://metasmoke.erwaysoftware.com/post/160149) ]

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user (69): Finding the value of $x$ when $2^{\frac{1}{\cos^2(x)}}\sqrt{y^2 - y +\frac{1}{2}} \leq 1$ by Tsr on math.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user (69): If $\tan{\frac{x}{2}}=\csc x - \sin x$, then find the value of $\tan^2{\frac{x}{2}}$. by Tsr on math.SE

Mithrandir

11:10

\o/

Journeyman Geek

Chhhhhhheeeessssuyyyyy

Bookends

SO 3D CG XD

(no, that's not actually a riddle...)

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir Finally!

Mithrandir

@Tinkeringbell Apparently I was one of the unlucky 5 who didn't get theirs sent out

Tinkeringbell

Well, glad to see it arrived this quick after figuring that out then :)

Mithrandir

11:25

:)

Asuna

11:46

@Bookends How did that get upvoted?

wait, that's edited

Bookends

12:05

AFAIR, it's not edited when I reported it (otherwise I'd comment and ask for rollback). Granted, the OP got "Peer Pressure" badge, meaning they self-deleted their posts after getting flagged.

So, either pocket posting (but why on multiple occasions?), friends playing joke (poor OP), or... sockpuppet (2 upvotes?), or else~

Rob

@Mithrandir It's difficult to find what kind of kitchen knife that is supposed to be. It looks a lot like a paint scrapper or putty knife.

Journeyman Geek

It's a cheese knife

Rob

Matching image link, please.

Tinkeringbell

12:23

> Flat cheese knives are very common, but not always obvious. You’ll want to use this knife to cut or divide soft cheese. You can also use this knife like you would a chisel and shave down on hard cheeses. Because the bottom edge of the knife has the sharp edge, the cutting motion will always be pressing down.

johneatscheese.com/blog/2016/05/31/cheese-knives/#knife-5

Bookends

One of these cheese planes

Rob

12:59

@Tinkeringbell A cheese knife for soft cheese has holes or slots and a cheese knife for hard cheese is thicker at the top to divide the cut pieces, source: my first link. A "flat cheese knife", or a trapezium knife is wider and thicker at the top so it won't flex whereas a putty knife is designed to flex. This is a trapezium:

@Bookends, a plane has a slot.

Tinkeringbell

@Rob There's a lot of disagreement on how to use cheese knives on the internet, it seems. The knife I got, unlike a trapezium isn't much thicker at the top. But it works fine for soft cheese (crumbly ones, or really young gouda, especially).

Rob

13:20

@Tinkeringbell I agree that there's a lot of disagreement, and there's no chosen answer to any relevant questions on Cooking.SE to assist us.

The proper manner in which to cut the cheese will remain a mystery for now.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/324066/…

Mithrandir

13:33

@Rob in the bathroom

Rob

13:44

Certainly not in the kitchen, with a putty scrapper.

Journeyman Geek

Or with a chainsaw

Tinkeringbell

I think the proper manner is to just cut it into bite-sized bits :)

Rob

Apparently the correct way is to: "Whiff it, Sniff it, Lay it, Rip it" (Link safe for 7-9 year olds).

Shadow Wizard

14:07

It started!

:D

Shadow Wizard

14:22

@Glorfindel please start a meta discussion before starting to burninate a tag, even if it seems obvious. We got complains about one-sided actions of this sort in the past, and I can see their point.

(and Shog had to spend time to write script that undid some retags)

daily tweet from @Mrs.Robinson in 3... 2... 1....

:P

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

40

Q: Why are tags on MSE being regularly removed/deprecated without discussion?

For a while now, on a daily basis, the front page of Meta.SE has been populated with old questions bumped because of retaggings -- mostly removals. Today ignore seems to be the target. As far as I know, burnination of tags should be well-motivated and accompanied by a Meta proposal to make sure ...

discussion tags meta tags-burnination

@Glorfindel ^^

user302202

@ShadowWizard Sure thing

user302202

Do you know #StackOverflow uses Proof-Of-Stats for review queue? that's bit similar to Proof-Of-Stake of #blockchaintechnology 😄

Tweeted by dmdesai_ on February 17, 2019 at 5:17 AM

user302202

Let's fix SO close queue using blockchain!

Shadow Wizard

14:37

lol

user302202

I'm well aware of SE dba SO rebranding, but some pages are still confusing.

user302202

Is it "Stack Exchange network" or "Stack Overflow network"?

Shadow Wizard

Exchange

I think

user302202

ToS says "Stack Overflow network".

Shadow Wizard

oh

Guess both can be used, except in court

And no idea what's the legal name

user302202

14:39

Trademark guidance is "The Stack Exchange Network refers to the collection of Stack Exchange sites and services."

user302202

So, Terms of Service do not follow the Trademark Guidance.

Shadow Wizard

Yeah, it's a total mess. Doubt anyone really know the answer.

And they keep changing their legal/brand/whatever name, so even if one knows the answer, it's likely to change at some point.

user302202

Hm, that "contact us" link on stackoverflow.com/company/contact is kind of weird.

user302202

Why does that page grab the referring URL and make it an explicit URL parameter?

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard something maybe the new marketing folks could take a look at

user302202

14:48

(Trying to understand the report meta.stackexchange.com/questions/324071/wrong-contact-us-link)

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shadow @Mrs.Robinson The official name is indeed "Stack Exchange network"; that it may say "Stack Overflow network" in some places is a bug.

9

A: Is it the "Stack Exchange Network" or the "Stack Overflow Network"?

It's definitely the "Stack Exchange Network". What can sometimes get confusing is that the brand name for the entity that runs said network is "Stack Overflow", not "Stack Exchange". So, sometimes you will see someone say "Stack Overflow" when talking about the company and not the literal site s...

Shadow Wizard

@Mrs.Robinson so they know where people came from, it's good

user302202

Not necessarily good for me.

Shadow Wizard

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog nah, it might still be wrong.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

It's a bad use of find-and-replace

Shadow Wizard

14:50

Maybe only professional lawyer can give real answer what's the actual and real name.

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog I don't think it's a bug.

Since nobody knows what the real name is, different developers put different names.

@Mrs.Robinson why? If you don't want them to "track" you, install userscript that removes query string data, but you'll also bump into tons of bugs as result.

(like the one posted now on MSE, I bet due to exactly such a userscript.)

user302202

From icis.corp.delaware.gov/Ecorp/EntitySearch/NameSearch.aspx which confusingly marks both search fields as required when only one is.

user302202

Although that does not answer the question about "Stack * Network" which is a term of their own making.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

0

Q: Terms of Service begins with "Stack Overflow Network" instead of Stack Exchange Network

According to the Trademark Guidelines, the name of the network of Q&A sites is the "Stack Exchange Network". Yet the Terms of Service begins with the word "Stack Overflow Network": There was a prior bug filed where the cookie warning mentioned "Stack Overflow Network", and the official res...

bug legal terms-of-service trademark

Asuna

I honestly wondered about that when the ToS was released xd

user302202

15:01

@Mrs.Robinson Dear State of Delaware: "4/6/2010" is not "mm/dd/yyyy"

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Mrs.Robinson Related issue from the past:

11

Q: "Stack Exchange Internet Services Inc." or "Stack Exchange Inc."?

The Careers TOS says Stack Exchange Internet Services Inc., isn't the official name of the company Stack Exchange Inc.? This all comes from comments here

discussion status-completed stackexchange

Shadow Wizard

@Mrs.Robinson why not? It's April 6th for MM/dd/yyyy format, or June 4th in case it's dd/MM/yyyy format. It's valid in both.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Mrs.Robinson You also made me curious about something:

0

Q: Why is Stack Exchange, Inc. registered in Delaware?

As far as I'm aware, Stack Exchange's headquarters are in New York, NY. There are other offices, such as one in San Francisco, CA and one in London, United Kingdom, among others. Yet the company is registered in the U.S. state of Delaware as a Delaware-based firm. The Terms of Service clearly po...

discussion company

Shadow Wizard

(and no way to tell which is should be.)

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

!!/report meta.stackexchange.com/q/324074/377214 meta.stackexchange.com/a/324075/377214 "spam seed and answer"

Shadow Wizard

15:11

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog hehe. Most likely lowest tax rate, or something like that, related to money.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@ShadowWizard AFAIK other states have lower tax rates, e.g. Nevada and Texas

Shadow Wizard

Many big companies just register themselves outside USA.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

Delaware seems like an odd choice.

@ShadowWizard It could register as a UK company since it has an office in London

Shadow Wizard

4

A: Does it matter if a company is incorporated in Delaware?

Google has the answer here. I just searched for 'Why do companies incorporate in Delaware" and scanned through the results. One good link is here: The Top 10 Reasons Companies Incorporate in Delaware There are many reasons why more companies are incorporated in Delaware than any other stat...

Maybe should add there "Even Stack Exchange itself is there"? ;)

!!/addblu meta.stackexchange.com/users/477750/ravi-sharma

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard User blacklisted (477750 on meta.stackexchange.com).

Shadow Wizard

15:14

spammer ^

Asuna

@ShadowWizard they're deleted though

Shadow Wizard

oh. R.I.P

lol

Asuna

> Page not found

Tinkeringbell

Sorry!

Shadow Wizard

Yeah mod nuked seconds after I added to black list lol

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

15:15

@Tinkeringbell Were you the mod who deleted it?

Shadow Wizard

@Tinkeringbell all good, better off without the spammer. :)

Asuna

@Tinkeringbell How DARE you ruin a blacklist addition?! :p

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

It was at -5 so a mod had to have spam-deleted it

Tinkeringbell

@Asuna Hey, I gotta have some fun with my mod powers! ;)

Shadow Wizard

Read deleted comments in the formatting sandbox then.... :D

Asuna

15:18

I hope there are no mods around... :p

Bookends

looks like a rhythm game...

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/324077/help-with-java-code

Shadow Wizard

@Asuna hmm... wonder what Derpy would think about it.... :D

Glorfindel

@ShadowWizard @SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog OK, I somehow managed to miss that discussion.

Journeyman Geek

@Asuna how uncouth.

SmokeDetector

15:22

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in answer, email in answer (160): What should be done when a passport wasn't stamped on arrival in the US? by Rita Ortega on travel.SE

Bookends

@ShadowWizard I don't think Derpy will say uncouth on ponies...

Shadow Wizard

@Bookends umm... actually the contrary, he's much more sensitive to stuff related to ponies.

so even the most tiny thing can be uncouth, by his view.

Bookends

but <redacted>

Shadow Wizard

shh don't tell!

Journeyman Geek

Ahhhhh naked ponies. Oh the equinemanity....

Shadow Wizard

15:24

40

Q: Why are tags on MSE being regularly removed/deprecated without discussion?

For a while now, on a daily basis, the front page of Meta.SE has been populated with old questions bumped because of retaggings -- mostly removals. Today ignore seems to be the target. As far as I know, burnination of tags should be well-motivated and accompanied by a Meta proposal to make sure ...

discussion tags meta tags-burnination

Happy reading! :)

Asuna

@JourneymanGeek Oh no, a mod!!!! hides

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@ShadowWizard I already linked that earlier

Asuna

@Bookends so?

It's not NSFW

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

That's the "discussion" he's referring to.

Bookends

@Asuna we need to know the real threshold of Derpy's level of uncouthness :/

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

15:27

I'm a naked hedgehog, as is Shadow

Asuna

@Bookends I do

Bookends

We don't :)

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

(that should summon them over)

Asuna

@Bookends meh

Shadow Wizard

@Bookends anything that isn't fitting for 3 years old kid to watch.

(or hear.)

Well, in kids TV shows animals are naked as they are in nature, problem starts when they also do human actions/positions they don't do in nature, and it can be a thin line. :)

Anyway... better change subject! :D

!!/coffee everyone

SmokeDetector

15:36

@ShadowWizard brews a cup of Ristretto for @everyone

Shadow Wizard

!!/Ristretto

SmokeDetector

@ShadowWizard No such command 'ristretto'.

Shadow Wizard

buh

@Stijn hey! What's up? :D

Your site is down.... :(

Stijn

16:07

@ShadowWizard hey

yeah I'm dealing with some bank and credit card changes

took down the azure subscription it was on and still gotta set up a new one

but the site didn't have much purpose so it might take some time :P

Shadow Wizard

@Stijn oh... hope good changes?

You still own the company?

Or did you move to a new job in the meanwhile?

Stijn

i still own the company

but switched from sole-trader to limited liability a while ago

better for taxes

though i didn't end up doing what i planned to do

still in the consulting business, just as a freelancer now

Shadow Wizard

@Stijn move to Delaware ;)

@Stijn so, freelancer with a company?

Stijn

yeah more freedom in choosing the right project, instead of a boss telling me where to go

user302202

@ShadowWizard 04/06/2010 would be mm/dd/yyyy

Shadow Wizard

16:14

@Mrs.Robinson where? Why? For me 04/06/2010 is June 4th, 2010.

Stijn

initial plan was to find small companies and do tailor-made software, but i lack the soft skills for it :P

Shadow Wizard

That's just how we parse dates in Israel.

So you can't decide for everyone, globally.

user302202

The point is mm is two digits.

Shadow Wizard

Unless I miss something here?

@Mrs.Robinson so?

user302202

Nevermind, it wasn't interesting to begin with.

user302202

16:18

"Every day that we spent not improving our products was a wasted day." - Joel Spolsky, Stack Overflow Co-Founder

Tweeted by vanetworking on February 17, 2019 at 4:00 PM

user302202

Where did I hear this one before...

user302202

Shog9

@ShadowWizard 04/06/2010 is just as ambiguous (or non-ambiguous, if clear expectations are set) as 4/6/2010. However, a naive validation system, given the pattern mm/dd/yyyy will reject 4/6/2010 as invalid input while accepting 04/06/2010.

IOW, when using /\d\d\/\d\d\/\d\d\d\d/ your second problem is irate users who typed out the date you rendered instead of the date you requested.

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 but it will also reject 6/4/2010 that's my point, i.e. can't know the actual format intended.

@Stijn wait, as company owner, who was your boss??

Shog9

@ShadowWizard sure you can. Just tell the user which order you expect, and then communicate back which format you understood.

2 days ago, by Shog9

Heck, it might be totally ok if you're allowing folks to enter dates interactively - as long as you provide solid feedback as to which date they've actually selected, reasonable constraints as to which dates can be selected, etc.

Shadow Wizard

16:27

@Shog9 but if the user makes mistake, it's impossible to tell.

People don't read, it's rule #0

:)

Shog9

that's always true

that's why you show the date you understood to the user

Shadow Wizard

Also, the <input type="date" /> use the system settings

And each user might have different settings.

Stijn

@ShadowWizard let me try again :P I was a consultant for about 4 years as a regular employee in a consulting company. I left and started my own company to do tailor-made software, but ended up continuing consultancy work on my own.

Shadow Wizard

@Stijn oh lol

Shog9

@ShadowWizard even that is a problem if you interpret the date in some weird way

Though likely irrelevant here, as I doubt the page Mrs.R referenced was using type=date

Naive input forms try to reduce mistakes by constraining inputs in some way. The idea being, if you disallow invalid inputs then no one will make mistakes! But... If you knew which input was valid, you wouldn't need to ask at all; so all fields must by definition allow some invalid inputs, disallowing only those which are obviously wrong.

So now you have the problem of potentially disallowing valid inputs that are expressed in a slightly different way from what you expect, while still allowing invalid inputs in the correct format.

The "date picker" solution tries to avoid this by providing interactive feedback: a visual aid to selection updates as you type or navigate through dates.

Alternate solutions simply render the input in a normalized fashion (either as you type or after you've confirmed that you're done)

Bookends

17:12

Solution: write the month name instead of number

Rob

17:36

Butt will it!

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in body (63): Could this be a key insight in understanding the etiologies of neurodegenerative disorders? by And SoOn on psychology.SE

Bookends

Will won't, but Won't will

SmokeDetector

17:58

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer (92): New Samsung Washer Smells by Hill Sarah on diy.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Mostly non-latin answer (50): What is Var(X - Y)? by user645681 on math.SE

Bookends

@SmokeDetector wtf all unicodes

SmokeDetector

@Bookends Mostly non-latin answer - Text contains 136 non-Latin characters out of 138

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Username similar to website in answer (53): OpenVPN GUI client for UDP/TCP by movcmpret on askubuntu.com

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

19:07

@MonicaCellio I noticed you declined my flag on this question requesting to add a status tag based on the premise that "an off-hand chat message from an employee isn't persuasive enough". However, if you noticed, the same employee happened to close a 4-year-older question asking the exact same thing as a duplicate of that question. Is it not persuasive enough still, or is it persuasive now?

ArtOfCode

19:17

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog Why not (a) edit a link to that older post into your answer; (b) re-flag and explain that's what you've done?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@ArtOfCode If that duplicate closure does not sufficiently add to the persuasiveness in her eyes, I don't want to risk another declined flag.

ArtOfCode

also, how do you know it was Monica?

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog Declined flags don't hurt that much.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@ArtOfCode A bunch of flags were handled at the same time. One of them was marked helpful and the requested modification was done by Monica. (If it wasn't her, any other mod want to claim it?)

@ArtOfCode I did the calculation and it seems like I may be at the cusp of a flag ban. Especially when the system is set up to regard only the handling time with no regard to the flagging time, it's possible for a bunch of flags from the past to be declined resulting in an immediate ban without any sort of warning. (This happened with me once, so I don't want it to happen again.)

It also means that one can get re-banned for casting a helpful flag.

ArtOfCode

In that case, you need to reconsider what you're flagging.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@ArtOfCode That's exactly what I'm doing.

Monica Cellio

19:35

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog the same employee reopened the current question a few months ago. If he thought it called for a status tag, presumably he would have added it. You are asking us to make inferences based on employees' behavior; that's not how status tags work. We have hundreds or thousands of pending bug reports and feature requests that might have been fixed (or rejected) at some point along the way; when we know we should tag them, but leaving a few alone because we're not sure is not hurting.

Also, do be careful of what you assert. You assumed it was me but you did not know that, and only backed down when somebody called you on it. Can you see how that calls into question other assertions you make, like "this is status-whatever"?

Shog9

19:50

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog recalculate: meta.stackexchange.com/users/flag-summary/…

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Didn't say that I am; just that I could be.

Shog9

strictly-speaking, you didn't say either

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

There's no way to sort flags by handling time so it's not easy to calculate that.

Shog9

there is, however, a way to filter flags by handling time, which I just demonstrated

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 That only includes declined flags. It gives you no info on those in proportion to your overall flag history.

Shog9

19:53

thank you shog, I wasn't aware of that hidden filter which allows me to quickly review recently-declined flags. I no longer need to be paranoid about bans, and can now focus on reasons for declines and thereby improve my ability to communicate effectively with the moderator team

4

gonna pretend I read that

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 I knew that that existed. I know that I have two recently declined flags. But I don't know how many helpful flags I have during that time.

It could be 2 declined, 6- helpful, or 2 declined, 7 helpful; if the latter, a single declined flag later would result in a ban.

Shog9

because it doesn't matter. As I've told you before, the goal shouldn't be to get 24% of your flags declined, thus narrowly avoiding the ban.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 But it is helpful in one case: if you recently came off a flag ban, it's possible to get re-banned for having a flag dismissed as helpful.

Shog9

nope

you're still banned because you had more flags declined more recently

You've had two flags declined. You can view the reasons for why they were declined. You can adjust your flagging accordingly. Or you can sit on your hands and wait until you fall below the threshold for bans, continue to ignore the warnings, and continue to waste both your own time and the time of the moderators handling your flags.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

Imagine you had one helpful flag dismissed a little less than one week ago, then six more over the course of the week. Additionally, you have three declined flags over the course of the week. You're thus banned since it's > 25%. Then, that first helpful flag's handling time becomes more than one week ago; you're thus unbanned since your handled flags in the past week is < 10. In that case, if you cast a helpful flag, it will be pushed above 10 and you get re-banned.

Shog9

19:59

yes, I'm very familiar with the mechanics of the ban

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

6

A: Immediately rebanned after flag ban was lifted; should I wait to flag again?

Ah, yes, the flag ban formula is subject to a lot of unfortunate edge cases. Basically, it considers the handling time of your flags, rather than the time you flagged. All post flags that were handled within the last seven days are considered for a potential ban. That's not ideal to a user who ...

@Shog9 So then why did you say "nope"?

Shog9

because you're still wrong

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Okay, it is designed to work like that; you and I both know it. So why is it by design to penalize a user who learns from their declined flags and then casts a flag that gets marked helpful, in this case?

Shog9

If I were to re-do the logic for this ban, I would probably make it work more like edit bans: you hit the threshold, you're banned for a solid week regardless of the timing. However, the current system is considerably more generous, as it allows a significant number of helpful flags to shorten the ban, thus resulting in something more akin to a rate-limit.

You have two declined flags over the past week. The current system allows you to use this knowledge to not be banned at all, or to ensure that if you do encounter a ban it is short or interrupted. You're familiar enough with the mechanics to know this, and even to know how to easily avoid any problems.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Yeah, that'd fix it. Last question: why is there absolutely no regard for the flagging time? If some of my flags from months or years past get declined, why should that penalize me in the present day if the flags I cast today are mostly helpful?

Shog9

20:04

because the purpose of the ban is to preserve moderator time

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 In any case, I feel I did the right thing here by not re-flagging it. Your dupe closure wasn't persuasive enough; good thing I didn't reflag and have that one declined.

Shog9

Now, I'll do you one better: there's almost never a good reason to flag for any status tag other than "status-completed".

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user (69): What is migration and how does it work? by Julian Tiemann on meta.SE (@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog @ShadowWizard)

Shog9

If you encounter a bug that you can demonstrate is fixed, or a feature that you can show was implemented, adding that tag is useful to others.

Declined may be applied with confidence in a situation where a request has been explicitly, unequivocally declined many times over... Let's say, "require comments when downvoting"... But honestly, that's either a duplicate or better served by an answer reiterating the reason(s) why it's a bad idea.

rene

→ 1 message moved to Trashcan

Shog9

20:08

Everything else is essentially there as a public signal of internal bookkeeping, which is already enough of a mess. Best leave 'em off.

rene

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog let's not disqualify users any further here in this room, flagging is enough.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@rene If I had commented directly on the metasmoke page rather than proxy-commenting on it here, would that have been OK?

Shog9

Now, with this in mind you should be well equipped to avoid further flags declined in the nature of the one you just saw. Whether you make use of that knowledge is up to you.

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Okay, I have a direct question related to that. One of those two declined flags was a request to add a status-completed tag to a request. In the flag, I linked to proof that the request had indeed been completed (a non-mod staff member added a status tag to a question without having to suggest it). But it was still declined, with the canned reason of "no evidence".

rene

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog yes, that would have been awesome, thanks

Shog9

20:11

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog you have an observation

That is, you think you saw a staff member making an edit that you think was prohibited before.

perhaps you're right, and the prohibition was lifted

or perhaps you observed another bug

how might you demonstrate that it is the former and not the latter...?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 You're right; my reasoning at the time was that "regardless of whether it was intentionally fixed or caused by another bug, my request was satisfied". But I realize that that reasoning is incorrect.

But which one is it?

Shog9

that's irrelevant right now

do you recognize that you flagged without compelling evidence?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Yes, I do. My request was to allow for all binding edits, not just tag-only edits; if I had more diffs where they were able to make non-tag-only edits bindingly, it would have been more compelling.

Shog9

can you think of anything else you might've done - say, with the same question - that might've been more useful to others, or perhaps even resulted in the sort of compelling evidence that would have justified a status-completed tag?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

Maybe the old "retag" privilege was reinstated for staff members

@Shog9 Asked some non-mod staff members to try making some edits to see if they'd be suggested edits or not?

Shog9

20:18

that sounds like more work for other people

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 I don't have staff rights, neither am I a low-rep user; I can't test it out myself.

The other possible thing to do would be to try and get someone to look into the code to see what rights staff members have

Shog9

what's your goal here?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

To check if the request was indeed completed, since I saw an example edit where a staff member made a binding tag-only edit (whereas at the time I asked the question they had to suggest them)

Shog9

why?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Read after "since"

Shog9

20:23

why?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

It may have been completed. It may have just been giving them the retag privilege. It may have been the system glitching up and giving them access. It may have been that they exploited a privilege escalation bug. I'm curious to know which one is the case.

Shog9

so, if satiation is your goal, how might you satisfy this curiosity?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

If it is the first choice of the above, then my request should be marked completed.

@Shog9 I don't know how. But I do know it's weird to ask a support question asking "was this request I filed earlier implemented?".

Shog9

so don't do that then

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

So then what should I do?

Shog9

20:26

what can you do?

what have you already done, successfully, to partially sate your curiosity in this particular case?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Option 1: ping you or another staff member asking if it was completed. Option 2: assume it was completed and flag it asking for a status tag, hoping the flag gets handled by an employee who will check appropriately. Option 3: get ahold of some non-mod staff members and have them test it out to see if it's completed. Any more options?

Shog9

yep

you're looking for ways to get more data

but; have you examined all the data already available to you?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 Option 4: Have someone write me an SEDE query to find binding edits made by non-mod staff members?

Shog9

why can't you write the query yourself?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

@Shog9 I'm not that familiar with SEDE, and from what I can tell it considers edits as edits, with it being difficult to see if an edit was binding or suggested. But okay, let's say I write it myself. So if the query results say that it's indeed completed, is that "compelling evidence" for a flag to ask for a completed tag?

And if the query results say it's not completed, what should I do to see how that binding edit was possible in that case?

Shog9

20:33

Here is a tutorial for you: data.stackexchange.com/tutorial

Distinguishing suggested edits from unilateral edits is a good exercise

@SonictheIntrovertedHedgehog does the evidence in this hypothetical situation satisfy your curiosity?

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

Well, yes it does.

Shog9

then you've no need to do anything else; your goal is accomplished

Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog

2 mins ago, by Sonic the Introverted Hedgehog