Tavern on the Meta

Journeyman Geek

16:00

But well, the status quo was shaken - and the result... unpredictable?

user194636

@canon does sound nice

mag

@Aza seen something like this before

Journeyman Geek

@Raedwald All comments must die ._.

mag

no clue how to deal with any of it

user194636

@rene but but oh well

terdon

16:00

@YvetteColomb Yes, absolutely. They have every right to do as they please and we even signed a mod agreement enshrining that right. But just don't sell this process as fair or impartial. Come out and say: "we get to decide if we reinstate you and you have no way of defending yourself or even knowing if the 'process' was followed".

user206222

@Raedwald oh my god yeah no it's exactly that

Rubiksmoose

@YvetteColomb There are better ones but:

Meta Stack Exchange Chat is over there if you wanna chat @ModusTollens. There are already too many discussions for me to watch carefully; expect comment threads to be short-lived for the near future. Answers, as always, are a good choice if you want something to last. — Shog9 ♦ Oct 13 at 16:57

user310756

@JourneymanGeek I suspect the mse flag queue is like the SO flag queue atm - in which case you have no idea. It's stressful. Only someone with a diamond on here can verify how many flags there are @Shog9 ? details?

Mgetz

@JourneymanGeek incoming flamethrower meme

canon

@AGirlHasNoName My trust has waned considerably over the last two years. I don't know that I deserve a tinfoil dunce cap for that.

Journeyman Geek

16:01

@mag ooh, its dealable.

user194636

@Rubiksmoose unless you answer FAQ 1.0

TheCog

I think this is a situation where assuming best faith is important. Sure our trust in corporate SE might be broken, but generally moderators and people doing comment cleanups are trying their best to keep things together

2

Journeyman Geek

But I don't think anyone's ready to make a push for it.

Mgetz

@canon no but they are stylish and on sale right now

user310756

@terdon yeh, but it's a business and the bottom line is - businesses are self interested/ I believe in the Cm team Not the business It died and changed a while back and I reconciled that with myself. That's why I'm more accepting of the dictates of the site. As they own the site and I choose my battles if that makes sense. It doens't mean people have to like it or even stay. I'm not saying that

Kevin B

16:02

I'm all for assuming good faith, but there has to be a point where you have to stop yourself from constantly getting walked all over.

rene

@YvetteColomb do know we kind of try to refrain from pinging staff here, fro\m this room.

user310756

@rene I had no idea, sorry

mag

@Aza seems like we're all cursed to watch it unfold, eh?

user206222

Y'all wonder how people get pulled into the alt-right, and it may seem mild, but this is it. MSE is quickly turning into a proving ground for extreme beliefs. It's very easy to believe that's not hanging out just around the corner, but it definitely is.

Raedwald

yesterday, by Raedwald

Yes, if I were SE, I'd seriously consider shutting down the meta sites. And chat.

Journeyman Geek

16:03

sigh

rene

@YvetteColomb yeah, I make up those rules along the way ;)

Kevin B

Lol, if you think i'm alt right (or right at all) you're wrong

user310756

@Raedwald me too

user310756

@rene nahm that's cool. I didn't even think about it. Old habits

Journeyman Geek

@Raedwald that would hurt folks who actually care about the network

user194636

16:04

@Aza extreme beliefs of all types

user310756

@KevinB I don't think she's pointing the finger - it's a trend

Raedwald

@JourneymanGeek Its the nuclear option.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza but literally - this was kinda the exact opposite of what all this was supposed to do

terdon

@YvetteColomb I believe in this CM team. I don't know who the future will bring. I guess my point is that SE is (presumably) trying to rebuild trust, so giving us a process that relies on blindly trusting the company is pointless. Either give a process that has some sort of external oversight or just tell us to shove it.

user206222

@194636 No.

Journeyman Geek

16:04

@Raedwald I'd probably lose most of the interest I had in the network

user194636

@Aza Yep

Mgetz

@Aza There is a term called "whisper circles" used to describe it, where people become radicalized due to seeing an overwhelming acceptance of an idea around them.

mag

@Aza you know, I had a retort forming in my head but considering even with my small exposure what I've seen in the past 3 weeks

Journeyman Geek

@Aza I'd almost argue its also the idea that... well specific individuals being unable to see they're wrong

mag

you might not be wrong

Journeyman Geek

16:05

and good people get tired faster than bad people.

user310756

@terdon I will never trust the company. I only hang around because of the cm team and the community. The reason I've been going out on a limb is I feel so sorry for the cm team. They're the ham in the sandwich and the ceo isn't taking any heat

user310756

don't get me started on big business

user384163

@194636 Wanting to be spoken to with respect being characterized as an extreme belief is why trans folks don't feel safe

user194636

The CM team are good people

user206222

It can always be interpreted as something else. That's... by design. Doesn't stop it from being real.

user194636

16:06

@AGirlHasNoName Not by me. And I resent the association.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza I mean, what's left to fight for? What's the chances of actually winning against the tide of these things.

Kevin B

@AGirlHasNoName I agree... and i'm adamantly against fighting that by doing the same.

Journeyman Geek

I mean its all good and well to talk about shaking up the status quo

user206222

I doubt CMs were expecting to have to defend the community from people who seek to slap a wedge between Us, The Neutral Apolitical and Them, The Aggressive Political.

user310756

@194636 they really are. It makes me sad to see some of the things that are written and accusations. I believe they're doing their best and nothing has been done with intentional malice since this has blown up. (I'm avoiding the whole dismissal issue)

user384163

16:06

@194636 your comment did exactly that

user194636

@AGirlHasNoName Nope.

canon

Hey, is there a roadmap for current/future public Q&A development?

Journeyman Geek

but at this point, there's no great way to deal with the political fallout short of either someone stepping up and doing something big or waiting for stuff to quieten down and getting back to work.

Kevin B

There are better ways of handling this than calling people who disagree extremists or alt right.

6

Mgetz

also holy moly this conversation got hard to follow

user206222

16:07

@JourneymanGeek Low. But possible, if enough people with power here are inoculated.

user194636

@YvetteColomb I guess it's tough for people that don't have an inside track.

rene

@YvetteColomb Ham and Eggs?

terdon

@AGirlHasNoName The thing is, that is a bit of a simplification. That is clearly what the trans folks want, but at the moment, unlike for cis folks, there isn't one, single, globally accepted way of showing respect to trans folks. Therefore, trans folks need to not only ask for respect but also indicate how that respect should be expressed. This is a small but significant detail. It doesn't alter the main point: everyone should be treated with respect, but it does make the request more complicated.

Journeyman Geek

@Aza tbh, at this point, basically I don't even see folks listening.

It was managable at first

but its kept steamrolling and out of control. Power... might not be enough

Mgetz

@194636 reminder that just because you don't think it did doesn't mean the other party sees it that way. I'd suggest taking it as feedback that maybe you didn't convey your meaning as you intended.

user194636

16:08

@Mgetz I know exactly what I said and what I meant. If other people choose to misinterpret, that's on them. I don't have time for games.

user194636

Well I have time, just no patience.

user310756

@194636 ofc! and that is hard/ I'm really lucky and so are the other SO mods - we had so much access to the CMs in our chat room. There was always someone in there chatting (time zones permitting) and we had access to a LOT of staff in there and were informed of things. That is why as soon as I got info that I was allowed to publish I would post on MSO. Which is why I'm particularly hurt about my reception lately. I always tried to do right by people.

mag

we all need to decouple intent from effect a little

user310756

@rene oh yeh, who has skin in the game.

user194636

@YvetteColomb Yes one of the sad things about this is the CMs are around less to chat in TL.

Mgetz

16:09

@194636 Then don't expect people to have constructive conversations with you if you're not willing to try to understand their position.

Journeyman Geek

@YvetteColomb folks might have the best intentions but sometimes the effects...

@194636 that's been a longer term thing though

user194636

@Mgetz People keep pinging me unconstructively when I have not spoken to them. They're going on ignore if they keep it up.

user310756

@194636 I can understand why they are avoiding meta and chat. They're human beings and they're hysterically busy. I have been fortunate to be in email contact with some of them over this time and I always feel guilty of taking their time

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Yeah little bit I guess.

Journeyman Geek

Mostly!

mag

16:10

imagine being a CM right now

user310756

@JourneymanGeek ofc! Look at mse! it's a disaster :\

user206222

@JourneymanGeek You're not supposed to, they're not supposed to. A lot of dialogue right now is predicated on the idea that We have already been estranged from Them. By design. No community dialogue approach is going to solve this. Any effort is doomed to fail until moderation is clamped down on moderation like a vice, but Stack systems may not have the pull to do it.

mag

everywhere you go, this crap follows you

it's not even your fault

Journeyman Geek

erf

I disagree

user194636

@YvetteColomb I know! And they're working so hard to meet these deadlines.

user310756

16:11

@mag I hope we don't lose any of them/ I worry about Tim, he's in remission from cancer

user206222

Like, heavy moderation is not The Answer, but it's a key part of every answer.

user194636

Arbitrary as they might be.

mag

"hey see about this closing experiment we did that I worked hard on for weeks" "yes but what about pronouns"

canon

@YvetteColomb real cancer or meta?

Journeyman Geek

@Aza "Like a vice" - no

user310756

16:11

@194636 and they're chasing up a bad debt with the community

Journeyman Geek

I'm a extremely strong believer in the other school of community engagement

user310756

@canon he had brain cancer - it started in his lungs - we're lucky to have him. I get really upset when people pile on him

mag

about the time I'd start chucking a PC out the window

Journeyman Geek

Clamping down is what got us into this mess.

user194636

@YvetteColomb There are signs that things are coming together a little, which is encouraging.

user310756

16:12

@JourneymanGeek ?

canon

@YvetteColomb Just out of curiosity, was that public knowledge? Because it is now...

Journeyman Geek

@YvetteColomb eep. Was a continuing coversation with @Aza

user310756

@194636 hope so. I know I have a club footed way of going about things, but I have sincerely trying to help

Journeyman Geek

@canon via twitter

user310756

@canon ofc! I wouldn't dare say it otherwise

canon

16:13

@JourneymanGeek ah. :(

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Yes a heavy-handed decree. Often not the best approach to take with people

canon

@YvetteColomb good good. :)

user58

He's also talked about it here on MSE some.

user310756

@canon it's desperately sad. I want people to be nice to him lol.. silly hey

Journeyman Geek

@194636 some people can get away with it

but that needs a deep level of trust

user310756

16:14

I know how much Shog loves the site and how hard he gone into bat for everyone.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Mentioning no shogs?

Journeyman Geek

But those folks kinda "own" the crowd

@194636 was thinking me actually :D

user310756

I guess in the FBM (the SO mod chatroom) we were lucky and got to see another side of the CMs. They were more open

Rubiksmoose

@194636 That's a separate issue though. And also irrelevant because all the comments on that answer were also deleted.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Oh yeah you're so fierce and heavy-handed LOL

Journeyman Geek

16:15

@194636 I have the trust of a good chunk of the community

user310756

and I know Tim quite well from over the years. So I know how good they are. I've also gotten to know Catija quite well over email.

Journeyman Geek

and the idea of losing that is scary.

Raedwald

8 hours ago, by Raedwald

I note that CMs, who I assume, are in the US, have been responding to questions and comments on the new FAQ as recently as 3 hours ago, when it was very late in their time-zone. They deserve our thanks for going above-and-beyond, in an effort to engage with the community.

user194636

@Rubiksmoose Yeah just thought it was an amusing thing to say.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Not me. You seem real shifty.

user310756

16:15

@JourneymanGeek that's what's happening a bit and it's terrifying

user310756

let me get something

mag

shiftyman geek

user206222

@JourneymanGeek Ultimately this is a colonization issue, not a moderation one. People are trying to artificially move new beliefs into the site under the guise of being "apolitical," and a lot of people believe it. Those who try to colonize (literally or metaphorically) aren't... typically interested in discussing it and need to be quickly expunged. Those who are going along with being colonized, find some relief in feeling it... need empathy.

Journeyman Geek

@YvetteColomb its a process over years

@Aza I think you miss the idea that - well there was an opening for it

and it is a moderation/community issue

else it would be easy. Just get rid of everyone we don't like, and keep going at it?

Mgetz

I try to have a constructive conversation, and the person threatens to ignore me because they didn't start it /sigh

why do I waste my time

user206222

16:17

@JourneymanGeek I don't think there ever was. Radicalization process kicks in the moment a wedge issue is brought into the focus.

user310756

@Raedwald agree. I've observed your comments in here :)

user206222

And it's certainly not about kicking out everyone you don't like

user194636

@JourneymanGeek The real question is what approach SE are going to take. We can have as good a relationship with the CMs and our communities as well like, but an unhelpful SE could still get right in the way.

Journeyman Geek

@194636 Se needs an actual idea of stratergy and what worked before.

user194636

@Mgetz Chat's a waste of time. Don't take it personally.

user310756

16:17

@Aza education is the best thing - or enlightenment - I don't mean that in an airy fairy astral projection way either :D

canon

I'm still sort of surprised we made this any more complicated than, "Just use they/their everywhere, consistently." No special treatment. No celebration nor decrying of gender. Consistent. I wonder how well such a simple directive would have carried. *shrug*

terdon

@Aza The problem is that both sides feel this describes their situation. I may have an opinion on which side is right, but there are two groups of people who feel that others are trying to ram beliefs down their throats.

Journeyman Geek

@canon specific situations where that won't work.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek What bugs me is they know what works. They've even done stuff that works recently!

Journeyman Geek

@194636 some people do

user194636

16:19

@JourneymanGeek The CMs do.

user310756

One thing people forget - it's a site based in the US and it's forced to conform to the social /business expectations of the US. So the trans gender issue is in the fore front there. We (Australia) follow the US - so I'm accustomed to it. I don't know how the rest of the world is on this issue. I'm asking

Journeyman Geek

@194636 SO... the CM team is a really good core of folks

user194636

@YvetteColomb I'm pretty sure you follow NZ actually

Journeyman Geek

but its a core. There's no meat on it

user310756

@194636 lol yes, the ultimate time travelers

canon

16:20

@YvetteColomb is it in poor taste to ask if you've ever eaten kangaroo?

user206222

Gotta go, but I'm gonna link this because it accurately describes what's happening in an uncanny way. I get that it's long, just... trust me. See it through. youtu.be/P55t6eryY3g

2

Journeyman Geek

sigh I hate these conversations - I feel like I'm back seat driving.

terdon

@YvetteColomb This cultural disconnect is at the root of the issue. Someone on SE's side assumed that the values they hold are globally accepted. They aren't. In my personal opinion, they should be, but they aren't. So this is perceived as cultural hegemony which is never welcome.

user310756

we need to have a hug your CM day lmao next headlinge SE involved in scandal

user194636

flagged

user194636

16:21

(too soon?)

John Dvorak

Czech here. I believe the closest we got to encountering the topic (past LBT) was that one amateur singer who sported a beard and a dress during a public contest.

user310756

@terdon I'm no sure that they don't realise that it's not a global accept. I think the team is between a rock and a hard place

user58

My description of the video Aza just linked was "informative and horrifying". I also recommend watching it.

Journeyman Geek

@194636 so pretty much - we need 1) enough agency for them to handle it 2) for the CMs to be their own organisation within the company, not some floaty thing and community evangelism to be a growing part of the job role again.

user310756

@canon yes, it's delicious and high in protein. But I rarely eat meat and prefer not to for several reasons

user194636

16:22

@JourneymanGeek that would be nice

user194636

my cats are fond of kangaroo meat

user310756

oh my son's name is Gabe...

Journeyman Geek

There's some stuff I sadly don't see happening again - I don't think we'll get the same site-user to CM ratio, but more community evangelists would be nice.

user310756

we had a shocking expose of the horse racing industry this week... I no longer buy fresh pet meat

user310756

I mean meat for my pets

Journeyman Geek

16:23

And part of that is literally being seen and familar with folks. Something I think both Cesar and Cat have done really well ;)

user194636

@JourneymanGeek It's always a bit sad when the kids grow up

terdon

@YvetteColomb If they had, they would have tried to be less heavy handed about it. I get the distinct feeling that they assumed everyone else was as informed on these issues as they were. I've been getting an education these past few weeks. I had only a vague idea that non-binary folk existed until very recently and have still not met any in real life. And I've only met one trans (cis) person.

I needed (and welcomed) the education and I really doubt I was in any way an extreme example of ignorance.

user194636

The kids being SE here

Journeyman Geek

@YvetteColomb The clarification was necessary ;p

@194636 Se's currently in its terrible teens ;p

canon

@terdon remember the dustup over rainboverflow?

user194636

16:23

@JourneymanGeek Heh I like that analogy

user310756

@terdon No. Not necessarily - I think they are informed - I think it was probably too heavy handed yes, hind sight is great hey.. and the way a dismissal was handled is problematic - yes and that paved the way. It really didn't help

terdon

@canon Yeah. That was something I was far more familiar with, but it's a good example. There, I was on the well informed side but again, they assumed that everyone shared the same set of core values. This is incredibly short-sighted and frankly chauvinist.

user194636

@Mgetz Apologies for being blunt earlier. I was getting pinged left, right, and centre, and got mixed up with some screen names

terdon

@YvetteColomb Yes, they are informed. But the community is made up of several million users from all over the globe.

user310756

@terdon exactly

user310756

16:26

I think they're aware of it, but how to handle it and what's the driving force behind it? I don't know

user194636

@YvetteColomb You know what irks me? People from whatever direction saying the underlying issues are easy. If they were easy do they really think smart and conscientious people would be in such conflict over all this.

Mgetz

@194636 There is blunt... and then there was what that was. Which was not blunt, it was far far ruder.

terdon

Another important factor in this is that many countries have a broader resentment of what they perceive as US cultural imperialism and will frame this in those terms.

user194636

And I do not irl easily.

user194636

@Mgetz Right you are guvnor.

Journeyman Geek

16:26

@194636 they were not simple

its obvious they are not simple ;p

else we would have gotten crap sorted out already.

user310756

@194636 totally agree - which is why I'm not overly critical of how they've handled it. I don't know what the best way is tbh.. it's easy to be an armchair critic

user310756

@terdon ofc! I was anti US in my hay day lol

terdon

@JourneymanGeek And yet we have people saying that they are simple, and if you don't see that, then you're alt-right, or a bigot or whatever name you care to choose. And then the other side respons with snowflake and SJW and extreme left etc etc.

user310756

and I'm from one of their ally countries

user310756

people resented being dragged into the war - you're with us or against us

Journeyman Geek

16:28

@terdon yup

terdon

Hell, I'm anti US (politically) and I have a US passport! :)

user194636

@YvetteColomb I am convinced SE must take the heat out of this by taking it out of the public gaze. Try to find a way to sit down with M in private and talk things though.

4

user310756

wow - that's a powder keg

Journeyman Geek

ANd I think they're often short sighted.

David A

@terdon including half of the USA itself. Remember that Progressive Twitter is a heavily skewed sample.

Journeyman Geek

16:29

@194636 I'm pretty sure Jeff would have just asked for Monica's phone number and called her ;p

2

John Dvorak

@194636 better yet, write a contract saying that they apologize in public and she won't sue them in exchange.

user194636

@JourneymanGeek Well he did it with Evan

Journeyman Geek

He did that with one fairly famous user just to make sure if he was the real deal.

@194636 exactly ;p

user194636

@JohnDvorak That could be part of what comes out of it.

terdon

@DavidA Of course. Which is why I'm even more baffled at the way SE handled this. They seem to think the culture wars are over and one side won. This needs to be done in a way that convinces people to change their minds, and that cannot be forced.

user310756

16:29

@194636 she's been offered as far as I know. I don't think she has faith she will be reinstated, but I honestly have no idea if she will be or not. Not that I can speak for her. Only what I've gleaned from the comments. At some point there needs to come a point - "if" she's not welcome back - why would you want to come back

user310756

I'll tell you - I have applied for mod reinstatement and I have at least one person vocally tracking me and telling me he will do what he can to have me removed

user194636

@YvetteColomb My concern would be for a fair hearing. The official process is a little light on talky bits.

2

user310756

I don't know if they will reinstate me.

user194636

@YvetteColomb Yeah I saw that. People say all sorts of stupid things in comments.

terdon

I don't know why we're focusing on the reinstatement. At the very least, Monica would be a very polarizing individual and that can't be good for a mod. We should focus on SE making some sort of public statement to at least try and alleviate the harm they caused by the monumental blunder of talking to the press.

user58

16:31

@YvetteColomb I noticed. At this point I think it's reached the edge of harassment.

user310756

@194636 I can say with confidence - I think it will be fair, but I'm not sure the person will agree to the terms. And it's been the same issue all along.

user194636

@YvetteColomb I tend to assume both sides are reasonable. They have certainly given me that impression in the past. Reasonable people ought to be able to find a way forward. It might take a few more days.

user310756

@user58 I actually put in a detailed ticket with the site and emailed the team. I have a private chatroom with one of the CMs and detailed it there and took his advice. It's gone beyond and it's more virulent than you'd realise from first glance

user310756

@194636 the reinstatement process takes about two weeks

user194636

@YvetteColomb Yeah I mean to get to the point where a formal process can start

user310756

16:33

fwiw I emailed soneone and told her to reinstate Monica with whatever conditions it was they wanted her to undertake. I will have conditions also.

Journeyman Geek

@194636 I think a critical part of that is trust.

user310756

@194636 it won't if she will not apply for reinstatement - which is why I emailed Sara in desperation - for the sake of meta

terdon

@YvetteColomb Probably best to treat that name as if it were Voldemort. I would avoid mentioning it at all, it triggers people.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek which begs the question - if you can not trust at all, why would you want to come back?

user310756

@terdon oh ok..

Journeyman Geek

16:34

@YvetteColomb well - the community to an extent. And trust is a currency

it is gained and lost

John Dvorak

Just hypothetically, would a company be able to avoid legal repercussions of slander by throwing under the bus an employee that was made to make the slanderous statement?

David A

@terdon Monica as a real person or as a "symbol of the resistance"?

user194636

@YvetteColomb I understand. I think some things need to sort themselves out between the two parties before we will see any progress. Hope is cheap I know.

user310756

@JourneymanGeek oh ofc and that too

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak Probably not

user194636

16:35

Tom Riddle has certainly been treated badly. That will take a bit of getting past.

terdon

@DavidA As a real person. If she were to be reinstated as a mod, I don't think she would be perceived as impartial. She would be polarizing. So whether she deserved to be reinstated or not, I don't think she could be an effective mod at this point.

user310756

@194636 it seems to be a stalemate - she's been offered the chance for reinstatement and refuses to take it. She doesn't have to case build, they will put conditions on the moderation and she will either agree or not, like the rest of us

Journeyman Geek

@terdon and reinstatement isn't all or nothing.

John Dvorak

@terdon what if she agreed to mod under a pseudonym?

user58

At this point, I have to say, reinstating Monica is highly unlikely. The trust between them has been broken, torn down, burnt to ashes, and the earth razed and salted. I don't think it's possible at this point for them to come to an agreement.

user310756

16:36

@194636 if he has a nose I might be able to be more sympathetic, but please? no nose!

user194636

@YvetteColomb Stalemate occurs when no more moves are possible. We are not there yet.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak erm. Not really plausible

The visibility and reputation is kinda important

user194636

@YvetteColomb I'm just following @terdon's advice!

terdon

@JohnDvorak What would be the point? The community would either know who she is, so same difference, or not know, so nobody would be appeased.

John Dvorak

fair

user194636

16:36

But yeah the nose is an issue

user310756

@user58 which leaves us with.. where does meta go from there re her reinstatement - it's practically disabled the site (mse)

user194636

It's kinda therapeutic to talk about, but only SE and Tom can sort this out.

Kevin B

Given the current situation and the direction everything is going, i see no reason for meta se to exist

terdon

@YvetteColomb I honestly think that a public apology for pillorying her in the press is far more important than any reinstatement.

14

user310756

@194636 we must pick another name lol Tom with no nose is dreadful

user58

16:38

What terdon said.

Kevin B

tommy no nose? wasn't that a fallout 4 npc

user310756

@terdon yes - any wrongs need to be righted. I suspect - without knowing - that lawyers may not allow that

terdon

Even something as simple as "While we stand by our decision, we realize that our wording could be misinterpreted and want to clarify that we wish Monica no ill".

4

user194636

@YvetteColomb Well I await instructions from Mr Nodret

John Dvorak

Nasalless?

user310756

16:39

@KevinB 4 npc?

terdon

You know, something to stop her being harassed by bigots from all sides of the bigotry spectrum.

user194636

@JohnDvorak Is that parcel tongue?

David A

@terdon Personally, if Monica can agree to a fair hearing, she should. And she should settle for only getting back the diamond in certain sites for now.

user310756

@terdon yes! that is brilliant - someone pin that!

terdon

So that the first hit her next employer gets when searching her name isn't an article branding her as an extremist bigot.

user194636

16:40

@terdon You're hired!

terdon

@194636 lol

Kevin B

eh

user194636

@DavidA And even if she doesn't think she will get a fair hearing, she should still do it.

John Dvorak

Parcel tongue: like parseltongue, but for Amazon workers rather than snakes

Kevin B

how does "wishing no ill" hide what's publicly available?

the damage is done

it can't be undone

terdon

16:40

@DavidA She has never been offered any form of hearing, that's part of the problem. They offered a process which is the same people looking at the same data behind the same closed doors. That isn't a hearing.

user310756

@terdon she's not an extremist bigot. She comes from a group that is targeted by the extreme bigots.

user310756

Not that, that stops people from being extreme bigots

user194636

@KevinB Some of it can be if e.g. El Reg add a clarification/retraction

Kevin B

They're not going to

John Dvorak

Isn't literally everyone an extremist bigot about something?

terdon

16:41

@YvetteColomb I know. Which is precisely why this is so bad. This is a person whose synagogue was the site of a mass shooting just a few months ago. And SE went and painted a target on her back. If they can't apologize for this, I don't see how I could continue using their products.

user194636

@YvetteColomb A different flavour of extremist for sure, but extremist nonetheless. Extremism is bad as I tried to say earlier.

terdon

@JohnDvorak No.

user310756

@JohnDvorak hm possibly. I don't like snails

rene

don't get carried away folks ...

terdon

@KevinB That's just the best I could come up with off the cuff. Presumably it can be done better. "We don't consider her evil", if you like. Just something to tone down the attack.

rene

16:43

→ 2 messages moved to Trashcan

user310756

@terdon :'( I tell you something - we live across the road from a synagogue (two actually) and a Jewish school. The school has armed guards at the gate and they check cars for bombs. It's really sad

Kevin B

that doesn't change the accusation though.

terdon

@YvetteColomb sigh... yes.

Kevin B

The action is what matters, not how SE feels about it

T. Sar

I've been having a hard time focusing on work and other stuff lately. This whole kerfuckle on SE doesn't leave my mind. I want to see it solved, I want to help, but I have no idea what to do about it.

terdon

16:44

And this is what is happening everywhere. Both sides of all divides are moving further into extremism.

Things fall apart, the center cannot hold...

David A

I see so many people calling each other bigots these days that it's hard not to just shrug and say that all of humanity is bigoted. But even bigots can behave in public.

terdon

Vile bigotry is unleashed upon the world.

user194636

@rene likewise, flower

user194636

@DavidA The word is losing some of its power due to overuse

terdon

@DavidA That's precisely the problem. Instead of engaging with people that disagree with you and having a conversation, you each take up positions on opposite hills and yell abuse.

(the general "you", not you)

user310756

16:45

@terdon someone interpreted one of my youtube videos as anti semitic and nothing could be further from the truth. The thought of what the Jews have been through makes me so sad... But the world makes me sad once I go down that route. Humans are not a nice species in places

John Dvorak

@terdon h̛̪̲̪̀ͅe̶͔̟̝̫̺̗͢ͅ ̟̠̭͉̝͍͞ͅc̱͞o͈̦̜͘͢ḿ͎̲̥̰͓͠e̞͚̬̤̰͢s̺̟̟̠͜

user310756

@T.Sar I totally understand. I feel the same way

user194636

@YvetteColomb Similar happened in mosques across NZ after the ChCh murders

user310756

yep

user310756

:'(

user194636

16:47

Polarization -> Extremism -> Violence

user194636

It's a worrying trend

user310756

same in Ethiopia during the civil uprising. People hid in the church thinking they were safe and were masacred with machetes

user194636

Puts our present difficulties in context

user310756

after the revolt these people went back to living next door to the people who butchered them, like nothing happend

user58

@194636 Yep. You can see how the hate started.

user310756

16:48

it worries me that if there's too much damage on this site - that is how we will feel. A pervasive mistrust

JJJ

@T.Sar try going to a different (smaller) SE site. Contributing there for a while and you don't notice any of this discussion. I can highly recommend politics.se but there are many out there and you should choose one that you haven't visited in a while but are interested in.

David A

Is it that hard to see the goodness in others instead of the flaws? Why do people enjoy judging each other so much?

John Dvorak

Normally you'd think that people who just start killing inside of church would go to jail rather than back home

user310756

@user58 the scary thing is - underneath some of the comments there are some people who do truly hate - and would enact violence in the right circumstance. But it's not really possible to know who.

user194636

@T.Sar Broadcast positive vibes in general to the universe

user310756

16:49

@JohnDvorak it was a koo

user310756

let me get a link

user194636

Do something kind for a stranger

user194636

Donate to a charity
Do some voluntary work

terdon

@YvetteColomb This is just a miniaturized version of society. What we see in here is exactly what's happening out there: neither side actually listening to what the other is saying and instead branding them as $whateverEpithet.

user58

@YvetteColomb Yep. Which is one reason I said I didn't feel very safe around anymore.

user310756

16:50

Rwandan genocide

The Rwandan genocide, also known as the genocide against the Tutsi, was a mass slaughter of Tutsi, Twa, and moderate Hutu in Rwanda, which took place between 7 April and 15 July 1994 during the Rwandan Civil War.The genocide was organised by members of the core Hutu political elite, many of whom occupied positions at top levels of the national government. Most historians agree that a genocide against the Tutsi had been planned for at least a year. However, the assassination of Rwandan president Juvénal Habyarimana on 6 April 1994 created a power vacuum and ended peace accords. Genocidal killings...

T. Sar

@194636 Those are things I do all the time XD
Doesn't help to alleviate the mind, however.

terdon

And each side is convinced that only the other side has unreasonable extremists.

2

T. Sar

I like @JJJ 's Idea.

user194636

@T.Sar Well I empathise will your plight then. Hopefully things will keep moving forward.

user310756

@terdon exactly! which is why I fight so hard against it. Perhaps you understand my stance a little better and why I come across as so fierce abou tit

user194636

16:51

@terdon It's easier.

user310756

@user58 that's understandable. I am older and have an illness that should've killed me years ago - I made a decision to not go down without a fight. You are young and have your whole life ahead of you. Unfortunately, people can be tracked down from their online activities.

T. Sar

Fork it. I'll just bake cookies on my office's kitchen.

user310756

It's someting we need to think about

terdon

@YvetteColomb To be honest, what I tend to see (or what I perceive, anyway) from you is a very rigid position defending what you hold true. You often appear to land with fists flailing and end up inflaming things instead of calming them.

John Dvorak

@terdon There were exceptions on both sides though

user194636

16:53

steps back

user310756

@terdon yes, I think that's probably true .. I have this urge to defend the underdog and it is sometimes counter productive. I'm working hard on how to improve that

David A

@YvetteColomb Be careful when fighting as it's easy to gain unnecessary enemies.

2

terdon

@JohnDvorak hmm?

user310756

@DavidA ofc! it's happened already :\

user194636

@YvetteColomb Oh you're an Aussie Rugby Union supporter then

terdon

16:54

@YvetteColomb Good on you! That sort of self improvement is hard. I know it well!

user310756

@194636 yes! how did you know that!

user58

@YvetteColomb My mother was skeptical when months ago I told her I didn't want her associating with my Twitter with information that would make me trackable, but I eventually convinced her to humor me. Really glad I did that now.

user194636

@YvetteColomb The "underdog supporter" gave it away

user310756

@terdon fwiw I'm always working on myself - self change is Haaaaaaard

terdon

@YvetteColomb Tell me about it!

user310756

16:54

@user58 yes and good

user194636

Heck of a lot easier to changes oneself than anyone else

user310756

I had a chat with another young user on here - and we discussed safety. It's better to be cautious

terdon

Ah, but far easier to demand change of others than to change yourself.

user194636

@terdon That's super easy! And lazy imo.

user310756

that's why I went back to the anon username - but by then I realised it was way too late for that... sooo

user310756

16:55

@194636 true

user194636

This is not my real name LOL

user194636

Or my phone number

user194636

It is however my PIN code

user58

Really? Oh, c'mon, I was sure I had found you when I found someone named 194636.

user310756

@194636 roflmao

user194636

16:56

I should change that

user194636

@user58 🙂

user310756

I'm gonna watch the vid Aza linked in here. bbl

user58

prepare to be educated and horrified

John Dvorak

@terdon source

terdon

@JohnDvorak ???

Sorry, I have no idea what that's a source for.

David A

16:58

To be fair, the only person on SE I've heard of that actually had a problem with his real name being used on an account got put in prison because of it.

John Dvorak

@terdon Backing up my claim that there were people on both sides that didn't participate in the conflict

terdon

@JohnDvorak Oh! You were referring to Rwanda? But yes, of course, there are always people on both sides who don't participate. I didn't think that was in doubt.

Transcript for