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5:09 PM
@Magisch America?
everyone I know from america is either still in student debt or just coming out of it
America has plenty of poor people
Probably the ones from the 80s might still have had some luck?
5:10 PM
stacks and stacks of them. They just try to pretend like we are the land of plenty while they keep us locked in the basement
@AGirlHasNoName I've heard. But you also still hear pretty high numbers compared to over here for e.g. programming jobs.
yes programmers make an enormously large amount of money here.
Hopefully I can get into that market one day.
heh. I know someone who makes 150k a year and pays so much more in rent and amenities that they end up with less to spend each month then I do
paying 3k a month in rent does break the bank quite a bit
Yeah, cost of living can be high too :(
5:16 PM
It is all about priorities ... sorry kids ...
Yeah, those are expensive too! I don't think you can raise one with a single income the way my parents raised us these days.
the math isn't simple there either
you take on more expenses along with the extra income
depends a lot on locale
Are you finding kids that boring?
Don't have any. Currently am waiting on things to happen so bored
And my office laptop kinda died and I can't fix it so.... Not much to do
I wouldn't find kids boring but I have a few blockers 🤣
5:30 PM
I explored the possibility of moving to frankfurt and taking a job there a while ago
pays nearly double, but it would have either meant an hour each way commute (no way no how) or being worse off then before
I couldn't move out of sg for now cause of Ash
Not sure where I'd go either
40 years from now journey still stuck in SG
"curse that immortal dog"
I'd be ok with that
A saner job would be nice. I'm sitting at an airport terminal at half past 1 doing... Not much
become a CM like shog
That was a longer term goal
I'm not sure at the moment
Though I guess hiring new/extra CMs would be a step in the direction I'd like to see SE going in.
5:42 PM
@Magisch No one can be like shog
Ben Popper on October 21, 2019

“We make a huge difference in people’s lives, and it’s not to be underestimated.” – Prashanth Chandrasekar

Last week the Stack Overflow podcast crew sat down with our new CEO to chat about his background in computer science and his vision for the company’s future. What follows is a lightly edited selection of that conversation. To hear the full thing, you can listen to the podcast here. Don’t forget to subscribe for future episodes!

Ben Popper:

Welcome to the Stack Overflow podcast for the week of October 15th I’m here with my co hosts. Say hi everybody. …

someone posted that already >_>
@AGirlHasNoName heh. There's lots of big shoes to fill
Historically there have been lots of awesome CMs
And well we don't lack for quality for most part
@RobertHarvey 'cause I don't wanna clutter the comments too much. And @JourneymanGeek 'cause you're here too. This isn't a witch hunt, it's just a very anomalous post and I'm trying to figure out the community's take on it.
@JourneymanGeek I miss Ana
5:55 PM
@Trasiva I was about to say.... I shouldn't post at 2am
It's all good dude
@user58 aarthi was still my favorite 😁
I'm just trying to cut down the signal noise and move over here so hopefully the comments can remain uncluttered.
I never met her, I'm afraid :|
@Trasiva so most of what I said should be ignored 🤣
5:57 PM
So...business as usual? :P
@user58 yeah she's early days/Chaos
You never joined the discord by the way Geek.
We even managed to get @Emilie all excited and a billion ideas running through her head.
Also she shares some cultural background with me, which was fun
@Trasiva careful, we don't want to break our new ROs
Erf. So many chat systems 🤣
5:59 PM
Psh, didn't we already discuss that?
I'll just reprint the parts we break
oh okay then
carry on
I currently use slack, SE chat and matrix
Oh, this was just for the 3D printing stuff my man
Not like, an entire off-site discussion. I was just removing the clutter from here since we flooded the chat
And tbh I am a little spread thin
Don't worry, it's not like I'm twisting your arm
6:04 PM
ignore the hand behind your back
Or the shackles on your ankles.
(I wasn't kidding about being tired 😄)
Not just SE though
how's your kidnapping situation coming along?
I'm still sitting here, so no luck with that yet.
Ooh. So
@user58 currently frustrated with work, the matchmaking situation and SE
6:12 PM
Wait, matchmaking?
Will be looking at booking an apartment in December
Yes, sticks with sulfur
@Trasiva oh yup
Oh right, Singapore, that's still very much a thing in that part of the world
My family is pretty traditional
Indian actually
And my parents are being useless
6:13 PM
One of the Indian guys in our office was being set up by his parents too.
Was your, uh, nephew's kidnapping sorted out?
And I am worn out from doing everything I can myself and not getting much support
He got fired before we found out more though, lol.
@user58 nope, ongoing too
6:14 PM
I literally need one thing going right in my life right now 🤣
Tip: Don't make a left turn next time you get in a vehicle. Things will go right.
You could go drown yourself in moderator flags
Oh wait
@user58 Remember, two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
unless those wrongs are 35 degree turns
I got absolutely nothing for that.
God, I screwed up so bad with this security camera setup on my pi.
It's too sensitive, I've gotten 54 emails since 6am, lol
6:29 PM
6:54 PM
@Trasiva That's... quite mild? :P My dad once sent over a 100 or something really big, and the account was blocked/banned/disabled because the provider thought he was spamming.
It's my own email sending me an email
@Trasiva Same for him :)
Well, the issue is that there's a storm going on at my grandmother's place where I set the cameras up
And it's set up to send the video every time motion is detected
Ah, storms are nice... except when they make your security cams go nuts ;)
Or when the farmers are trying to get the harvest done
7:03 PM
@Trasiva Get to know me and you'll soon find out getting me revved up with ideas is not particularly difficult x)
And all the help is immensly appreciated
My lawyer has encouraged me not to respond to that statement.
I'm glad we were able to get some things moving for you though.
I gotta re-try the curing station door though. It's just a smidge too tall somehow.
7:22 PM
Both are already gone
41 messages moved to Chimney
weird selection bug
/sigh am I the only one that basically wants to curl up in a corner and cry due to all the drama?
nah, although I'm personally OK
I wish I could comfort you people
i don't understand the problem
7:27 PM
@Mgetz Curling up sounds nice. I suggest doing it with a good book and plenty of comfort food though :) If I may: hug
@Mgetz no
Tomorrow should be fun... getting up early, heading into the forest and riding MTB with a friend for a few hours, and then we're going running. Then I have to go make some maintenance rounds I've been pushing off... should be busy.
tomorrow will be a day of new meta posts
So... cleaning and oiling now. BBL.
@user58 how much running?
7:30 PM
Probably around an hour
Running, I miss running.
I'm still at that age where I tell myself I can run a few miles, but old enough my body says "Try it and die Cripple King"
I've reach that age at around 8. I absolutely hate sports. In my mind, sport is like pain, except worse
well not all sport but running definitely qualifies
I envy you somewhat, to find pleasure in that :)
The MTB is much more fun than the running. ;) I do like running, but only for short amounts.
I keep it at walking, I'm done running
I started wearing my Versa again to shame me into walking more
7:44 PM
I could never run, I blamed being 6 foot
but... I hated walking as a kid too
mostly because i once got a bit of glass in my shoe and no one realised for ages and then my foot was a mess...
I got forced into learning bike. As a kid I was a bit slow when it came to acquire the good reflexes. I was so ashamed not to manage, I did not learn how to bike until I was around 20
my brother and sister weren't exactly the supportive kind
they thought mocking me was going to motivate me. It didn't
one of the saddest story I had as a child. I never understood people missing their childhood. Being in your 20s or 30s sounds a lot better
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Ehh. Give it some time, once the formatting is fixed everyone can probably see it ;)
Anyhow... Whenever that's going to be, it's going to be past my bedtime :( I'm always out of luck for these kinds of things!
Q: What is the process for reinstating a moderator?

JNat Please leave any feedback or questions about this process on [this other post]. From time to time, moderators will step down or be removed from their positions — they may have expressed their wish to step down due to time constraints or they may have had behaviors unfitting of a moderator ...

This question does not appear to seek input and discussion from the community. If you have encountered a problem on one of our sites, please describe it in detail. See also: What is "meta"? How does it work?. — Robert Columbia 43 secs ago
Basically every current moderator has a permanent and absolute veto on any of their colleagues coming back if they resigned
Q: What processes exist to issue formal warnings or remove moderators?

JNat Please leave any feedback or questions about these processes on this other post. This post lists two process by which formal complaints against moderators are handled by the Community Management Team. [The Moderator Action Review Process] is a process for allowing a team of moderators to ...

Please accept my apologies for raising a close reason. I have reviewed the question and agree that it should not be closed. I retracted my close vote. — Robert Columbia 18 secs ago
8:30 PM
what's PII ? I see "a moderator violating their moderator agreement (by sharing PII, for instance)"
@ArthurHavlicek Personally identifying information
k k ty
It looks reasonable to me, except maybe difficult to reinstate as for point raised by @Magisch
eh, i think that's a requirement of it feeling like the community has any say in it.
Also gives a bit of weight toward resigning, rather than it just being a case of emailing someone and reversing it.
One thing I like about the conduct removal process is that it avoids Super Mario Problem issues
(i.e. conduct that would get a normal user suspended shouldn't only get a moderator de-modded)
@Stevoisiak Yeah I saw. Glad everyone walked away understanding.
8:40 PM
This marks the second time the community bot has posted a question/answer on MSE
The last one being the community sandbox archive back in 2017
9:15 PM
quick check: do comments block post deletion for low rep users? If yes, is there a FAQ?
@rene I don't think so
yeah, thought so, thanks
I'll try googling some actual sources
I'm not interested in how Reddit post deletion works ;)
> Special note: You can't delete your own post using the Android app. You can, however, delete your post by using the app's option to open the question in a Web browser and deleting it from there, provided none of the below apply.
OK, not what I was looking for, but great
9:18 PM
I can see nothing changed from the moderator removal process since I resigned. It’s still reverse engineered for the outcome of removal instead of justice and fairness.
@AndrasDeak thanks, that was my source of knowledge I had on the topic.
well there's also "When can't I delete my own post?" which is relevant :P
@AndrasDeak the App quirk is always one I forget so that was useful to point out, again. Thanks for that.
I'm never sure with the Dutch
you're always welcome :P
@AndrasDeak yes. seriously
@AndrasDeak we're seriously blunt
9:23 PM
unless you unleash your sense of humour on an unsuspecting victim
@GeorgeStocker what seems to be missing is where and how past cases are being compared, valued in new rulings. Of plan-do-check-act there seems to be plan-do written down, annotation is maybe check but act is missing.
@BelovedFool flagged it.
My test is two fold: 1) would any stack exchange employee want to follow this process to have themselves removed as an employee? Would they consider this a fair process for them to go through to get fired? And 2) does the process itself show that there is an fair chance (as in coin flip) that the process won’t result in removal?
@GeorgeStocker is it realistic for us to expect the same scrutiny in handling mods as with handling employees? That assumes a lot more investment in the community than what I've been seeing
rude/abusive flags please on user259412's comment: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/335234/a-pronominal-proposal/…
9:32 PM
@AndrasDeak I argue if the community and community moderators really are the DNA that makes this work, you have to work it this way.
I wonder. Does SE have to fire a larger amount of mods or employees? I know firing employees is common, about 20% in 2017. But I get the feeling that it is rare to fire mods.
@doppelgreener :'[
Because trust, over all else, is how this thing will actually succeed. The process must reflect that.
yeah, I agree with that.
If the process is solely there to check boxes and to make everything “look” transparent and fair, you’ll see that just as soon as you hit your first case.
If it’s a sham process, it’ll stand out.
Where’s the presumption of innocence? Where’s the bar for removal? Where’s the ability for the moderator to engage in their defense or to conduct their own cross examination of the “facts”? Where is the impartiality?
CMs can be told “this person needs to go”. That’s what happened with Monica.
9:36 PM
@JoseAntonioDuraOlmos Hardly "common". There was a one-time layoff event. That's an outlier.
"Firing" is not the same as "making redundant", in the UK. In the US I believe the first is called firing "with cause" (?)
@user58 Outlier indeed. Is thus firing mods common or is it even more of an outlier?
ill leave this feedback on the posts, if I think it will produce a positive result. Clearly leaving feedback privately didn’t change anything.
@JoseAntonioDuraOlmos It's not common either. I can recall about five cases.
9:39 PM
whoops, misread, sorry
@user58 Ok, so both are very rare. Hence both are worthy of about the same amount of scrutiny. Unless they suddenly become more common a high level of scrutiny is not going to drain resources.
@GeorgeStocker The process was always entirely up to SE, and it required us to trust SE to act in a reasonable way. This went well as long as SE didn't abuse their power, and lost that trust. I don't think there is an option for a process that actually puts any power into someone that isn't an SE employee, so the only way to fix this that remains is for SE to regain that trust, which is certainly not easy
@user58 I'm pretty sure we don't know about all cases, SE used to be very discreet in handling those
Probably, yes. They'll also be very discreet about their employees.
@duplode The page is so long to load it won't scroll me to the comment, where is it ?
The problem with power: once used, you become powerless
@ArthurHavlicek already nuked
9:43 PM
@MadScientist you’re right, it’s not. The way I see it SE Inc only has one way to restore trust overall, and it’ll take a pretty strong action by their leadership to do it
sigh Boy howdy do people love being unproductively negative in the comments.
@user58 Also, that layoff (if we are thinking about the same event) wasn't a case of firing people due to policy violations.
"people leave way too many freaking comments" © user58
Those same people later (probably): "why do we have to nuke the comments so often"
9:45 PM
@ArthurHavlicek install my userscript: stackapps.com/q/7376/18722
@Rubiksmoose I don't see it so it doesn't exist. Prove it.
(And yes, as you note, if there were a case of employees being fired for violations, chances are we wouldn't know the precise circumstances.)
@GeorgeStocker I think they can't create a process that puts power outside of SE given the constraints they imposed on themselves. There are some mentions of handling information even outside the CMs, that level of confidentiality is impossible to keep with that kind of process. It's also incompatible with typical implementation of "due process".
@Rubiksmoose Stage 2: open a meta post asking why their NLN or R/A comments were deleted.
@AGirlHasNoName Can't argue with that logic!
9:47 PM
@Raedwald Then use a sock to post all the deleted offensive content
@rene I'm a software engineer and have no idea how to install this. Please assume I'm a labrador
@ArthurHavlicek see step 1. of greasyfork.org/en/help/installing-user-scripts and then follow the direct install link in the StackApps post
@AGirlHasNoName Then lament that SE is lost to censorship and suppression of dissent.
@ArthurHavlicek just go to chrome/Firefox store and look for userscript things
9:51 PM
@MadScientist to be clear, they have the ability to issue NDAs and rotate having moderators a part of the process. But I don’t think that’s enough if they don’t restore trust, and I only see one way for them to restore trust
I forget which one to use
@duplode "They flag and remove anyone who politely agrees with them."
OK, done, ty, ill try now
@Stormblessed anything except GreaseMonkey will work
@rene oh why not that one? I think that’s the one I use
(I only have one userscript, and it’s kinda bad)
9:52 PM
I took violentmonkey because I relate
Which auto commenter do you use? The one I found is not good
GM4 has serious issues that will not / cannot be fixed by script authors
It is too restricted and structured
But a lot of people seem to use one of them
@Stormblessed I use the one listed here: socvr.org/tools/userscripts
it werks, its kewl
9:54 PM
@Stormblessed and confusing
@ArthurHavlicek thanks
@rene what’s it mean when it says GreaseMonkey is “ only advised for die hards”?
GM4 basically broke backward compatibilty so a lot of scripts no longer work and some features you need as a script author were removed without an alternative.
That’s sucks
Dang phone buttons
I tried one of my scripts to port to GM4 and gave up.
10:01 PM
Ok, time to go to bed
gn people
or good evening or something else based on your location
@rene ?
rene broke greasemonkey
Oh I scanned too fast :P
10:25 PM
@MadScientist There are plenty of ways, for example giving the PM and other random mods the possibility of reviewing the evidence and giving their non-binding, public, assessment
This would increase trust
There should be no instances in which the PM is not allowed a defense or access to all evidence
There should be no decisions which are undoable
And no "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?" situations because obviously there is no incentive in finding mistakes in your own work
These are four concrete doable things that should be in straight away
but even a more in depth read of this process gives interesting (and pathetic) fruit, like "a mod demodded on N sites needs to use the /contact form N times"
> I guess maybe, as an initial matter, appellant must demonstrate the ability to copy and paste to be considered for reinstatement. It is the Stack Overflow way, after all.
^ overheard
@Sklivvz Well, there are egregious cases I can think of. If the evidence has been given in confidence, or there is good reason to think a user can be put in danger if all information is shared with the PM, it's reasonable not to give them access to all the evidence.
And if there is clear evidence of foul play (you've been a mod long enough to have seen some really ugly stuff pulled by users) then I could understand no defense (but that really would require incontrovertible evidence and something truly ugly).
Anyway, there are some cases. The problem is that there seems to be no indication that the mod will get the chance to defend themselves in the normal cases either. That is indeed an issue.
Basically this process is exactly the same as today
It changes nothing of substance
Thus it can, and it will, lead to the same issues
No. it just codifies it. The one good thing I see is that at least it may force SE to slow down. If only to give the involved heads some time to cool down a bit.
Having some sort of official procedure is a bit better than having none.
Not when a mod can be demodded instantly without any downside
And I disagree that having some sort of official procedure is better than none
It was crap before and it's crap now. I'm not interested.
@Sklivvz That was always the case, to be honest. It's in the mod agreement. It's happened before, although in every such case I remember, many or most of us were in agreement with SE and it has never been done so publicly.
@Sklivvz That is very understandable. Can't say it changes my feelings much one way or the other. I just think it's a tiny step but broadly speaking in a good direction.
10:35 PM
With the exception that the 2 cases I'm aware of were clear cut cases of violations with evidence which was widely shared (or at least, people know exactly why they hapeened)
one was a case of PII being shared (admitted by the mod iirc)
the other was a mod using their name being arrested (thus available on news sites)
Yeah. That. I mean, there are extreme cases. I understand that SE must have the ability to remove a mod if they think it's necessary.
Sure. And that should have oversight.
What we can ask for is that this ability is used with extreme caution.
@Sklivvz yeah, your two suggestions on meta make a lot of sense.
It's not only a matter of trust but also a matter of knowing the ins and outs of the various communities. We have mods with 10 years experience and many of our CMs have nowhere near similar experience. Involving the community would effectively raise the quality of the overall process
Yes. But that's tricky. I see your point, and agree with it, but I can see the other side too.
10:40 PM
A: Is SE still safe for queer/trans folks?

gdoronSorry for being honest, but people today think being "safe" means not hearing other's people opinions that contradict their own. Usually that eventually creates more violence, like you can see on campuses with "safe spaces" just one example. You can argue that this whole discussion and mess ab...

Look, your idea of having a random two mods from the network be involved makes sense. I could see that working.
> If CM1 determines a CoC or mod agreement violation occurred, they will contact the moderator about whom the complaint was raised and inform them of the ongoing process, prompting them for their perspective/context/reasoning, and add this to the documentation to be reviewed in the Confirmation Phase.
How’s Meta today?
Are the troll posts about the CoC still as apparently frequent?
@Catija And that will involve sharing as much as the relevant information as you can?
Can't exactly get their version of a situation if we don't tell them about the situation.
10:47 PM
Well I guess Monica is saying exactly that
@Catija Makes sense. Damn, I completely missed this before. But that could do with being clearly stated. That the details will be shared, I mean.
It does not say that the evidence will be shared. Merely that that there's a process.
"inform them of the ongoing process"
Hey terdon, we're about to demod you because you violated the CoC. What's your defense?
Does it sound fair?
No. But "Yo, Sklivvz, we're about to demod you because a, b, c and d. We'd like to hear your take on this, when would you be available for a chat" sounds decent.
10:49 PM
Not really
CM1 has already determined that a violation occurred at that point
So it's a witch trial
Well, the "we're about to demod you" doesn't sound perfect, but on the other hand, if they haven't decided there's a problem, why contact you at all? You did nothing wrong and it was a false alarm.
By that I mean, you are guilty unless you prove yourself innocent
I don't see any point in contacting someone if you don't have reason to thing they did something wrong.
Why???? Don't you think that your perspective is a necessary piece of the evidence before making any determination?
Imagine you moderate two users
@Sklivvz Not for an initial determination. If I look at the evidence and decide there's nothing there, there's no reason to contact you.
10:51 PM
Do you act based on the complaint of one, or hear both first?
@Sklivvz I'll hear one, and if I think there's merit to it, then I'll hear the other.
Sure, but if you look at the evidence and "determine the violation occurred" then it's a sham process
@terdon here's hoping the first one you listen to isn't a troll
unless you meant "there's merit to it" as "if there's no merit to it then it ends there"
@Sklivvz I'm choosing to believe that's just bad wording and that they mean "could have occurred.
at first read I read it as "if there's merit to it I don't have to listen to the other party" which I now realize is not what you meant
10:53 PM
@AndrasDeak Well, if it's obviously BS, it ends there, yes.
you realize that the cited paragraph
1) requires reaching a conclusion
2) does not require giving any evidence
3) merely asks for a formal defense against a verdict of guilty
@AndrasDeak Ah no, the inverse.
yeah, thanks, sorry
@Sklivvz That is a very valid way of reading it, yes. I'm hoping it isn't the only way, but I would really like that clarified, yeah.
It happens before the second CM is even involved... it’s not immediately before demoding at all.
99% of the time we conclude that nothing happened and move on. It doesn't make sense to contact the mod if the complaints against them are invalid.

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