Tavern on the Meta

12:23 AM

You should. It's good practice to get up every half hour or so

1:24 AM

@JourneymanGeek I hear some of the fancy new smart watches tell you to go for a walk every so often.

@Catija mine does ;p

It is so naggy.

My job makes having one pointless...

But I do it on my own too.

@Catija heh, I actually find it more useful when I'm out and about

My current job ... involves sitting around staring at a screen until things happen so.... ;p

@JourneymanGeek You work on deploying missiles in the military?

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog No

I however, can't talk about my job here ;)

1:28 AM

Those people have to sit and wait until they are given a command

No, I thankfully do not work for the military.

Anyway...it's interesting to have a videotape of the same show shot in 1999 and now

@Shog9 Clearly wasn't that... I didn't have to revalidate cookies on my home computer... but the system I was on wasn't a shared machine, either.

... has anyone seen MAR recently?

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ

Still pingable

Hasn't been on chat.se for almost a week.

2:02 AM

> This question has an open bounty worth +100 reputation from Tim ending in 7 days.

goddamit @TimPost stop hoarding all the bounty slots for yourself! I also wanted to award a bounty to an answer and now you've blocked it, again

:p

who designed this system?

why are bounties blocking?

and why can't you award them immediately

Immediate awarding can get abused as a way to transfer rep between socks.

is that a real problem though?

can't the devs detect it via scripts and prevent the abusive results, like it works with nullifying serial voting

or just don't count that rep towards the privileges which can be abused

like with +100 cross-site account rep bonus

or only allow it to be immediate for accounts which are way above the safe threshold limit like >500 rep

Q: Why can't I just offer a bounty for a question right off the bat?

106

Sometimes at work I have an immediate need to get an answer for a question. I have 3,000 points at my disposal so I'd like to just put a bounty on the question as soon as I post it to give it the highest possible chance of being seen. Why do I have to wait?

so you're not giving it to a 10-rep potential sock

@Catija that's not applicable to pinned meta discussions though

Pinned meta discussions? There's no such thing as pinning on SE.

(outside of chat)

2:10 AM

I see 3 of them

Ah, you mean "Featured".

well, "promoted" or whatever

stickied

in any case that whole post you linked focuses mainly on main site Q&A and not on meta

Both stickied and pinned imply that the post is literally stuck to the top of the questions list (based on standard forum terminology)

It also was written before meta even existed, probably...

Or featuring.

I don't know the early history of the site. But it's been asked over and over... there are several posts about it.

I suppose bountying on meta "polls" or "discussions" is not a cool thing to do, considering these blue [+250] total bounty counters have a way of swaying public opinions, but if one user is gonna use bounties and it's blocking everybody else for that period, I want to be the next in line to block it for everybody else to promote my chosen answer :p

Also worth mentioning that MSE is the only meta site where bounties are even a thing.

2:14 AM

ah well

why are they a thing there

Because there's rep here.

MSE is a meta but it's also a main site because it has rep.

why does it have separate rep from all the rest of the sites

why not a total sum of all rep you have from all other sites

iirc when this division happened everyone's rep was copied from SO

I don't think I'd be able to earn as much rep as I have, purely with meta activity

so in a sense it's not fair, but that's not what I wanted to talk about

Several reasons... total network rep doesn't indicate any sort of special knowledge in MSE subject matter... total network rep tends to favor users of SO over any other network site or combination of sites... (come to mind...)

@user1306322 No, there were three phases... pre-meta, MSO == MSE, and MSO =/= MSE (the split)... before the split, your rep was the same as the SO rep and the mods here were the SO mods... after the split, the site has its own rep and the mods here are the CMs.

@user1306322 Considering I only have 125 rep on SO and I have 27K here... I like it better the way it is. ;)

do you think bounties have a place here?

I'm conflicted about allowing bounties on polls/discussions/feedback posts like this meta.stackexchange.com/questions/312038/… in particular

I see there's Tim Post waiting to highlight one of the answers that he liked, and I want to do so too.

he already has awarded 50 to one

@user1306322 I rarely find much use for them at all. I like my rep too much :P Here, I find them less useful in general because they're often used to get the attention for FRs and the staff isn't really going to necessarily re-prioritize their work just because they want a bounty.

@user1306322 No, that's just "Tim", not Tim Post.

2:22 AM

oh so many tims around here

in any case, I hope I've brought my point across

I'm not gonna post on meta about this but yea, food for thought

I've benefited from them... but that was on a purely fun post. :)

I liked that.

after a certain threshold rep amount doesn't matter

then you look to see that the other person's bowl has enough in it :p

I've always thought that if you've got enough rep to edit posts instantly on one site, you should have that ability on all other sites, just because you know how to fix a misspelling, but no, you gotta earn more rep on this new obscure site which just opened up and has barely any activity to allow you to do that quickly enough

maybe I'll post about that when it finally grinds my gears to a screech

until then I don't have any more feedback :p

have fun!

Editing is about more than just typos... also, editing is a great way to earn rep... losing that can hurt.

I've only got 125 rep on SO because of edits.

You can earn up to 1000 rep by suggesting edits.

2:37 AM

@user1306322 I personally think they're pointless other than to get attention from the community. MSE is odd tho

Also I actually don't mind having people give my edits a once-over

3:33 AM

@user1306322 you get sweet swag for 100k and 250k

@Catija apparently trilogy mods. That was before I got very active tho

Really? Huh... I don't think I'd heard that... I only ever hear reference to the SO mods. Maybe it's shorthand.

Or maybe it went through two phases.

You off for the weekend?

Yup

Any news to report? Or is it too early in the day.

Non working weekends are busy tho

Hmm. Nothing newer than what I told you last

Shopping?

3:38 AM

Yup

Whee! Time with mom!

Hah. Something I hope the future Mrs can help with

Hee hee. Assuming your mom likes her.

Unless you mean that you'd go shopping with your Mrs and your mom could stay home.

3:52 AM

Lol. Would be nice to have someone to load balance yes :p

4:08 AM

Also that means I can let her handle the days when I have weekend nights cause it's tiring to do work and groceries those weeks

4:30 AM

seems Smokey now shows "pencil" for "edited"?

6:02 AM

→ 16 messages moved to Chimney

delv-pls 20K sdk meta.stackexchange.com/questions/312602/… ( needs one more /cc @ShadowWizard @Glorfindel @JourneymanGeek @Catija @TravisJ )

kaboom

!!/rev

@ShadowWizard teward/Solar Flare 38cc5ff (SmokeDetector: Auto watch of gethelpwindows10\.com by Makyen --autopull)

6:18 AM

@SomewhatMemorableName this, perhaps? blames @ɪʙᴜɢ

6:58 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Shortened url in answer: Is there any cure for diabetes? by Tony on health.SE

7:12 AM

waffles.

Downgoat

hey, anyone here familiar with ChatExchange

are there docs available online or do I need to build them myself?

@Downgoat maybe one of the devs in SO Botics can help you out.

Downgoat

oh thanks for link

yw

7:49 AM

I'm not sure what should I expect from a video titled "Ten Hours of Pink Noise in 4k HD" when the video is a static image.

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question: How Do I Politely Ask Chinese People to Stop Being So Loud in Mandarin? ✏️ by Lily Chan on chinese.SE

ɪʙᴜɢ

8:15 AM

@ShadowWizard Exactly :) The pencil looks cute, isn't it?

8:49 AM

@ɪʙᴜɢ bit weird on desktop chrome but perfect on mobile, yep.

ɪʙᴜɢ

@ShadowWizard Depends on what desktop you're having, of course.

Win10 didn't check 7 yet. (might be blank square)

ɪʙᴜɢ

Win10, too, but I think it looks OK

John Dvorak

9:52 AM

Proposed title for a podcast discussing the NCoC: Are you an oak tree, or a houseplant?

10:10 AM

Incoming maintenance!!!

SNAFU

Reminder: We have maintenance starting in just a few hours. https://twitter.com/StackStatus/status/1016400106596139008

Tweeted by StackStatus on July 14, 2018 at 10:10 AM

@SomewhatMemorableName Ugh :( Is there a survival guide somewhere?

I guess no. We are on the way to destruction.

10:42 AM

# Surviving a Stack Exchange maintenance hour
Step 1: Realize the site is down
Step 2: Panic
Step 3: Find a SE maintenance survival guide (this one)
Step 4: Read this and realize how surprisingly accurate it is (:p)
Step 5: Prepare a bunch of answers for questions recently posted in <tag/tags> on <SE site>
Step 6: Post all the answers (FGITW) when the site comes back online
Step 7: Congratulate yourself on surviving!

... how will you find questions if the site is down?

you obviously stored them in your emergency cache in case of SE downtime.

11:06 AM

But then step 1 is after the site being down

11:25 AM

@JourneymanGeek I believe the site would be read-only for a while ;)

^

@PrincessLuna Thank you! :) I guess I can manage that :P

Just make sure you fill your SE emergency cache if it goes down entirely! :p

11:40 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer: Software needed to recreate VBA forms using python for Arc 10.0 by moonlight on gis.SE

@SmokeDetector k

12:08 PM

@PrincessLuna Step 3, realize that there has been a 'welcoming' riot, SE has been stormed by newbies, all the CMs and mods summarily guillotined and the whole site is to be demolished.

@MartinJames That's a whole other kind of apocalypse, possibly in need of its own survival guide ;)

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Offensive answer detected, toxic answer detected: Trying to install tp-link archer T2U on ubuntu by vitaly.v.ch on askubuntu.com

!!/maintenace

@SomewhatMemorableName No such command 'maintenace'.

12:41 PM

@MartinJames How is that relevant to surviving an hour of read-only?

12:56 PM

@MartinJames but ah, I am prepared. No one would ever guilletine the dog.

SNAFU

1:14 PM

We're about to failover all Stack Overflow & Stack Exchange network sites. Downtime is expected to be under a few minutes.

Tweeted by Nick_Craver on July 14, 2018 at 1:04 PM

@SNAFU It wasn't even notable

@πάνταῥεῖ I missed it :(

Was too busy writing an answer ;)

discussion licensing feature-request comments creative-commons support advertising

1:41 PM

OK... that's disturbing.... @Glorfindel you have a... clone??

Jose Antonio Dura Olmos

383 1 14

I always thought it's your real picture, so either I was wrong, or someone stole your avatar...

oh wait

> My avatar is a copy of the one used by Glorfindel used under the CC-BY-SA 3.0 license which could originally be found here

duh... still highly confusing and should not be done. Flagging to request avatar reset.

@ShadowWizard see ....

ya

hav

Yes that's my name. :D

also

So it's shortened to hav as your nick?

looks like they edited that into all their posts

which i suspect counts as a signature

1:50 PM

Well, I know his forename :-P

plz-delete addon for serial downvote, which means trolling on purpose. meta.stackexchange.com/a/312609/152859 @rene @JourneymanGeek

I don't care who wrote it, and even if posted as something sarcastic, it's not a proper answer to a faq anyway and should be nuked.

@ShadowWizard done

Thanks.. interesting, same user who made that super mega edit to the data dump documentation, which @rene had to rollback.

(since the edit also removed stuff.)

I am wondering if someone else "abuses" my avatar pic :3

@πάνταῥεῖ yeah, already found something in the past, no?

But yours is OK to copy as it's, well, not you.

1:54 PM

Could well be :-/

You wish

:D

She's probably around 100 y/o these days, no?

@ShadowWizard This lady already had gone :(

:(

> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geraldine_Doyle

Glorfindel

@ShadowWizard yeah, I'm not too bothered right now but depending on what they'll do in the future that might change.

2:01 PM

Hi <strike>Jose</strike> :3

@Glorfindel well it affect others more than you, since you're less likely to get confused.

Glorfindel

true

But it's trolling, doing something to confuse others and cause a mess on purpose.

so even if "legit", it stinks.

@πάνταῥεῖ ---Jose---

Well, was this edit legit by these means:

> stackoverflow.com/revisions/51340001/2

@πάνταῥεῖ umm... but it's NOT her...

So the real one might still be alive. :D

happy again

2:05 PM

is the maintenance still ongoing?

Don't think so

nooooooooooooooo

Naomi Parker Fraley

Naomi Parker Fraley (August 26, 1921 – January 20, 2018) was an American war worker who is now considered the most likely model for the iconic "We Can Do It!" poster. During World War II, she worked on aircraft assembly at the Naval Air Station Alameda. She was photographed operating a machine tool and this widely-used photograph was thought to be an inspiration for the poster. Geraldine Hoff Doyle was initially credited as the subject but research by a professor at Seton Hall University set the record straight. After the war, she worked as a waitress in Palm Springs and married three times...

Also dead.... :(

meta.stackoverflow.com is still read only for me or is it just me?

I probably found the wrong link. Yes Naomi it was.

46 mins ago, by πάντα ῥεῖ

@SNAFU It wasn't even notable

0

A: A second sandbox

Testing is site is readonly. Let's see...

@SurajRao ^

So.. not read only.

^thats what I am getting

2:09 PM

@SurajRao huh, weird. Maybe A/B testing of some sort.

@balpha any idea why some still have MSE as read only? (sorry, Nick isn't pingable, and you're next on line for me. ;))

@SurajRao I'm getting that too ;)

MSE is fine.. MSO looks readonly

@SurajRao IPS main and meta look okay too

Gaurang Tandon

(sorry for the interruption) Wrt my previous message, today I hit an interesting obstacle: There was a post under which I had three obsolete comments. I deleted two of them and when I went to the third, I got the same rate limiting message that I had got yesterday. Judging from that error message, I had thought that multiple comments under the same post are counted as one. But turns out they probably aren't.

Apparently, they are using the same error message when a user hits the maximum number of comments delete-able per day

I'm guessing I didn't hit the 20 posts threshold but rather the "maximum number of comments delete-able per day" threshold (whatever that is)

@GntherMakulik @surajrao @onlybluefeet Sorry about that - it’s back in write mode now!

Tweeted by Nick_Craver on July 14, 2018 at 2:14 PM in reply to GntherMakulik

2:17 PM

It is, confirmed @Suraj

yeah.. its in write mode now

Networks are amazing things, no?

2:28 PM

yup :D

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, blacklisted user: Tabletop Wargaming / Miniwargaming by Gaz on chinese.SE

aged away flag there ...

2:58 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Potentially bad keyword in answer, blacklisted user: Can the client communicate with the AP after a KRACK attack? by victoria on security.SE

@SmokeDetector k

@rene does it have pension?

not yet

HUMBLE SOULS - Beads, Things & Flowers (1993)

3:36 PM

@shadow @rene Don't worry:

Notably:

starting to worry

@ShadowWizard About what exactly?

3:52 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ the unknown

4:17 PM

@Catija We are moving or classifer/regex for comments to an api and we are developing a bot that people (on any site) easily can run in any room (we will only do SO), hence the idea is if community user like to check comments they can easily get it up and running also with our macchine learning model but adding there own regex. Yes it needs people to get involved we will not do massive auto-flagging (I'm still with Brad that does not like that, if you like to auto nuke SE can do that). cc @undo

4:29 PM

> goodreads.com/quotes/…

@PetterFriberg have you talked with thesecretmaster at all?

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Tax implications of bitcoin income by amir Mohammadian on bitcoin.SE

@SmokeDetector k

Mark Amery

5:08 PM

Relevant to my rant the other night about contradictory moderation standards; I just requested a question be reopened in SOCVR, cited a Meta post backing up my claim it was on-topic, and... ended up with someone who dissented from the view in that Meta posted casting a delete vote on it instead: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/43258257#43258257

Not condemning Olaf - I disagree with his judgement, but he's free to use the powers he has as he sees fit. I also do things that violate Meta consensus semi-regularly. But this sort of thing - different users with closure powers tugging in different directions - surely contributes to the sense some folks have that Stack Overflow moderation is just arbitrary censorious dickishness rather than the consistent application of some sort of rules.

in SO Close Vote Reviewers on Stack Overflow Chat, 56 secs ago, by Olaf

@MarkAmery Votes are anonymous for a reason. Assuming some left a vote, just because he responded could be considered offending. Giving the benefit of doubt, I just ignore this part, but refer to the meta post. There is no clear line about how people consider the things, expecially as the quetion asks about multiple unrelated things. …

5:23 PM

@MarkAmery while I'm happy to agree or disagree with you about that moderation on SO is all over the place and that it is sometimes hard to find 5 users that have a consistent mindset. I'm sure you don't mean it like that but there are some words that you use that don't accurately describe or can be applied to SOCVR, while, based on your previous sentence, you seem to suggest that sentiment applies to SOCVR.

We're a visible, vocal and public group but I don't think it is fair to qualify that whole room as you did.

@Catija Hrm?

Mark Amery

@rene Not sure what you mean, @rene. If you're taking my comment as accusing SOCVR of being censorious dicks, that's not at all what I meant; I'm not even trying to single SOCVR out at all. I'm saying that if you're a new user on the receiving end of moderation by a community who can't even internally agree on their own standards - which is an entirely fair description of the Stack Overflow community as whole - it seems entirely natural that you might get pissed off about it.

@thesecretmaster Oh, hai! :D I thought you and Petter might have some interesting ideas to talk about regarding making a comment bot that would figure out comment sentiment... since you're already working on that for the IPS comment bot to some extent.

@MarkAmery Ok, I thought so but after reading it a couple of times I couldn't be 100% sure so I felt I rather put that out to prevent unneeded confusing.

Mark Amery

👍

5:30 PM

@MarkAmery I agree on the double standards and the confusion that gives, both for us, regulars and new users

@MarkAmery see

memions.com/wp-content/themes/wumblr/themify/img.php?src=http://…

@Catija I have just offered to give our dataset, I'm not sure what they are up to, but since we all do this for fun, I'm happy with all having fun and whatever they need we are happy to supply

@MarkAmery Hi Mark, watch out with the language.

@Catija cc @Mithrandir

5:58 PM

@Catija In general and also as SOBotics we are happy to provide tools for ourself and others that have fun moderating SE, but I still think automatic flagging is not logic. If SE wants to remove stuff automatically (Or push it to mods automatically) it's not hard for them to that. I can't really understand why I should that, but yeah it's a different view, a different objective. I personally is more interested of getting people involved

@PetterFriberg Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of auto flagging for comments. It's too easy to delete them without the mods ever finding out about them... but you still need to test for sentiment to figure out what even needs to be mentioned in the reporting room, right? :)

Yep, the plan is to move Heat Detector to an API, which can be called from any bot.

6:31 PM

@BhargavRao How close to being usable is this?

@Catija The truth is the machine learning with modern tools is not hard for any program, the problem is just having a good feed, a good dataset to classify on

@thesecretmaster not quite, @Petter's started the stuff.

@PetterFriberg We've got a lot of data:

in The Closet on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 27 secs ago, by IPS Comment Bot

I've scanned 27217 comments

Just need to classify it.

(so if anyone ever needs a database of 27k comments, I'm sure thesecretmaster can help)

6:55 PM

@Mithrandir Pretty sure @PetterFriberg has labeled data, which I'd love to look at :)

7:46 PM

Em. applied for ELL's election, making it 3 candidates for 1 position.

With the highest candidate score of over 30+, will it overpower the rest of candidates!?

@Mithrandir nice the mess is to classify it after a few 1000 it's not really fun anymore. Anyway if you have classfied data I'm very interested and for sure we will share our data. I also got a db with +60000 comments with classify score >4, but it needs to manually classified.

@SomewhatMemorableName hmm, still not sure if I should vote there

@PetterFriberg Some of it classified. That's probably only in the double digits, though, as that's new.

@PetterFriberg I've got a sparkley web UI for classifying comments that you can use if you want to get some people to do some.

Based off of the Comment Evaluator 5000

In our current dataset we have reclassified some to comply better to community as you see in this meta meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/333397/… the community does not have same expectations as SE also Brad's answer have been a guideline how to handle the feed

@thesecretmaster we use Higgs now and I have user from SOBotics sending feedback (They also have a review que in higgs) I'm not sure how much stuff we have in it probably a few thousand, if you like data from that however, you need to ping @Rob

To be honest I do not allow any user to classify data, it's mostly used to find data to add to feed. The big problem with comments it that it is very subjective... for some a frick word is enough for rude flag

Also perspective does not have a feed that fits perfectivly SO

8:05 PM

@PetterFriberg Is this the database you were mentioning earlier?

@thesecretmaster no we have 1 dataset currently used, Higgs is our latest dashboard with feedback from user, I'm not sure the amount of data it has (I guess a few thousend) + for the last year's I have saved all comments classfied >4 (our scoring with mutiple NLP) that db had a few months ago 50000 comments

The dataset is fairly well classified as community wish meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/333397/…

Am I the only one who finds the concept of a 'Comment Classifier' as somewhat dark and Orwellian?

@PetterFriberg So I'd need to ask Rob for Higgs data, and you can send me your database whenever it's convenient for you?

The other stuff is just tons of data that if you like to use you probably need to check it some

Fabby

@MartinJames Yes you are alone... I find it a bit dark and Machiavellian. ;-)

OTOH, with people being imperfect, something needs to be done...

8:12 PM

@thesecretmaster Yeah for Higgs raw data you need @Rob, if you only like to check it out you can go via web imterface

higgs.sobotics.org/reports

Fabby

@MartinJames I'm still a proponent of a voluntary system where you start off classifying yourself and then let the community take over and update that score...

What you see is all from SO

If you login you can also access review que and provide feedback

@PetterFriberg @Rob, when you take a dump, put it up on the dumps page

@thesecretmaster we also decided to push the level of what is tolerated probably a bit higher then SE both because this is what the community want but also to not spam our users in SOBotics too much. Remember we avoid auto flagging, Brad has asked me to leave the deletion to mods (second eye, no chat room nuke). Now yeah some stuff get nuked by SOBotics but trust me it's stuff that don't need a second eye

@BhargavRao @rob probably you need to remove all user info. There was a mess when I asked SE for feed, make sure SE is ok with it being public as a dump

It's a bit different as dump then just in dashboard

8:29 PM

That's true as well ...

You mods check that out probably passing data to @thesecretmaster is ok since user is also mod.. putting it all in public dump I would ask SE first

Then scratch my message, don't post it there...

SE Election Quick News: Out of 2 candidates, Bjørn was succesfully elected on CS Theory (congratulation!), 8 candidates on World Building are fighting for 2 positions (go vote now!), English Language Learner is still collecting nominations for 1 position.

And lastly... Mathematics is now collecting Q&A for mods for the election on 16 July, searching for 2... with a bonus of unofficial nomination post.

uh ... did NormalHuman give you his job and leave? :]

The fact is that many of our best contributes on SO are not politicians, hence they are to direct sometimes (What SE may define as unwelcoming), in most case's they mean nothing bad, they are just awesome programmer's that want exact info. WE need to be very careful that no witch hunting on users is possible (that's a mod task) and only concentrate on content of single comment

8:40 PM

uh ... imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?

John Dvorak

Imitation of certain politicians can cause major diplomatic faux passes wherever you go

iMitation

John Dvorak

fIattery

9:16 PM

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Just saw the BA 747 fly over Mueller. Really low.

@Catija Pilot lost sight of the railway lines again?

@MartinJames Yeah the rest of us watched Terminator

@PetterFriberg You won't be laughing when you all get marched into the extermination camps.

Sorry.. I meant 'suspension penalty box' :)

9:35 PM

@Catija Must have done a go-around. The approach paths into Austin do not involve flying over Mueller.

Anyhow, I'm in Vegas with some cousins from India

Thorsten S.

9:53 PM

Evening (at least here) together. Do we have something like a overview of Comment deletion etiquette (When should comments (not) be deleted?) for moderators here on meta? I would suspect yes, but I am too thick to find it....

It's essentially in the privilege page for comments. Anything not in line with the usage outlined there is is a candidate for deletion.

Thorsten S.

You mean stackoverflow.com/help/privileges/comment right?