Tavern on the Meta

That sounds a bit unfortunate for me because I would like to create a tag without it, and start retagging questions related to that... I have no question right now which would belong to that tag though.

Pops

38

Q: Can we please have the [foo] tag on SO?

Can someone please create the tag foo on Stack Overflow? We need to have it because Foo is a recent/upcoming release of a popular, established OS/language/framework Foo is a hot new language/library we're currently using some other tag for questions about Foo, but it's causing ambiguity with a ...

Laszlo Papp

OK, so I can add it with the help of existing questions, only. Thanks.

Pops: stackoverflow.com/questions/17442672/…

Pops: I tried to add the "qtserialport" tag with some explanation. Is that visible? I did not get any feedback like for the usual edit.

and the tag is not created....

Pops

Hmm. Did you edit the body or just add the tag?

Laszlo Papp

Just tag

Pops

I think that might be an edge case at your rep level... not completely sure offhand though.

Laszlo Papp

7:02 AM

what do you mean? I reached 1500 last night.

Pops

Right. But editing posts, for users below 2000 rep, is still a (relatively) new feature. I think there might be some logic in there that discards submissions where nothing in the body was changed. That's not based on any knowledge of the code, just a vague memory of someone mentioning the bug in the past... I'll try to bring it up tomorrow when someone's awake.

Laszlo Papp

Pops: I am now writing a post on meta then.

Pops

That said, there are a few spelling and grammar errors in the existing post; could you try fixing those (or making some kind of body change) and letting me know if that works?

That's good too.

Laszlo Papp

was there a discussion about this already?

I do not wanna create a dup, and quick search does not bring up anything either ... I might seek the wrong terms though...

Pops

Not that I'm aware of.

Laszlo Papp

7:09 AM

Pops: which tag should I add to such a question?

Pops

[stackoverflow] [tags] [editing] [reputation]

Laszlo Papp

Pops: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/196206/…

Pops: At least one of these tags is required - 'bug feature-request discussion support'.

support?

yeah, done with support, not bug for now... just in case.

Laszlo Papp

7:58 AM

Pops: who will be the tag creator in that case btw? The author or the reviewer?

Laszlo Papp

9:49 AM

Could someone please remove all the comments for the initial question? stackoverflow.com/questions/18462420/… After the discussion, they are just noise, and the problem is already solved, and I made the author aware.

Bart

Just flag for moderator attention using the "other" option.

Laszlo Papp

1:59 PM

how can I initiate a tag removal?

Bart

That depends @LaszloPapp. Which tag?

Laszlo Papp

qt-serial-port

luckily it is not yet used by any questions.

Bart

Then you don't have to worry. It will be gone within 24 hours

Tags without questions are automatically cleaned up

Laszlo Papp

what if someone uses it before that?

Bart

Then it will stay around until someone untags

Laszlo Papp

2:09 PM

exactly, so I would like to initiate the removal now.

to be sure and safe.

since that tag makes no sense.

7

Q: Trying to add new tag (1.5K user) results in instant "This item is no longer reviewable"

I just reached 1500 rep last night on Stack Overflow, and I thought it would be nice to create a tag for our project "QtSerialPort". Having read the text on the url below, I am about to go to the corresponding existing questions, to add yet another tag to them. http://lists.qt-project.org/piper...

bug tags editing suggested-edits privileges

someone created it here mistakenly.

Bart

I guess @Oded can confirm that the process I've described is the one to take. There are several users in the community keeping an eye on newly created tags. I'd say there is nothing to worry about. Worst case we appropriately retag it, should it end up being used.

Laszlo Papp

Is it hard to delete explicitly?

Oded

Not looking at code right now, but I believe since the rep level is low enough, the edit went into the suggest edits queue. Which makes the post ineligible for review.

@LaszloPapp That's overly "paranoid". If someone retags, you remove the tag. So it takes one more day.

Laszlo Papp

except that if someone uses that....

Oded

@LaszloPapp We don't have any system in place for that. That's what the automatic delete is for.

Laszlo Papp

2:13 PM

why are these illogical ways? The reason is that, the code behind the site is unable to support it easily?

Bart

After which you untag it and add the appropriate tag (once it's created)

Oded

@LaszloPapp Because we have over 100 sites and can't babysit all tags.

Bart

tags get created and removed all the time

Laszlo Papp

deleting one tag for request != babysit

Oded

Times 100 sites?

Laszlo Papp

2:14 PM

and automatic delete is not the same as deleting consciously.

there is no any guarantee someone will not use it.

Bart

And yet we never have a real problem with it.

Oded

Someone has to go in and retag - that's not automatic. The automatic side of it is the deletion of the tag altogether. It really isn't a problem.

Laszlo Papp

sure, we do.... there is one here at hand already....

Oded

Why devote human resources to something that can be automated? Why increase the load on moderators/developers?

Laszlo Papp

why do strange workflow for tag deletion? I could also ask this.

Oded

2:17 PM

What's illogical to you may not be illogical to others. And there is a history to things and reasons for things being done a certain way that you may not be aware of.

Laszlo Papp

That post does not tell too much.

if you wanna mean, "we do the right things, you just do not know" then nothing would be changed on the site.

which was mistaken in the past.

Anyways, how can I check who created a tag?

Oded

Tags get created and removed and questions are retagged all the times. Having someone look at tags reaching 0 tagged questions and then deleting them makes no sense to me.

Laszlo Papp

we are not discussing deleting 0 tagged questions

Oded

Also, consider that we have a very large database - deleting "orphan" tags in one go makes more sense than one at a time (in terms of impact on the DB)

Laszlo Papp

that is a completely different topic

we are discussing an insanely created tag

IOW, insane tag != unused.

Oded

2:19 PM

Then the process is to remove it from all questions tagged with it.

Laszlo Papp

you are talking about different things... it is hard to get a common ground this way.

you are focusing on defending the system for automatic deletion, whereas the request at hand is to delete an insanely created tag asap.

Bart

Go make it a feature request then.

Oded

Well, you are saying there is a tag that isn't making sense. I say - ok. Do something about it and remove it from all questions tagged with it. So it will get deleted.

Bart

But I'm pretty sure @Oded knows what he's talking about here.

Laszlo Papp

where can I do that?

Oded

2:20 PM

@LaszloPapp Do what?

Laszlo Papp

I would be happy to remove insane tags once I have the rep whatever it takes... whether you would not, that is your business.

Bart

@LaszloPapp You can already do that by suggested edits.

Oded

You make suggested edits to the posts. Adding an edit summary explaining the removal.

Laszlo Papp

no, I cannot.

there is no option for deleting a tag now

which is the whole point here.

Bart

And if you're asking about feature-requests, they go on Meta. Tag them [feature-request].

Laszlo Papp

2:22 PM

/me will do that

Bart

Let me tell you in advance that I would be surprised to not see that [status-declined] pretty rapidly.

Laszlo Papp

Also, I had another question above ... how can I check who created a tag?

that would be pretty silly.

if a few mods do not wanna clean up the mess asap, that should not block others doing it who are willing to contribute with that.

or a similar question to the above: how can I check what tags a person created?

Oded

@LaszloPapp As far as I know, there is no way to find out. It isn't important either.

Laszlo Papp

for you

Oded

What would you do with the information? Contact the user? How?

Laszlo Papp

2:26 PM

may know him?

is it so impossible in a community?

Oded

So? We are not a social network and we very much don't want to become one.

The focus is on questions and answers, not people.

Laszlo Papp

I have no idea what that means

there is no any social networking in question in here.

Oded

You say you want to find out about a person so you can contact them. That's a social aspect.

Laszlo Papp

communication about improving tags is not bad, and it would not even happen on SO, hence your answers are totally off to me

No, that is a technical aspect

to improve the site. To me, it seems only you think it social. I definitely do not know.

Oded

We have chat for this kind of thing. You can always get some people together to discuss tags. It actually happens here on occasion - when mass retags are needed.

Frankly, it feels like you are making a mountain of a molehill. Tags are easy enough to create and delete that it really doesn't matter. Just retag and fix it.

Laszlo Papp

2:33 PM

what should I discuss with you if you have no clue?

or someone else?

Bart

And if it's really a tag that is so problematic that a discussion is needed, take it to Meta. Then we have a clear history. See all the discussions on tag removal we already have on there.

Laszlo Papp

do you seriously think there is always someone here for any tag?

You are entitled to think it is easy, however I think it is currently messy.

You cannot delete an insane tag ASAP, even if you wish!

Bart, sorry but past mistakes are no excuse for future.

Bart

Can you stop your hyperbole? A user tried to help you out and created a wrongly hyphenated tag. It is on no question atm and will be gone within 12 hours from now.

Laszlo Papp

you cannot cover everything by "dude, we had a discussion, there cannot be more, and it is set in stone, no matter what"

Bart

What? I'm saying Meta is THE PLACE to discuss tag removals

Laszlo Papp

2:36 PM

if the world worked like that, there would not be changes and evolution.

Bart

If it is a tag that's in heavy use, take it to meta and propose the removal.

Laszlo Papp

why would I discuss it for hours when a simple button could be pressed FFS ...

Bart

Then make that a feature request. I told you to.

But you do realize that Oded is a developer on the site, right? So his input might mean something.

Oded

@LaszloPapp And what if people disagree with you? What if there are people who actually see value in the tag and do want to use it?

Your whole argument at the moment is - "the tag is crazy and should be removed, because I don't like it". And you also don't like the way the system currently works.

Laszlo Papp

@Bart: I mean not discussing development details

so I do not think the development details are too relevant

I am discussing higher layers: use cases.

@Oded: so you think that tag should not be deleted, and I should use that tag to go ahead and tag the questions I wanted?

Manishearth

2:40 PM

@LaszloPapp Oded is also a long time contributor to both meta and main

Laszlo Papp

Manishearth: I saw that, so what?

Bart

That tag will be deleted @LaszloPapp. Automatically.

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp So his input still means something

Oded

@LaszloPapp I say there is no immediacy. You are welcome to disagree.

Laszlo Papp

@Manisheath: so what?

@Manisheath: I am not allowed to bring up a feature request because I am new here?

I am not allowed to try improving the site?

Oded

2:41 PM

I love how you put words into people's mouths.

Bart

Feature requests go on Meta. Go right ahead. Any user can make them.

Laszlo Papp

@Oded: please answer my question: yes/no

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp Where's the feature request?

Oded

This is no way to discuss things constructively.

Manishearth

In chat? Sure, bring it up, discuss it, but that won't mean it will get implemented. Feature requests belong on the meta.

Laszlo Papp

2:42 PM

@Oded: you claimed something, and then I gave a rebruttal, and then you do not answer.

Oded

@LaszloPapp Anyone can bring up feature requests. They don't even have to be registered.

Laszlo Papp

"@LaszloPapp And what if people disagree with you? What if there are people who actually see value in the tag and do want to use it?"

"
@Oded: so you think that tag should not be deleted, and I should use that tag to go ahead and tag the questions I wanted?"

Oded

But - ignoring all the history and not providing anything new is a sure way to get your request shot down.

Laszlo Papp

could you please answer that comprehensive question? I am interested in what you think.

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp He doesn't think that.

He's saying that there may be people who think that.

Laszlo Papp

2:43 PM

@Manishearth: let him speak for himself.

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp Well, I doubt he will if you keep badgering him.

Laszlo Papp

WTF?

Manishearth

2 mins ago, by Oded

This is no way to discuss things constructively.

Laszlo Papp

I asked a question sincerely based on which I would prove why the claim was irrelevant in the first place.

yeah, so you jump on a new person just because he is new

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp Sure. And then you started being demanding.

Oded

2:45 PM

@LaszloPapp That's not what I said. Let me be very clear. If the tag is something you believe is not good, go ahead and remove it from all questions. It will get deleted, after a day. What I am not agreeing with is your sense of immediacy - that "the tag needs to go now".

Laszlo Papp

and when he brings up valid concerns, then you tag him non-constructive.

how nice.

Manishearth

8 mins ago, by Laszlo Papp

why would I discuss it for hours when a simple button could be pressed FFS ...

Bart

And I might add to Oded's remarks that if there is a significant number of questions with that tag, please take it to Meta first to discuss the validity of the tag.

Oded

Please stop with the personal attacks and with the martyr facade. It gets old, fast.

Manishearth

Yeah.

Laszlo Papp

2:45 PM

@Manishearth: thanks for repasting

random

If this keeps up the tag will be gone soon anyway

Laszlo Papp

@Manishearth: that is a very important post to highlight the drawback of the system

Oded

In regards to:

10 mins ago, by Laszlo Papp

why would I discuss it for hours when a simple button could be pressed FFS ...

Laszlo Papp

@Oded: the only personal attack I see ignoring technical arguments said by me.

Oded

Why? Because that's how we do things here.

Laszlo Papp

2:47 PM

yes, so something is insane, and it cannot be suggested to improve?

Bart

Feature request.... make it already ....

Oded

You are being impatient. And that certainly doesn't help with convincing other about change.

Laszlo Papp

@Bart: off-topic

we all know where FR goes, but people jumped on me, and not letting me answer to those is impolite to say the least.

@Oded: it has nothing to do with impatience.

random

Feature requests do not belong in chat

Laszlo Papp

if a tag is mistakenly created, and someone wishes to clean it up right away, why on earth would he be blocked?

@random: off topic

Oded

2:49 PM

Well, for someone who shows every sign of impatience, where you have been told the process, you seem happy to discuss it here (where nothing will be done) for hours, instead of using the proper channel.

Laszlo Papp

we know it belongs to the forum, and I will do that

.I even explicitly said

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp You're not being blocked. You're just not using the right channels.

Laszlo Papp

but do not expect a few people jump on me with IMHO invalid claims, and I cannot reply.

Bart

Why is it that in any discussion you are somehow the victim @LaszloPapp? (Yeah yeah, off-topic...)

random

@Bart Off topic

3

Manishearth

2:50 PM

@random off topic is off topic

Laszlo Papp

@Oded: do not jump on new comers with full of invalid concerns in their opinion, so that you do not demotivate that, etc... and then you will not reply to you, but go to the forum.

You can take it as a lesson for the future.

Oded

All we are saying is that we have been around for a while, we know the community and the history of certain features and how the community reacts to certain feature requests. We are trying to give you some of the knowledge. You are most welcome to ignore this.

Bart

@Manishearth That is not always true. It oscillates.

Laszlo Papp

Manishearth: we are blocked.

Oded

@Manishearth Let's migrate to SU

Laszlo Papp

2:51 PM

Manishearth: I could not remove the tag right away even if I wanted.

random

Laszlo Papp

instead, I have to discuss it for hours.

and others, too.

rather than just one person pressing a button.

Yi Jiang

@Bart Feature request: Rename MSO to Oscillations.SE

4

Manishearth

@Oded You crazy? When we have Programmers?

Oded

lol

Yi Jiang

2:52 PM

@LaszloPapp There is no button. As mentioned, you're welcome to suggest to the developers to add that button

Bart

Haha @YiJiang I might consider it....

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp That could apply anywhere. I could pester Oded to delete Bart because it's just a three-click process.

Right, @Bart ?

Laszlo Papp

@Yi: thanks, that is at least not a demotivating answer.

Oded

@LaszloPapp Yes. You don't live in a vacuum. Things you want are things others may not want. So, to get things done you need to discuss and come to an agreement first.

Bart

@Manishearth all my sockpuppets would thank you

Yi Jiang

2:53 PM

There is no button. Only oscillations.

Manishearth

@Bart oh noes the man has sockpuppets!

Laszlo Papp

@Oded: you are stating the obvious.

@Oded: my problem was rather the demotivating style, and "because you are a newcomer, you should just read the history and agree with that, no matter what".

Oded

@LaszloPapp Who said that?

Laszlo Papp

do you want me to paste?

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp when was that? Bart later on mentioned that Oded was a dev, so probably knew what he was talking about.

That just means to say that "remember that he's talking from experience"

Oded

2:54 PM

We say - please learn from the past. Please take our input into consideration so you don't get shot down in Meta.

Manishearth

There was no "no matter what" or any other thing like that

Oded

@LaszloPapp Yes, please do.

Laszlo Papp

sec

random

3

Q: Deleting misspelt tags

Under the newest tags section of Stackoverflow, I found the tags elipse and javascrpt which are likely to have been created as a result of a typo. Is there a way to suggest removal of such tags? If so, where? And how much rep is required for that privilege? I don't think suggesting a synonym woul...

support tags tag-deletion

Bart

meta.stackoverflow.com/users/212998/trab @Manishearth but they will never find out

Laszlo Papp

2:55 PM

"All we are saying is that we have been around for a while, we know the community and the history of certain features and how the community reacts to certain feature requests. We are trying to give you some of the knowledge. You are most welcome to ignore this."

Oded

And how does this == stfu?

Bart

And you translate that to a STFU? Oh boy.

Laszlo Papp

It is rude at best.

especially the end.

Oded

But please do not misrepresent what people did say. You may interpret it your way but most others don't.

Laszlo Papp

it implies that the only thing I wanna is ignore.

Yi Jiang

2:56 PM

@Oded Must be a weakly typed language we're using here

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp No it doesn't

Oded

I'd like to think this is a cultural issue, but I doubt it.

Manishearth

In fact, it implies the opposite.

They're asking you to take that into consideration, but not forcing you

Laszlo Papp

I rarely find in communities new people willing to improve things shot down this harsh.

Manishearth

@LaszloPapp Try reddit.

Oded

2:57 PM

I have read enough of your posts (comments and chat) by now to know how easily you get offended - when no offence was meant.

Laszlo Papp

frankly, I already lost my motivation.

to do anything on this front.

and I will go ahead, and tag with that crap

all the questions I wanted.

Bart

I rarely find users who are so unwilling to listen to the motivations of those who actually implement the damn system as to why their requests might not be necessary, nor a good idea.

Oded

People try to help you and you get offended immediately. Wow.

Laszlo Papp

it would be overly crap, inconsistent, etc, but I am not willing to come back to this tomorrow anymore, so I will just do that

random

Why does the tagging have to be immediate? Is this dependent on product launch?

Laszlo Papp

2:59 PM

.@Bart: then you must be doing something wrong.

Oded

Now it feels like you are trying to push your agenda onto the whole network and finding it incredible that we push back.

Laszlo Papp

@Bart: new people have a lot of ideas which are also getting integrated into projects.

Manishearth

@Oded exactly

random

17

Q: I accidentally created a tag. How do I delete it?

I attempted to ask a question regarding "object-role-modeling" (it's a design methodology that doesn't get nearly enough attention as it should). Unfortunately, when I wrote the question, I made a spelling error and assigned it to a non-existent tag "object-role-modelling". I realised my mistake...

support tags

Laszlo Papp

regardless some blocker rather than helper people are in the way at the beginning.

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