Tavern on the Meta - 2011-03-19 (page 1 of 3)

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12:50 AM

Ok, who's aboot? I wanna discuss code-smell

We do data analysis yes? But our code is also a bit of a portal to the management of the stuff that we analyze on. To that end there are some webmethods that we call that initiate some specific processes on remote machines. We have a "same looking" set of pages for each type of webmethod, as each vendor does things slightly differently but covers all the same class of operations as anybody else, so we can simplify and unify any of those vendors pages into one format for our end users.

lol

They love what we have so far, but we're trying to refine everything and consistify (if I may invent a word) our code, so that we can eliminate a few inconsistencies. To that end I'm redoing the basic "workflow template" of code that we use in the C# pages.

I have 85 lines of code that the dev should have anything to do with (but which they may or not change the length of, this is on my first "template" file and shows proper operation/usage), out of 375 lines of total page "procedural" code. That's nearly 300 lines of pure wrappers on the procedural elements that I don't want them (myself included when I work on the pages later) to touch. I also wrote three helper classes that can be inherited from.

I'm trying to decide if I should leave all those lines of code in the page or if I should make a handful of dedicated methods that can be called by a "parent page" class that will reduce the stink of interwoven methods and closed off sections of code, but which will introduce more delicacy and make things harder.

php.net/?beta=1

@ircmaxell hey that looks pretty nice

@drachenstern Sounds like you want to do some refactoring... I say go for it

@drachenstern I think it looks like dog sh*t...

1:02 AM

But that's just it, I have been :\

@ircmaxell compared to the original? :\

@drachenstern Both. The original needed a refresh, but that's 10x worse

I didn't really browse the site, was going on initial impression.

that's worth a lot in this day and age, but it's renowned for being shallow, yes?

I'm assuming

I just hope they don't muck with the documentation section

if they do, I will move to python. The docs are IMHO the best out there. If they make it less usable, I'm out

Hello

@ircmaxell I presume you can read C# well enough to understand the diff between comments and code?

pastebin.com/BzjpwKhp

1:06 AM

@ircmaxell Yah, that new look is pretty stinky. it's certainly a step in the right direction, but they need to keep stepping.

^^^^ expires in less than 10 minutes

@Jacob hola

@drachenstern We'll see

Natch there's some slightly proprietary stuff there

@ircmaxell I dunno about the best, but I'd be unhappy if they fuxored the docs.

1:07 AM

Well, one of the best? Seo optimized, good content, good comments, etc

I think what I need is to figure out how to have methods that present themselves as natively executing code within the parent function

@ircmaxell Some of the content is a bit light, but overall the coverage is nice.

@drachenstern That's pretty interesting. I can see a lot of opportunity for refactoring...

If I can refactor a few more parts of the page to work strictly off a "pluggable library" style of variable passing, then I can have a standard template for a page and just focus on the classes in the background.

@GeorgeMarian The more obscure stuff, sure. But the common stuff is really well documented...

1:09 AM

@ircmaxell if you're talking about the handful of methods at the bottom, all I can say there is "I know" :p

I'm pretty sure I'm too close to the problem and need some way to step back from it

@ircmaxell Generally, yes I agree. It's not coming to mind ATM, but there were some not so obscure things that left me asking: That's it?

@drachenstern I'm talking about the whole thing

Overall, I definitely agree that the PHP docs are good.

@GeorgeMarian PCNTL for one, some of the SPL stuff, etc

@ircmaxell I need to build a base class of some sort for the page, but I haven't quite gotten that far yet. I'm trying to get all my focal points aligned, so to speak, and make sure that the page works the way it's supposed to for various webmethods, and then I'm going to see about a base-class in the next rewrite.

1:12 AM

fair enough

do you have tests?

@drachenstern Can some of that stuff go in a code behind file? (Or whatever that's called.)

@ircmaxell So I ... not really, not for this page-style class. I have mockups for the database calls and the webmethods, that prove that the page operates as expected, as does working with the live sources. But not for this page. no.

@GeorgeMarian I'm not sure since I'm hooking event handlers. That's what makes me scratch my head.

@ircmaxell One thing that drives me nuts about the PHP docs are the table of contents pages, which point to pages with one sentence on them. :)

@drachenstern Perhaps that's a place to start?

I actually have no clue how to write a unit test for a aspx page like this

1:15 AM

@GeorgeMarian I don't use the TOC... At all...

I would presume it would need to use javascript

hrm, that's a good point...

@drachenstern Ok, that I have no experience doing. I just remember when that feature came out and thinking it could be an annoyance (due to splitting stuff up), but it could also be quite useful.

@GeorgeMarian yeah, I'm not entirely sure. By pushing stuff off to classes, like ValidateMeter or ValidateResponse I can get like 90% of the custom logic out of the page

I think what I'm most nervous about is customizability of response messages.

@drachenstern That may be a decent approach.

1:17 AM

@drachenstern Definitely a good start!

Because if I knew that the dev wouldn't really ever have to customize the messages, or if I could work out a good way to pass them with no problem, then I could pretty much make it "change the involved class name, specify the page type, and then write all the code in the class.

@ircmaxell that was the majority of this rewrite, besides reflowing the page and coming up with a consistently usable page style that would work for them all.

Some of the old pages the loop timers were horked, they would just keep spinning a refresh every three seconds forever

ahhh

@GeorgeMarian Yeah, that got much worse after they updated the documentation engine, but overall it's a fairly minor annoyance I suppose.

I've got all the configurables loading from the database, as are the majority of the messages, and if the devs (myself included) keep our fingers out of the "region"s then I think it'll be pretty good

I've pulled 154 lines out of the original page, but I'm not sure how many I added ... looks like the diff between the original and the rework is 535 to 148 on the CS side, and 113 to 27 on the ASPX side, but like I said, I fixed a lot of broken and non-usable stuff and I added three or four features to the new page. I didn't realize I had changed things that much :\

@TimStone I"m all about minor annoyances. ;)

1:21 AM

Wow all the stuff I added makes me kinda depressed

that's a lot of bloat :\

@drachenstern What are you using for source control?

@TimStone Happy Birthday

Thank you :)

@GeorgeMarian the only good SCM for Windows, Hg

@Jacob how are you holding up?

@spoulson Thanks!

1:22 AM

Not to bring up sobering topics, but I feel it's important.

@drachenstern Are you familiar with git? How does Hg compare to that?

@GeorgeMarian superficially. I seem to prefer Hg over git, but that's likely just my personal pride or something there. That whole "I know how Hg works and I don't know how git works so therefore Hg is better".

hehe

The reason I'm asking is that I'm not familiar with the Hg workflow. In git it's commit and commit often. Ideally in logical chunks, of course.

Granted, that would still result in a monster diff for the entire set of changes.

@GeorgeMarian that's pretty much how we do it over on this side of the fence too.

So like I have a local repo that I can commit to, and I can push those changes to the master repo when I like all the changes as a contiguous whole.

@TimStone BTW, she's up and running: toomanywindows.net Not much to see and DNS may have not propagated yet.

1:26 AM

I can also download other's changes and not apply them to my working set right away.

@GeorgeMarian propagated to here.

@GeorgeMarian Hello world!

@Jacob did you leave again?

Sweet!

@GeorgeMarian Unlike my 60 file svn commit. ;)

heh

1:27 AM

@TimStone yeah, everybody does that at some point don't they?

I'm looking at a 10-12 file commit for this one set of pages I'm blathering on about tonight.

I've heard plenty of bad things about svn, thought not as bad as cvs. Of course, there is the fact, as Linus puts it, svn is supposed to be a better cvs.

I'd switch to Hg in a heartbeat, heh. Unfortunately that's an argument I'm going to have to have, and I'm not up to that yet.

I take that back, I'm looking at 18ish files. But they're all connected, like I have 6 new images, and I'm adding four new classes.

@TimStone I see that too! Hello to you too world!

@drachenstern Yeah, Eclipse and switching SVN branches never seems to go quite right...so when I'm making significant changes, it's either don't commit or commit a broken build...both crappy options.

1:30 AM

@TimStone yep.

@YiJiang Well, there you have it @GeorgeMarian. If it works in Singapore, you're good to go.

@TimStone Oy

@YiJiang Oh, nice. That was some good propagation. :)

Now, I must resist the urge to toy with it and instead continue to prepare for my interview that got moved to Monday. :)

Before that, I must eat. bbiab

Also, I'm ~150 messages from surpassing @balpha so I should be top six by tomorrow night

Monday? That's a whole few days away! ;)

I'm in fourth? I'm not sure that that's a good thing. :P

1:34 AM

@TimStone lol That's what I said when I found out on Wednesday. :)

Ah, well.

@TimStone ;) I figure when I get to fourth you'll be in third and we'll both be edging up on Josh. This migration does not do him well.

@TimStone Heh. Well, I'm still 2nd behind you in the running for the Zombie tag. :)

I had such a huge headache today...between that and playing Homefront and Halo: Reach, I can't remember what I was supposed to be doing..

Homefront?

1:35 AM

Yeah

oh, nm

@GeorgeMarian Hahah

my brain hoped it was related to this:

Homeworld is a real-time strategy computer game released on September 28, 1999, developed by Relic Entertainment and published by Sierra Entertainment. In 2003, Relic released the source code for Homeworld. Homeworld was the beginning of a series, followed in 2000 with ' and in 2003 with Homeworld 2. Plot Beneath the scorching sands of Kharak, the Kushan people have discovered the remains of a long-forgotten titanic spaceship. Buried within the ancient remains, the secret of their lost homeworld. For thousands of years, the Kushan have survived on the arid planet Kharak, corralled into...

@drachenstern No, no its not

@YiJiang so I see

1:38 AM

Its a FPS set in near future America being invaded by North Korea

@drachenstern Ah no, it turns out it's more related to Charlie Sheen.

(Charlie Sheen starred in Red Dawn, which was directed and co-written by John Milius, who provided the story for the game :P)

> The campaign is said to be 5–10 hours long depending on experience

Which translates to Cole's taking about 25-30 hours to complete on "Normal"

Yeah, 5-6 hours sounds right.

Yes but my WP link was a very cool game too ;)

Probably would have taken less if the A.I. players weren't idiots >_>

1:42 AM

So you've already beaten the game then. Right on.

@drachenstern Yeah, I remember Homeworld being pretty awesome.

I'm gonna ask the sassy question: You were like what, 12 when that was big? :p

I've had a computer for a while ;)

Wait, that thing had the source code released in the few years I decided to try living off the net? wtf? How have I never noticed that before? I may have something new to do when I get home tonight...

Now installing Microsoft Expression Encoder 4

Attempting to perform a native Microsoft Screen Capture of about 45 seconds length.

2:01 AM

Hello

@drachenstern Sorry been working, but ok, I went to the candle vigil today.

@Jacob it's all good. How close were the two of you?

Was the candle vigil done at his/your church?

@drachenstern Decent friends, one of my friend is really torn over it, they were extremely close

@drachenstern no it was at the accident scene..

ok

Well, again, as little as it is, sorry that it had to happen and to you

@drachenstern Yeah, They pulled me out of class to talk to someone. But it really sucks; Theres a petition to move the start of the school back 20 minutes so that its daylight when everyone leaves.

2:14 AM

I don't see a problem with that myself.

Because PD said rain and poor visibility due to darkness were the causes.

2:28 AM

If anyone is in here still, mind running NSLookup on bugs.pulsesoftworks.com ?

I'm getting a timeout

GAAHHH Pfsense and DNS aren't friends again...

2:55 AM

in JavaScript on Stack Overflow Chat, 4 hours ago, by Shaz

@Nick "I would rather attempt to write html in a dos prompt than use Dreamweaver" xD

@YiJiang Thats, extreme...

Picking on poor Dreamweaver, tsk :P

dl.dropbox.com/u/1722364/Stack%20Overflow/Reputation%20Graph/…

I still need to implement zooming, but it should be easy with the newly refactored code

\o/

3:19 AM

Does anyone know if write support will be included in 2.0? I've seen differing accounts

@Jacob The SE API? I don't know, ask @RebeccaChernoff

@YiJiang Well, at least Dreamweaver is able to handle PHP technicalities, heheh.

4:18 AM

@GeorgeMarian: @TimStone: hai Guys, How do u do

@Jacob API v3—stackapps.com/questions/1999/announcing-api-version-1-1

@SankarGanesh Hey. I'm currently doing a less than stellar job of preparing for an interview.

And you?

@GeorgeMarian All the Best for your Interview, tell for what kind of interview are you preparing, so that i can help you, by giving some ideas???

It's a PHP developer position. I need to stay of my new purchased webhost and focus on thinking about the interview. :)

@GeorgeMarian I am novoice user in PHP, I have a good of exp in java, j2ee, struts , ejb3 and Spring and android

4:31 AM

No worries. I have some idea what they're interested in. It's just a matter of avoiding the distractions.

@GeorgeMarian hmmm

@GeorgeMarian I have a Question to you, can i shoot it now

Sure, ask away.

@GeorgeMarian i want to access this chat room , in my mobile, i mean with the help of Ebuddy i can access yahoo and gtalk , similarly can i use this room with any software in mobile

@SankarGanesh Not natively. Someone, I don't recall who at the moment, created an XMPP (Jabber) bridge. I'm not sure what the status of it is. I kinda forgot to keep up on it.

@GeorgeMarian Oh, can i post this as question in meta

4:45 AM

@SankarGanesh Do you mean to ask about accessing chat with some client other than a web browser?

@GeorgeMarian Josh (unknown exception)

@Jacob Ah, thanks. I'll blame his many names for my not remembering. ;)

@GeorgeMarian yes, Mate, i want to ask, how can i access the chat in my mobile

@mootinator: Hi, How do u do

Oky.

I'm not really here ^_^

@SankarGanesh Try searching first. It may have been asked already.

4:50 AM

@GeorgeMarian Sure, George

@GeorgeMarian: I have another question , to you

@SankarGanesh Heh, just ask it. If I know, I'll answer it. :)

@GeorgeMarian Did you saw my blog

@SankarGanesh I'm not sure. I vaguely remember you linking it before, but I'm not sure.

@GeorgeMarian This is my blog sankarganesh-info-exchange.blogspot.com ,see this mate, because my question is in this

Heh, that's a long name. :)

4:58 AM

@GeorgeMarian hmm , you se in my blog, i want to highlight the code, for that i searched and i had got syntax highlighter ,As per the instruction in this iste, i had open my blog and followed the steps, it says me as error, any idea on this mate

I'm not familiar with blogspot's system or templates.

@GeorgeMarian oh

5:17 AM

for syntax highlighting, google for "js syntax highlighting", choose one syntax highligher, and after you installed one, put your codes in "<pre>" or "<code>" or "<textarea>" tags, based on syntax highlighter.

@YOU oh, Thanks for the Info, Mate

@YOU: Still, i have a doubt

doubt on which?

@YOU Mate, i had downloaded Syntax Highlighter in this code.google.com/p/syntaxhighlighter/downloads/list, then tell what i have to do

5:33 AM

please google "syntaxhighlighter blogger"

basically, you include, their javascript files and css files in your blog template

and then initiate with

<script type='text/javascript'>
SyntaxHighlighter.all()
</script>

then wrap your codes with
<pre class="brush: xxxx">
..........
</pre>

in the posts

if you don't have hosting, I think you can just include those from googlecode svn.

http://syntaxhighlighter.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/Scripts/

java example page, could be this one

http://syntaxhighlighter.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/Java.html

6:13 AM

@YOU: Thanks, for the help

user image

As much as I believe in (and typically prefer) a CLI interface, user admin is much easier through MySQL Administrator.

@YiJiang Eh? The fact that Grace Note left that for Jeff to do?

@GeorgeMarian Hehehe, she's a psychic :P

heh

Where's @Shog9 to hear me complain about the burn on this cigar? :)

6:51 AM

Grrr...why is there a random "1" being spit out by phpinfo()?

Did you echo it?

As in echo phpinfo();? Yes.

That's why ;)

aruh?

phpinfo() will generate the screen sans echo.

But I guess it returns 1 or something.

Heh, I was getting frustrated because my SSH key wasn't working..turns out that I wasn't in insert mode in vi and it stripped off the first s in ssh-rsa when I copy+pasted. Whoops.

6:56 AM

@TimStone Right you are. Ok, I guess that makes sense. Oddly enough though, I'm pretty sure I noticed the 1 within the body of the output. i.e. between the last <div> and the closing </body>. But, in this last source, it was after all the html.

Anyway, definitely /facepalm worthy.

@TimStone LOL

I still make mistakes like that with vi, even though I find myself attempting to use vi shortcuts all over the place.

Heheh, yeah...I can't believe that it took me that long to figure it out though. sighs Well, now that that's taken care of, I can get back to remembering what I was doing with this server...

@TimStone Heh, occasionally I remember to write that down before chasing some problem. Occasionally, since it's hard to tell when it's worth that effort.

When I taught I used to go off on so many tangents, my tangents had tangents of their own. it was always useful stuff, but sometimes I relied on my students to remember where we started. :)

Reminds me indirectly of this one professor I had who, during the course of an hour and a half long class, would tell the same tangental story twice as if he hadn't told it before.

lol

7:11 AM

@GeorgeMarian what's the time there

Just after midnight.

@GeorgeMarian oh, here's 12.46 pm of mar 19

@GeorgeMarian:haha,lol

@GeorgeMarian: Then , when you go for sleep

I'll probably go to bed at 1 AM.

I'm a night owl, though I have been trying to go to bed earlier these days.

@GeorgeMarian: Hmm, Me too Night Owl, i love reading Books, :)

You know, you can read books during the day as well. ;)

7:24 AM

@GeorgeMarian lol

That said, I think the first all nighter I ever pulled was due to getting sucked into a book. Before I knew it, it was morning.

@GeorgeMarian lol

lol

@GeorgeMarian Tell about you, do how have any kids

Nope. Only my gf's cats.

7:27 AM

@GeorgeMarian oh, why, this seems to be you are martial status is single, am i right, haha, lol

Because I am. gf = girlfriend

Not that I couldn't have a wife and a girlfriend, but I'm not that kind of person.

@GeorgeMarian oh, then tell me what kind of attitude and what kind of person u are my dear friend

That's a topic for an entire book. :)

Basically, I work hard, I play hard and I have high expectations.

@GeorgeMarian i m excepting your biography , Book, can you give ime as a free downloadble e-book,haha,lol,:)

You mean biography. :)

A bibliography is a list of books used in a paper, article, research, etc.

7:33 AM

@GeorgeMarian typing bug mate

heh

@GeorgeMarian Mate, did you conduct code review for your own code, once you had finished your codes

Since we're the only one's chatting, you don't have to address each coment to me directly. I can see that there's a new message in the room, even if the window is minimized.

@SankarGanesh Yeah, of course.

I need to read plenty of books on code review, but i was not able to download those books for free, do u know any free e books which gives me plenty of ideas in code review

I don't know that there are many books on code reviewing. The only one that that comes close is called "Code Reading: The Open Source Perspective" but it's not free. I don't even know if there's an e-book version of it.

7:43 AM

@GeorgeMarian oh,ok, i will search it

0

Q: Need Help in Using the Stack Exchange Chat Rooms in Mobile?

Hi Friends, I have a nokia mobile, with the help of E-Buddy,NimBuzz, i was able to login in FaceBook, yahoo, gtalk with the help of these application , similarly i was curious to know whether any application similar to E buddy , Nimbuzz, which helps to me to login in the chat rooms of stack Exch...

feature-request specific-question

@TimStone: Mate, Any Idea on My Questions

@GeorgeMarian: Do you play Guitars???

Sometimes.

I haven't stuck to it, so I pretty much suck at it.

i had planned to launch my first step in Guitars from Tommorow

2

Q: Need Help in Starting to Learn Guitars?

Hi Friends, I am new buddy in guitars, from my childhood i loved to learn guitars, due to some problem i was not able to learn it, But now i want to learn guitar, I was confused to Buy Electric Guitar or Classic Guitar to start my learning, Because i learning myself by refering this http://g...

beginner learning

Cool. Guitars are pretty cool. You can do some really interesting things with them and in a way they're easier to play than a piano.

That said, every musician should learn to play the piano.

Learning piano is in Next Objective,:)

I request you to suggest your answer in my question

8:03 AM

@RebeccaChernoff @NickCraver hey any news on when SEDE will be updated! I'm going nuts checking it a few times every day! =S

@GeorgeMarian:ok, Bye, See you after an hour

@SankarGanesh C'ya. Hopefully, i'll be in bed by then. :)

@GeorgeMarian ok, I pray to god, to keep happy with you for 24x7

1 hour later…

badp's sockpuppet

9:26 AM

BUR-NI-NA-TE

-2

A: Should we reconsider the language support of stackoverflow?

Using anything else than Esperanto ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esperanto ) is like supporting Saddam and Gaddafi. We really need to stop implement this terrorists ideas of "democracy" on our only communication channel. Lets change today!

@badpssockpuppet Isn't that also the moron who posted this?

-7

A: Allow users to be able to see their own deleted questions

I think it can be solved by adding "My deleted questions" in the profile page. Hand over the bounty please.

badp's sockpuppet

@YiJiang That's kinda salvageable.

btw by BURNINATE I meant flag as offensive

not a mere downvote

0

Q: Javascript. Compare UNIX timestamps.

Hello! I got two timestamps in unix format and I need to find a way to compare them and to find out which one is the newest (closest to present date). The two timestamps are: 1299925246 1300526796 Is there a simple way of doing this in Javascript? Thankful for all input!

Use the uh, bigger than comparison operator?

10:20 AM

@YiJiang Bah humbug. Use a jQuery plugin.

@balpha: and @YiJiang: Any Idea on this Question

0

Q: Need Help in Using the Stack Exchange Chat Rooms in Mobile?

Hi Friends, I have a nokia mobile, with the help of E-Buddy,NimBuzz, i was able to login in FaceBook, yahoo, gtalk with the help of these application , similarly i was curious to know whether any application similar to E buddy , Nimbuzz, which helps to me to login in the chat rooms of stack Exch...

feature-request specific-question

tbh, I don't even understand it

if you're asking what clients have support for the chat -- none

but:

@balpha are you saying about my question

try going to chat.meta.stackoverflow.com/rooms/89/… in your mobile browser

if that's usable, we can add your phone to the list of supported mobile user agents

@balpha how you get this url

10:33 AM

what do you mean?

@balpha: can i know how you give this url, because i want to Stackoveflow chat rooms too

just add ?mobile=1 to the end of the room URL. That will force mobile mode, even if your phone isn't recognized as a mobile user agent. If that works fine, we can add your phone to the supported list (like Android, iPhone etc.) so you'll automatically get the mobile version

@balpha OK, POST this as answer to my question, mate, because it works flawlessly, Thanks

cool -- what's your user agent string?

@573633: i had used the url given by you

10:39 AM

whatsmyuseragent.com

ok

badp's sockpuppet

Did I mention SpaceChem is moderately awesome?

11:14 AM

@giddy soon!

we've had some performance issues this week that we just nailed down, maybe a blog post about that later....but Sam (waffles) will likely update that early next week

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