Crypt of the Tavern: Spectator Lobby

Unihedron

13:52

RO pls

Feeds

rene has added Unihedron to the list of this room's owners.

Unihedron

Yay you're the best!

Vogel612's Shadow

~grabs a big salmon

Unihedron

I added the following tags: [attention] [care] [discussion] [excuses] [respect] [waffles]

Revious

in Tavern on the Meta, 3 mins ago, by SPArchaeologist

@Vogel612'sShadow I do think that there are people that vote just for the fun of damaging the site contents, I do think that it is ridiculous that they are allowed to do that, I do think that every proposal that attempts to address that will be utterly destroyed because "they are entitled to do what they want and you shouldn't cry if they downvoted you"

Vogel612's Shadow

13:55

@Unihedron add fish and brown please

Unihedron

@Revious Since I have some time before I gotta go save the world, you mind if I ask you a question?

I added the following tags: [brown] [feesh] [fish] [fishing] [not-brown]

Revious

@Unihedron of course not..

Unihedron

@Revious I'm always of the stance that "It's hard to have the perfect system, and even if one forms one it will still be imperfect as long as human activity is involved". What do you think?

Revious

@Unihedron I think maybe it's true, but if most of system are strongly imperfect is not because of human limits, but because of our lack of education. Or at least this is my opinion.

One big issue is, for example, dychotomic thinking

Men are always looking (for their nature) for a shortcut.. if you disallow that shortcut they start to improve and to grow

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious you seem to be thinking of dichotomous....

which is black/white thinking

Revious

14:01

@Vogel612'sShadow yes, thanks for the correction. And I would also add that it's just one of many distortions which have been classified..

As human being we have some natural bias which are very useful to motivate us, to push as at not staying as Amoebas (google.at/…)

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious sidequestion: what country are you living in?

Revious

italy

that's why I know so well what can go wrong with men-organizations :D

Vogel612's Shadow

Last time I checked that was not a "distortion" (you prob. meant "disorder") one could be diagnosed with.

Revious

we have really lot of problems :(

mmm... this are some cognitive distortions

psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-cognitive-distortions/0002153

disorders are usually personality traits which becomes painful for the subject

Unihedron

I appreciate your points, but I would also like to point out that life is full of false dichotomies.
Medical deaths can be reversed and patients certified to be dead comes back alive.
You never think about it really... Concepts like light vs. darkness and good vs. evil seems to be fundamental, inalienable facts. The human mind always seems to default assume a diametric, exclusive relationship between opposites.
In most arguments, both parties confidently asserts their stances to be equally countering, neglecting of plans that works out for both. Unfortunately, no plans are perfect for both…

Yes,you cannot normally be 'half-dead', but your health is the best measurement. Through practical scales, your "livelihood" can be measured and doctors can predict how long you live for naturally. It seems almost more logical to consider things in scales: A measure of how alive something is.

Or how bright, how "good", how "helpful" for a community.

Why do we always assume our stances to be the best? We all strike for what we think are best, but is that really true?
How would you gauge how "real" anything really is, at any adjective to substitute with "real"?

Conversely, how "hard" would it be to have the "perfect" system, if not for "is it hard" or "it is hard, period"?

You mentioned education. How "hard" is education? What good will it do, and what in terms will everyone gain from it?

Revious

14:10

the question is really hard.. I could answer you that from a pratical point of view I think going near to a working well system would be easier than stating what is a perfect one.

For example I would change the laws to acting before a strong intervention is needed, with prevention.. but your questions are really really broader

@Unihedron: do you know what is confirmation bias?

Unihedron

Myside bias, yes. That's what I'm addressing.

Revious

@Unihedron I don't know how to create a perfect system.. but often I can see how much people are creating bad systems which could be easily fixed..

Here I asked "What limit for relativism?": psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-cognitive-distortions/0002153

I mean.. staying abstract is good.. and of course it's really hard to build a perfect system but when we come to look at the real world there are so many problems which are causing huge suffering (look also to the very indirect consequences) which could provide a valid motivation to solve those problem

but of course politics are mostly not interested.. and the people who would take advantages from that stuffs are ignorant.. they hardly wonder how the problems could be solved (they even don't realize that there is a problem)

this is not only my idea..

I've tried to ask on cogsci if most of people could benefit from counseling / psychoterapy

and if a neurotic partner can damage the other..

What do you think?

Unihedron

Hmm.

Vogel612's Shadow

Is it just me or are you ignoring your own confirmation bias @Revious?

Unihedron

Yet you're confidently asserting that the problem is solvable.

Revious

14:21

@Unihedron no, not solvable... I would say that we can make it smaller.. but start from observing the real world...

Unihedron

@Revious Is "the start" by observing the real world really helpful?

12 mins ago, by Unihedron

You mentioned education. How "hard" is education? What good will it do, and what in terms will everyone gain from it?

Revious

@Vogel612'sShadow :D I don't have the solution.. I don't know what would be better in all cases and I have also changed my ideas about what is better for any single case but I think an example can explain my idea better...

@Unihedron I think that it depends from what you mean.. can I make you an example on taxes instead of education?

Unihedron

Sure.

Revious

I don't have the solution but I think a lot, I'm not superficial.

in Italy one check by the financial police some years ago found that 50% of people which were having aid from the state in a school of rome where total tax evader

now... we could go to relativism and wonder if it's good to pay taxes or not.. and so on and so on..

but I see another point

I'm pretty sure that it's hard to argue that the consequences of italians while being sly is leading to something positive and advantagious..

on the shor term maybe it can appear not so an huge problem that someone is sly, but on the long term it contributed to destroy an economy

the italian state has 128 database to find tax evaders but after finding that someone is an evader you have to prove that in a tribunal

Vogel612's Shadow

which is how law works....

Revious

14:29

and there are political interests to avoid using those systems in an effective way

Vogel612's Shadow

since italian politics aren't really democratic anyways....

Revious

@Vogel612'sShadow yes.. but actually the whole system is not working..

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious incorrect

the system is working, it just doesn't work perfectly

Unihedron

^

Vogel612's Shadow

but perfection is unattainable when introducing the "human factor" or whatever you want to call it

point being, you have two choices: Change the system or accept it

changing the system requires a change in the people who "are" the system, a change in politicians and most of all "the people"

Unihedron

14:32

@Vogel612'sShadow false dichotomy

Revious

@Vogel612'sShadow (yes, you are right.. but it's not only a problem of democracy... it's our menthality joined with ignorance. If you would ask italians if they want to pay taxes they would say no! )

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unihedron how would you split up the choices?

Revious

However yes.. I understand what you are saying.. and I partially agree.. we have just some choices (2? 20?).. but what makes me angry is that it would be so easy to change stuffs when people would:

1) listen

2) be pragmatical

3) inform themself

4) speak in a constructive way

5) act

Unihedron

6) just give up

Revious

:D

Vogel612's Shadow

14:35

@Unihedron false assertion

Revious

it what happens to me when I try to change the system... but what you mean with being a better person?

Unihedron

@Vogel612'sShadow justify

Vogel612's Shadow

just because you gave up, you're not a better person

the premise does not justify this conclusion

Unihedron

status-approved

Revious

:D

but so now which is the point?

I mean.. I've made my monologue..

now I can listen..

Vogel612's Shadow

14:37

correcting my dichotomy: (1): trying to change the system, (2): not doing so, (3) trying to escape the system

Unihedron

I like your stance. It's critical and expresses what you're thinking very accurately.

Revious

@Unihedron thanks.. I think my problem is how I express when I get emotional...

Vogel612's Shadow

for the purpose of the discussion we can rule out 3, since the discussion would not be happening if we're running for 3

Unihedron

As for why people may not be willing to do that, you also have to take into account that not everyone comes for the same goals. Sometimes they just want to live on the edge, or tease people for entertainment. The Internet is full of weird things.

So I'm going to address the part about "listening". I like listening. I learn a lot from it. I even write to a blog and try to deliver messages to readers who care about what I think. It's magical.

Revious

@Unihedron it's very nice, I would also like to do something similar.. which is the blog's name?

Unihedron

14:40

Jack's Blog owned by a friend of mine. Later I set up feeds across chat rooms after getting the consensus that users are interested to have feeds items posted.

in RegEx - Regular Expressions on Stack Overflow Chat, yesterday, by Feeds

Jack's Blog » regex: Yet another side project

posted on December 01, 2014 by Unihedron

I’ve noticed a problem with most JSON parser libraries in Java, which is that the content are broken down eagerly without caching. Since the string objects comes through requests and get broken down pretty quickly at the end lots of String garbage is made. I want to write a JSON parser library that lazily retrieves corresponding … →

Stuff like that.

Revious

it's nice. I also like the shortness off the posts

Unihedron

room topic changed to Crypt of the Tavern: Spectator Lobby: Parties who are upset with other parties can take their behinds to a common area please, and slap each other with an assortment of fish. Then no bogus flags have to be dealt with. Also, all hail Brown. [attention] [brown] [care] [discussion] [feesh] [fish] [fishing] [reopen] [respect] [waffles] [yellow]

I will build a fishing bot game for y'all to enjoy your time in the Lobby while the people in the Tavern go haywire. Mmmk?

Vogel612's Shadow

lel...

Revious

@Unihedron :D

Unihedron

@Vogel612'sShadow Stack Exchange culture is weird. I'm surprised the many factions still hasn't went out of control yet.

Python just contacted me the other day since they're building a chat bot as well, and were interested in how my experiments on the websockets turned out.

I still need a hat.

Vogel612's Shadow

14:56

@Unihedron Top users: -> guy with 123 rep having asked a single question with the awesome title of "How can I make this C# method more generic"

Unihedron

:)

Vogel612's Shadow

facepalmx

Revious

15:17

@Unihedron there are factions on SE?

Unihedron

@Revious Every chat room is like their own faction... JavaScript people hate giving free code, some of them likes jQuery and some constantly bashes the technology. Some RegEx wizards comes from PHP, Perl, or even Java, and it's a quiet room but events happens and dialects are spelled... Python speaks Salad, and Android likes living.

And then there's TCL, and the TCL people likes playing video games.

Revious

What is TCL?

Unihedron

It's a subset of Tk. It stands for Tool Command Language.

chat.stackoverflow.com/rooms/46067/tcl

Some are more popular (like PHP), and some are full of flames (like Lounge<C++>)

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unihedron The JS room is also often quite hot..

Unihedron

@Vogel612'sShadow Well, duh. :P

Java is relatively quiet, it used to be the hit at around Java 6. Now everyone knows it sucks.

Vogel612's Shadow

15:24

Anyways, you can find your daily dose of drama in any chatroom ;)

Revious

@Vogel612'sShadow :D

Unihedron

Not regex ;)

The only on-topic chat room...

Revious

@Unihedron why SO chose to open chats? I mean they are lovely.. but some guys could think people could go to chat and ask there instead of opening a question

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious because people were chatting in comments...

Revious

I mean.. there were flames and fires when it was proposed?

Unihedron

15:26

From "Help Center > Privileges":

Revious

@Vogel612'sShadow :D ah ehehe

Unihedron

What is chat?

All sites have a real time web chat component, or as we like to call it, the "third place".

The third place is a term used in the concept of community building to refer to social surroundings separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. In his influential book The Great Good Place, Ray Oldenburg argues that third places are important for civil society, democracy, civic engagement, and establishing feelings of a sense of place.

Most needed are those ‘third places’ which lend a public balance to the increased privatization of home life. Third pla…

Vogel612's Shadow

obtw @Unihedron travis is not working out nicely ....

Unihedron

I realize...

(don't remind me..)

Revious

@Vogel612'sShadow travis?

Unihedron

15:28

@Revious CI

you'll know it if you're a programmer, otherwise it won't matter

Vogel612's Shadow

-> Continuous Integration

@Unihedron well duh! he says my PR can't be merged, because building fails...

Unihedron

Wow, really?

Revious

we use SVN, I've used also Serena Dimension and I don't love both of them..

@Vogel612'sShadow do you work together?

for SE?

Unihedron

Killed travis.

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious at the third place...

@Unihedron oups...

now I am responsible for the death of Travis???

Unihedron

15:31

No, I think Travis wants a YML file for the configuration. He's trying to compile and run this with Ruby.

Of course that's a failure... So I killed him. He will be missed.

~# sudo die

Revious

lol

Unihedron

@Vog ^

Revious

but you are working for SE?

Unihedron

@Revious We don't work for SE.

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious eeh no...

Unihedron

15:33

We build stuff together, though.

Vogel612's Shadow

do you see ♦ behind our names?

Revious

no..

Unihedron

All Stack Exchange developers has a diamond. Their employment is also disclosed in their profile.

Revious

@Unihedron that's nice

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unihedron umm... ermph...

how to tell you best..

Revious

15:34

now I understand the diamond

but you are collaborating with them?

Vogel612's Shadow

That wasn't planned to be merged in that state...

It needs some cleanup..

@Revious where did you get the idea?

Unihedron

frantically reverts

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unihedron not only devs, but also CM's...

Unihedron

@Revious The diamond is owned by developers, community managers, and moderators.

Vogel612's Shadow

I prefer to call CMs Community Managers (just as SE does IIRC), but all else equal that's about it, yeah

Jeff still got an honorary diamond IIRC...

Unihedron

15:36

status-completed-in-time

Revious

I always wonder on how is development at SE

Unihedron

frantically runs back to reverting the PR

@Revious me too, I'm too young for full time jobs though

Revious

@Unihedron how old are you? you said you work as dev since 18 years

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious jonhmchan.com/blog/2014/1/16/…

Unihedron

@Revious What? I'm 16 years old, where did I say I've been doing dev work for 18 years?

O-o

Revious

15:38

@Unihedron really??????

no.. you cannot be so mature at 16

Unihedron

hahaha nice way to go about it but no

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious tell me... how old am I?

hint: it's not that far from uni...

Unihedron

How old would you expect of me otherwise, if I hadn't told you I'm 16?

Revious

I would say you are both about 30 - 34 years

Unihedron

heh

Vogel612's Shadow

15:40

okay huge disappointment incoming: I am not even 20..

Revious

and that infinite is 14 :D (if she reads I know I will die)

Unihedron

sighs; quietly shakes head

Vogel612's Shadow

stargrees with uni

Revious

@Vogel612'sShadow are you saying really?

Unihedron

@Revious nods

Vogel612's Shadow

15:41

I have no reason to claim otherwise..

Revious

now I feel really old :p

Unihedron

What does young age mean anyway? I made stuff that's used by many people. I had freelance positions. I stay up late to finish code so I can run stuff / ship code / learn more.

ProgramFOX

I win. I'm 14. :P

Unihedron

^

Oh hi :)

ProgramFOX

Hi!

Vogel612's Shadow

15:42

And now I feel like I wasted the last 10 years of my life to being a kid... thanks @ProgramFOX

Unihedron

This is a chill out zone after a haywire session.

Hehe...

Revious

@ProgramFOX mmm... I'm 13 then :D

ProgramFOX

@Vogel612'sShadow Uhh... you're welcome? :P

Unihedron

Lemme see if I can find this quote...

Vogel612's Shadow

@ProgramFOX you almost made me spill my water over the whole screen!

ProgramFOX

15:44

Speaking about ages, the age field is missing on the new profile page layout. goes to feedback page

@Vogel612'sShadow Fine, then you literally surf the web.

Unihedron

@Pro what do you think about Jack? I've been thinking about him yesterday.

Vogel612's Shadow

@ProgramFOX luckily I got 2 screens here...

Revious

@ProgramFOX all the guys in tavern are working with se?

Vogel612's Shadow

@Revious a part of those with a ♦ ...

Unihedron

in HTML / CSS / WebDesign on Stack Overflow Chat, yesterday, by skibbi_bizzle

@Unihedron If you can solve that at 16, you will have proven that I have wasted my life

ProgramFOX

15:45

@Revious They are members of SE, but they do not work for SE.

Unihedron

in HTML / CSS / WebDesign on Stack Overflow Chat, yesterday, by Unihedron

Prepare to have your life wasted..

Nor "with"..

ProgramFOX

@Unihedron Well... he is a nice person, but there are some things I don't like (such as registering that .tk domain without I asked).

Unihedron

@ProgramFOX I disliked him at first, still does. He's such a unique character.

And by unique I mean I wish I have the powers to stab someone across the Net.

#rant

ProgramFOX

aha, the .tk domain now links to something else

What's rackcdn? It now links to that.

Unihedron

fraud

Please complete this short survey and to say “Thank You” we’ll give you a chance to win HD Streaming Movies®!

Anyone used Cloud9? Discovered it today at school.

ProgramFOX

15:48

Nope, never used it.

Gtg for 15 mins, cya!

Unihedron

seeya

Exams end tomorrow.

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unihedron you didn't revert yet, btw. you want me to go ahead?

Unihedron

@Vogel612'sShadow please do... this thing is killing me

ProgramFOX

is back

@Unihedron You're lucky, mine start tomorrow.

Unihedron

16:03

Welcome back!

@ProgramFOX Aww.

You better be prepared.

ProgramFOX

I am prepared.

Unihedron

Great!

Revious

@Unihedron what are you studying?

ProgramFOX

The annoying thing about exams is that my parents put a restriction on computer time during the exam period :/

Except on Friday. So Friday is awesome because it's also not necessary to study that day.

Unihedron

Ah. I wish my parents would do that. I don't even see them.

Revious

16:05

@ProgramFOX I can believe is annoying..

Unihedron

@Revious I take the programming, chemistry, and accounting classes

Revious

@Unihedron where do you live?

Unihedron

@Vog lol, same build

@Revious HKSAR

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unihedron sure same build...

ProgramFOX

@Unihedron Even if it's just 1 hour computer time? (even if you're already fully prepared)

Vogel612's Shadow

16:06

after all it's the "same" PR...

Unihedron

@ProgramFOX Well... An hour would be too much and I wouldn't survive.

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unihedron just don't merge it this time, kk? cuz rolling stuff back seems to be nontrivial with github involved...

Unihedron

ok but please add tags

Revious

Is there a picture of the people working in SE?

ProgramFOX

stackexchange.com/about/team

Unihedron

16:08

Marc Gravell looks handsome.

There's also SEMeetUp: twitter.com/search?q=semeetup

Revious

Josh is shog9?

ProgramFOX

yep

Revious

how old is him?

ProgramFOX

His profile says he's 34.

Unihedron

Good lad.

:|

ProgramFOX

16:14

What's that^?

Unihedron

Edu.Github

ProgramFOX

ah

Unihedron

Guess what I found today!

ProgramFOX

No idea.

Revious

@ProgramFOX we have the same age

Unihedron

16:15

github.com/skiwi2/GithubHookSEChatService

A spring MVC implementation of talking to SE chat..

ProgramFOX

cool!

Vogel612's Shadow

@Unihedron cough that's where I got mechanize from cough

Unihedron

@Vogel612'sShadow :O

Revious

16:29

now that I'm thinking.. Vogel is a german word

sprichst du Deutsch?

@Vogel612'sShadow

Vogel612's Shadow

Vogel612, Germany

2.9k 2 5 25

Revious

we are not so far away..

ProgramFOX

17:48

@Unihedron uh, well, let me take back my first opinion about him being nice:

in Teenage Programmers Chatroom on Stack Overflow Chat, 2 mins ago, by its_justjack

@ProgramFOX YES IT DOES! If you let me delete it, everything would be fine. NOW YOU HAVE GOT ME IN TROUBLE FOR YOUR 'FRAUD'!

in Teenage Programmers Chatroom on Stack Overflow Chat, 1 min ago, by its_justjack

Go away

enche

20:12

What is this chatroom for? A lot of these metas' chatrooms have pretty funky descriptions. Dunno which to go to when. author's note: I'm confused by a lot of stackexchange, I'm so sorry in advance

Transcript for

Crypt of the Tavern: Spectator Lobby