The future

7:01 PM

I guess this MSO question shares the topic of this room. Gets kind-of weird when you can't talk about what you're talking about

Rubiksmoose

Yup. Hopefully we'll all be able to talk freely soon.

Tinkeringbell

@ErikReinstateMonicA Hey I was reading that.... ugh. I kinda dislike not having mod powers everywhere somedays...

Stevoisiak

@Tinkeringbell Wouldn't the page still be readable if it was loaded?

M.A.R.

@ErikReinstateMonicA remember that one time where that guy did that thing and we were all like oh man! but he said that thing back making the situation worse and I went up and did that other thing and we were all like [spoiler redacted] about all of it but we forgot the day after.

Oh right, you don't. Neither do I. Squints

Tinkeringbell

@Stevoisiak Nope, it greyed out for me to the point that it wasn't readable...

Stevoisiak

7:06 PM

Ctrl+A (select all), Ctrl+C (copy), Open notepad, Ctrl+V (paste)

Columbia says Reinstate Monica

@M.A.R. wasn't that when Marklar went to Marklar to get some marklar for Marklar's marklar?

Tinkeringbell

@Stevoisiak Too late, closed the window already...

user102937

The paper to which it linked:

user102937

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10664-019-09685-x

M.A.R.

@ColumbiasaysReinstateMonica How do you remember?

Talks to his wrist in a menacing way

Columbia says Reinstate Monica

7:08 PM

@M.A.R. klar all Marklars have a good marklar to remember marklar.

user102937

Which, if SE is using as a basis for making any UI decisions, is really disturbing.

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

Well, that was a mistake.

Lesson learned

Tinkeringbell

Yes, it was. And glad to hear ;)

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

I honestly hoped it would be a valuable discussion on its own merits

Tinkeringbell

Wait a few days then.

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

7:13 PM

it will be a crapstorm at that point. reasoned discussion of how to get good data and make sure we're accurately measuring things, perhaps (gasp) including nonbinary issues... that will get lost

user102937

Discussing ideology is pointless. SE has made their standing very clear. Doesn't much matter how they came to those conclusions.

M.A.R.

FWIW, some folks lurk meta these days that never lurked meta. I'm skeptical if a polarizing issue such as . . . whatever that was can be discussed in its own merit unless it feels like business as usual in the meta.

Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey Ehh. Ideology perhaps not, data collection seems a prudent talking point though.

M.A.R.

So wait a few days. Like days in Saturn or something.

Tinkeringbell

@DeNovosupportsGoFundMonica I'd advise you to wait another few days more then ;) There will be a time when you can discuss these things without them being drowned out, I'm sure :)

user102937

7:15 PM

@Tinkeringbell Sure. We can debate the merits of that paper all day long, but do you really think SE is going to say "Gee, how misguided were we?"

Kevin B

yes, lets wait until it's all done and overwith to discuss it

Tinkeringbell

Ehh, lemme move rooms again for a sec?

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@RobertHarvey they might. David said that before becoming mute.

Tinkeringbell

← 15 messages moved from Tavern on the Meta

@RobertHarvey And... perhaps, perhaps not... There's been times where things like that have been done (I'm thinking joke threads?)

user102937

It would be a big lift, I think. SE has been talking about this since the Welcoming post, and thinking about it long before that.

Tinkeringbell

7:19 PM

Yep... but in times like this it requires communicating stuff just right. We were given a chance to help on that, and someone blew it :(

user102937

Well, those mods that are leaking stuff. If ever there was a use case for the "any reason" clause in the mod agreement, this would be it.

Rubiksmoose

@RobertHarvey FWIW, and I want to make this abundantly clear: members of SE have said that this was not at all a primary reason they made this change, it was very much a potential side-benefit.

Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey And yet, I hope we never find out. I need some sign right now that demoddings will never end up public ever again.

user58

The person they thought leaked the TL transcripts wasn't made public. This would seem to be the same.

Erik Reinstate MonicA

Did they have a real suspect, though? I imagine it's not that hard to cover your tracks.

Meta Andrew T.

7:29 PM

I dunno if I'm allowed to say it on here, but the leaked post was really just one-sided because it only quoted the question while there are many answers providing constructive feedback, and even a follow-up question also with constructive feedback...

user58

@ErikReinstateMonicA I don't remember exactly what they said, and I can't check, but they sounded like they had removed someone over it.

Columbia says Reinstate Monica

Do you suppose we will see an announcement soon over said removal?

Rubiksmoose

@MetaAndrewT. It was very one-sided in much more than one way.

user58

@ColumbiasaysReinstateMonica Doubt it. Highly doubt it.

Rubiksmoose

I would not count on any kind of announcement

Tinkeringbell

7:31 PM

10 mins ago, by Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey And yet, I hope we never find out. I need some sign right now that demoddings will never end up public ever again.

Can't stress that enough, personally...

Rubiksmoose

Very much agree.

Stevoisiak

If they did find out, it wouldn't be a public removal. Unless the mod themselves made it public

If not commenting on mod removals wasn't a policy before, I'm sure it is now

Erik Reinstate MonicA

The stupid thing is that now the gap between SE and the community is now likely even larger, if they can't trust the mods to keep stuff private

user102937

If the guy was smart, he bounced it off sixteen satellites and through a TOR account before he posted it.

user102937

[wonders if one can detect copy/paste in a browser]

user102937

7:34 PM

Oh, sorry. Person

user58

I've been on sites where you can't paste anything in the password field, IIRC

Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey Nah, don't worry. No woman would ever be this petty :P

user102937

Heh.

rene

Post spam on MSE for cheap satellites

M.A.R.

@user58 Half the sites where I've had to login, basically

Erik Reinstate MonicA

7:35 PM

@Tinkeringbell That sounds like a challenge! Unfortunately, I'm not a woman...

M.A.R.

@ErikReinstateMonicA Likely? Yes, kinda really wirklich likely.

I can be pretty

Tinkeringbell

Honestly though... things like 'guy/guys' work better to be at least perceived as gender-neutral if they aren't followed up with 'sorry, person' or 'and gal'. (I hate being the afterthought 'and gal' personally...)

user102937

That's the price you pay for having a gender policy.

user102937

It's going to happen. I've already caught myself a couple of times using he or (s)he before posting, only just remembering that neither is appropriate anymore.

M.A.R.

Still unsure it's a full-fledged policy unless it gets brought up

It's like that one law the lawyers have to consult books to find and appeal to

user102937

7:38 PM

All that hammering by corporate, and you still don't think it's official?

user102937

Hell, it was official before it was even published, as Monica can attest.

M.A.R.

Wait, so, what did I miss, about leaking TL messages, or is it not worth digging up?

Tinkeringbell

@RobertHarvey You can use either. You're just asked to not push back when someone edits things to 'they' if gender is indeed unknown.

M.A.R.

Because that seems to be the hot topic today

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. Not worth digging up and it was a Team's post.

M.A.R.

7:39 PM

@RobertHarvey I mean, practically, no one seems to be going around enforcing something like it (anything different from what it was before) unless someone makes a fuss

@Tinkeringbell OK, sure.

I dunno what that means though. Are there public teams?

Erik Reinstate MonicA

Afaik even then, a person can state their preferred pronoun, but if you're not addressing them, you can use the generic he if you want

The FAQ just says it's better not to

Meta Andrew T.

@M.A.R. private "public Teams", yeah..

M.A.R.

All I ever know about teams is to sometimes join and read Charcoal and it's so Charcoaly, people doing their normal Charcoal stuff.

user102937

@M.A.R. No, just a private Teams site for Mods. It's supposed to be private, anyway.

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. I don't think so. You need an invite into one. The moderators have their on Team, and that's definitely private.

M.A.R.

7:41 PM

status-fuss

Meta Andrew T.

well, just like another Teams™...

Rubiksmoose

@M.A.R. lol

Tinkeringbell

Ehh... there's a slight difference between addressing and 'talking about' that I feel I should point out here because I'd feel like a horrible mod otherwise: If you're addressing someone, you generally don't need third-person pronouns. If you're talking about someone, and know their pronouns, use those, not generic he (or at least don't get mad if your post is edited, and you're in trouble if mods find out you knew but were avoiding the correct ones deliberately).

That's how I took the changes, anyways...

Anyhow... 'focus on behaviour, not specific users' + a form of gender neutral writing being to change single for plural should get you a long way ;)

M.A.R.

But of course, singular "they" being an exception, if I tell someone my pronoun is "she" and they keep referring to me as "he", there's already enough things wrong with that discussion

Tinkeringbell

Yep :)

M.A.R.

7:48 PM

But eh, pretty sure this has been said, explored, exploited a bajillion times already

So let's speculate about how the close vote banner changes will shape curator/mod and user behavior on SO

Or . . . whatever else this looking to the future thing is in this room

Erik Reinstate MonicA

Only the secret fuss thing here ;)

M.A.R.

OMG OMG OMG will John Wick die

Or is Keanu Reeves immortal

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. gazes into crystal 8-ball "Eventually"

M.A.R.

He ages like an elf, that's for sure

Meta Andrew T.

wow, too future for me...

Erik Reinstate MonicA

7:50 PM

@Tinkeringbell I choose to believe that's not true

M.A.R.

@Tinkeringbell Is that like John Wick 7

Tinkeringbell

@M.A.R. I dunno, I used an 8 ball.

Rubiksmoose

Tinkeringbell

Can we go to Friday drinks then? :D

I'm at a point where I either want alcohol, or a book, blanket and too much comfort food.

Rubiksmoose

@Tinkeringbell Yes please!

Tinkeringbell

7:55 PM

I might actually just go do that. Play nice everyone :)

Rubiksmoose

have fun :)

Rubiksmoose

8:08 PM

room topic changed to Room for a future discussion ;): The future is here [1.21gigawatts] [chat] [discussion]

M.A.R.

🚀

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

8:33 PM

Incidentally, if I wasn't explicit before, I apologize for posts referencing something that wasn't supposed to be public. It may be too late for this, but on reflection, it would probably have been better to roll this change out without any reference to gender.

I may have made that less likely.

It would, though, be nice, to use the SO developer survey gender data to validate a gender inference algorithm (that could then be applied to questions like this), but I suppose that's not something most users are going to care about.

Stevoisiak

The rule I try to follow on meta is, am I asking a question to learn or discuss something, or am I posting with a pre-determined answer or outcome in mind?

Apologies if that sounds accusatory

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

8:50 PM

@Stevoisiak it didn't

Stevoisiak

Right now, I think meta has a lot of posts where the response is secondary to the question itself

Stevoisiak

9:07 PM

Huh. Why doesn't this room show up on the active rooms list?

Rubiksmoose

@Stevoisiak It does for me at least.

It's all the way on the right.

(for me)

Stevoisiak

Strange. It's not there for me

Rubiksmoose

@Stevoisiak Ah nvm. I was looking at active inside favorites

I don't see it either.

But I feel like I've had that happen recently with other rooms as well.

M.A.R.

Stevoisiak

I'd report that as a bug, but I'm not sure I want to draw attention to this room

M.A.R.

9:12 PM

I was exploring ancient alie . . . ancient memes earlier today

Kevin B

caching

Stevoisiak

If I sort by recently created rooms, the most recent one is from 2019-10-11

So nearly a month old

Kevin B

or something more malicious

Stevoisiak

I hope that's not how people would take it if I posted that to meta

Kevin B

well, it's either caching, a bug, or a flag that hides it from the active list

i'd assume caching at this point

Rubiksmoose

9:22 PM

oh hey, I see it now.

on page 2

Kevin B

so it's a sorting thing

Stevoisiak

Strange

rene

@Stevoisiak because I started it as a invite user room

Kevin B

A

@rene is most likely right, the room started as a "Room for [User A] and [User B]" and those appear after ordinary rooms (i.e. rooms created by "create a new room" button) by design. — Shadow The Princess Wizard Sep 3 '17 at 22:25

lol

ahhhhhhhhh

9:30 PM

lol

This is why you always assume good intent. :P

David A

10:10 PM

As a non-moderator, I have the luxury of installing that "ignore user" plugin and blocking anyone who could get me in trouble.

Kevin B

what does the plugin do that ignoring a user doesn't?

I generally just ignore people i find annoying... but i always end up showing their posts

David A

10:25 PM

Basically making their stuff not appear. You can't reply to people who don't show up.

It used to be that we weren't supposed to think about the people behind questions, answers, and comments. Now it seems like we are. When things become personal, tools like this become useful.

Kevin B

Ah, so it's for the QA site

samcarter

11:33 PM

@DavidA Which plugin do you use? I am desperately looking for a good replacement for one which was broken by the new site design

David A

@samcarter Haven't tried it yet, but there are elements that link to users by ID, which means that those can be selected.

samcarter

@DavidA Ah, so more a theoretical plugin :)

Transcript for