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12:24 AM
Q: Ignore Users Script

SampsonIMPORTANT - Read before using... This script is not meant to be a solution for bad behavior on Stack Overflow. If you feel somebody is violating the rules of this site, please contact the proper authorities (team@stackoverflow.com). Remove any instance of a particular user or group of users f...

4 hours later…
4:53 AM
@DeNovosupportsGoFundMonica They did use this data (both SE and other users) but all agree its not very accurate. For instance, I put "not disclosed" or "nan" (whatever the non-answer was) simply because I don't disclose that and I definitely have a defined gender.
(if you want the TLDR; it was "the results were within a margin of error of what one finds in the Tech industry itself" which, IMO, makes it less a question of "how can SO be more welcoming" as the general problem of "how can tech be more welcoming"?....which is an interesting topic of research but outside my focus)
4 hours later…
8:26 AM
@Zoethetransgirl nope, luckily hard deletion was used, so the post is not readable even to 10k users - they removed the history.
@Catija just a quick reminder: when the next data dump is released, check that the post is not viewable there. I don't know how the dump is generated, but since lately we haven't been very lucky... Thought it was wort to point that out even if my fear makes no sense.
Just like SEDE I assume it is taken as a snapshot from the backup that is run on Sunday. It would only be a problem if it was posted just before the backup and then redacted after it.
I think I recall only one case where SEDE was sanitized somewhere midweek for a specific post.
8:49 AM
@Hitodama archived as in archive.org
It's not restricted by SE deletion, so it's still visible there.
A screenshot also hit Reddit
proliferating leaks is not really fair
@Zoethetransgirl in cases like this, archive.org CAN be contacted and generally they WILL remove the content. And it seems someone already did that.
sadly, this probably won't stop proliferation of screenshots.
9:21 AM
...... ok, nope, I was wrong. Seems it still works. And anyway, someone asked a meta question about it, and the question includes both a link to the archive and the original url of the question.
So, even if someone removed the archived version now, the question title already gives out the proposed change.
That said.... if that is the change...
"We are all going to die! The gates of hell will open and the dark spawn of Yog Sothoth will cover the earth"
^ was someone actually expecting anyone to react like that? Seriously?
right now, I will agree that this leak was useless at best, a deliberate attempt at stiring more drama at worst.
@Hitodama Yes.
That said.... I would not dismiss it completely.
Or, to be more precise. I wouldn't dismiss the fact that someone wanted to do that.
You have a problem there, and the problem is not that someone leaked private info.
the problem is that even you (as in: the company and the moderators) now have internal grudges and fighting, and this incident is only an effect of the problem.
Again, this is just my humble suggestion, but you will have to work on solving those grudges.
@Hitodama yeh, but it's out there now. It's nearly impossible to truly remove something from the net
At this moment in time anything that is "sanctioned" from SE.inc is (ab)used to cause a drama.
Sabotaging the trust that the company has (had?) for the moderators doesn't help with those grudges.
9:32 AM
@rene sure, but as I said that is the effect, not the cause
Also, no repro. It's still in the archive
@Hitodama true that.
9:53 AM
@Hitodama Thats the crux of this and why it is self defeating
we all wanted for SE to include people in the decision making process more
well now anything they share with mods has to be treated as almost public, cause the leaks will keep coming
@mag to be fair, the fact that some of the mods "hate" the company is only a sub set of the larger problem that some users "hate" the company.
And that is also just one side of the coin.
The users "hate" the company.
But is also true that in a way the company "hates" the users
I mean... strong words has been said. On both sides.
and that only strengthen the grudge
@ShadowThePrincessWizard Possibly.
We don't have the full details
What details are needed? It's super simple: questions upvote will be worth +10 (again) instead of +5 and the change will be retroactive.
(i.e. global rep recalc to all users)
Forget about Twitter.... forget about Meta... forget about Blog... new channel to announce changes is leaked private Teams discussions. lol
@ShadowThePrincessWizard ...
I just describe the reality.
10:03 AM
Someone just basically stabbed every other mod, and all the CMs who are actually on our side in the back.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I wonder if we'll get retroactive repcap badges too
To be honest, I'm not even angry at SE for not telling about the change.
*sigh* There was going to be an official announcement a bit later on, I'm sure, but the company wanted to keep moderators in the loop a bit earlier than most users. Someone decided to sabotage that.
I can't even say the rest of the stuff in question because UNLIKE SOME PEOPLE I DO NOT LEAK CONFIDENCIAL INFORMATION
Keeping moderators in the loop a bit earlier is a good thing.
10:04 AM
@user58 I'm 1000% sure they wasn't going to be any announcement. Now that it's leaked there might be.
Cause I'm not a complete and utter pillock who clearly can't think ahead.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I'm 100% sure there was going to be.
@JourneymanGeek you don't.. but it's already leaked. :)
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I'm literally going "But... wait... but..."
It's like trying to keep the water in the bucket when there's a big hole in it.
10:05 AM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard well, you got baited by the one-sided leak. Really, really baited.
We needed the company to make efforts in working with the community more - which is what this was.
Yes, it was with the moderators. That's still the community. Bear with me.
Again, I'm not angry. Others will be, sure. But making changes out of the blue without consulting the users is a fact, for long time.
See... they were consulting the users.
@ShadowThePrincessWizard mods are not users?
10:07 AM
Moderators are users.
@MetaAndrewT. they're small part of the users, and are not allowed to discuss those things
They are trusted users who should be expected to be able to give constructive feedback to the company instead of the overwhelming deluge they get on Meta.
So sure, mods can say "Something good is coming at some point/soon".... and that's it.
Compare a hundred people giving feedback, from a wide selection of the different sites around the network, to a thousand people shouting in your ears.
And after the change happens, the mods can tell "Oh, yeah, that was the good thing that was mentioned".
10:08 AM
How long do you think that needs to continue?
And I'm disappointed, because this is the second time someone has decided to betray the trust placed in them as a moderator on the network, and that is only going to hurt things moving forward.
Anyway, if the company really wanted to announce it to everyone and get feedback, one week is hardly enough. One month in the very least, to get actual feedback.
This whole thing is pure shit for us all by the way. SE was trying, actually trying with this, to improve on their mistakes. Could they have been doing it better? Probably. But we can't just indiscriminately kick them for anything. If we react to steps in the right direction with "not good enough" over and over we just validate the assumption that we can't be reasoned with
@rene what? I am not sure I understand the question... do you mean the grudge or discussing about this?
I really hoped we were better then that
10:11 AM
@mag you talk about the change itself, or about them intending to announce the change by themselves?
the fact that they shared it and solicited feedback beforehand
the grudge
@ShadowThePrincessWizard You know the mods
and how damned annoyingly stubborn we are
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I guess SE users are really afraid of any changes now? Looks like those ranters were actually right, this community resists changes.
So even of this was a leak, this is literally just half the story
10:16 AM
@user58 as evidenced by the dismissal of Monica?
@JAD good point. Mod that express a wrong opinion is likely going to be removed, so...
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I doubt that will happen again so soon
until people will stop.
Yep, I know, it is a bad answer.
Basically I am saying that it will continue until it ends.
Well, it's between the mods and SE.
Very smart, right?
but... actually that is.
10:18 AM
@ShadowThePrincessWizard and practicallly and fundamentally we're supposed to represent our users
@JourneymanGeek I'm not sure. I expect the mod who leaked it will be removed.
And possibly shamed too.
if they can be identified
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I don't think anyone would disagree there.
But quietly
But erf
10:19 AM
That's would be 180 degrees change.
If someone will find a magical way to "set the clock back to day one" this will probably end suddenly as it started.
Shadow, has it occurred to you that this might be a single moderator taking that change way out of context, or deliberately trying to cause harm?
@ShadowThePrincessWizard I think we'd insist on it for most part
If I found out who leaked it I will be very upset, because that should not be public.
People are jumping to conclusions again
10:19 AM
if not, some angry users will continue to direct their anger on the staff....
Stop that
the staff will reply with frustration....
You're more intelligent than that.
make some new mishap or post some new angry message on twitter/meta/anywhere
more people will get angry and so on.
I don't think that the change got anything to do with gender, that's bullshit, agreed. But still, it's a major change that they were going to make without getting feedback from the users of the network.
10:21 AM
So, kittens...
Oh please
Who cares about rep
And users need to get over the fact that they don't get a say in everything.
There's nothing wrong to hate the company, the CM, their policy/behavior, or anything else, but to backstab them? That's the lowest standard...
@ShadowThePrincessWizard So, lets consider
You have a whistleblower so brave they possibly copy pasted the contents of what should be a private post, possibly hid their tracks, and intentionally mangled their spelling
providing no other context.
Does this seem like a particularly trustworthy person?
Or someone trying to attract more drama and mouthbreating internet trolls from the dark corners of the internet because they clearly find that's better than trying to deal with things in the open like we often do.
10:26 AM
everyone is the hero of their own story
maybe the leaking person covered themselves to remain anonymous so they can keep leaking
They clearly are not going to make a stand.
sowing fear and discord is a kind of stand, albeit not a public one
Or handle the hundreds of flags that they might cause
but I get and agree with what you mean, it is rather cowardly and counterproductive
Or even get a result that they intended.
10:28 AM
maybe the meta-goal of this person is to deteriorate the relationship between company and community further because they believe the company deserves it, and the way they go about pursuing that is stirring the maximum amount of drama
or maybe scorched earth type tactics
Well, we might never know
they just made my 3 day break more "interesting"
Why was this question about "Why was this question about retroactively changing the vote values deleted?" deleted?
@Cerbrus Because all network moderators are massively angry right now. Expect more irrational moderation in the future.
I am literally expecting that.
10:29 AM
@Tinkeringbell Not a serious question :P
expect Twitch Plays SE Moderation...
Yanno? I can handle a few hundred flags in a week
Stuff like this is what makes me feel like I'd burn out.
@Cerbrus Only a half serious answer too...
make no mistake leaking that was not a slight against SE
Stuff like this is why I didn't enter in mod elections after the one I didn't get through
10:31 AM
it was a slight against the bit of trust moderators still have with SE
@Cerbrus I think meta is important
Oh absolutely
Some users (including higher power levels) just need to get over themselves, imo.
But it literally feels like I'm dog paddling against two strong currents.
Megatroll vs The Pup
@djsmiley2k-CoW give me an ankle to bite, and I'd bring down an elephant.
10:34 AM
@JourneymanGeek that might be the case, yes.
11:05 AM
@Hitodama the change makes sense of itself, though characterising the previous 9/10 years as an experiment is also a bit disingenuous
@StopHarmingMonica I mean that I wouldn't really be worried about some users getting more rep, especially on low traffic sites.
Had the change been something like "They are adding microtransactions to buy rep points with real world money".... that would be worrisome. But this?
The other issue is it's again "we're making this change, this is how you answer questions about it" instead of "we might do this, what do you think?"
@StopHarmingMonica Nope. That's false information. It's not 'we're making the change, this is how you answer questions about it'.
the quoted section is not a quote then?
the whole thing is a fabrication, and there will be a "we might do this, what do you think" post on Meta instead?
@StopHarmingMonica are you sure it has been framed that way? From what I know, the only quoted part is a "since you mod are bound to be getting lot of question in the next days, lets try to build some guidance on what could be asked BEFORE this happens so we don't come out unprepared again"
11:12 AM
@StopHarmingMonica That's false too.
The post was made so moderators could provide input on the changes and help SE communicate these changes once they would be made.
and for what I know, there could have been talking in mod only room before, other questions that weren't leaked and so on.
So it's not 'here's how you answer questions about it'. It's 'what do you need from us to answer questions you expect you might get'.
I've seen the leak on Reddit. The first line of the quoted section is "On <date> we are changing <X>"
The only thing that was leaked is basically the preface of an "How to handle this 101" handbook to help the mods.
1 min ago, by Hitodama
and for what I know, there could have been talking in mod only room before, other questions that weren't leaked and so on.
So it's announcing a non-negotiable change, instead of asking (in public) what the community thinks and being open to adjusting the plan.
11:15 AM
And this is why we can't have nice things.
@Tinkeringbell are you saying that quote is a lie?
Do I need to?
@Tinkeringbell if you're accusing me of making false statements, yes
@Tinkeringbell You sorta do, yeah. At this point, you're shooting down the leak and @StopHarmingMonica but you aren't committing to saying that leak is false, from what I can see.
@StopHarmingMonica Then yes. Your statement that the leaked stuff was made to tell us how to answer questions about it is false.
I've explained that.
11:22 AM
@StopHarmingMonica could you clarify how you believe the changes make sense?

@Script47 without saying what they are?
@StopHarmingMonica is there really something to hide at this point? The leak hit MSE twice (four times if you count the questions regarding it) and it has hit Reddit. I'm sure everyone in this room knows about it.
Doesn't mean we should put all of it in here, so anyone that doesn't know yet can find it too...
Propagating leaks isn't nice.
Find each other somewhere more private if you both know what you're talking about and want to talk about it even more without being vague... That's the best advice I can give.
I agree with the reasoning about misplaced incentives and comparative difficulty vs reward
@StopHarmingMonica that's exactly what I'd disagree with. I think the reward of answering should be higher because it requires more of an effort. Anybody can get stumped by an issue and post a question but that not everybody can find a (good) fix for the issue. Therefore the rewards should be higher for answering.
11:29 AM
@Script47 yet I see considerably more good answers than good questions, so it must be harder to produce the latter
that could just be confirmation bias though
@StopHarmingMonica I'd say the reason you see fewer good questions is because majority of the topics have been covered extensively and most people don't know how to pose a good question (not an insult).
11:46 AM
So, let's say... the vote value will be changed as per leak, will you be mad?
"mad", no. I'd definitely make my views be known though, that is, I'm very much against it because it doesn't make much sense.
Just as others who feel that +5 vs +10 is unfair (and I'm impartial), but sure, agree to disagree :)
I'd be willing to concede that it is unfair if a valid argument is provided. As I stated that the effort needed to post a (good) answer is much greater than to post a (good) question therefore the rewards shouldn't be the same.
2 hours later…
2:00 PM
I decided against starting the question with "for no reason at all"
(and if you don't get it, it is a reference to Castlevania 2)
@Hitodama It is?
Do I think?
And therefore do I exist?
@Script47 That really isn't true at all. Or, it can be, sometimes, but certainly not always. If I post a question, I need to do my research, actually investigate the issue, then collect my thoughts, write it out clearly, show that research. It isn't easy. Sometimes I need to work a lot for answers, but very often it's stuff I know off the top of my head and can post an answer in a couple of minutes.
Asking, on the other hand, often requires more effort, more research etc.
Most importantly, answers cannot exist without questions. They're the seed. You could have the best experts in the world but they'd be useless without good questions to answer.
I find a great question is harder than a great answer.
Honestly, I think that asking a good question is sometimes harder than a good answer.
2:11 PM
Often you already have the information on hand for the latter. For the former you're building from... well, you had to ask the question right?
I'm not sure how that applies to technical sites but on RPG it's definitely true at times.
@Rubiksmoose probably just as true for technical sites
Sometimes, the greatest question is a question that is so fully researched that it almost doesn't give a chance to be answered...
@MetaAndrewT. funny that
I think it's comparing Apples with oranges. Or Samsungs
Both can be difficult for different reasons
2:12 PM
@MetaAndrewT. sometimes there's still no answer even when you do
@MetaAndrewT. No that just means you answered your own question and post it anyway
@Rubiksmoose I find it's very true on technical sites. For one thing, since I'm often at least familiar with the technical field I'm asking about, if I can't figure it out and need to ask, that usually means I've already put in a lot of effort.
And for recreational sites... glance at Puzzle.SE... great solutions won't exist without great puzzles ;p
4 mins ago, by terdon
Most importantly, answers cannot exist without questions. They're the seed. You could have the best experts in the world but they'd be useless without good questions to answer.
This. Everything we do here starts from questions.
So treating questions as somehow less important is just strange.
@terdon That makes sense.
2:17 PM
@terdon True, but it's also that I don't always upvote a question I answer...
true, true. Although I admit I usually do. if I found the question interesting enough to answer, it is usually worth an upvote. Not always though, no.
@MetaAndrewT. Conversely, new OPs can't upvote answers, since they don't have enough rep... unless several answerers (or interested bystanders) upvote the question.
Another benefit of giving new OPs more rep is that it'll make it easier to invite them to chat. Quite often, they need to have a dialogue to fully understand how to solve their problem. True, you can have a bit of dialogue in comments, but that's limited & messy.
If good questions were easier to write we'd see more of them. OTOH, doubling the rep on question votes won't magically give OPs the ability to write good questions.
@PM2Ring they can comment on their own posts, but if they get moved to chat they can't go with them?
@StopHarmingMonica Yes, they can talk in a chat room created by converting comments on their question.
And thanks goodness for that.
2:28 PM
But only mods can do that
@StopHarmingMonica Well, not entirely.
But that's not the same as inviting them to an existing chatroom with a pool of expert regulars.
@StopHarmingMonica It happens semi-automatically if the comment trail becomes too large. You get the option of "Would you like to move this conversation to chat?"
@PM2Ring And it has to meet some algorithm as well. Eg it is more likely to be triggered by just two users in my experience and adding a third person into the mix means the comments have to be longer.
@Rubiksmoose Yes. And even if only 2 people are involved you can sometimes go back & forth for quite a while without the chat thing kicking in. It's a bit of a mystery...
@terdon right, and what you've described there is nothing special, or rather, it shouldn't be. You should be expected to research, investigate the issue, and present your thoughts in a coherent manner. At the end of the day, the reputation you gain as result of a question is an added bonus and compensation for you for providing a quality Q in the Q&A but what the asker actually wants is want an answer.
Contrast that with the answerer, they have to firstly understand correctly the context and issue, thereafter they need to formulate the answer just like the asker did as you explained. Their compensation surely needs to be greater than that of the asker, no?
2:38 PM
We should just get rid of compensation at all...
Or you know, apply your logic for questions (they want an answer) to answers too (they want a question to answer)
In the end, it's fake internet points.
@Tinkeringbell I dunno, I think what made SO successful among other reasons was its gamification. At the same time, it has been described as the factor that is bringing SO its downfall. Catch-22 it seems.
It is a fact that across the system answers are more likely to get upvotes than questions are. That's partly because answerers have had a lot of practice writing answers & are more familiar wirh the SE system. But partly it's because we get a lot of questions from low rep OPs who have zero desire to contribute to SE, they just want their question answered.
@PM2Ring I'd twist that another way though
People are actually looking for answers.
@Script47 I don't see why. As I said, it often takes more effort to write a good question than to write a good answer. And it almost always takes as much for one as for the other. Good questions are rare. I don't see any reason at all to reward one more than the other.
The act of asking a question is pointless, without an answer. No one looks for a question
People seek answers.
2:43 PM
@JourneymanGeek Yep! I made an account on SO because I saw a helpful answer that I wanted to upvote.
Spoiler: doesn't work if you have no rep.
I've sometimes said, answers on SE aren't free. You pay for good answers by writing a good question.
@JourneymanGeek Sure, but they can't exist without questions. So I really don't see how one can be more important than the other when neither can exist alone.
@terdon the reason is that the questioner gets their answer and some rep as I mentioned.
Or, rather, neither is useful alone.
@PM2Ring I occationally find answers before I ask a question ;p
2:44 PM
@Script47 But why get less rep? We give rep to make this a game and to indicate useful content. Well, questions should be as much fun as answers and good questions also need to stand out, just as much as good answers.
If you really feel there's answers that are so much better than questions, you can always put up a bounty.
Meh. I don't see any reason not to give the same rep to all. Both askers and answerers are doing the same thing: they are providing content for the site. Both are needed for a functioning site, so both should get the same reward.
@terdon more that that's why they get upvoted more ;p
I was using SO for a couple of years before I joined. I found lots of good answers via Google, I didn't need to ask my own questions. I eventually joined, not because I needed to ask a question, but because I wanted to contribute by writing answers, to pay forward the system that had helped me so much.
@terdon I'm not sure if you're just missing my point but the reward for the questioner is the answer and the bonus rep. The questioner needs the help that's why they're asking, no one is obligated to answer hence you get a greater reward for answering successfully.
2:48 PM
No one is obligated to answer... so why should anyone that does get a higher fake internet reward?
Are you saying fake internet points should make up for the discrepancy between getting help vs providing help?
Because of that reason exactly, you aren't obligated to answer but you did so, and you did so successfully.
Where no one is obliged to get help, and no one is obliged to provide help?
You aren't obligated to ask either.
But you did so, and you did so successfully.
No you aren't, but you did so because you needed the help. There is a reason.
Not every question is asked for that reason though.
@Script47 I hear you, I just don't agree. We don't want people to ask just to get their answer. In fact, that's the least important part of it. What we want, is to collect useful content. So a well written, well researched question that attracts multiple, useful answers is extremely important. That is what we want to reward. I can ask a question and be "rewarded" by getting an answer. What we want is the extra reward, the incentive that will make you ask a good question.
2:50 PM
A year or so ago, one Python room regular, sick of the flood of low quality questions, quipped that question asking should be a privilege, requiring 1000 rep. ;) Of course that'd never work, but it'd be nice if more OPs put in the effort to investigate how the site works, and what a good question should look like, before posting.
One small example would be self-answered questions.
Another would be questions asked in (private) beta: They also serve to create a site, community, determine scope.
@Tinkeringbell right, so self-answered questions still include a problem that someone faced, no? So I couldn't do X. Instead of just asking how to do X, I went and figured out that I need to do Y before X, so surely you should be compensated more for knowing how?
There are questions that I already know the answer, and there are questions that make me do research and learning more to answer the question.
@Script47 I really think this insistence to call fake internet points 'compensation' is going too far, to be honest.
Isn't this how the real world works? You get paid for what you know, no? The old quote comes to mind: 'You don’t pay the plumber for banging on the pipe. You pay him for knowing where to bang.'
2:54 PM
@Script47 reputation has no real value ;p
Yeah but equating fake internet point to real life payment is not a good equation. If I don't pay the plumber, I'm in trouble. If I don't thank the person recommending me said plumber, I'm going to have to face social consequences. If I don't upvote a question or answer here, there's neither.
@Script47 Why? You keep saying "surely" but I really don't see it. Your knowledge is useless on a Q&A site if there are no questions. So I don't see any reason to reward you more for knowing how.
I'm well aware of that, compensation doesn't only concern itself with money, yes, generally it is, but it isn't exclusive to that.
I maybe get paid for what I know, but I also thank the one who makes the request?
You're not rewarded for knowing stuff, anyway. On SE, you are rewarded by the site for providing useful content to the site.
If that content is an answer or a question isn't relevant: it's all content and it all makes the site a more useful place.
2:56 PM
@terdon what? The answers (a part of the content) are the things that people know.
And unless you only want to see self-answered questions, the questions are content that makes the site just as much more useful as just having people around that know things.
@Script47 Yes, but the content is the point. Rep is awarded for increasing the amount of useful content on the site. You could even argue that a good question is far more important than even the best answer since the question is what caused the great answer to be posted in the first place and a great question can result in multiple great answers whereas a great answer will only ever be alone and can't bring anything else in.
I have no issue with self-answered questions if they are informative.
So questions are actually more important for content generation since they're have one-to-many relationship with answers.
Also, the premise that 'these are things that people know' is a bit flawed, there's plenty of questions where I looked stuff up before answering something.
2:59 PM
Of course. I've looked up loads and have learned an enormous amount by answering questions. Which is yet another reason why questions are important.
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