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12:04 AM
that's the keepalive for when nothing is happening
you're expected to send hb back
 
poor websocket
crying out to me and I'm ignoring him
 
 
5 hours later…
5:03 AM
May 19th, drama free day. I just created this day. Everyone remember, May 19th, the no drama day. Happy close voting, sock chasing, and try to not make such a big deal about the errors moderators make today.
 
 
1 hour later…
these are simultaneously created users
userIds:- 260746, 260747. Both putting same kind of spams on site.
 
6:53 AM
morning!
 
7:06 AM
morning!
 
morning!
 
people not skipping stuff they have no clue about?
 
Oh You wrecked the train...
 
It's been proposed again @Laszlo
 
I know right, and I approved it.
but still, 3/3 rejection for a valid edit.
 
7:10 AM
@LaszloPapp No, we do everything for rep...
 
@LaszloPapp the comment could've been much better
 
Skip doesn't give rep...so....
 
@rene: pardon? What rep does it give to reject an edit?
@JanDvorak: eh? There was a pretty good comment under my answer.
 
@LaszloPapp sorry, badge...
 
@LaszloPapp Such an edit has more chance if the comment on the edit mentions for example a discussion in the comments on the answer.
 
7:12 AM
It should be natural to check the comments for such a logical change.
 
@LaszloPapp post comments don't show within the review. I mean the edit commment.
 
so what? You can easily go to them.
@rene: one of them already had gold badge...
 
@LaszloPapp the purpose of edit comments is to point out why the edit is valid. Reviewers don't have the time to check every suggestion that miiiight be valid.
 
yeah, robo-reviewing ftw
they do not have time to read stuff
if they do not have time to make a proper review, they should skip it
they should check the comment always when there is a logical change.
I do not think this has to be replicated.
 
@LaszloPapp whom are you scolding now? The robo-approvers, or those who fight robo-approvers by requiring people to tell them where to look before they look there?
 
7:16 AM
We trained those reviewers to not approve suggest edits in code blocks....add that to the fact that not that many users will use a filter on their favorite tag you end up with rejected edits. It is all part of the ignorant bunch of people handling that doomed queue.
 
robo-reviewers suck ...
if you cannot do a proper review, just do not do it
 
I can't agree more...
 
@LaszloPapp then robo-approvers win
 
it does not matter who win...
 
then I'm out
 
7:17 AM
you cannot reject valid edits to avoid "robo-approvers".
again, if an edit requires a bit of understanding, then it does.
if you do not have time to grasp it, fair enough, skip it.
 
what if you just posted a decent edit comment instead? What do you think they are for?
 
I do not follow
it requires full understanding of the question, answers, and comments
you would really like to duplicate all?!
 
not necessarily duplicate, point to
 
even if it was possible (it is not due to the size limit), it would be silly.
the suggested edit already points to the thread automatically. I do not get your point, sorry.
 
there's no automatic "read the comment thread"
 
7:20 AM
if someone does a logical change, you will not check all the history to approve it if you cannot justify its validity off-hand?!
that I call robo-reviewer.
 
you are wasting reviewers' time if you don't tell them what to look at, forcing them to either look at everything (and missing the chance to reject everytime) or to reject everything (and getting called robots by you)
 
what would have happened if I do not realize this? A bug would have stayed in the code, fun ....
you are not getting the point.
you cannot replicate a whole thread in comment
what comment would you make? The only authoritative source is the thread.
 
"look at the answer comments for explanation" should suffice.
 
It is not wasting their time.
if they do not have time, they should skip it.
they should not do something for which they do not have time.
no, that would not suffice for me.
it would be useless noise since that is the default action, and perhaps even the question, not just comments.
I do not see any value added by such a comment.
 
@LaszloPapp it's not.
 
7:25 AM
morning! <-- Dutch train service, so still valid.
 
morning!
 
morning!
 
@MorixDev: great, and thanks for the suggested edit. Unfortunately, there are way too many robo-reviewers on Stack Overflow, hence the ignorant rejection, but I approved the second suggested edit. Thanks again, and happy you got it working. — Laszlo Papp 5 secs ago
 
Mat
morning! yes you've just got up at 4am for nothing 'coz we're on strike! have a nice day! <- French train service. Invalid.
 
7:31 AM
Do they still announce those in France @Mat? Or do they just tell you when the are running?
 
@LaszloPapp please raise or find a meta post supporting your claim that reviewers should check the comments by default.
 
it is called sanity
 
what is the edit comment there for, then?
 
Mat
Big ones are announced (24h in advance at least in theory). But you still get surprises (esp. local ones, usually after safety incidents), @Bart.
 
please provide some proof that you do not jump on broken glass pieces.
 
@LaszloPapp "they should not do something for which they do not have time." - ROTFL. I assume that could be said for voting, too. You saw how that "discussion" ended.
 
yes. :(
I am peeing againts the wind again :(
 
you are attacking reviewers who don't review the way you like
that is rude
 
yeah, I guess it is rude to ask for quality review or none.
Perhaps, it is the time to bring up the idea of a new suggested edit....
for logical changes, i.e. only people with at least silver badge or the answer author can only review it.
experience shows "reviewers" get in the way of fixing bugs.
 
You are welcome to post an official feature request
 
7:45 AM
Looks like @JanDvorak has spam Tourette's.
 
let us take a look at the track record in the tag for those reviewers...
 
@JanDvorak Is that the same account?
 
@rene I don't track those; should I?
 
yeah, right, as I suspected... no any track record for that tag for which they rejected a valid bug fix....
 
@JanDvorak I always wonder if they reuse an account or create new ones constantly..
 
Mat
7:47 AM
@rene: you can look in your flag history, the accounts are there. There is some account re-use.
 
@rene well, you can't reuse those that are q-banned or nuked
 
Yep, the last one was from the same account for the spam form 19mins ago
 
LOL
the same person approved the second time and rejected the first.
 
10
A: Show the post's comments on the "Suggested Edits" review interface

Kate GregoryMy approach to this is to reject edits that add material or change code UNLESS the edit revision comment says something like "incorporated background from comment by question-asker" or "adding code from answer by question-asker" or otherwise makes it clear to me that there is more going on here t...

 
where is the ratio in that?
I would refrain from commenting not to hurt anyone ...
 
7:52 AM
@JanDvorak There is 5 mins between the spam posts of two diffeent accounts, the same account is used in 20 mins intervals...
 
@rene that sounds like the natural limit
 
@JanDvorak: what a silly answer, downvoted ...
 
@JanDvorak They are rate limited by the SE network?
 
@LaszloPapp are you going to comment as well?
@rene there are rate limits for asking for everyone
0
A: Show the post's comments on the "Suggested Edits" review interface

Tobias KienzlerHere's a list of examples where this feature might have been useful, please feel free to expand on it: http://stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/2726595, approved http://math.stackexchange.com/review/suggested-edits/90756, rejected http://stackoverflow.com/review/suggested-edits/1592760, ...

 
@JanDvorak: already done. You are late in the game.
-1. This answer is a bit shocking to me. I personally do not see how adding useless noise is any help. You are supposed to do a quality review or none when deciding to act on the suggested edit, and not skip. If you do not take the time to do it properly, just skip it. It will be better for everyone. Otherwise, you might reject a completely valid bug fix. You are not obliged to review things that you do not have time for. — Laszlo Papp 1 min ago
 
7:55 AM
I wonder if they are trying for 20 minutes to get past that limit...that woukd be detectable...
 
@LaszloPapp I'll be watching the comments in order to see his reply. You are the only downvoter so far vs by far the most upvotes.
I'm only sorry we can't downvote comments.
 
I am "only sorry" we cannot ban stupid reviewers instantly.
 
@LaszloPapp we can. Flag the offending post as "other"
<sarcasm> You don't even have to provide any decent explanation. Moderators are required to check the comment thread anyways. </sarcasm>
@LaszloPapp do flag for moderator attention if you think I'm a robot.
 
SO is full of people not doing quality job. This is pretty sad.
 
@LaszloPapp are you claiming that mods are not doing quality job?
 
8:07 AM
it really does not matter who is moderator and who is not. Someone rejecting a potentially valid and very useful edit just because that person does not get useless noise is overly stupid.
And the only way to make sure it is valid is having knowledge in the area and time to investigate. That means you will fully understand the question, the answers and the comments.
 
@LaszloPapp do post a feature request, then
 
Yeah? Access for banning stupid people instantly?
Sorry for the word stupid, but the severity of the issue is big as it is about leaving broken answers around.
 
Top tip: Don't use "stupid people" as part of your feature request
2
 
am I a robot for suggesting to delete this before waiting for the image to fully load?
 
@Bart: I know, meta is not objective, but subjective which is pretty sad. That is pretty much the reason why I avoid it and do not propose "feature requests". It is pointless, there is no democracy, and ideas are oftentimes decided based on individuals, not technical measures.
and how the gold badge person found the edit too minor, I cannot understand, especially since the same suggestion was approved by him next time.
 
That is one fresh account, expect one other fresh account in 5 minutes?
 
Wait, you're not going to argue that "stupid people" should be just fine, right? @LaszloPapp.
 
@JanDvorak also has an SO account...3 days old..no questions
 
8:35 AM
is gone now...
 
wow. That took time.
should I start hashing those user IDs to something more rememberable?
 
Better leave it so...
 
@Bart: this problem can be addressed by selecting an edit type and propagating it to the right people, respectively.
in an ideal world, people would be sane, and do quality job, but apparently, we do not live nearly close to that.
 
Nope indeed. Editors suggesting edits indeed do not always include all the necessary information. It's a shame, but well ...
 
sigh
what information do you need, seriously?
what information will tell you from the comment that is valid? It can only be done by deep area expertise and investigation on the thread.
 
8:50 AM
that answer comments are what I should look at
 
but that is not!
 
that is not ...
 
you need to have 1) Deep knowledge 2) Time for investigating about the whole thread.
 
what thread?
the post comments?
the question comments?
some other answer or its comments?
Google or the docs?
 
the thread of snow-shite and sleeping beauty..
 
8:51 AM
@JanDvorak Jan, I think to know where that is going.
 
Tell me what I need to look at. If not, I will assume your edit is entirely self-contained and I will evaluate it accordingly. If you can't be bothered to do that, perhaps you shouldn't be suggesting edits.
 
Let me try an example. @LaszloPapp, correct me if I misunderstood your mind
 
@Bart: do you really need "look at the thread" for all the logical suggested edits?!
 
If that is required to understand the edit being made, yes.
 
@LaszloPapp no, and that's the point.
 
8:54 AM
@Bart: what else would be required, seriously?
 
but if we do need to check the comments, we should be told so.
 
In order to judge an answer, you need to first understand the questions, that means potentially the clarifying comments underneath
and then you need to understand the answers with the potential comments.
 
Then tell me so
 
I do not see how it could be done otherwise.
tell you all the time, seriously?
so the edit history would be full of needless noise for all logical edits?
 
Suppose you have a question that ask how to weave a carpet. One user post detailed steps on how to use a loom to accomplish the task. Later, one edit suggests that the "code" for using the loom is incorrect "you must do that instead of this". You never weaved a carpet. Can you just assume the edit is wrong or right based on what the comment pack currently says?
 
8:55 AM
@LaszloPapp tell me, have you read the question whose answer you have downvoted?
 
Oh boy, edit history with noise in it. How will we survive?
 
@JanDvorak: of course.
@Bart: that kinda thinking bothers me .... let us get the crap in, we will survive.
 
@LaszloPapp have you read the comment thread for the answer and the question?
 
because I am stubborn and I refuse to read otherwise which I should do anyway
 
It isn't even noise @LaszloPapp. It provides a history for actions taken. If the comments are removed as obsolete, at least we know that this significant edit was based on something particular.
 
8:57 AM
indeed, comments are third-class citisens here
 
That account is persistent
 
@Bart: I am very sad to see you still have not read the explanation of the suggested edit in question.
 
@LaszloPapp what explanation?
 
@SPArchaeologist: you need deep domain expertise + time.
no useless suggested edit noise will save you there.
 
If you're talking about "Changed files(glob) to $$files(glob)" then that is not good enough. Add to that the fact that that is not how the first line appears in the very documentation you link to, and one might well see it as an invalid edit.
 
9:06 AM
@SPArchaeologist: yes, it can be done properly only by qualified and dedicated people, but that is not a reason people not matching that critertia should not leave it with them.
 
@LaszloPapp have you already posted the feature request that suggesters need some rep in the tag they are reviewing?
 
@Bart: that clearly shows no understanding for you on the topic, so skip it.
leave it with the people who have the domain expertise (and no, you are wrong, the documentation does say to use $$ for functions).
 
The line you quoted doesn't
 
@LaszloPapp have you already posted the feature request that suggesters need some rep in the tag they are reviewing?
 
I will not review java, C# and similar edits because I am not qualified even if I WANT DIAMOND BADGE NAOOOO !!!!!111
 
9:07 AM
And you don't have give me the diff as your edit comment. You have to tell me why you made that edit.
 
"read the thread"
do we really need that all the time?
 
Are you really this dense?
"read the thread" would by no means suffice
 
@LaszloPapp what stance are you actually defending right now?
oh, I think I understand. Then: "what thread?"
but yes, "the comments explain this edit" is way better than 'changed "tyccon" to "tycoon"'.
"changed X to Y" or "edited Z" is pure noise.
 
"According to the documentation (link) X needs to be prefaced with $$ for this to work"
 
 
1 hour later…
10:46 AM
@JanDvorak I also dv the answers that had wrong links in it...
 
10:59 AM
Jan, done
 
11:15 AM
@Louis just cast the final vote :)
 
@ShadowWizard Thanks, and thanks to all who helped.
 
@JanDvorak weird, I thought <10 rep users can't upload images?
Let me see...
 
Mat
@ShadowWizard: that's per-site tunable.
 
@ShadowWizard Afaik, you can upload the image but when you click on "Post your Question", it gives a error message because of low reputation but you can get the link of that image and put in your question
that is OP did ..
 
seems spammers are on the loose today.
 
That account was used yesterday as well to send spam
 
11:40 AM
that ^^^^ is not completely true: an account which used the same name describes the case better...
 
btw....
6 days from now... any hope to have a banner somewhere on SO for Towel Day? (or change the question button to "Don't Panic")?
 
@SPArchaeologist SO no, but actually if you can come with a cool banner you can post it yourself here and it might show in scifi.stackexchange.com homepage
 
Mat
Might work, they facebook'ed and gooleplus'ed (or is that the same thing) in 2012
 
@Mat cool, nice find!
 
Mat
Hehe. Googling for "towel day stackexchange". First hit:
2
Q: Does wrapping a wet paper towel around a glass bottle really speed up the cooling process?

Uwe KeimThere are claims like this one that you can improve the cooling speed of beverages when you put them wrapped in a wet paper towel inside the refrigerator/freezer. I've just tried it by myself and it seems it does not work as expected, although I might have confused freezer with refrigerator. ...

Totally valid.
 
11:54 AM
google's search algorithm is kind of funny sometimes
 
It's even mentioned in other chat rooms :)
 
@DroidDev what about it? The OP added a smiley so he's well aware, it was trivial question :)
 
@Bart: how would you trust a newcomer OP after posting one sentence with a link which may be misleading? The only real way to do quality work is understanding the issue, answers, and comments. It is entirely possible that the OP may mislead you by a link unintentionally. I would not approve anything based on that, at least from now on.
 
Mat
Funny how Cooking doesn't have a spam tag.
 
@Mat yeah, but it does have ham ;)
 
Mat
Flag spam. Always flag it. Do not try to appeal to a spammer's better nature: they don't have one. — TRiG 55 secs ago
^ so true
 
I would flag as NAA, but that would be wasting flags
 
12:14 PM
@Mat Heh.
 
@JanDvorak 99% this is a spammer too, probably same one
Maybe he was hoping to vote himself up and getting free repz
 
^^
 
that would a short-lived upvote
 
@JanDvorak yeah, but enough accounts and enough upvotes means he will bump his spam right into the hot network questions sidebar
it happened before, though not with pure spam.
 
Mat
12:50 PM
0
Q: Why do girls love horses so much?

Braai-MasterWhy do Bread Companies add sugar to Bread? I have clients that is on a sugar detox/diet but now they cant eat any bread because all the bread companies added sugar.

Troll?
 
was that the original title or it was edited afterward?
 
Mat
No trace of edit, but could have been ninja'd
 
The responses seem to detoriate over the last hours...
 
@Takkat ok, you seemly don't understand that views, favorites and upvotes are not quality values. I'm sorry, but constructive argument trying to make you understand that point is beyond my capacity. — Braiam 18 hours ago
anyone can give a constructive argument?
I can't find an example anywhere
 
views and favorites should be clear. If a question is funny enough it can be favorite even if it is a bad question.
For "votes do not indicate quality", please refer to our secreatary, @LaszloPapp
 
1:09 PM
@SPArchaeologist heh
 
1:28 PM
:P
 
@JanDvorak Oh joy.
 
cute 404 page that Cooking has, BTW
 
@JanDvorak you noticed :P
 
1:46 PM
It's all quiet here now that @LaszloPapp doesn't want to argue :-D
Would you please use more than one line when programming your next app? — Jan Dvorak 19 secs ago
 
One liners were very popular and still are on CodeGolf
 
@rene amended
Would you please use more than one line when programming your next app? This is not code golf... — Jan Dvorak 3 mins ago
 
lol
 
Afternoon coffee, last before going home.
 
1:57 PM
My process of taking a photo, uploading it to the computer, then to the internetz, then posting here is not very streamlined, unfortunately. In the meantime, please pretend I've just posted a top-down view of a half-empty beer glass.
 
@JanDvorak pic or never happened!
 
@JanDvorak oh, you're allowed beer in your work? Super cool!
 
@ShadowWizard I'm not currently at work
 
Welcome to SO. You don't need to add android to your title, that is where the tags are for. To get better help from us we would appreciate if you had a go yourself first and then show us where you have an actual issue. At the moment your question reads as an invitation for us to write the code for you. We rather not do that because you won't have the fun of learning and trying something new. — rene 40 secs ago
 
perfect
upvoted
 
2:00 PM
@JanDvorak oh, bummer. Anyway my trick is emailing myself the picture then saving to the computer from the email, saving the need to plug the phone with a cable. :)
 
@ShadowWizard What is that floating debris?
 
oh, wait, I can access my phone filesystem directly from the computer. I'll be posting more food imagery from now oon.
 
@JanDvorak nice! Is this Leffe Blond?
@JanDvorak without a cable? How?!
 
2:03 PM
@ShadowWizard BT
 
Oh yeah, please do!
 
Heineken International is a group which owns a worldwide portfolio of over 170 beer brands, mainly pale lager, though some other beer styles are produced. As of 2006, Heineken owns over 125 breweries in more than 70 countries and employs approximately 57,557 people. The two largest brands are Heineken and Amstel; though the portfolio includes Fosters (in Europe and Vietnam), Sagres, Cruzcampo, Skopsko, Affligem, Żywiec, Starobrno, Zagorka, and Birra Moretti. Heineken Heineken Lager Beer is the flagship product of the company. It is a 5% abv pale lager that was first made in 1868. It i...
 
@rene it's the coffee, I sometimes make myself cold coffee so it's not fully dissolving
 
@ShadowWizard You are a beer connoisseur?
 
@TGMCians I've used "too broad". I really don't think a custom close reason was necessary.
 
2:04 PM
I am trying to see if meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/253964/… is the same as what I am seeing. Whenever I am in the edit review queue, this unreadable font appears every 5 reviews say. Any one with more information on this one?
 
@JanDvorak oh, never heard of that. Leffe on the other hand is one of the best IMO
@rene lol no, far from that. Just enjoy the occasional bear with friends from time to time.
3
 
@ShadowWizard never heard of Leffe, but I've definitely heard czech beers are the best.
 
oh, lol... leaving the typo there. Too funny
 
:)
 
:This article is about Leffe, the beer brand. For the Italian commune, see Leffe, Lombardy. Leffe is a beer brand owned by InBev Belgium, the European operating arm of the global Anheuser–Busch InBev brewery giant. There are several beers in the range, and they are marketed as Abbey beers. They are brewed in large quantities and are widely distributed. History The abbey was founded in 1152 on the Meuse River in the province of Namur in southern Belgium. Like many monasteries across Europe, the Premonstratensian (Norbertine) canons of the abbey brewed ale. Using knowledge passed from ...
Straight from Belgium!
 
2:06 PM
Ah, Heineken...
 
@ShadowWizard no Czech branch?
 
@JanDvorak not that I know of
 
@Louis Hmm I agree, it has put on hold now, thanks :-)
 
Dunno why, but beers from northern Europe are better
 
@ShadowWizard are they "assembly required", though?
 
2:12 PM
@JanDvorak assembly required? What do you mean?
 
@ShadowWizard Do you get a glass, a bag of beer, a valve and a manual in swedish?
 
@JanDvorak umm, nope. Just one glass, full with tasty cold beer. :-D
Or one bottle, to be accurate
I fill the glass myself. :)
 
if you have a bottle, why bother with a glass?
 
@JanDvorak because I usually get one when buying the beer in a pub ;)
 
@ShadowWizard how did you get the bottle, then?
 
2:16 PM
Amazing, I also love Stella and didn't know it's also from Belgium!
me: "Barman, give me Leffe Blond please"
Barman: "Sure, here you go"
(hands over a bottle)
 
huh... that's not how we do it here
 
I think all imported beers here come in bottles
So you got only barrels, @Jan?
 
@ShadowWizard we got them already poured into glasses here
 
@ShadowWizard you should try Duvel or Westmalle
Isn't it a little bit misleading that users can't always see their deleted post if I understand Oded's comment correctly: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/231871/…
 
@JanDvorak how convenient! :)
@rene don't think we got these here, but will keep in mind, thanks!
 
Mat
2:28 PM
@rene: they could see them if they had a link, but they're not listed directly in the profile (in the recently deleted posts thing)
 
@rene they can see it up to 90 days after deletion (or 60 maybe?)
If someone cares enough about his question, he will keep it bookmarked though
 
Ok, didn't know that those expired
 
@rene well, it says "recently" :)
so question is only how recent it is
 
I read recently as 'ordered from most recent to oldest' deleted questions...
 
2:48 PM
What is the rep-level needed to start handling suggested-edits from the queue?
 
Mat
2k, @rene. Comes with the editing privs.
 
@Mat true, and not just from the queue, you can do it directly from the post, then I think it won't count as review action
 
not sure about this though
 
@ShadowWizard actually it counts
 
2:53 PM
@Braiam oh, cool
Long time since I've seen so much red in MSE homepage
The devs are on a bugfix spree!
 
@ShadowWizard Pssst... I've just noticed among the starred messages: "Just enjoy the occasional bear with friends from time to time." is liable to send a message which I think is quite different than what you intended, in context.
 
@Louis the star wall is the no-context-wall ;)
 
@Louis yeah, I was going to fix the typo but then realized it's just too funny :D
Well, I did see a brown bear when touring USA parks (or was it Canada?) ;)
 
And then you enjoyed one?
 
Well, then let me star it, and add that when I read "Just enjoy the occasional bear with friends from time to time" this is what immediately comes to my mind:
 
@rene of course, young chubby brown bear, he was very cute. From the car window. We never dared going outside of course! :)
@Louis not brown enough!
 
@Louis too much bear
 
3:24 PM
What the .... did I stumble into "The Tavern After Dark"?
 
@Louis ARGH. Thanks, Luis. Now I need some hydrochloric acid to wash my eyes.
 
This happens when you have to much bear...
 
I can't bear this any longer.
 
groan
 
No @Oded. Bears growl.
 
3:30 PM
@Bart <-- growl
 
I wonder if I'm in the wrong room or with the wrong people...
 
You are in the right room, with the right bears
 
@Bart: Kate says bugfix is not suggested edit material, so she disagrees with both of us. ;-)
 
Cya guys, enjoy your bears everyone! :D
 
So tempted to change Tim Stone's chat username to Goldilocks, and wait for him to show up and find the three bears.
 
3:40 PM
I think there is some need to get clear definition of what a suggested edit is.
 
has anyone solved the rubix cube on google yet?
 
appears to raise an eyebrow
 
@TimStone One lovely golden eyebrown?
I did @Stilly.stack. Peeled off all the stickers though.
Eyebrown ... really? I hang out here too much.
 
3:56 PM
this rubix cube sucks, b.c theres no option to throw it on the cement and crack it
 
@laszlo papp: thanks for your attention, i can't provide the codes... Is it possible somehow help me that what is the origin of these errors? — dewyeye 2 mins ago
 
@LaszloPapp Sure, somewhere in parser.tab.c
 
lol
I believe you either forgot to include the file declaring parserlex and parsererror, or you have made a typo like missing underscore. Alternatively, you do not have the proper include path defined for the build, etc. It is all guesswork without seeing the code. — Laszlo Papp 1 min ago
 
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