Tavern on the Meta - 2020-01-22 (page 2 of 4)

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1:00 PM

@Tinkeringbell Well, I don't really follow Meta SE, more SO Meta, so I may well have missed things. And I don't know "everyone", just those active on SO Meta. Just a lot of names I'd never seen before I was seeing since last fall in the various "blow-ups" here, who were (from the context of the contribution) mainly from other sites, whether they have an SO account, or not.

I have the same impression as Tink. Most of the people who shout on MSE instead of speaking seem to me to come from the SO side. Very subjective opinion though, I haven't really checked.

@user1306322 I know of people who try to fight Amazon, just as others try to fight banks, or mining corporations or atomic energy plants or ...

And I guess many of us have SO accounts even though that isn't our main site. I have some 3k rep on SO, for instance, but I don't consider myself an active SO user.

@BlueSoul seen it. It's looming over my head.

;)

2.5k. Whatever.

1:03 PM

thing is all corporations have a common weakness - their primary goal is to achieve financial success, and this is what we should fight to "win"... what are we trying to win, again?

@CindyMeister well, SO is now the "favorite child" of SE.... this might explain it. ;)

@terdon Oh, even I have an SO account ;) But it's not on the top of my account list :P

a lot of people seem to forget that there can be other places to do the same thing, and so limiting your vision to just one place is not in anyone's best interests

same as if politics get too bad in one's country of birth - you can migrate to a more peaceful country

sure there are difficulties but it might be worth it in the long run

those who have lived in places which never got terribly bad seem to think this is some kind of fantasy and nobody really thinks that, but they forget that people from third world countries routinely jump borders and escape to better countries to find any other kind of life than what they were dealt at the start of their lives

a lot of users here have been spoiled by how good this site was for a very long while, and so a similar bias is expected

it's not going to be easy to convince most to jump ship today, but we'll see about that in a couple years

1:21 PM

If Codidact will be a success, I'm all for it. SO could use a good competition, even when it was still a good place. Competition makes you respect your users more.

2

reading CEO's responses now is like watching the politicians on TV... this is not the place I joined, but now I know how to rebuild it once more, or if someone beats me to it, I'll join theirs

I don't really see any alternatives as "competition" strictly speaking, more like the actual, correct implementation that was meant to be in the first place

imagine if Wikipedia was a for-profit organization and the same stuff started happening to it today, like "we need more articles and more editors, and they should all have a happy time editing" - someone would be building a non-profit version already

how do you pronounce codidact ?

no idea, but I assume it's "co-didact"

I don't think you can beat Stack Overflow at being Stack Overflow

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker Probably not

1:23 PM

@GeorgeStocker always assumed Co-Di-Dact but now that you mention it....

Journeyman Geek

But that's not a bad thing

but if you build something that doesn't look or act like Stack Overflow; but achieves the underlying goal, you're better off

Maybe Codi-Dact

also, Codidact is just a working title of the Q&A software, the official instance name will probably be named something else

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker SO was inspired by EE but different.

1:24 PM

There is old game called Didacto... wonder if related...

there's a post explaining the name on the forum

@JourneymanGeek indeed; it had a large differentiator

what would this new software's differentiator be?

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker It... also had Jeff

:D

I mean we could still get the old gang together

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker I'm not actually sure

1:26 PM

@Shadow9 Cody-Dact?

@rene not Gray?

Grey

@user1306322 if you bring Jeff, balpha, Jin, and Shog.... it's a 100% success. :-D

@JourneymanGeek That's partially why I'm not recommending codidact; it's missing a 'why', it's missing a differentiator; it's missing how we are going to evolve Q&A to make it more useful for today.

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow9 I suspect a "not totally not for profit but not VC funded" might be the most sustainable moidel.

1:28 PM

To address the shortcomings of current Q&A software.

Jeff and balpha can master the programming side, Jin the design, and Shog, well, it's obvious. ;)

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker I was keeping an eye on it, but I'll wait till they ship at this point

@user1306322 .... have you ever watched "Lum: The Forever"?

@GeorgeStocker you know.... at this point it reminds me of politics in Israel: we have two big parties: one exists for decades, and one is brand new, founded for the sole purpose of bringing the other party to lose, or more accurate to say to bring down the current PM. It's a "vote for us because the other one is bad" party, which is just wrong. They have nothing of their own.

Journeyman Geek

(most of their community is on discord now, which I don't use)

1:31 PM

And the new party has same power as the older, so it's a total mess.

@BlueSoul nope, that's too vintage for me

@Shadow9 politics is not the same as web software dev tho

@user1306322 kinda describes current situation.

you can basically build facebook alone but not a political party

the title of that movie is a sort of trick.

@user1306322 when a software company CEO acts like a politician, it is.

1:35 PM

If a movie should have been called "Forever" that was Beautiful Dreamer, not that one

Well, any CEO can be compared to being a politician, I guess. Both involve getting hard decisions, always running after the money required to keep the company alive, etc.

@Shadow9 idk if Codidact's lead devs act as politicians, or TopAnswers'

@user1306322 it's not a company

When it will be sold to a company, we'll see.

(if, not when...)

I suppose I don't believe there needs to be much money involved in open source dev, and don't see the connection

Journeyman Geek

I think the whole goal is to be non profit/non corporate.

That's vaguely the hook

1:38 PM

I thought that was pretty explicitly THE hook?

the first and most obvious distinction

@JourneymanGeek Is there any example for something like that in big scale?

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow9 I wish I knew!

after that, slightly different mechanisms, improvements that the community asked for but never received on meta for years

Dark theme?

@Shadow9 you could say all the encyclopedias sold as books and then Wikipedia came along

@Shadow9 planned after MVP

1:39 PM

Notification for deleted posts?

not sure there was a discussion about that yet

I think the folks on Codidact are generally pro chat and will move away from Discord when it's live

I know I can't find my way around Discord...

Discord doesn't even have any Reply feature

So it's not fitting for actual chat.

well, it is for chat, but not threaded discussion

move to Twitch.

haha

1:47 PM

One on one chat for sure, but when it comes to group of people, it can be a pure mess.

@user1306322 we could do a "Twitch plays Meta Moderation"

Pinging there is also a nightmare.

gonna use shog instead of pog

chat controlled flags and close votes.

@user1306322 hi, project lead here :P Journeyman's right, it's about being a community-oriented alternative, not just another company.

1:49 PM

sure, as if I'm not active on the forums :p

Journeyman Geek

@ArtOfCode I try to keep track of gossip :D

@ArtOfCode you could respond to George's questions a screen or two above

Journeyman Geek

Critically

28 mins ago, by George Stocker

how do you pronounce codidact ?

@user1306322 Got links? Easy to miss in 864 unread messages :P

Journeyman Geek

? :D

1:51 PM

it's still within my 4k screen tho :p

show off!

Journeyman Geek

26 mins ago, by George Stocker

what would this new software's differentiator be?

oh you have no idea

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 >_>

I have 2 :D

@GeorgeStocker forum.codidact.org/t/whats-the-story-behind-the-site-name/303/…

1:52 PM

24 mins ago, by George Stocker

@JourneymanGeek That's partially why I'm not recommending codidact; it's missing a 'why', it's missing a differentiator; it's missing how we are going to evolve Q&A to make it more useful for today.

Journeyman Geek

I was getting to that :D

just… don't be too mad

@GeorgeStocker heh. We have that... it's just spread through about 200 different forum threads. The biggest one is that it's community-run not corporately-run, but there's a bunch of stuff about how we're tweaking the format to make it work smoother too.

@ArtOfCode Huh? Really? Like collaborate? I say it like coequal or coaxial, the co sound of cone.

@terdon Aye, I tend to as well. That was mostly to point out that the split is Co | didact rather than Codi | dact or Co | da | dict (?!)

1:56 PM

@Shadow9 "They have nothing of their own", how do you know?, have you been reading the discussions in Codidact?, their reasoning?, or are you just dismissing them outright?

@ArtOfCode ah, right.

Journeyman Geek

@Lamak or it reminds him of something :D

(cause shockingly enough, folks have opinions. Sometimes on partial data. I'm guilty of that too.)

politics will do that to ya

Also, @GeorgeStocker, I'm sure we would really appreciate your insight and suggestions on codidact. We're sort of making it up as we go along, but there have been some very interesting discussions on how we can improve on SE's model. Your experience would be invaluable!

@JourneymanGeek no, I get it. But I don't think that saying something like that without understanding first is wrong

Journeyman Geek

1:58 PM

>_>

If you're interested in what the vision for Codidact is, have a look at this thread (I'd recommend hitting the Summarize This Topic button, otherwise it's... long)

Journeyman Geek

@Lamak I'm going to agree with that, but I'm not sure that's what you're intending to mean.

@Lamak I talk about politics in Israel, the new party. Codidact, at this point, is like that party in the sense it's "Anti SO", created only because SO became bad. Other aspects are not the same, or can't be compared.

@JourneymanGeek I'm going to say that I don't actually get what you mean with that comment...

@ArtOfCode ZOMG! I hadn't noticed that button! Aaaaargh! That makes things easier!

2:00 PM

heh

- 2 mods to Blender.

I think it only shows up on the long threads

@GeorgeStocker honestly if you can just describe what you think a better successor to SO/SE should look like in abstract, without taking into account what the current state of any prominent alternatives is today, someone out there will pick up on that for sure and words will turn into reality later

@ArtOfCode There are other kinds? ;)

point

2:00 PM

22

Q: David♦ Moderator resignation

Well here is a post that even a year ago I never thought I would be writing. I've been part of this site for six years to the day, January 21, 2014. My interest in blender caused me to get more and more involved with BSE so much so that I was one of our first three elected moderators. Over the y...

discussion featured moderation

11

Q: A goodbye to the community

Most of you here probably don't know my handle or haven't interacted with me personally since I've taken a back seat for a while now. I was the very first moderator here and I'm very proud of that fact and what I've accomplished in my earlier years. This post is being done off the top of my head ...

discussion featured moderation

One of the main things the codidact forums have brought home to me is exactly why I was so happy to leave forums for SE way back when. And this forum is a modern, improved version, too.

Journeyman Geek

*Q&A site

:D

OH

You meant discord

discourse

er

I am clearly not braining :D

codidact.org is like a meta forum (based on discourse) for the organized discussion of what the Q&A should look like

231 threads, 5.3k posts

Journeyman Geek

Oh, I know a few folks involved

2:02 PM

kinda like meta was probably supposed to be here, not a Q&A shoe-in whack job but a discussion site, based on a discussion engine

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 uhm

Actually protometa was uservoice.

Apparently early users had to... convince Jeff to do meta.

@GeorgeStocker I see you have an authoritative answer, this is what I found (which may not have been intended, apparently): en.wiktionary.org/wiki/codi en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dactylus

I gotta say uservoice to me sounds like corporate "we hear you, post your thoughts in the comments below" and then they do what they wanted anyway and point at the comment that aligns with their actions the most and say "see? we listened!", so I have low trust of uservoice >.>

oh microsoft uservoice...

Journeyman Geek

@user1306322 And its the same reason people are so passionate about Meta over surveys, and the problem with it

@Rob daktylous? Fingers? You thought the name meant we were, um, fingering each other!?

2:07 PM

No

Journeyman Geek

Its the same platform. Its raw, and unfiltered and just a little overwhelming

@terdon I'm not sure my answer would be palatable for you. I believe a public Q&A should be community run; but I also believe it needs a sustainable business model to stay around -- not a "get big and go public" business model; but something that delivers value people are willing to pay for.

@GeorgeStocker Palatable or not, in my experience your answers are well formed, and clearly expressed. We may disagree, but that doesn't mean yours wouldn't be a useful perspective to hear.

so community-funded, like wikipedia? (let's imagine for a second that it is funded by solely community, and not investors with big pockets)

The biggest improvement we can make is to transcend the system we use.

Upvotes and downvotes and accepted answers are tragically outdated now

2:09 PM

There are some exciting suggestions about voting.

@GeorgeStocker I don't think those are at odds, actually. I think that's viable if (as is planned) you set up a non-profit around the organisation, and reinvest its income back into the site (somehow) rather than focusing on making profit.

Not because there's anything wrong with upvotes or downvotes; but because it doesn't capture the change that occurs over time

and most questions will never have enough traffic where downvotes can make up for the initial spread of upvotes

there are discussions about making more recent answers more prominent than the old highly uptoved ones, I'd have to search for the link tho

threads about voting: a different approach and how we should compute score

So I'd do away with upvotes and downvotes completely; as well as accepted answers; I'd replace it with something that is specialized towards "finding the answer I need for what I'm trying to do"

2:10 PM

Yes. I've long been thinking about a scheme where votes age away. You should have a minimum threshold you can't fall below, so if you've passed +10 say, then you can't age back to 0, but you can age back to +10 from your max of +30.

And unfortunately; a completely 'democracy' run Q&A site will fall under its own weight. We do need a charismatic leader type that can help to drive that vision and relentlessly hone in on that vision

@terdon I'd be interested in hearing about that when you have enough details :)

without that you end up with a hodgepodge of ideas that don't fit together cohesively.

@GeorgeStocker that's Monica's job :P

@ArtOfCode Yeah, I've never posted about it cause it's only been idle speculation.

2:12 PM

@GeorgeStocker think someone once suggested weighting votes on age.

fwiw I'm investigating showing the time graph of votes over time for my personal Q&A project kinda like Steam reviews has, so it would be immediately visible if the post was popular in the past, but later started receiving negative or "outdated" flags/reactions cdn.neow.in/news/images/uploaded/2018/10/1540207850_capture.jpg

@ArtOfCode why did I know you were project lead before I checked?

Obviously ignored since that would mean constant rep changes.

I know some people here are afraid of too much data and complexity but i'm not :p

I would also position the product as not a Q&A; but as something else entirely.

If you position it as Q&A, you have to compete with Stack Overflow, and you will lose.

2:13 PM

what else do people recognize immediately and understand what the term stands for?

discussions mean forums(?)

@GeorgeStocker On the other hand, there's a degree to which we need to compete, at least to start with, because that's where a lot of our initial userbase will come from.

solutions..? too vague

Pitch it and position it as programmer collaboration software, or software devleopment collaboration software; something that takes it out of the gartner quadrant for Q&A.

"knowledge base" maybe

and selling companies 'knowledgebase' software may or may not be profitable -- but it's something you can sell at least.

and whatever is done, you need a product you can sell to people

2:15 PM

Collaboration I could go with, but it needs to be pitched as not just software - that's the problem SO is having right now, and potentially another source of people.

@ArtOfCode I see it differently. By relentlessly focusing on who you want to serve you can solve their problems really well.

One of the problems with the SE network is trying to be all things to all people

and if you relentlessly focus on who you want to serve, you know your target market. It's never 'everyone'. It's always someone.

Journeyman Geek

@GeorgeStocker well kinda sorta. It grew fast. then...

"Now what?"

So focus on that someone.

afaik the plan with Codidact is to create a basic Q&A platform and then expand that to fit the needs of each specific community, without porting ALL the features to ALL communities, just the ones that request them

@ArtOfCode correct me if I'm wrong

I do wish codidact and team all the best; but I'd likely go a different direction if I tried to enter this space.

2:20 PM

@GeorgeStocker Why would we lose? First of all, what would losing even mean? All we need is a critical mass of users, we don't need to get everyone or even more people than SO. And there's no reason why SO would be the main thing. If anything, I would personally prefer it isn't, and we don't focus on programming as the first subject.

All pointers indicate that the first Codidact community, as soon as development reaches the point where it's possible to actually use Q&A, will be Writing.CDCT.

@GeorgeStocker I think you are thinking of this too much as a for-profit venture. The objective here isn't to be profitable, it's to build something that we can use. If anyone else wants to as well, so much the better.

Either way, I certainly don't see SO as the model to follow. SE, perhaps, but not SO.

I think the "someone" I personally would like SE to serve today is every user who's not paying a dime for their paid Teams or other services they sell, simple as that. But let is be a separate division in the company, with just that goal. Right now it seems like they're trying to minimize the expenses on public-facing sites and maximize profits from private projects.

@terdon Since SE sites other than SO are going to be ~~killed~~ left alone to die on their own slowly but surely, that's a good thing.

also I don't think of launching a free to copy knowledge base platform is a loss in any way

2:25 PM

@terdon servers aren’t free. Bandwidth isn’t free. Time isn’t free. I want the site to stay around. If you rely on good will and donations you will burn out.

Journeyman Geek

@Shadow9 eh, at worst, that's not that different from the the period just before and after the 2017 issues. Its just that we had a glorious thaw, and a monumental let down since

If you burn out, it goes away. Finding a business model that is conducive to keeping it around is important.

The open source landscape is littered with dead projects because they burned out

@GeorgeStocker that is one possibility, yes. I don't see why I should assume it will happen though. And coming from the open source world, I know there are many long-standing projects that have managed.

@GeorgeStocker but isn't it how Wikipedia works? It lives on donations, money-wise.

And if we start looking at it as something we need to be able to sell, I don't really have any interest in participating. I'd much rather it died than that it get tied to some entity forcing us to make the profitable choice.

2:27 PM

idk if it's gonna be THAT expensive

worst case I'll host a node on my own connection indefinitely

And, at least at first, it's relatively easy to finance it just by having some donations from the core userbase.

If Codidact will attract big enough core of users who will also raise money for it when needed, it can succeed.

@Shadow9 Wikipedia also has a scale we couldn’t ever dream of hitting and it still scrapes by. I wouldn’t wish that life on anyone

The problem with the hosting isn't really the techinical side, servers, data bandwith

The real investment is the community, and that, speaking from experience is exhausting

if the data exchange is mostly going to be text, I don't think the bill will be too high at the end of the month, especially with a conservative user base at the beginning

2:29 PM

Also, you get headaches like privacy, child protection laws, etc..

Journeyman Geek

@Tschallacka Getting something stood up is hard

What I'm worried about myself is how they'll attract enough people, i.e. marketing. If it's meant to be small site and replace non-SO sites then it's great, and it will be a sure success, but if it's meant to replace SO... it's a whole different level.

Journeyman Geek

Keeping it running it is easier. Even I do it :D

@Tschallacka licensing of code

@GeorgeStocker Not if that's your full time job, no. But if it's a hobby, why not?

Journeyman Geek

2:30 PM

@Shadow9 well there there's a pretty clear idea of what not to do :D

Yup, also you need to think of lawyer fees because DCMA things will drop in, you will get sued over things when you host code snippets and texts

Not fair, SE gave Codidact lots of tips what NOT to do. ;)

Or it turns into the "Stack Overflow rejects" pile. Not trying to rain on parades, I've just seen too many Internet community splits that wind up like that

"rain on parade".... LOL

Yup. It's easy to have people flood in, raise up and then leave the ashesh

Journeyman Geek

2:31 PM

@Machavity for all its failings...

I don't see Codidact as being meant to outright replace SE. It's meant as an alternative for those who don't want to use SE for whatever reason, and to try to do stuff better. But that doesn't mean that it will necessarily have to become bigger than or really anywhere near the scale of SO.

@Shadow9 The way I see it (and I'm a nobody in codidact, this is just my 2c), I dont' aim to replace anything. I want a place where I can have fun and learn by asking and answering questions, without feeling that my work is benefiting an ugly corporation. So if it stays tiny, but with an engaged userbase, that's fine by me.

idk if anyone should want to become as big as SO, like what for?

@terdon I’m 37. I have lots of hobbies.i don’t have the time to do the same hobby I still love and did 5 years ago

Honestly, I want SO to succeed and start listening to it's users again, or, pull its hands away from the community and focussing on selling their stuff to who ever will take it and let the community manage itself

Journeyman Geek

2:32 PM

I think the system we have now kinda... works. Let the community elect mods.

However, if I’m getting paid to do it then I’m able to devote time to it, even over competing hobbies

@GeorgeStocker I'm 39, I have less time than I used to but still have some.

All this making new TOS, revaming homepage, relicensing forced down throat, firing mods, every decision without any community consultation has been chosen poorly

@GeorgeStocker Sure, but that's a whole different kettle of fish. I don't think anybody really wants to make a living out of this. It's certainly not an official goal of the project.

Journeyman Geek

hm

2:33 PM

And, in any case, that's the beauty of open source: Gorge no longer has time? No biggie, Sophie can step in instead.

Journeyman Geek

I'm possiblyy talking out of my rear ...

enter that weird piece of code nobody understands and touches

Journeyman Geek

but LJ and DW seem a decent comparison

@Tschallacka Bad code, you mean? ;)

If I pull at it the server won't boot...

Journeyman Geek

2:34 PM

Dreamwidth was a fork of LJ that started when it started to get... rotten

@terdon but can Sophie fix Gorge's bugs?

@Tschallacka it does not get pulled lol

Journeyman Geek

It never quite reached the same traction - but was a useful space if you didn't want to use LJ

if you code well enough, you don't produce incomprehensible changes :p

@Shadow9 Yes. Sophie's good!

Journeyman Geek

2:35 PM

I think I have an embarassingly named account from my late teens on DW still :D

XxX_kittenSlayer69_XxX ?

@JourneymanGeek Mega Killer 2000? That's you?! :D

Journeyman Geek

lol

Some secrets are ... secret :D

lol now I'm curious :D

I need to be clear about this: none of what I'm saying is meant to change your mind on codidact's formation, how it runs, or any of that. I have no horse in that race. All I'm saying is that I see governance issues that would cause me to be concerned about the future of the project; as well as branding and positioning issues that would compel me or others to dump Stack Overflow for it.

2:37 PM

I was always Shadow Wizard, from the first chat I joined back in 2000

Speaking of old things that live forever, who here still uses whatpulse?

Journeyman Geek

@Tschallacka had it installed on my last box

@Tschallacka ICQ? wut?

And all I'm opining on is if I would try to solve a problem in this space; I'd be picky about who I'm solving it for; what the success criteria is; and how a business model ensures that this provides lasting, sustainable value.

@Tschallacka What's that?

2:37 PM

Whatpulse counts keystrokes etc...

of course, just wanted to get a different opinion

whatpulse.org/_mike_

thanks for spending time with us

so you can see how much you typed etc...

Journeyman Geek

@Tschallacka I realised the answer was "Waaaay too much"

2:38 PM

it's been around like forever

I joined there at 2005 heh

I was younger back then...

just back from Australia

I think that's the year I learned how to read.

I was 22 in that year. My 6th year anniversary in the coding world.

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical I never got good at that :D

@JourneymanGeek I mean being dyslexic will do that to you, won't it

Journeyman Geek

Quite :D

2:43 PM

Let's see, back then it was mostly Java, DirectX experiments, php and javascript.

Journeyman Geek

So I settle for just being enthuiastic about it :D

when you still had to differ between document.all

Who here remembers playing with progid:DXImageTransform.Microsoft.Matrix?

@GeorgeStocker As I said before, I think this perspective is useful and needs to be heard. I happen to disagree, but that doesn't make your points any less valid or helpful.

You know what would be cool? If the CEO would drop in here or another chatroom or on reddit, and do an AMA

2

@Tschallacka you know exactly how that'd go

a lot of hard questions he can't from a strategy perspective give an answer to

2:57 PM

That would be a waste of time for everyone involved.

ama's are only good when you're on good speaking terms

It would be next to impossible to follow a conversation (way too many threads), some people will be sure to be obnoxious and unpleasant, the whole thing would be a mess.

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