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4:51 AM
2 messages moved to Chimney - Housekeeping
 
5:04 AM
\o morning
@YvetteColomb nice..whats the name?
 
5:20 AM
Why was this reviewed as NAA in the LQP queue? It's just a congratulation post - meta.stackexchange.com/a/313212/308386
 
5:48 AM
Someone yesterday said user who have no idea about how MSE works may answer and get rep.. It happened now.
 
So google accepted both reports. 25 was a great day.
 
@NogShine yup
 
I think this question should be protected. It keeps being bumped by new users arriving from the network-wide featured link and posting an answer.
 
@ShadowWizard Leave alone MSE, they are new to SE too.
 
@NogShine might be sock
good way to get rep for sock
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog better leave that for SE staff to decide.
 
6:12 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link at end of answer: Windows Zoomit like tool from mac by supercool on apple.SE
 
NAA meta.stackexchange.com/a/313236/152859 @Bart @rene @JourneymanGeek (started with upvote, so also suspect that user is using a dirty sock.)
 
Morning
 
@ShadowWizard FYI it's CW, so they won't be earning any rep from that upvote. But a positive score will block low-quality deletion, raising a mod flag instead.
 
@ShadowWizard Don't think that's a sock
The author is pretty well known
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog nah, I'm pretty sure 6 delete actions in review also auto delete answer with score of 0.
 
6:21 AM
@ShadowWizard "a positive score"
 
0 isn't positive, I think.
afaik, positive is >0
Might be wrong of course.
 
It doesn't have one, I know.
But it did for a time.
 
heh, nuked by Adam.
 
@ShadowWizard I'm trying to come up with a pun involving lear, but I'm coming up short
 
@ShadowWizard Now that the answer is deleted, I think I should disclose that I cast the upvote. I knew what they were up to: they intentionally put their answer up as CW so that they wouldn't lose rep from downvotes, so in order to troll them I cast an upvote after the grace period ended.
 
6:26 AM
:/ not really a good use of your votes.
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog how exactly is this "trolling them"?
It just prevent other users from deleting.
@Magisch fear of lear
 
Hmm
doesn't feel that good
 
I cast an NAA flag too, and I knew that others would downvote it. I also figured that user would know that if downvotes aren't in a 5:1 ratio or higher, they'd be gaining rep, so they'd feel bad their post that they could have gained rep for was deleted.
 
But why @sonic ?
Is there any gain in deliberately antagonizing the user?
 
It's to get them to stop.
 
6:33 AM
Hey, I like your style of antagonizing! Next time I'll upvote them too...
 
I doubt they got the message... unless they think like you, which I doubt. @Sonic :)
Having the answer deleted, with proper comment, sends a clearer message.
 
Playing 3d chess mindgames with people rarely works out
 
@ShadowWizard just got the ping
 
(did I forget /s? I guess I did)
 
It relies on them thinking exactly like you and making the same logical leap as you
 
6:35 AM
@JourneymanGeek late bloomer pinger! :D
 
@ShadowWizard had an all nighter ;)
I might mute my PC and nap some more in a bit
 
@Magisch well at least now we know how to troll @Sonic, if he'll do something similar. ;)
 
hey @JourneymanGeek you're in a call center type environment, right?
 
@Magisch not really
 
I misremembered then.
 
6:36 AM
@ShadowWizard basically this...
 
I read a story about a call center where they'd have 1-4 hour downtimes between calls
 
@Magisch I think my formal title is site support engineer
 
And then the management came up with a new policy. All employees had to wait "completly distraction free" at their workplaces instead of being allowed to read a book or play games while waiting for literally hours
 
He is in a run-across-the-hall type environment if I'm not mistaken
 
cue 90% attrition in a month
 
6:37 AM
@JourneymanGeek all night sleep?
 
@JourneymanGeek That sounds fancier (and more well paid) then my title
 
@SomewhatMemorableName that was in the previous job, no?
 
Its a mix of monitoring alarm panels (mainly), backup helpdesk and a bit of follow up
@Magisch pay's ok cause hours are kinda odd, and they have a few hiring restrictions.
 
I think it got mixed... yeah...
 
@SomewhatMemorableName Previous job was IT in a school
It was a lot of running.
 
6:38 AM
@JourneymanGeek are you guys impacted by the social credit score thing in china?
 
@Magisch no
 
Singapore different in that respect?
 
@Magisch thankfully, so far
 
@JourneymanGeek Can you hear me?
 
It would get ugly if it was considering the sheer amount of data the government has about us
 
6:39 AM
That social credit score thing sounds like someone plucked the idea right out of 1984
 
and I'd have to leave
Or go into politics
 
tempted to ping loo...
 
@Shadow Would you mind asking Journeyman Geek if I'm still on ignore?
 
@Magisch social credit score?? Sounds like the acceptance rate...
 
I would actually, he's an adult who can make his own decisions as to who to ignore
@ShadowWizard It's actually worse then that. It's a credit score type thing with the additional catch that you lose points for "unsocial behavior" like playing too much video games or political dissidency or littering and stuff. And they want to tie your eligibility to work certain jobs or to travel or to leave the country to it.
 
6:42 AM
@ShadowWizard its pretty much worse than that. I actually feel its pretty dystopian - its almost like that episode of the orville ....
 
Thats why I said it's plucked right out of 1984
 
@Magisch and its somewhat opaque and if your score is too low, there's no way out
 
Yep
 
Ah, the book, not the year.
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog either you are, or he has other reasons to not respond... assuming it's only here, you can try starting new room with him if you got anything important to discuss.
 
6:42 AM
The idea is to force people to be "normal" for the government's definition of normal
 
@Magisch which is creepy
 
You don't even know what could get you penalized. The end goal is to make people walk on eggshells and cease the many inventive forms of protest against the communist party that have surfaced.
 
@Magisch like talking about winnie the poo.
 
@Magisch oh... well, sounds like China.
 
It works on the same behavior guiding principle as the question ban on SO. The exact metrics are unknown to prevent people from "gaming" it (i.E maintaining their anti-government stance without losing points)
 
6:44 AM
@ShadowWizard We had a little bit of a fight a few days ago, in which he said he's going to ignore me. I was just wondering if that position still stands even after I apologize to him (which of course he can't hear).
 
@Magisch yes and no
 
And there's always a small disclaimer that "rules can be changed at any time"...
 
@JourneymanGeek I suspected you'd take issue with that. I don't mean to suggest the question ban is immoral though
 
You can get out of a question ban by contributing, and we help where we can
Now, if you could fix your social score, but IDK, helping out in an old folks home, or singing the east is red every morning for a month....
its fairer
 
The difference broadly speaking is that SO isn't an evil dystopian dictatorship with ambitions of mass control
 
6:45 AM
Yup
We're just trying to balance between quality and accessibility.
 
You can use tools to influence behavior for good or for evil
 
SO far as a mod...
 
SE uses them to nudge people into making higher quality contributions, nothing wrong with that
 
I've had half a dozen people or so ask me how to get out a question ban
 
and yet, many users feel entitled to feel like a king in SE...
 
6:46 AM
One managed it.
It was a great day.
@SomewhatMemorableName their expectations are a bit flawed
they want to have a space to ask anything, and somehow instantly get an answer.
 
The difference between this and china is that you can choose not to contribute to SE
It's not a life and death situation and your quality of life doesn't depend on it
 
Its easier to leave a website than a country ;)
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog well, IMO new room where you'll repost the apology is your best bet, i.e . what I'd do.
 
If your social credit is gone then you can't even leave
Or travel
 
6:48 AM
and you can't leave a country if you can't get a passport.
 
Or get any non menial job
 
@ShadowWizard Ignores are per server, so if I create a new room here it won't work.
 
From the subtext - @ShadowWizard @Magisch is ano asking if he's ignored?
 
@Magisch and probably jail, no?
 
And some of the criteria like "playing too much video games" is just blatant social engineering
 
6:48 AM
@JourneymanGeek yup
 
@JourneymanGeek Yes.
 
And pleading to be forgiven
 
And I believe that they're permanent, so I'll still remain ignored until he decides to undo it.
 
Yes - in both senses of it.
 
@JourneymanGeek I very much agree. Re question ban, I saw a meta post saying that he was an 8-year old member on SO, then got Q-banned on another site, and they just didn't understand why.
 
6:49 AM
And the ignoring will continue until I'm happy with his behaviour, and I feel I can engage productively with him.
(cause he asked on the other server, and I choose not to answer)
 
How will he know if he's happy with my behavior, if he can't see it?
 
I'm not getting involved in that @JourneymanGeek . You know what you're doing and you'll know when you want to unmute
 
Thank you.
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog oh, if he chose "ignore this user everywhere" it's true, but maybe he just chose "hide posts" which is per room.
 
anyway
@Magisch question bans are opaque to us too.
We don't know the criteria.
 
6:50 AM
They have to be
I'm pretty sure you could get close to finding it out with cross referencing and some SEDE trickery
Since you guys can see who is banned and who's on the brink
 
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog he can still see it in transcript so I assume he sometimes check it.
 
But its pretty easy to get immune to it - I was made aware of a user with a certain amount of rep who asked terrible questions and didn't get qbanned.
 
For instance I'm reasonably confident I know almost exactly how the serial voting script works. Not literally exactly but quite closely.
 
@Magisch Its vaguely amusing we don't know when it triggers.
One of my users let me know he got serial DVed on SU and SO - I passed on word to the mods there...
then basically... erm....
ya, handled it manually with mod messages and such
 
I'm wondering, if a rogue employee were to go into the code and reveal the ban algorithm to everyone, does SE have a backup plan in place?
 
6:53 AM
Probably changing the thresholds and reworking it a bit
If you think about it, exactly knowing how it works wouldn't help in most cases
 
@Magisch Can it catch voting done over a period of time?
 
Since it's impossible to precisely control community reaction to a post
 
@Magisch It would help a user who wants to game the system
 
and tbh, there's a few people who can/do guess the thresholds. Most people who are impulsive enough to do destructive things or try to upvote themselves are not very bright
 
It's already commonly known that getting downvotes, getting closed, and getting deleted are bad things for the qban algo
 
6:55 AM
they're the sort of folks who spend more effort and brainpower cheating in an exam over actually studying
 
So the only thing unknown is thresholds and exact weights of each
 
Encryption's algorithm is public, and yet it's still hard to crack them. Conclusion: the post-ban algorithm uses encryption.
 
There was a time when SE didn't disclose the review ban algorithm, and a user did a lot of testing to reverse-engineer it, and released it publicly. SE kept the same algorithm, and disclosed it publicly.
 
@Magisch and its entirely possible its tweaked behind the scenes
I'd be a little surprised if all the data sciencey folks did was analyse surveys
and we do know that a few of the CMs do actually do some statisticy stuff on SO to try to work out the best way to deal with current issues
 
They pay data scientists more than they pay their developers
 
6:58 AM
But it's a fact that CM knows when 1 upvote could get the user out of post-ban
 
@SomewhatMemorableName though
the point isn't about getting a user out of a post ban now
Its also about helping the user contribute, and avoid post bans in the long term
 
@JourneymanGeek Surely.
Also, me thinks that when you're spending this much effort and obviously not low intelligence gaming the q ban it ought to be easier to just ask well recieved questions instead
 
@Magisch yup
 
or learn to use google so you don't have to ask so many dupes
 
Dupes don't even count for the post ban, IIRC.
 
7:01 AM
If they're downvoted, the downvotes count
 
@Magisch tbh, the ability and inclination to do research is pretty much the most important lifeskill one can get in this day and age ;)
 
Especially if you're a software developer or any kind of IT person
Learning how to use google is easily the biggest productivity boost you can possibly get
 
@Magisch The script is easy enough to guess when you look at enough things. The other things besides the script are what really help, but those are even more secret ;)
 
actually there's a lot of fields where its helpful.
 
@Mithrandir If you're talking mod tools, they're easy to piece together when you collate mentions here and there
 
7:02 AM
@Magisch This is why I enjoy searching for [story-identification] questions on e.g. Scifi.SE - it's fun and I get Google practice ;P
@Magisch pretty sure there are a few that have never seen mention, especially the ones that nobody knows how to use
 
It's been striking just how much being able to properly research vs not makes a difference when programming
You take like 10% the time of other people for new tasks
 
@Magisch funny story that.
I dropped out of uni, twice
 
@Mithrandir Might be the case, but I know that for instance mod tools to find serial voting aren't as good as I thought when I started
 
The first time - basically the single most useful thing that came out of it was we had a library skills course which basically taught you how to google effectively.
 
And i'm not going to elaborate beyond that because I like my account undestroyed...
 
7:04 AM
heh
 
It seems dumb, but that course basically was the single, most useful thing I've ever learnt.
 
@JourneymanGeek We had a similar course on academic research
 
@Magisch funny thing is the place I eventually had my degree?
 
We're in the information age now, where a lot of stuff is just there for the pickings if you know where to look
 
the coursework on plagiarism and acedemic honesty... was plagiarised from other sources
@Magisch precisely
 
7:06 AM
You can get paid (well, might I add) for nothing but some logical reasoning skills and an ability to find things
 
and search engines are getting easier and arguably better over time
 
@Magisch I'm getting paid for speaking a language! :D
 
aren't you like 16 ?
student teacher?
 
@Magisch ...yes
As of *checks watch*
 
Or are you one of those people with no chill that have a college degree at 15 because school bores them?
 
7:07 AM
lol
 
Meh, I'm taking a high school equivalency test later at some point and then just be done with school
in a couple months, probably
could only schedule it after i turned 16
 
Heh
Do you plan on becoming a software dev?
 
no :P
editor
 
shame too you'd be good at it
 
@Magisch not everyone's cut out to be a software dev :(
I'd rather be working with/on hardware but the jobs just arn't there
 
user310756
7:10 AM
@SurajRao Storm
 
@JourneymanGeek Yeah but mith has that logical thinking you need (I think, anyways)
Morning Yvette
 
@Magisch and I suppose the language skills
 
@Magisch I... muck around in the terminal with bots, but I'm not great at doing the actual coding
 
I'm just slightly annoyed over the vague cargo cultiness over software dev :(
 
I get you
Most of the people in my apprentice class were there because they "heard software dev pays well"
 
7:11 AM
Tech would probably be better off if folks remembered other factors outside $$$ and code ;)
 
Turns out most of them didn't like software dev at all
If you're not into it it quickly becomes a boring chore
 
lol
You need to be crazy passionate to survive in tech.
 
things change way faster than pretty much any other profession.
 
But my current place has a ton of folks who seem burnt out
and apparently the average "lifespan" of a L1 is 2-3 years ;p
Better than my last place
 
Really depressing to see people throw away 3 years of their life to get a cert they can't do anything with because programming bores them hard
 
7:14 AM
No IT guy has ever stayed for more than 6 months
other than the facilities guy
@Magisch and that's kind of a problem no one realises
Folks who'll thrive in techie environments need to get the push/support they need, over the whole "we need more numbers of $class"
unless you want to actually account for attrition ;)
 
@JourneymanGeek And then they don't get unemployment because they're so employable
And then they work in IT hating themselves and their jobs
 
7:48 AM
Well, it seem pretty obvious to me that, if a profession pays well, there is a reason for that, likely a shortage of people who have the training, experience and natural ability to actually do the work effectively. If anyone could do it, it would not pay well.
 
@MartinJames on the other hand a lot of IT is cost centric, and a lot of it is aimed at numbers rathert than... well training, experience and natural ability.
and if you go into something simply cause "it pays well" ... well...
a few folks will find they love it, quite a lot will not.
 
Let's write if off on dedication but it is not what I would be doing during a "vacation"
 
and not everyone has the opportunity to not worry about the sunk cost of time and money
 
@rene You ever have a bit of downtime where you can't think of something fun to do?
 
@rene tempted to ping adam and tell him to go back on vacation ;)
 
7:54 AM
Adam might have one of those moments :p
 
I guess that is a sign that you love your job
 
tbh if I worked at stackexchange I couldn't really keep myself from doing it either
small housekeeping tasks here like this feel strangely rewarding
 
@Magisch possibly
but no matter how awesome your job is, you're sometimes going to need to decompress
I've actually heard that off a few CMs, I can't remember who.
 
probably different if you're a CM (doing this stuff literally all day) or a developer
 
Well, technically, those are the 'fun' jobs. And its probably easier to 'switch off' from an office job.
 
8:08 AM
@JourneymanGeek I resisted the temptation.
@Magisch No, I have not.
 
@rene Hmm
I suppose a plant is always concerned with photosynthesis
 
@Magisch I do the stuff I want to do professionally for fun , but there's very few jobs where I'd go "oooh, lets do the thing on vacation"
 
@JourneymanGeek Same here. It'd be different though if I worked somewhere where I really agreed with and was invested in the company mission
Right now at no point do I feel "Boy I'd like to write some ERP software right now"
 
(granted current job's impossible to do that anyway. ;p)
@Magisch but you would write software for fun no?
 
Sure
minecraft server plugins and I like to hang around charcoal (not explicitly writing software but still)
I made a website for a friend once because it felt like fun
 
8:20 AM
heh. charcoal is a properass software development project ;)
 
@JourneymanGeek That even those who aren't really developers can help with ;)
 
@Mithrandir quite
 
@JourneymanGeek my role in charcoal doesn't include full on software dev though
 
@Magisch no, but there's a lot to software dev that's not sitting down and coding.
 
I like to spout ideas and give feedback and flag spam and create blacklist patterns
And explain things to newcomers :p
 
8:23 AM
I like to try to figure out new regex patterns and create abuse reports for spam sites :P
 
 
2 hours later…
9:57 AM
For SEDE specific questions we now have chat.meta.stackexchange.com/rooms/1223/data-explorer-sede as well.
 
10:39 AM
5 messages moved to Chimney
 
11:32 AM
4 messages moved to Chimney
 
Which is the community, questions on CFD (Computational Fluid Dynamics) would be suitable on? physics, engg., computational sci...
 
@JourneymanGeek decompress?
 
@Pandya Depends on the specificity
Might even be graphicdesign.SE
 
@Magisch problem with simulation. may be wrong boundary condition or flux calculation.
 
uff
I guess computational science SE sounds reasonable? Physics maybe?
You should consult site regulars
 
11:47 AM
ok. thanks
 
@ShadowWizard destress. Not work etc etc :p
A lot of SO staff cook or do carpentry cause... It's not the same as their work?
 
I know shog cooks a lot
 
12:42 PM
@Magisch I know they eat a lot of stuff. I'm not sure how much of that they cook themselves though :P
 
As does Tim
 
1:02 PM
I haven't cooked anything for three days - can't cope with hot food ATM. This may be longest I've ever gone without pizza. Still, it's proof that I'm not physically addicted:)
 
@MartinJames I think I've gone years without pizza now. I didn't have hot food either, it's just too hot for hot food. We're mostly eating salads and sandwiches and ice cream and fruit
 
I ate spicy indian curry yesterday
Yes, I am a glutton for punishment
 
@Magisch Apparently that's good though, cause it makes you sweat and cool down when that evaporates...
(but that might just as well be an urban myth)
 
@Tinkeringbell Same here. Last time in Lidl, I picked up three tubs of ice cream and got nasty looks, presumably for apparent hoarding:)
 
@MartinJames 'tubs'... how big is a tub :P Because I don't know any other tubs than bathtubs, and if you picked three full bathtubs of ice cream that's hoarding :P
 
1:09 PM
@Tinkeringbell lol, a tub is 2L only.
 
@MartinJames only :P Most ice cream here comes in 1L or smaller ;)
 
@Tinkeringbell We need industrial quantities to stay sane. 30.5 outside now:(
 
@MartinJames at 14:00, the coolest spot in The Netherlands was at 31.6, and the worst at 36,5
We're expecting to hit 37-39 later today
 
Slow friday today
 
Yeah. Still another hour till I can go.
 
1:19 PM
10 minutes for me
 
It seems to me that whenever I post a new question it has 2 views from the start. Even on one of the (if not the) least busy sites. What does that mean?
 
Bots? ;p
 
@AnneDaunted One is from you.
 
@AnneDaunted The other might be smokey
 
@TimPost That makes 1 view
 
1:29 PM
Does getting a question via API count as view?
 
The other one is probably smokey, or something else scraping the live question feed on SE.com (though, I think Smokey does and API call and I don't know if that counts as a view)
 
Thanks, that makes sense
 
@TimPost Smokey does queued API calls per site (gets the Q-ID from the realtime feed and then grabs the posts via API in batches)
 
Good to know there is at least one ... entity reading what I write
 
I wonder if Tim ever uses post it notes
 
1:31 PM
I do, in fact.
 
Then other people could say "These are Tim Post's Post It Notes"
Is tim post your real name or just online persona?
It seems like it'd be a goldmine for name related puns
 
Or, when I'm in NYC and people make such a production of loudly asking HEY DID YOU READ TIM POST'S POST? Yeah, that's never happened before.
 
You sound ... frustrated
I'm sure it's all in good nature
 
If your parents unwittingly named you after a future HTTP verb, you'd sound frustrated, too.
 
I just realized
You can make Tim Post requests
Ok I'll stop if it frustrates you
 
1:35 PM
Heck, in this strange place, <form method="shog" works, too.
 
No need to deliberately antagonize
 
@Magisch You are a room owner now? (just so I know that i need to be nice to you ;-))
 
I am
I wonder what a shog method form does
 
Please all stop posting puns about Tim Post's name - else Tim Post will post a post notice to make it stop.
 
Probably something specific
 
1:36 PM
@Magisch eldritch horror.
 
I've never understood name jokes, people always think they're funny and you've never heard them before...
 
@Tinkeringbell quite
 
there is only one official approved shog meme.
this one
Jun 22 '16 at 13:32, by Derpy
@ShadowWizard Thinking about it, a small Castlevania like game where you have to dodge flying Shog heads could be a good April Fool joke
 
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