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8:00 PM
So that's how the queue went from 600 to 0 in twenty minutes flat. Everyone's skipping everything. — BoltClock ♦ 1 hour ago
Skip wouldn't de-queue an item, would it?
Seems like people don't realize just commenting handles it (or at least thats how I read the original post). If you need the OP to clarify, leave a comment. Of course if its just crap, thats another story. — BradleyDotNET 1 hour ago
Um. A comment could be just as well left from Triage. It's not a great workflow for someone to identify a missing element of the question, and then push it to another place, where someone else will look for what's missing again, and comment.
How did he mark this as status-completed without a diamond?
designers are magic
8:10 PM
@AstroCB I can't find a reference, but I remember reading somewhere that the internal flag is_employee enables that.
@FamousBlueRaincoat the problem with a queue like this is that it's nearly impossible to stop folks from fixating on what they can't do.
Actually, the flag isn't entirely internal; it's available through the API /users/ method.
"Here's a queue where you can help people by editing."
"But I want to comment! I don't see how an edit can help."
"Then skip. This is for editing."
"I know the answer! Can I answer here?"
"Maybe I can vote. Voting's good, right?"
"I know! Maybe I can answer in the comments, and then upvote those?"
"Edi... sure. whatever."
Just replace the queue with a button that takes the user to a random post with needs_improvement flag. Or better yet, make that flag a search parameter.
8:17 PM
Few people are willing to sit and edit-edit-edit posts on disparate topics, giving each proper attention.
If only we could just get everyone else out of the queue.
...maybe I need more exclamation points
(Trivia: 85% skip rate for HIqueue so far - a new record!)
My point is, it's not really review. It's a time consuming task that won't be properly done 20 times in a row. The queue format does not fit it.
strictly-speaking, it's a work queue
there should be someone serving gruel
We'll see. I proposed dropping First Posts & folks said they would miss the editing - so now they get to put their actions where their gruel-loving mouths are.
8:20 PM
what is a waffle if not pattern-fried gruel?
good honest worker food, none of that fancy pancake nonsense
pattern fried gruel that contains eggs and Sodium bicarbonate
or yeast
Compare two workflows:
(A) I think this needs an edit, and I'm going to edit it.
(B) I think this needs an edit, and I'm going to tell someone to edit it, for a reason I won't tell them. Then I will be given a bunch of posts that someone else thinks should be edited, for a reason they didn't tell me.
@Shog9 not generally
8:22 PM
depends on how long you let the gruel sit out
(I prefer yeast waffles)
@Shog9 Good honest worker food == lots of steak
8:23 PM
steak n eggs
w/ potatoes
but eggs are gross.
Unless you take the time to fry them
or boil them
Q: Flagging a question for improvement without voting to close

Jon SkeetJust thinking about my post about describing close reasons it strikes me that there are two very distinct kind of questions which are currently being closed: Questions which you believe really shouldn't be open, and you'd like to see deleted eventually Questions which aren't good in their curre...

read discussion
@Frank little bit of salt they're fine
maybe some horseradish
Aha, just came in to see the new queue up and running! Thanks, @Shog9!
cheers - have some gruel
huh, I answered that. And then directly contradicted myself in an answer to a related question.
...I've been here too long.
@Shog9 skunks love eggs. I love steak.
and ice cream.
and coffee.
and waffles
8:39 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] URL in title: Question about lemma 3.1 of :eudml.org/doc/125333 by Vrouvrou on math.stackexchange.com
Me internet brokey :(
... are you going to contradict yourself again, @bjb568?
"My internet is broken" - said the person using the internet to communicate
If not contradictory, then ironic.
Meh, me ISP suk. Coz they all do. But LTEs worky
Q: Should I allow or forbid my son to visit the education of a religion that I do not share?

whatI'm an Agnostic. When the topic comes to religion, I try to explain to my seven year old son what religious persons believe and why I don't share that belief. Until recently, he shared my scepticism. Were we live (Germany), pupils in elementary school must visit two hours per week of either reli...

Ugh, what a toxic environment.
8:52 PM
The Help and Improvement queue is going to be immediately overrun, isn't it?
I don't see how schools teaching religion isn't a basic human rights violation.
@AlexisKing overrun by what?
@bjb568 By questions needing improvement!
Oh, overflow'd
Hm… That might happen.
@AlexisKing no. There's really no need to keep things in there forever.
They should age pretty quickly. I mean, what's the urgency of editing a week old question with an accepted answer? It could benefit from an edit, sure -- but no need to stay in the queue.
8:54 PM
@Shog9 Then won't a tiny fraction of them actually get reviewed?
@AlexisKing yup
That's a tiny fraction that wouldn't get reviewed without the queue.
@Shog9 I guess that's true.
We'll also encourage answerers to edit, and especially askers to edit if they return.
But... if they don't... If no one answers, and no one cares... They'll drift out to sea and be lost in the great swirl of detritus slowly breaking down and sinking beneath the waves.
Something like a banner over the question (this has been marked as needing improvement?) That would make sense.
Ooh DD is so going to have a "could this question be improved?" thing after answering.
8:57 PM
@FamousBlueRaincoat yeah, something like that
I'm not convinced that the tiny fraction is actually a benefit. The time spent reading and deciding to click Skip is time not spent doing anything else.
That's a personal choice
If the front page had a smallish tab "questions needing improvement", the personal choice would be easier.
Realistically, that's usually /questions?sort=newest
Almost every question could use a bit of attention; if you specifically want to play Mother Teresa Among The Lepers, well, now you can.
@Shog9 I see the rationale behind the decision to make edit reasons required in the H&I queue, but I'm already feeling frustrated that I have to explain "fixed your spelling & grammar" over and over again.
okay, how the hell did this get marked "should be improved"?
9:04 PM
@AlexisKing yeah... it wasn't actually supposed to be required. Bit of a subtle mistake there: you're supposed to be able to enter either 0 or > 20 characters.
will be fixed.
Ah, perfect, thank you.
Question about the queue: Do questions with answers still sit in the Help/Improvement queue or are they kicked out ahead of time? So will I ever encounter a question in there that already has an answer?
@KevinBrown I encountered one with an answer, though it had 0 votes, so that sometimes counts as "unanswered" in the SE definition.
@AlexisKing Someone was out of close votes.
@AstroCB This is why I think Triage should boot you out if you're out of close votes.
9:08 PM
I'm getting a lot of questions from yesterday, so I could see there being a possibility of it already being answered
@Shog9 Not sure if this goes unnoticed due to the high volume of answers and comments and that meta post, but you have a link to the dev tier in the help guidance.
@rene ha!
9:18 PM
@SmokeDetector ignore
@rene Post ignored; alerts about it will no longer be posted.
Six downvotes; I love it.
I should have added a tl;dr.
If a question would be put "on hold" because the OP needs to add some stuff (like missing code, for example), does it still make sense to edit it within the queue?
Normally I read "needs some editing" as "by OP". Are those unsalvageable?
@JanDvorak The Triage "details" still say "Should Be Improved for questions where edits by the author or others would result in a question that is clear and answerable"
9:33 PM
@KevinBrown Usually, if there's not enough information, there are lots of other problems with the post that need to be fixed, as well.
... but then they end up in HIQ
2 hours ago, by Famous Blue Raincoat
I think this addition is going to make clear that "Unsalvageable" is too strong a word for the third option in Triage, and that Should be Improved is too vague.
Until/unless something changes, better to put "OP should edit things" into Unsalvageable instead.
what happens to a question that can't be answered without edits from the OP if it doesn't get edits from the OP?
9:35 PM
Then it stays unanswered with low views and eventually gets cleaned up by the roomba?
It should be closed and roomba'd
@Shog9 It gets stupid answers: maybe it's that typo in line 20 ... no it's not... then I don't know.
all of those CAN happen
"unsalvageable" should read "except by OP"
what if we could... put a finger on one side of the plate, tip it in a certain direction
maybe keep the number of views as low as possible
9:37 PM
until OP comes?
until something comes
something that cares about the question
Roomba, I assume?
Roomba doesn't care.
either because they wrote it, or because it's sitting there looking crappy & getting no other attention
Google might notice and not be happy
9:39 PM
the problem with closing these is that closing chews up an awful lot of a limited resource
And there are a lot of these questions
Q: Off topic questions have to be cleared out of the way, but NOT via closure

Your Common SenseRecently I ran across a particular question on Stack Overflow. Despite its being quite easy to answer, it has got no answer yet (and most likely won't, as questions older than a hour hardly receive any attention anymore). Besides that, the OP told me that he wants an answer from a professional de...

The roomba surely gets hungry, I imagine it might care a little. So, if we would normally close the question for "unclear" or "add some code pls", then it should really be marked "unsalveagable" in the triage queue?
> And it seems I have found the reason: it's the number of [awful quality] questions that prevents a professional from coming across the question in question.
Ooh, roomba. Which reminds me @Shog9: anything happen to that roomba proposal of yours?
I wish the meta post made this more clear.
1. The questions marked as Needing Improvement are going to be semi-ignored (suppressed from view)
2. If you really care, edit in NI but otherwise ignore. "Skip" = "ignore".
So here's a thought... A question ends up in the helper queue; no one edits it (because they can't). The OP never returns. It never gets answered. Why not just delete those?
9:44 PM
Sounds like a new button
Instead of trying to squeeze ever more intelligence out of some nebulous combination of chicken entrails, views and votes, just look for things that no one cares about.
And stop trying to make people care about things we have good reason to think are crap.
What if said crap gets answered and thus never deleted?
Then remind the answerer that, if they want their answer to matter, they should edit.
@JanDvorak Then wouldn't that fail the "no ones cares about" part?
@Shog9 great plan!
9:46 PM
@KevinBrown If so, there's no such thing as questions nobody cares about
Answered, in Stack Exchange's Humpty Dumpty Dictionary, means "got an answer that someone cared about."
OP long gone? No one else sees it or thinks it worth voting on? It ain't answered.
except upvotes mean "somebody saw it and thought it was true"
awful lot of answers that don't even get that
Then there's that chat room that thinks answering off-topic questions is useful
(and that chat flags are nothing but a nuisance and nothing is truly offensive)
@JanDvorak Stray upvotes on worthless answers to closable posts keep Roombatron500 employed.
9:50 PM
[ SmokeDetector ] All-caps title: HELLPPPP MEEEEEE by user13079 on anime.stackexchange.com
@SmokeDetector tp
@KevinBrown Registered question as true positive: added title to the Bayesian doctype 'bad'.
So, twice so far I think I've found questions which really didn't need improvements, the opposite issue of what most of us have seen. Maybe even just linking to meta.stackoverflow.com/q/287024/359284 from the help might improve the sorting?
@Roombatron5000 overtook @HoboSapiens for #5 on the all-time SO downvoters list. In other news, Quentin is about to take #1 from Wooble! Stay tuned.
10:08 PM
user image
cat gotta eat
Aww, already used all teh starz :(
stars obo @bjb
What's an obo?
10:28 PM
or best offer
A: Categorized views in past flags (helpful/declined/disputed)

nicaelI think it's just the great idea. I made a script which will load all of your helpful/ declined/ disputed flags. To use, first go to your flags stats. Then run one of the following scripts, but replace {your-user-id} with your user id. To show declined: javascript:var pn=$(".pager.fr > a").le...

Anyone wanna test?
> on behalf of
@nicael http://meta.stackexchange.com/users/flag-summary/current is broken
Oh, I know already
Q: Current user flag summary link

Zach SaucierCurrently we can link to the current user's page (i.e. when a user clicks the link it'll link to their own page) by using http://SE-site.com/users/current which is great! We can also link to specific tabs by using .../current?tab=reputation - also great. However, it'd be lovely if we could link...

10:44 PM
A: Help Improve The Help & Improvement Queue!

Kevin BrownI just finished my 20 reviews for today (the fifth person!) and I can sum up my thoughts on the new queue pretty quickly. In theory, it's a great queue that will allow questions that can be improved to create a clear, understandable question be improved. In reality, it's full of badly triaged...

@KevinBrown "Allow questions to be pushed back to the triage queue"... maybe it's better to just drop them out if they are skipped by ... 5 editors, say. If it's not going to get improved, forget it. And by then the question already had enough views so that if it's egregiously bad, it would be VTCed by someone.
@hichris123 done and done
cv-pls "gimme teh codez" stackoverflow.com/q/28828985/1234256
10:58 PM
A non-existent close reason.
@FamousBlueRaincoat But the queue is for editing questions to improve them. If an unsalvageable question has made it to the queue, there was an issue when triaging it.
The issue is that questions that need an edit by the OP get to a queue where we are supposed to edit it (rather than just tell the OP what to add)
@FamousBlueRaincoat "too broad"
11:02 PM
@KevinBrown Sure, but the issue is that some reviewer is confused or careless. So they miscategorized. Now you saw it and identified it as unsalvagable; no need to send to triage again, just take an action on the post (VTC).
It'd be great to show the post again to the same reviewer saying "hey, this was unsalvageable", but that's not going to happen.
* On February 27, Jason C came back to SO
* Yesterday he came to meta.SO
* When will he arrive here?
2 minutes before noon.
11:22 PM
11:33 PM
@HoboSapiens but it looks to be a helpful post, and leave some pointers
11:58 PM
I really want to answer your question about why we don't run on the cloud like reddit but the page keeps 503ing.
@Frank This sucks, btw.
@Frank And by "this", I think you know what I mean.

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