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9:00 PM
@LaszloPapp 'save the site'? I think the SE network is doing okay - if people do not like an aspect of how it is run, it is up to them to choose to not participate.
UV-D: let us say, I have a different opinion.
Once again, downvotes happen. What is the big deal? They are fake points. If you see no reason for the downvote, and you've received several upvotes, just move on. Or ultimately ask Meta if they understand what might explain downvotes. Especially in the absence of upvotes.
Bart: I have one -1 answer which I got lately.
it was accepted, and then upvoted.
and then it got -2 without much reasoning.
and still the selected answer.
@LaszloPapp I am not stating an opinion, I am stating an observation
Great. So you have been helpful to at least the OP and a voter. So...
9:02 PM
Well... I'm always sad to see good members of the community leave, especially now that I'm an employee. However, downvoting is a pretty core feature of the platform; not requiring an explanation for downvoting is something that the community has decided on after a great deal of thought and discussion; and we do have mechanisms for people who are actively "cheating" the reputation system.
UV-D: I consider that an opinion as my observations are different.
@Pops well, most of the time ;)
Bart: I do not wanna be helpful to one person when SO is checked by millions.
Bart: clearly a -1 for an accepted answer is bad reputation for the site
moreover, it frigthens away people from the potentially correct answer.
I wanna be useful for many people.
that is why I came to SO.
That is the only reason.
If your answer is really good, it will ultimately reach a positive score. The occasional outlier notwithstanding.
And you can't please them all
I disagree with that.
9:05 PM
@LaszloPapp not really - it is one question out of millions, and it is good that you helped that person - and many more over time
my answer is ultimately good if you ask around on the technical mailing list.
yet, it is now a -1.
Why aren't those people voting it up?
I am the developer of the stuff.
for what I commented.
So? Nothing prevents it from gaining votes in the future. And if it's really all that good, it will.
because they dislike SO, they are not here.
no, I doubt it.
in fact, I see a mass effect on SO at several places as well.
9:07 PM
Mass effect?
Do they dislike the system or the users? Both? Something else?
This is the reason why I joined SO a bit more than three weeks ago for Saturday helping out of my leisure time:
1) Be useful with my expertise for many people
2) Clean up all the crap available on this site
Bart is describing how the system is supposed to work, and when smart people are the ones doing the voting, that's how it does work.
Pops: they dislike the SO model how it operates.
that includes users, too, yes, but the main problem is the "management" for them.
Care to expand on that? What do they dislike about the SO model? How do they think it operates?
(And are they former users?)
9:09 PM
Pops: it is clearly not smart people doing the voting at times. That is why many think it is not really about meritocracy either.
yes, they say it is democracy, not democracy
and it is not merit, just popularity what is happening around votes.
Popularity in what sense?
vote is popularity
not merit.
anyone can vote up, pretty much.
Still, popularity in what sense? Are you saying there is no correlation between the quality of answers users provide and the reputation they have?
9:12 PM
anyway, I am planning to submit two proposals before my leave or break:
1) Mandatory reason for downvote even if just +1 to the previous.
2) Answer vote
Might I advice you to really think about the first proposal and reconsider it?
Or at least do extensive research
Don't rehash what's out there
Bart: correct, quality is far from merit, indeed.
Otherwise you're going to end up disgruntled
Bart see my selected answer with -1 as the developer of the stuff, the person behind it.
Link please
9:14 PM
Bart: I reconsidered this many times already.
but I feel the same pain from day to days, and I am getting frustrated, that must be a sign something is not going right.
Yet I don't think you're getting what I'm advising and why I'm advising it.
And perhaps you getting frustrated is not so much a sign of the site needing to change, but you needing to step back a bit and not taking all of this so seriously.
Bart: I am not going to b disgruntled for much ... today was a fun spoiling day for me here, and I am seriously considering the leaving, at least for a bit. That is probably unfortunate for the site when experts leave though.
@LaszloPapp feel free to post what you wish, but as Bart has said, this topic has come up many times and unless it is groundbreaking new and profound - it will get downvoted (=disagreement on meta) and ultimately not implemented.
What Bart is saying is that if you just charge ahead, people on Meta will say "this is the same as a dozen other proposals, you didn't do any research/show any respect for our community and just dumped it here" whereas if you have mostly the same point but can show that you did your homework/made an effort, you'll get a much better reception.
I hate to see any users leave. Whether they are a newbie or an expert.
9:17 PM
UV-D: Well, the history is full of such stuff, like enumeration downvoted several times in python, and then accepted.
UV-D: It is not like it is rare that something is discussed many times, and then once it is not just accepted.
Bart: this site is for experts
Bart: so obviously, they matter, inherently.
No @LaszloPapp, not really. It's not for the utter beginner. We don't teach how to program. But it's not a site purely for experts
And without questions there are no answers.
Pops: disagreement will not solve the issues happening daily around downvotes, and which demotivating many people.
And even if we wanted it to be a site for experts, reality has caught up with us.
Bart: it is the site mission that is for experts....
expert questions and answers
experts cannot only answer, but also ask.
SO wanna be a site for experts and professionals.
I get the impression you have this idealistic idea of what SO would be in a perfect world. Guess what, we're too big. We do all we can to maintain a level of quality, and we do so reasonably well. But you've got to realize how big this site is and how impractical that makes certain operations.
9:21 PM
there was a thread with this reasoning where IMHO the whole was closed unrightfully.
Bart: that is a no excuse for not trying to improve serious shortcomings.
Once again, link please.
go through my history, it is full of like that
@LaszloPapp And we're trying to do so every single day. What do you think Meta is trying to achieve?
I do not wanna start pasting out.
we would sit here for the whole weekend.
I'm sorry, but I won't go through your history to find the one thing you're talking about. If you present a case, present the case.
9:23 PM
Bart: exactly my point, meta should not discourage people from trying to improve it, but quite the opposite.
How is Meta discouraging it?
I get the impression you have this idealistic idea of what SO would be in a perfect world. Guess what, we're too big. We do all we can to maintain a level of quality, and we do so reasonably well. But you've got to realize how big this site is and how impractical that makes certain operations." -> that is a discouragement in my book.
@LaszloPapp that is cold hard fact
keep in mind that is just my view. I'm a single users. I'm not SO/SE nor the community
Some might agree, some will disagree
But with thousands of questions coming in each day, with plenty more votes on them, you're putting a big burden on the site pretty fast if all votes have to be moderated.
it does not matter who you are ... I kinda expect encouragement for ideas from anyone.
especially towards newcomers like me.
9:25 PM
You are free to present your idea. I am free to tell you what I think of them
And my meta experience tells me you should be careful about how you present it
Because you can say anything on Meta, if you are constructive
Perhaps the moderation model of SO is broken then.
if it cannot take up with the good way.
But it will not tolerate duplicates of duplicates of duplicates.
@LaszloPapp everyone's ideas are pretty much considered in the same way - whether they are new or veteran
well, moderators do not care about duplicates so often.
@Bart inception dupes?
9:26 PM
that is another issue with it.
I saw reports marked duplicated without them being eventually duplicated.
What? How do moderators not care about duplicates?
Yeah, more or less @UV-D :)
Perhaps, we should stop it because the negative experience just keeps coming up.
Negative experience?
@Bart I wonder if there is a record of how many dupes of dupes of dupes etc there are...
and how many broken duplicated...
9:28 PM
I'm sure Shog9 will have some glorious graph @UV-D.
where the report is not actually duplicated....
@Bart I must get that graph!
should I really start giving threads for mishandled or used stuff?
What are you saying @LaszloPapp? That there are questions closed as duplicates when they should not be? Or that there are questions that should be, but are not?
Welcome to reality.
I can, but we will sit here for really long.
and I have only spend 20 hours maybe on SO altogether
maybe 24
9:30 PM
So? Get enough privileges to help us out.
We get thousands of questions each day
Up to 7k at the moment?
Also, this is sad that comments are accepted like "foo is crap" without any explanation and when someone tries to help with flagging it, it is declined.
That takes an awful lot of community work and moderation to keep it as good as it currently is.
@LaszloPapp Link me to such an example please
If comments are truly offensive, they will be handled
Either by the community, or a moderator.
Bart: privileges with full of downvotes with correct answers?
@LaszloPapp often posts are flagged by all of us community members... I am flagging low quality and gimme the codez questions on SO as we speak... erm.. type
I hope you see the chicken egg problem.
Bart: I am not sure why you need examples for everything... I am not like lying.
but here you go for the latest anyway
A: String to float conversion and formatting

Laszlo PappIf you insist on using Qt, this is the appropriate code for you: #include <QString> #include <QTextStream> #include <QDebug> using namespace std; int main() { QString floatString = "2.37"; QTextStream floatTextStream(&floatString); float f; floatTextStream >> f; qDebug() <<...

9:32 PM
@LaszloPapp It is sad. This is why I encourage folks who have nothing more to add than such a comment to refrain from commenting at all.
In 24 days of membership, you've exceeded the rep cap three times and earned almost 1250 reputation. I haven't looked at many individual posts yet, but you're clearly getting upvotes.
""main()" is a blunder. " -> OK, so what? No explanation. I marked as unconstructive. It was declined.
he basically sad "foo is bad", and nothing more.
It's indeed not a great comment.
All you can do in such a situation is either ask "could you clarify?" or move on.
(And, it should go without saying, being a valuable member of the site, but there, I said it anyways.)
Bart: I did that several times with that person without reaction.
9:34 PM
So move on
his comments were moderated today as well.
@Shog9 what is the most amount of dupes of dupes of dupes etc?
move on?
You can't let every individual bother you
I tried to help to clean the crap, and I am getting declined, and move on? Hell not.
you asked for an example, I gave .... this is very frustrating.
and there are such situations all around.
9:35 PM
Yes. It's your time and your sanity. If either of those are threatened beyond any acceptable level, move on.
The site is by no means perfect
But we do the best we can.
Pops: you can look at my answers. I try to provide quality, and not 1-2 liners.
And you simply can't let single users and incidents get to you. It's not healthy towards yourself, and it overlooks the brilliant evaluation you're getting for your contributions overall.
just as I have been doing on IRC and mailing lists....
Those evaluations also come from the community
and no, I spent 6-8 hours yesterday
and I got 50-60 points
that is ridiculously low.
9:36 PM
It's easy to remember the negative, but don't forget the overwhelmingly positive.
@UV-D can you clarify that?
and more on the edge: one selected answer ended up -1.
A: What is the most rampant duplicate on Stack Exchange sites?

Shog9Since Jarrod spent so much time and effort cleansing the data last week, I figured it'd be a shame not to have some fun with it. Here are the top 30 questions (by # of questions closed as duplicates of them) on SO: 204    Headers already sent by PHP 194    mysql_fetch_arr...

@Shog9 - just out of curiousity, what is the largest chain of dupes for a topic?
Bart: let me repeat again, "foo is bad" is useless
9:37 PM
It is, no argument there
@UV-D so dup -> dup -> dup = 3?
I raised a flag for it with that reason.
it got declined.
do you think I should feel nice that I am trying to do my best to help, and that is the "Gratitude"?
@Shog9 yes, I am curious about the greatest dupe-train
@LaszloPapp It's a single user. I can see why a moderator would decline the flag. I wouldn't have, but that's my view.
and what is worse, once that stuff is done, people have no easy way to appeal, i.e. to get the review reviewed.
9:39 PM
But don't let single users define your view of the community
Or of the site as a whole
@UV-D probably need someone who knows how to do recursive SQL to answer that one
All the upvotes and accepts and subsequent reputation you've amassed also comes from the very community. All the appreciation for your work doesn't come out of thin air.
Bart: I could give thousand such examples within 20 hours activity.
@Shog9 true, very true...lol
or 24.
9:40 PM
And yet you have a significantly high reputation for your limited participation @LaszloPapp (Limited in time).
even in the very same thread.
I marked an answer with personal insults for deletion. It did not get deleted!
it was edited to a less insult'ish, but still unwelcoming one.
I was very surprised by that action as well.
Care to link to that @LaszloPapp? If it is there, I'll edit out the insults if necessary.
Bart: "dear downvoter: any comment please how to improve this post? I personally think so far, this is the best way to go for. "
"You have commented on my solution and copy-pasted the same as yours."
I have read it
That's that user's view. And he's free to vote accordingly
claiming such things as copy-pasted without any evidence?
9:42 PM
It doesn't make him right
no no
It doesn't make you wrong
it is about claiming something insulting without any respect and evidence.
some moderator edited the more insulting into this less insulting
I can not see any insults in those comments
the whole should have been deleted right upfront.
I will not tell it to anyone he copied and pasted, especially when the code has not so much in common.
I would at least provide evidence like I did for my minus one answers when I explained.
oh, you cannot see any insult for saying "dude, you are crap, copied and pasted, but I do not provide evidence"?
9:44 PM
That is you and more strength to you, but no one is obliged to do so
well, I feel truly insulting to putting someone into that position without any explanation or evidence
but the member did not say that, that is your interpretation
.See? These are the things why I am considering to leave.
@LaszloPapp I guess I don't get insulted all that easily. All I do in a situation like that is state that I didn't, and then I shrug and move on.
I write a lot better answer than the guy, and he carelessly accuses me with intentional copy/paste, and I ask for help, and the moderator puts something like that in.
9:45 PM
It's always a good idea to keep this in mind xkcd.com/386
Bart: you clearly have not read the history behind that thread.
@LaszloPapp just because someone disagrees with you or does not believe you, does not mean it is an insult, it is just a difference of opinion (which everyone is entitled to)
@LaszloPapp If there is any information that is currently no longer present, then no, I can't see it.
OK, so I will keep writing to others, hey you copied and pasted
nice, we will have so such a nice and respectful site
with adults around, sigh.
But I am of the general opinion that the moderation team is doing an excellent job. Are they perfect? Nope. Are mistakes made? Sure. Do I always agree? No. But that happens.
9:47 PM
For the record, I do not have sufficient rep to downvote, so I upvote what I consider to be very good, unique and something to learn from... (that thread has actually helped me in a way)
I'm rather inclined to just purge all the comments on both answers...
so claiming "foo is bad" without explanation is not a noise, and is productive?
@animuson I'd say go ahead. There is not much value in them at the moment
@animuson probably would be fr the best
Bart: frankly, I flagged the same "foo is bad" again
I am sure it will be declined again.
but I do it for statistics.
to show you how it is not rare.
and that just frankly shows this site is not based on merit.
9:48 PM
And yet you're still focusing on the exact same single incident.
it is based on popularity and democracy.
And with that, I am heading off to work.
@animuson enjoy your work day!
Bart: it is not a single incident, there are several dozens of them
within 20-24 hours.
fully broken treatment all around.
tadaaaaa @LaszloPapp. Comments cleaned on that question. Thanks to moderation.
9:50 PM
@Bart like magic!
my asking for the downvote has been removed
so I need to redo my question
@LaszloPapp I'll say it one last time: let it go.
thanks for causing extra work
Don't repost it
Move on
9:50 PM
I will repeat the millionth time:
The downvoter does not have to answer to why
Downvoting without explanation is simply stupid, and the site even suggests to leave a comment when you downvote
yeah, you do not have to apologize when you hurt someone either ....
key word "suggests"
about the C++/Qt issues with the other dude's code.
seriously, WTF
when I upvote, or downvote I do not leave a comment
9:52 PM
Okay, I'm out @laszlo. We're going in circles. Whether you stay on the site is up to you. If you keep going at it as you are currently though, I can guarantee you won't be around for very long. You'll burn yourself out for no good reason. There is far more positive than there is negative. Have a great day.
the reason, I do not want to make noise that detracts from the conversation
/me got super pissed off again by getting removed a quality constructive critic and bailing out accordingly to chill out
I need to go, ironically to vote (elections here in Australia)
Bart: yes, ask for examples, and when people prove it, run away
when I downvote the government, I don't have to give any reasons either
9:55 PM
UV-D: yes, compare the damn politics to a technical and ethical site which is supposed to be, but hey not.... because it can go as wrong as politics....
Unless your government is way more functional than mine, that might not be the best comparison....
Pops: +++++++1
@Pops so true LOL
Bart only cared about asking, but not actually looking into issues ....
A: Python to C++ parent equivalent

abarnertYour Python code is misleading, to say the least. In PySide—and in Qt/C++ as well—QObjects organize themselves into parent-child trees automatically, but non-QObjects that just happen to have a member named parent do not do that. You most likely wanted Dashboard to be a QObject in Python, and to ...

here is the -1
Bart looked into the issues, but you did not get the answer you wanted, it happens.
9:57 PM
ask on our qt development mailing list whether that is a nice answer...
UV-D: no, he did not.
UV-D: he looked into only one, and did not bother to check more from my history.
not let us not fade the reality.
ooh the last answer on that thread just answered one of my questions - thank you for the link @LaszloPapp
A: Python to C++ parent equivalent

abarnertYour Python code is misleading, to say the least. In PySide—and in Qt/C++ as well—QObjects organize themselves into parent-child trees automatically, but non-QObjects that just happen to have a member named parent do not do that. You most likely wanted Dashboard to be a QObject in Python, and to ...

I just flagged one answer here as non constructive
basically I got pissed off once he removed my technical answers, and tried to explain to get it back with all the options I was aware of.
then everything got deleted, but he left a comment in there, why?
it is useless, especially with mentioning my name, giving bad reputation without the ability to reply.
I highly suggest to consider removing everything there truly, including all his other inline comments.
it is not fair to fire an incapable person to defend who does not even bother to write my name correctly.
Anyway, @LaszloPapp I have to go get breakfast, vote and then grade a pile of physics papers. Thank you again for that link - the answer from abarnet is very useful to me (have upvoted it)
right, so you actually did not care about helping me with what I was asking for.
so moderators only ask for links, but not actually looking into that to help with?
I am not a moderator
10:04 PM
who cared here about his answer? That is a clear hijack which just shows disrespect to me.
why do I even bother trying to post links here for requests if then the people do not care?!
UV-D: congratulation, you managed to piss me off even better by the hijacking.
and surely, by mentioning to the person you talk to, the other person's reply is very useful rather than your is surely very friendly.
I am not saying, you should like mine, but telling me thanks because the other person's reply is how good is plain rude.
well, you got replies, you got people trying to help - meaning they do care - you brushed them off.
I am genuinely thanking you for that link, as it helped me - you are choosing to take it personally
you do not even realize how rude you are....
do you seriously think this is how you talk to people who spend a significant time with something that you tell them into their face how much the other person rocks?
is there an ignore option on chat? I am not willing to listen to such things anymore because they just make me even more sad.
Look, all I was doing is thanking you for that link, which unintentionally helped another member - I did not say the "other person rocks", but said that their post is helpful. I upvote when I find something helpful - I have not had a chance to read your reply in that thread
Part of being rude -- and yes, it's only part -- is intent, and I don't think UV-D was being rude intentionally there. But yes, you can ignore other users selectively by clicking on their names/icons.
Pops: it does not matter he intended or not... that does not modify the outcome.
Pops: when you talk to a girl who is competing with another one on a page, you will not tell her that the other is how beautiful.
Pops: do you realize that?
10:11 PM
@Pops thank you, it was not remotely my intent, I am just very happy that I found an answer to a question I have had for a little while... so while not rude, maybe a tad exuberant
Pops: thanks I ignored him.
I don't understand your example... but you really wouldn't feel any differently even if he had been intending to insult you?
I'll read the rest of the thread when I return from breakfast and voting
you talk to a lady about beauty issues, and then she shows a page where she and another girl is.
and they are competiting
will you seriously tell her that how much the other lady rocks?
and you think that will do so much good?
do you really do this in real life :O
apples and oranges
10:13 PM
(now I am getting hungry)
Actually, I have, when asked directly. I'm not big on lying.
Granted that's not the point you were trying to make.
I highly doubt you will tell it this harshly.
@Pops - how long have you been with SE?
@UV-D Two weeks.
or if you do, I am probably better not meeting you face to ace
10:15 PM
@pops no doubt you're enjoying the work, must be awesome working for SE
@UV-D Can't complain, that's for sure.
so basically technical comments with explanation can also be removed on SO anytime without any guarantee.
and without any reason.
based on that it happened more than once only just today.
by not someone, but moderators!
@pops that is awesome!
should I even bother posting more when I know technical posts can be removed anytime like that?
Yeah, comments are very much second-class citizens here.
10:19 PM
perhaps because the user interface is poorly developed.
it could be managed in a better way not to be a noise.
It's to encourage people to put useful information in answers, and useless information in somewhere-other-than-the-site.
you are not making sense there.
you cannot put answers when you need clarification, feedback, etc which is clearly not answer material.
@Pops I am out of here for a while - hope you have a great day, have fun!
@UV-D See you, thanks!
@LaszloPapp Correct. But why would you need clarification, feedback, etc. other than to improve the answer (which can be done via editing once the info is obtained)?
And then once the edit is made, the comment that led to it is obsolete and can be safely deleted. In theory.
/me has the impression of someone joking
in fact SSO is even encouraging comments due to the voting ...
if I became a moderator one day, I would behave rather differently than quite a few now.
10:41 PM
You're welcome to run in the next election; by the time it's scheduled, you'll probably have enough rep for it. stackoverflow.com/election
Pops: I have better things to do than moderating this site.
Pops: what is the required rep for it out of curiosity?
I will not have that much, I am afraid. I am actually very far from it.
and I am mostly getting downvotes anyway.
11:27 PM
At your current rate, you'll have that much in another month
11:51 PM
my current rate is slow.
now, to read the rest of that thread
Q: Setup SUBDIRS template failed in QtCreator

iAskThe project is application(.pro) with a static library(.pro), so I am going to use TEMPLATE = SUBDIRS to manage it. my workspace.pro TEMPLATE = SUBDIRS greaterThan(QT_MAJOR_VERSION, 4): QT += widgets SUBDIRS += \ MY_LIB \ MY_APP1 MY_LIB.file=/Users/username/MYLIB/mylib.pro MY_APP1.fil...

here is another weird thread. The guy whose reply was selected has not bothered to update it, and his reply is even incorrect to a small degree. Yet, the OP decided to select that because it was the "Quickest" rather than "Best".
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