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Journeyman Geek

01:03

→ 9 messages moved to Chimney

05:40

@AndreascondemnsIsrael yes we all do! But importantly, with our own... liquid. Swallowing others' liquid isn't at all pleasant. Especially when it's not 'new' :D

@ShadowWizard lol, jokers

M.A.R.

07:46

6

Q: What do I need to know as a user about authenticating application that interacts with Stack Exchange can have?

I know that I can grant permission of an application to do something with my account on the network. What can and cannot an application do if I allow it? For example, if I see a description like: Identify your account Access your private actions and information Create and change content on your...

@VLAZ is it just me or is your title not even a runon sentence? More like run over twice then double tapped.

Then dropped into a vat of acid.

Which was then shot at by three machine guns.

How about ". . . as a user about authorizing apps that interact with Stack Exchange?"

Might have changed your meaning, which is why I didn't edit it.

Removing fluff would probably make it flow better. How about "What do I need to know about 'authorisation' in Stack Exchange-related apps?"

That British spelling took some willpower on my part

Elements In Space

08:26

@M.A.R. Do be kind.

Andreas condemns Israel

09:09

@M.A.R. Try Persian spelling.

VLAZ

@M.A.R. I re-wrote that title about five times. I agree that it's definitely not what I wanted to convey there. Especially when I read the title after having slept. I updated it to (almost) your suggestion: "What do I need to know as a user about authorising applications that interacts with Stack Exchange?" (almost, since it's not "apps". I'd avoid using that word since it implies mobile applications)

Tinkeringbell

I think it's 'interact' not 'interacts'

But I'm no English expert :P

Elements In Space

Yeah, that’s right @Tink. The word “applications” has the “s”, so it should be “interact”.
Or alternatively, it could be “an application that interacts”.

VLAZ

@Tinkeringbell ...OK, true. I had it as "authorising an application" (singular). But then changed my mind. But apparently didn't change it enough.

Tinkeringbell

Yay! My 'gut feeling English' saves the day again!

VLAZ

09:23

Gut English. Or Genglish, if you will

Andreas condemns Israel

10:42

Gronglish

Shadow Wizard

Gron who?

M.A.R.

12:12

@VLAZ well I've composed a couple of these behemoth posts in the past, so I sympathize

Words blur into each other

@ElementsInSpace only because I know VLAZ can take it

VLAZ

> Wordsblurintoeachother

Fixed it for you

M.A.R.

@VLAZ Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo bufallo buffalo Buffalo buffalo.

VLAZ

~~Fun~~ fact: the phenomenon where you repeat a word too many times until it loses its meaning is called "semantic satiation".

M.A.R.

Doesn't happen to me. Everything I say is meaningful.

Elements In Space

Epizeuxis, epizeuxis, epizeuxis!

M.A.R.

12:18

@ElementsInSpace no u

M.A.R.

12:51

Hmm, might be worth checking up on that one later

Andreas condemns Israel

13:42

Sep 14 at 20:30, by M.A.R.

I will say 'allahuakbar' every three sentences followed by angry frustrated utterances muffled by my shaggy beard

Deeply meaningful.

@ShadowWizard No idea.

PM 2Ring

@VLAZ I just had a mild case of semantic satiation with "finger" when reading this HNQ answer english.stackexchange.com/a/627026/96998

VLAZ

@PM2Ring I'm sorry. Scientists have found that 76% of people who have experienced semantic satiation from the word "finger" have died. Most of them were very unlucky in that it took decades. I don't think there is a cure yet.

Tinkeringbell

I'm curious about the other 24 percent now... and I will probably not risk reading the link for fear of being one of those!

VLAZ

@Tinkeringbell They refused to die, so the scientists had to put them down.

Tinkeringbell

13:57

How though, because that sounds like they still didn't die even after being put down?

That sounds like a horrible fate indeed!

PM 2Ring

:) It seems to happen most with words that are fairly common but which have some slight irregularity. Eg, in most "ng" words the "ng" is a pure nasal sound (in most dialects of English), eg, in "singer", but in some words like "finger" and "english" the "g" is also pronounced.

Usually. OTOH, there was a recent HNQ discussing whether it's ok to make the "g" silent in "english".

VLAZ

@Tinkeringbell It involved mayonnaise and an artificial squirrel

Tinkeringbell

@VLAZ Weird...

PM 2Ring

Sounds horrible. I prefer natural squirrels. But not on pizza

VLAZ

Desperate times call for desperate measures

Andreas condemns Israel

14:23

@PM2Ring Ehm

M.A.R.

14:51

@PM2Ring you know, we could just . . . make all vowels and consonants silent to save time.

New Ability Unlocked: Telepathy

Telepathically nudging @Andreas to zip up his fly

Andreas condemns Israel

But I like letting it swing!

PM 2Ring

15:13

@M.A.R. English spelling is a mess, but there's not much motivation to reform it. My youngest sisters learned to read using the Initial Teaching Alphabet. I was sceptical at the time, and I don't think it really helped. They both learned to read proper English eventually.

Sorry for the triple ping. Mobile chat is painful...

Spevacus

Pipe dream: 1) SE creates a chat API 2) Community builds an SE chat app for iOS and android 3) ??? 4) (Non)-profit

PM 2Ring

I'll have what you're smoking

Journeyman Geek

@Spevacus funny thing is - my desire for a chat API is a combination of sneakily getting active development on it (including chat proper) + better bots

Spevacus

What kind of improvements do you think we need for bots?

Aside from improving their ability to actually interface with chat

Journeyman Geek

Well that, rather than having a bunch of different systems

and I'm thinking less oakie style conversation bots than smokey style utility bots

the only reason the current bots works is the chat system is robust, and ossified

Spevacus

15:28

@Starship (Moving my response here since I'd rather not litigate this on the main site) - Stating that someone or something is "terminally incompetent" is always going to be unkind. Full stop.

VLAZ

@Spevacus Hmm, I've yet to make a bot. But authentication and remaining in chat seem to be pain points I've seen with bots. Maybe also some sandbox for them.

Actually, it'd be great if there were chatbot accounts. So you don't have the sockpuppet song and dance.

Journeyman Geek

@VLAZ and if a bot misbehaves there's a 'by design' way to let the owner know

VLAZ

Yep, that too.

PM 2Ring

How would chatbot accounts work? That is, what would stop them being abused by actual sock puppeteers?

VLAZ

Like, some tooling around managing bots would be good.

@PM2Ring Valid only in chat. And can be controlled separately from human users, perhaps.

Journeyman Geek

15:32

@PM2Ring drop the 20 rep minimum requirement, add a requirement for an associated user, suspensions of a main user affects the bot?

VLAZ

Heavily limit their capabilities, as well. Like restrict flagging they can do.

PM 2Ring

@JourneymanGeek Ok. That sounds feasible.

Journeyman Geek

If I'm going to be greedy, don't show them on the top chatters list :D

VLAZ

Allow ROs to allow/disallow bots in rooms. On the individual level. We now have a cobbled together system where the bot owner can add/remove bots from rooms. But instead shift that to the other side. Like with the spamwave from last week - when Smokey was going up in smokes, it could have been temporarily suspended here.

Journeyman Geek

But fundamentally, chat's been untouched a decade. Some tasteful updates might be nice

PM 2Ring

15:34

I don't know about giving chatbots flagging privs. But I guess it would be ok if they were equivalent to the associated user's flag privs.

VLAZ

@PM2Ring I'm saying restrict their flagging privilege. Currently bots can flag since they are regular users. But that should probably be prevented. Like, either reduce the flags (and also aggressively monitor them) or maybe even don't allow bots to flag by default (you'd need a special grant for flags).

PM 2Ring

Oh, ok.

Journeyman Geek

@VLAZ that's sort of what I mean by updating things a little, but that's after there's at least the momentum to update things at all

PM 2Ring

15:48

Speaking of updates... the question announcing the new "improved" homepage on SO now has 255 downvotes. meta.stackoverflow.com/q/431770/4014959 It was already heavily downvoted, but it picked up a whole bunch more since it went live.

Feeds

Though they do appreciate how much he improved the heating system for the flame pit.

VLAZ

@PM2Ring 162 downvotes since this week. And 2 upvotes.

M.A.R.

16:06

@Spevacus is there even a half stop? Like if you just reduce acceleration to zero and move without resistance through the vaccum of space

cocomac

@VLAZ For SD, wouldn't the per-room version of !!/block have worked for what you're describing?

Or are there other bots you're thinking of...?

M.A.R.

*vacuum

Whatever

Vaccuum

271

A: Proposed designs to update the homepage for logged-in users

Why is the hot network questions being removed? I'd much rather have that than the overflow blog

My goodness why on Earth would they do that?!

Spevacus

@M.A.R. I mean I guess it's more of a "hit the thrusters in reverse at max power" but

VLAZ

@cocomac Maybe? Dunno. My point was to list things I'd want all bots to have. I reached for the SD example as it seemed relevant to illustrate why I'd want control over bot users for ROs.

M.A.R.

They could hardly do more damage if they intentionally tried to bring down the site save maybe setting the servers on fire

Andreas condemns Israel

16:11

@PM2Ring Oxygen

M.A.R.

Oxygen toxicity

Oxygen toxicity is a condition resulting from the harmful effects of breathing molecular oxygen (O2) at increased partial pressures. Severe cases can result in cell damage and death, with effects most often seen in the central nervous system, lungs, and eyes. Historically, the central nervous system condition was called the Paul Bert effect, and the pulmonary condition the Lorrain Smith effect, after the researchers who pioneered the discoveries and descriptions in the late 19th century. Oxygen toxicity is a concern for underwater divers, those on high concentrations of supplemental oxygen, and...

PM 2Ring

@M.A.R. It's a textbook example of "Let's change something that's not broken , on the off-chance that it will make the site more appealing to ChatGPT lovers, even if it totally alienates the bulk of the existing user base".

M.A.R.

@PM2Ring 👋 WELCOME BACK, PM 2RING

PM 2Ring

With a year or two of intensive feedback training, LLMs can become smarter than humans. However, some humans refuse to submit to the training...

M.A.R.

The most apt comment for the moment, which stayed only for a couple of hours on meta probably since mods hate fun (Don't tell Tink I said that), was from Shog

PM 2Ring

16:21

25

A: Proposed designs to update the homepage for logged-in users

In addition to the various reasons mentioned in other answers why the greeting and hand waiving isn't welcome, please note that a hand with splayed fingers is a rude gesture in certain cultures (or at least in mine): Please don't insult me every time I visit the site. Not only is this exactly t...

M.A.R.

> The foot shooting continues until mobility improves.

3

There. I immortalized it.

@PM2Ring oh, that's a rude gesture here too. But I would never associate an emoji with it. The forward motion is pretty important.

PM 2Ring

Yeah. It has to be in your face for full effect.

M.A.R.

The accompanying phrase in Farsi would literally translate to "dirt on your head!", which means you have to be buried, either referencing excrement that has to be buried after, or implying the person might as well die for whatever stupid thing they did.

The Turkish equivalent is "may a large stone be dropped on your head"

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. gets outaged in greek

@M.A.R. cause apparently only a small number of overall users use it. Which I'm told is strangely in line with the small number of very active users

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek I'm mature enough not to immediately poke fun at your misspelling.

Journeyman Geek

16:30

I mean, its about the same, only more unintelligible

M.A.R.

Instead, I wait long enough so that you can't edit it anymore.

Journeyman Geek

cause I don't speak any greek.

M.A.R.

HA!

@JourneymanGeek I mean, there's crucial information they seem to be missing here. Someone with 100k is goddamned proven to be useful to the site. What, do they think if they keep even a hundred homework dumpers, they'd be able to replace that one guy/gal?

Journeyman Geek

\o/

M.A.R.

Seriously, what am I missing here? It should be obvious.

Journeyman Geek

16:33

That the decisions arn't made around growing the core community, but rather trying to get better metrics I'd say

M.A.R.

Or is it more like the homework dumpers are more likely to buy . . . Whatever SO is selling?

Journeyman Geek

naw, bigger numbers better :D

a 100k+ user on SO is more likely to get a job via SO Jobs 1.0

and is less likely to buy into the AI hype - and tacking AI crap to SE makes no sense cause someone who wants to use chatgpt will use chatgpt

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek okay but don't you need people to stick around to answer the noobs' questions?

Journeyman Geek

\o/

M.A.R.

If they're taking that for granted they will no doubt be rudely woken up

Journeyman Geek

16:39

I think SE needs to do more to build up the core communities, and the social aspect of it

M.A.R.

It's kinda like osteoporosis

Journeyman Geek

@M.A.R. naw, they'll leave for somewhere else I'd say

PM 2Ring

The metric is to attract and retain new users. Now that metric may make sense on a social site, but it's not so relevant on a Q&A library, where the bulk of the website hits are from people who find what they're looking for in the library without posting a question. Numerous people have mentioned that, numerous times...

Journeyman Geek

\o/

myself included

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek exactly. As soon as there's a viable option (no, @Andreas, codidact doesn't count) people will start flocking if this -100> meta-question streak keeps going

Journeyman Geek

16:41

@M.A.R. its kinda ongoing tho

I mean, it pretty much dates back to part of joel's time as CEO

M.A.R.

Sure, but occasionally there were efforts to placate the angry meta mob that traumatized the poor staff

Journeyman Geek

I mean, sometimes the company does more to traumatise their staff than we do

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek I mean I feel like they're working in a concrete mixer the way they're constantly getting traumatized

Journeyman Geek

If you don't want people to be mad, sometimes understanding why they're mad is useful

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek don't be mad, it's going to be okay

Journeyman Geek

16:46

Honestly, I'm mostly just disappointed

PM 2Ring

Yep. It's an old problem. Newbies who do come here thinking it's just like a forum don't get proper onboarding, and get confused, and feel hostility because the community here doesn't behave how the newbie expects. The new thing is that the LLM chatbots seem a lot friendlier...

Journeyman Geek

@PM2Ring the thing is, generally a better adjusted community deals with onboarding

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek when did you turn into a mom?

Journeyman Geek

lol

I mean, anger has little purpose. I guess I'm somewhere in between bargaining and depression :D

M.A.R.

@PM2Ring until they STAB you in the back! Dun dun duuuuun

We just stab people in the front

PM 2Ring

16:51

@JourneymanGeek Ok. I still try to smooth things out for the newbies. But I lost a lot of motivation to do that several years ago, for various reasons. One of the reasons was that it seemes that SE was more interested in optimising for quantity rather than quality, in direct contradiction to the "pearls not sand" philosophy.

Journeyman Geek

@PM2Ring If you asked me how to fix it - I'd say, bring back team chaos in some shape or form - basically hire a bunch of interns to be essentially CM lite + get them to engage and report back on the wider community. I'd also say having people dealing with the core communities directly would be nice

But that's probably as many people as we have now :D

@PM2Ring I mean, I don't mind helping newbies

but I also kind of 'miss' having my community here and active

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek well it's been like six years now and SE have never considered something like this seriously.

Journeyman Geek

Yup

M.A.R.

We've had half a dozen moderator councils by any other name since then.

PM 2Ring

@M.A.R. One early commenter said: "Trusting ChatGPT is like trusting a schizophrenic in a white coat with a stethoscope".

Journeyman Geek

16:54

I feel like some of these issues go back like a decade

M.A.R.

What's actually happened instead was bye Shog9! Bye Jon Ericsson! Bye Tim Post! et al.

Journeyman Geek

More or less

PM 2Ring

And Catija

Journeyman Geek

and I get the idea SE wants a different model of community management than we do. I see both approaches complimenting each other, but there's a lot of blockers to that

M.A.R.

One blocker is they can't won't wouldn't couldn't listen

Journeyman Geek

16:57

\o/

People also get tired of trying to say the same things over and over again

M.A.R.

@JourneymanGeek 👋

Frankly I find the welcome message creepy. It's mostly spammers and Twitter trolls that like to try to address me by name. Welcome back, Colleen. Colleen, have you done any reviews lately? Hey Colleen, there are new posts in your watched tags! Shut up already. I might change my profile name to dumbass so the automated attempts to make me feel connected will at least make me laugh. — ColleenV Oct 3 at 14:10

This is very tempting

"Hey dipsh!t! Questions need votes too!"

Andreas condemns Israel

17:14

@M.A.R. I am not paying attention to whatever conversation is ongoing here.

But you're welcome to Codidact.

V2Blast

@M.A.R. coughs

:P

Spevacus

:( Nobody should forget V2Blast

5

Andreas condemns Israel

Bye, @V2Blast!

V2Blast

<3

Spevacus

Have you considered requesting reinstatement on RPG.SE? Or are you, like I assume Catija is, still feeling a little like you're not interested in being back in "that world" so to speak.

If that question comes off oddly, you're under no obligation to answer. Just curious how you're feeling lately.

V2Blast

17:26

I've been considering it. I haven't decided yet whether to request it

Andreas condemns Israel

@Spevacus Everything is odd.

V2Blast

Kinda depends on the needs of the community more than whether I want it, IMO

Spevacus

RPG.SE's always had a really solid mod team from my outsider's POV. Not to mention the user-level moderation is always on lock. It's rare something that shouldn't be posted sticks around for longer than a couple hours.

Andreas condemns Israel

The community's need is moving.

V2Blast

@Spevacus Agreed! I wasn't personally around for more than like 2 years before I first became a mod there, but basically the whole time I've been on the site, it's had great moderation both by the diamond mods and the users with moderation privileges :)

Spevacus

17:31

Also a really rich voting culture. Everything gets voted on. That's nice to see.

V2Blast

Yeah. Definitely more active and communicative than some of the other sites I dealt with as a CM (some of which just had very little voting, and very little conversation on their site's meta).

Shadow Wizard

18:42

@PM2Ring and one more now, from me. ewww. One of the worst changes I've ever seen, and I've seen a lot of bad changes SE made.

Personally I don't visit SO a lot so won't be affected but meh, it's still really annoying.

!!/tea Spe

Spevacus

o/

Journeyman Geek

22:58

→ 22 messages moved to Chimney

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