Tavern on the Meta

00:02

@JourneymanGeek It’s not like I haven’t taken that into account when looking at the situation.

@JourneymanGeek Well, it’s also not like I’m not paying attention. ;) Some information is more easily accessible to you as a moderator, but it usually finds it ways out. The stuff that doesn’t, isn’t always that relevant anyway.

Journeyman Geek

00:19

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact well more of 'I talk to people' sometimes informally

and I'm reasonably serious about keeping stuff that's obviously meant to be in confidence in confidence

hm

Actually

policies.stackoverflow.co/company/modern-slavery-act-statement

reading between the lines here :D

(but not toooo clise)

> As a business specialising in Software as a Service, we do not have a traditional supply chain and have limited reliance on suppliers of tangible goods

I'll leave it to the reader to see other company's stance on slavery

Andreas moved to Codidact

00:44

@JourneymanGeek We all do.

Journeyman Geek

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I mean, back in the good ol days, I literally DMed a sysadmin here cause the sites were down :D

I don't know anyone I can do that with any more

Andreas moved to Codidact

03:17

@JourneymanGeek I could mention somewhere you can still do that.

I gotta get something useful after biting the bait again.

Journeyman Geek

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Well kinda but Codidact is a different model

So, I was informed of this on one of the SE diaspora sites

x.com/Duard0/status/1818692943253061799

This so feels like the problems the community team has

Andreas moved to Codidact

@JourneymanGeek I hope you didn’t intend for me to read any comments there.

Journeyman Geek

Its a single thread by one person mostly

sec

Andreas moved to Codidact

Elon killed Nitter.

Journeyman Geek

Andreas moved to Codidact

03:23

After reading all that… I wonder… would it not be more reasonable and practical to just shove a link to a text document into the Twitter post?

Journeyman Geek

Maybe, but where would you host that? :D

This twitter thread probably should have been a blog post

but I was meaning more that companies don't really appreciate their communities and those resources tend to get cut to the bone in the name of profits

Andreas moved to Codidact

@JourneymanGeek I’d say Mastodon, but Elon would hate him for it. So much he’d send his little evil script bots after him. Also, not sure if there’s a stupid limit there, too.

@JourneymanGeek And it is at this point we must ask… Why do people unable to think more than half a tick forward end up as leaders?

Journeyman Geek

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact ah, but they do think

Andreas moved to Codidact

Wait, I just recollected some results from parliamentary and presidential elections. Nevermind.

Journeyman Geek

Question is really what we're optimising for

Andreas moved to Codidact

03:33

@JourneymanGeek Most efficient, highest gain to loss. Number of steps to calculate: 1.

Journeyman Geek

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact for whom :D

Andreas moved to Codidact

@JourneymanGeek The business, of course. The trick is that you maximize it by only looking at the best possible outcome from step to step. Can’t possibly imagine you could achieve higher results by going over more than one at a time, could you?

Journeyman Geek

What's SE's business? :D

So for all my sins, I'm a management major

lemme steal this from the internet

Q&A was a star, but practically is a cow. I think some folks in the company see it more as a dog.

Teams, I don't know. I want to say its a ? - there's not that huge a market, there's lots of substitute goods, and it only really exists cause SO's so huge. The indeed tie up is Probably a dog right now - other than that SE isn't really taking much risk, except reputational

the problem is really they keep chopping parts off the cow to feed the ? and maybe the dog

And that risks turning the cow into clara. :D

and the marketing part of the company - is seen as a star, but seems to boom, bust and ends up sometimes being a liability since its high investment, high risk (as history shows)

Journeyman Geek

04:18

I'll leave it to someone more enthusiastic about this sort of thing to do SWOT analysis on SE's lines of business :D

Andreas moved to Codidact

05:18

@JourneymanGeek Community destruction.

Journeyman Geek

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact that assumes people who do destructive stuff care enough

SPArcheon - on strike

07:47

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact And that is WHY it seems quite convenient to add such line just after many users started discussing the possibility of suing the company over a suspected violation of the CC license. I don't doubt that "this has been planned for while now". Eeek, even Cesar answer to my comment actually leaked that supposedly "these edits were drafted in 2023"... which oddly matches the timeframe for the "how to kill dump" plan.

It is the aggressive wording that seems to be a deliberate choice in this context.

Shadow Wizard

I see Intel is going through major AI crisis, laying off thousands of employees. Probably by dry percentage it's less than SE, but still... kind of making SE look more sane in its panic.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact CD? Is this a new role besides a CM?

CD destroys, CM fix?

starball

@ShadowWizard no, CD deletes, CM modifies, and CA adds. CU is unstaged/unresolved.

Shadow Wizard

@SPArcheon-onstrike no doubt there's a plan, it was clear for long time. :/

@starball where goes the CP then?

starball

@ShadowWizard ERROR: UNKNOWN_GIT_STATUS_ABBREVIATION

@ShadowWizard or maybe CP pages codes

Shadow Wizard

@starball or just half CPR. ;-)

Cardiopulmonary resuscitation

Cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR) is an emergency procedure consisting of chest compressions often combined with artificial ventilation, or mouth to mouth in an effort to manually preserve intact brain function until further measures are taken to restore spontaneous blood circulation and breathing in a person who is in cardiac arrest. It is recommended for those who are unresponsive with no breathing or abnormal breathing, for example, agonal respirations. CPR involves chest compressions for adults between 5 cm (2.0 in) and 6 cm (2.4 in) deep and at a rate of at least 100 to 120 per minute. The...

SE needs it, after all.

SPArcheon - on strike

07:55

As I said before, this is true until someone knowledgeable enough in the field opens an actual report to their local DPA (that is, IF there is an actual violation. I stated multiple times that I am not experienced enough to verify if the rumors are true).
At that point it is very possible that the issue explodes as the company would no longer face a single mob but a gov legal entity - which has the full power to simply "remove" their ability to operate in a country if they feel like they need to.

Shadow Wizard

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact everyone use it, you're dooomed.

huh, only 45 here.

Need to fix that.

SPArcheon - on strike

let's oversimplify this, shall we?
If the company is confident to not be selling data, then there is nothing to verify. The fact does not exist in the first place, so there is no reason to spend weeks to "talk to legal dep"
If the company does need to talk to legal, then there is something they have to verify, and this means they are not confident to be able to claim they NOT sell the data.
Basically, their delay already answered the question.

There is a small chance that they do not sell the data but they feel the pressure and want to check that there is no side activity that could be seen as selling data.

But I would also claim that this look like knowing that your own actions are shady and need review

I wonder if this actually pointed out an issue in their nice plan.

Their own ToS they agreed upon stated that "They will never sell our data". Can this cause interfere with their rights to "sell" the dumps as training material?

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Considering that it is not just one former employee but multiple former employees implying the same thing...

.... what happened...

actually decent games on the PSN sub plan??

FNAF Security Breach is decent if you get it for free...

And Ender Lilies is actually pretty good

also, no sport game from 2+ years ago...

Andreas moved to Codidact

08:20

@SPArcheon-onstrike Unless the CMs are so out of the loop on the details on that, such that they are not confident that they know enough about what happens outside of their department. However, I don’t believe that to be the case, so your assessment is what I’d consider likely.

Although, as former staff such as AMtwo have stated, there is a culture of fear at the company. As far as I can tell, CMs are scared to talk publicly about topics that the company’s leadership consider important.

SPArcheon - on strike

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact I doubt the CM are even authorized to post anything without approval. Therefore I just assumed that whatever review promise was posted was actually authorized by some top manager internally.

Andreas moved to Codidact

That’s a very good reason to simply defer it to a crafted response from the legal team, so the CMs don’t have to take personal risks. On the other hand, I’m not sure why Philippe also responds like this.

But really, judging by the general dishonesty in prior and current related communication, I don’t think «we’ve asked legal for clarifications» is a fully honest answer, even. There are good reasons to think it may simply be stalling, or waiting for a discussion with leadership, not one with legal, and where the goal of that conversation is another one than getting a clarification.

And, in that case, this interpretation is incorrect.

Yeah, I don’t think they need to talk to legal, it’s simply an excuse to stall and not answer something uncomfortable or controversial.

SPArcheon - on strike

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact It still stands.

Again, it would not be controversial if they were sure to not be selling anything.

The simple fact this feels like something that should be discussed to avoid risk is at the same time admitting there IS something that could be a risk.

Andreas moved to Codidact

Eh, well, the conclusion stands, but the deduction isn’t the same.

SPArcheon - on strike

no one would waive an opportunity to look good if they could just answer "we still stand by Joel and Jeff ideals and we don't sell anything"

Andreas moved to Codidact

08:34

Granted whomever would post that answer would not receive a severe personal punishment for it if some tiny detail they were not aware of, made a difference. In a culture of fear, you avoid good opportunities, because you learn to know that there are no good opportunities, your only course of way is to figure out how to avoid the dangers.

Anyway, we’re nitpicking the details now.

@SPArcheon-onstrike That’s pretty much in line with my assessment; it belonging to the initial plan to kill off the data dumps. I still don’t think it’s targeted at any specific person.

I still would not say there must be causation between the date of appearance of that sentence, and the mentions of various users to cause disruption. I think it’s more likely that it’s simply been delayed as part of the process of slowly introducing a change in order to wear down its opposition.

@ShadowWizard No, I’m wild.

@ShadowWizard Content Disruptor. New self-given role by users. Oh. Not that. mhm

@SPArcheon-onstrike About that sentence; I don’t think your assumption is unfounded, or otherwise wrong, just that I find it less likely than the other possible explanation.

I wouldn’t be surprised if I’d know the answer one day, and it said your assumption was correct. It’s not that different in spirit.

SPArcheon - on strike

08:53

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact this is just a "tomato-tomato" issue. You probably agree on the intent but not on the wording.

I agree that they are not targeting any specific person just for the sake of it.

I think they are indirectly targeting specific persons as a consequence of them being vocal on the data dump issue and mentioning the possibility of a class action and them threading to sue back on "malevolent claims"

the targeting is not caused by them specifically calling out a name (like what happened with a certain ex moderator) but instead by the specific circumstances.

SPArcheon - on strike

09:21

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact maybe this could help.

SPArcheon - on strike

09:36

@JourneymanGeek as far as you know, prior these changes, did Stack ever claim that the dumps were distributed under CC BY-SA?

Shadow Wizard

10:02

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact sounds fair. Wear this title proudly! :-D

@SPArcheon-onstrike I don't think anyone thought it's required, it was too trivial.

SPArcheon - on strike

@ShadowWizard what??

Shadow Wizard

@SPArcheon-onstrike e.g. if someone would have asked me before the data dump closure started and SE evil plan exposed, I'd say "sure, the dumps must share the same license and SE is aware of that", but now I have no idea. It became a legal issue, where trust has no place anymore.

SPArcheon - on strike

@ShadowWizard oh, don't worry, I am just having fun watching the issue evolve.

I won't be the one doing anything with these info, I simply don't care enough.

I was just wondering because this post points out that the current format MAY fail to address some requirements of the CC BY-SA.

> Content on Stack Exchange sites is licensed under one of three CC BY-SA licenses, depending on when it was posted. All three licenses require including either a copy of or a URI for the license.

now, depending on how this works, it may even mean that the CC BY-SA license was actually violated, maybe even years ago.

Which would result in the end of the world scenario AMtwo described.

> If Stack Overflow violates the CC BY-SA license, the users who created the content (ie, "us" not the Company) can terminate the license granted to the Company.

...

> DARK DARKER YET DARKER
THE DARKNESS KEEPS GROWING
THE SHADOWS CUTTING DEEPER
PHOTON READINGS NEGATIVE
THIS NEXT EXPERIMENT
SEEMS
VERY
VERY
INTERESTING

Journeyman Geek

10:23

@SPArcheon-onstrike honestly? No one really worried

@SPArcheon-onstrike Actual end of the world scenario? Jeff gets so fed up that discourse decides to start a rival Q&A, steals a few good old timers and its all over the internets.

Also the end of the world scenario would be even funnier, mandatory arbitration dosen't scale with dozens of small cases

→ 42 messages moved to Chimney

@SPArcheon-onstrike on the other hand - I think the community team is stretched thin and certain competencies got... mostly eliminated over time. What you attribute to malice, I attribute to corporate ADD. Its entirely possible that well, things got dropped

SPArcheon - on strike

10:39

@JourneymanGeek Codidact exist, Did not change anything.

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike No offence to the Codidact folks (and @AndreasmovedtoCodidact) but... there's a certain bit more recognition there

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek depends on who you ask. As sad as it may be, some folks out there right now see Joel / Jeff as the traitors that abandoned them in Prosus claws

Journeyman Geek

Jeff left waaaay before that

SPArcheon - on strike

So, I don't think that Jeff involvement would be an automatic win.

@JourneymanGeek never said reddit rants have to make sense.

Journeyman Geek

Also most of those people wouldn't be here

I would rather see the will to fix things here but we'll see

Shadow Wizard

10:52

@SPArcheon-onstrike not automatic, but if anyone can re-create something like Stack Overflow from almost scratch, that's him.

He does need a big userbase, and perhaps Discourse is exactly this.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard and to a certain extent, he has internet clout

Shadow Wizard

People won't join because they know him from the SO days, that would indeed be more negative than positive effect, on SO old timers.

@JourneymanGeek yup.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard I'd join because of the SO days

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek but @SPA has a valid point, Jeff (and Joel) did let SO fall into... not very good... hands.

For money sake.

That is not very nice, though of course very fair.

Jeff left much before that, but still... that's the impression most people get.

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizard If you looked at it objectively - Joel's cashed out on multiple ventures so far. Jeff hasn't, and discourse is open source for most part and seems to be sustainable

and from my perspective, Jeff's leadership style worked much better for me and my communities

Shadow Wizard

11:00

@JourneymanGeek sure, but only few would delve so deep to find the truth.

Journeyman Geek

Well that might be the job of the community management team :D

@ShadowWizard frankly, most people wouldn't care too much about the background

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek well yeah, the amount is minor.

Shadow Wizard

12:17

Smokey bug. Missed a post by a blacklisted user. :/

SPArcheon - on strike

13:46

@ShadowWizard Smokey is joining the strike. Good Smokey.

Shadow Wizard

incorrect regex. :/

@SPArcheon-onstrike maybe when it will get AI to operate it. SmokeAI

Anyway turns out it didn't miss, just had loooong delay for some reason.

Journeyman Geek

6-8?

Shadow Wizard

14:19

@JourneymanGeek hours ;)

SPArcheon - on strike

14:45

4

Q: Upcoming research on Stack Overflow and across the SE network (Aug 2024)

Today, I shared an update on the blog about the research we will be conducting over the next quarter. TL;DR – this quarter’s research focus is as follows: Motivation, incentives, and gamification Improving the answering experience This type of research typically operates months in advance and c...

Sigh.....

if you are doing a campaign to find people willing to take part in a new research, focus on describing what you will put in that research, not in the previous ones.

Tinkeringbell

I've opted out. I'm against using test animals.

SPArcheon - on strike

> Today, I shared an update on the blog about the research we will be conducting over the next quarter

"well then, I'll check the blog"...

> As mentioned in our last blog post, one of our researchers hypothesized five motivation groups through a cluster analysis of site behavior data, a survey, a Meta Stack Exchange post, workshops, and more

"oh, you didn't tell me the five motivation groups but I am sure I can find them in the last blog post you mentioned"...

> From this work, we built hypotheses around five motivations, including what users need or want to learn and what elements of our site might appeal to them.

"wait... you didn't write what the five motivations are here either???"

Andreas moved to Codidact

15:05

@SPArcheon-onstrike No, the difference is the motivation and reason for choice of inclusion now.

@SPArcheon-onstrike Nothing new there for me.

@ShadowWizard But I haven’t been deleting or defacing my content.

@ShadowWizard Discource isn’t Q/A.

> to engage in deep conversations around key areas of interest. If you are interested in helping us learn

I don’t think that is even possible.

Assuming, of course, that «us» refers to the collective company.

Shadow Wizard

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact ah, oops. Thought you meant others called you that. ;)

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell Aaawwww, such a cutie bird, let me pet it.

Shadow Wizard

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact sure, but it has a userbase. SO started from userbase of a blog.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@ShadowWizard A userbase with often entirely different goals. People chose Discourse because they wanted a discussion forum.

Shadow Wizard

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact it's not. The "us" are the researchers who got order from management "Research!" and that is it.

Nothing behind it.

Andreas moved to Codidact

15:19

@ShadowWizard Oh, then it doesn’t matter anyway, as we know management only listens to themselves. :)

Shadow Wizard

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact perhaps. But still, I believe enough would fit for the roots of a new Q&A site.

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact doubt even that. It's such a mess that they most likely don't even listen to each other.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@ShadowWizard Well, I wouldn’t join. I chose the non-profit Codidact foundation, no need to venture into a new ride which may end with the same fate as SO.

@ShadowWizard My sentence can mean that, too.

@SPArcheon-onstrike It’s a secret.

Journeyman Geek

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact true, but Jeff built a forum cause he felt he could do better than the existing options. SE was built cause the then existing Q&A site people used went evil, and the rest were crap

SPArcheon - on strike

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact alas the To everybody ?

Andreas moved to Codidact

@JourneymanGeek Yes?

Journeyman Geek

15:33

so its entirely plausible that at some point either people move to codidact or some new alternative

SPArcheon - on strike

@JourneymanGeek What a great start for a blog post that would be.

Journeyman Geek

but the impetus to move probably has to be more than 'unhappiness'

Andreas moved to Codidact

@SPArcheon-onstrike You must complete the trials to prove that you are worthy of the secret.

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon-onstrike not enough genAI

SPArcheon - on strike

> Years ago I started Stack Exchange as an alternative to the other available Q&A site since most of them were plain evil and the rest just bad. Today, I am starting Pointers References as an alternative to the evil Stack has become.

looks cool enough.

Shadow Wizard

16:07

@JourneymanGeek Sadly can't see how Codidact can attract critical mass of "ordinary" users, who will give the basic: new questions. Without it, even if e.g. 100 super active users will move, it won't make much difference.

Journeyman Geek

You don't need that many

Shadow Wizard

(i.e. people will keep posting on SE, just getting less answers.)

Journeyman Geek

I'm pretty sure SU has less than 2-3 dozen, and meta would fit into a NY apartment

Shadow Wizard

Yeah, but that will just kill SE, not make Codidact flourish.

canon

@ShadowWizard that's okay. Their LLM will synthesize one.

Shadow Wizard

16:10

If Jeff will join Codidact and send his Discourse userbase there..... now that would be awesome.

(or someone on that scale.)

@canon of course. I just don't consider such a thing to ever be worth calling "answer". :-D

On a side note, been long time since I spent long time writing an answer. Or in this case, editing into shape. Feels good. :P

hitting head on ceiling while jumping in joy

canon

@ShadowWizard lol I never said it'd be a good, accurate, or even non-dangerous answer. ;)

@ShadowWizard being a good sport about training those LLMs :P

SPArcheon - on strike

Tinkeringbell

16:29

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Are you sure you'd want to try that?

Andreas moved to Codidact

@Tinkeringbell Sure

Tinkeringbell

16:47

Think again ;)

Andreas moved to Codidact

Me, think? Now you're making ridiculous suggestions. :P

Shadow Wizard

@canon yeah. :D

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

Woooooo hello chat what’s going on?

Shadow Wizard

17:02

Hi I'm Shadow.

Andreas moved to Codidact

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard Shoes are going on the ground.

SPArcheon - on strike

@Tinkeringbell Tink again?

Tinkeringbell

17:18

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact Fair enough.

@SPArcheon-onstrike Don't know if that'll help prevent parrot bites

SPArcheon - on strike

@Tinkeringbell At least it shoudn't increase the chances. At least not like calling you Tinkering Belle or something like that.

That said, @AndreasmovedtoCodidact should probably invest on a set of chain mail gloves.

Tinkeringbell

Chain mail won't save you now!

Andreas moved to Codidact

@SPArcheon-onstrike No need, I’ll just use you as cannon fodder.

SPArcheon - on strike

17:34

Pinkie Pie - Oh, I never leave home without my party cannon!

►

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

18:49

@AndreasmovedtoCodidact isnt that where shoes always go?

Andreas moved to Codidact

19:05

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard Not if the ground is an indoor floor.

@SPArcheon-onstrike Scary

Shadow Wizard

19:43

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard nope.

Dat iz no floor

;)

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

Zerooooo gravity

Shadow Wizard

Same way there is @Elements in space, there can also be Shoes in space.

Uh, and of course the Space Shoes are used to play with the galactic ball, aka @starball :-D

However! They all need to be careful not to hit the @Starship as they need it to return home.

Also, the @Journey is long @And tiresome, but they'll always end up on @Meta, safe and sound.

</The-End>

That is what happens when Shadow getting bored

5 mins ago, 3 minutes total – 5 messages, 1 user, 0 stars

Bookmarked 5 secs ago by Shadow Wizard

runs away

Shadow Wizard

20:28

So who play Zuma here?

:-)

Andreas moved to Codidact

20:54

I play Warthunder, not Zuma.

Shadow Wizard

21:06

boo

Zuma is best.

You get fancy decorations.

Latest is the Hat, for completing Heroic Frog.

Andreas moved to Codidact

21:59

But my tanks have fancy camouflage.

Journeyman Geek

23:16

@ShadowWizard I am more round than long these days

Journeyman Geek

23:45

→ 15 messages moved to Chimney

Andreas moved to Codidact

23:56

@JourneymanGeek Can’t be. The story must be true.

That is what happens when Shadow getting bored

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