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00:00
@AlexisKing allegedly on SE everyone is a critic so we should be fine
 
2 hours later…
01:42
Good morning :)
@PetLinux G'morning.
 
4 hours later…
05:39
@Aibobot ping
@Aibobot ping
Ok that's wierd.
@Aibobot ping
@Aibobot I don't know if this is a good idea or not, but ping
Uhh, I can't ping aibobot
OR superping
Its not turning up in the inbox
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike is it outta batteries?
05:45
Or obsolete. And Probably due for a proper funeral due to old robot dogs :D
silly thing is there's an easier way to get what I need
....
06:06
turns out that I'd forgotten about an (old) feature
06:18
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Just wait a little
@PetLinux yeah, turns out I'd COMPLETELY FORGOTTEN there's a "quicker notifications" option, I had it off and... there's a checkbox for a feature that shipped and went out of beta in '16 :D
06:43
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike I was about to say "wait 5 or 15 minutes"...
@MetaAndrewT. So it seems :D
 
1 hour later…
08:13
@Laurel could be worse. It could be Princess Elise instead.
08:54
This question is an exact paraphrased plagiarism of the first two paragraphs of Could we please be a bit nicer to new users?Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog 7 mins ago
@Sonic it's spam. One of the periods is a link.
It's a pretty standard thing for a user with a name like 'Kanye West Merchandise/Tshirt' to do ;)
09:43
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack stumbled upon this in a separate conversation, and thought it might be helpful in this case ;)
@Tinkeringbell Kanye spot em?
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike what's weird?
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike it takes 15 minutes.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack see meta.stackexchange.com/questions/390956/…
Yes, I ASSUMED quicker notifications was turned on
then proceeded to realise I didn't remember where the preferences are :D
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike ha! Well, would be a decent request to ask that superpings will send instant notification anyway, regardless of user settings.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack .....
Actually yes
09:50
...pretty sure they're supposed to.
or if chat was worked on again, do we even need delayed pings? :D
Only other way for a mod to communicate is mod messages, but they should be used only for warnings. No?
@Mithical can confirm no
@JNat To be fair (and take this in no relation to the actual argument between you and Shadow) the last two gates should run in parallel, not sequentially.
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike yes, I prefer my inbox to be ~1000 and not ~10000 ;)
09:51
@SPArcheon how do you cross 2 gates at once?
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack WEAK
@SPArcheon my reading of this is that the order there is not relevant, really?
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike OR instead of AND
@SPArcheon english or programmers'a or ? :D
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike so we might have a bug, @balpha should superping create automatic notification for the pinged user, even if they didn't tick "Quicker notifications"?
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack balpha dosen't do chat no more
09:53
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike he can at least confirm. ;)
@JNat yes, sorry my bad, I had the following line wrong.
But yeah, that can be an FR but I've made a bug report and an FR. THREE posts in a day is too many ;)
@JNat my brain mixed the thing with the Giant Robot of Offense
dunno what that is
Some wierd anime where everyone dies? >_>
09:57
@JNat here. Originally linked in another chat room by BESW
@JNat well, it makes sense, and pity the author deleted their account, looks like a smart user. But sometimes I can't be sure if I'm correct or not, e.g. I honestly think management is saying things they don't mean to actually do, but no way to know it's true until the time my fears come true. Also hard to be kind when you say something negative, and as for necessary, well, very few times just saying opinion to be heard can be considered "necessary".
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike this description may apply to too many anime to be helpful ;P
@JNat that's half the joke
@JNat let's make it "where everyone dies at least three times" so that we can be sure he was talking about Dragon Ball?
@SPArcheon this description may apply to too many anime to be helpful too
10:00
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike You should be chained to a chair and made watch Tokyo Magnitude 8.
@MetaAndrewT. ^ I guess you realize what kind of torture this would be, right?
Worse than Grave of the Fireflies.
@SPArcheon grave
I've watched threads
and honestly I consider media an escape from depressive things :D
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike that was meant as a punishment so....
let's add School Live! and Girls Last Tour to the mix.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack I feel like you're giving these a very superficial reading, so you can easily dismiss them :\
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack If memory serves there's some history
and its less what's said than who said it
Well other than the source maybe
10:07
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike You mean like "we will never again misrepresent individual moderators on a media site"?
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack I think that's the point. If you can't be sure that it's true, and it's not strictly necessary, then why post it?
Actually not in this case
@Mithical this, yes
@SPArcheon I remember it being messier but I'm both brainfarting over the details, and feeling like there's a good reason not to dig too much into past drama :S
I also think (and admittedly I'm having a lot of these conversations) its about how we're read and reading people
Its easy to be 'accidentally' mean when frustrated (or clueless) and not realise the impact our words have on other folks
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Past? that "individual" word is what people argued about after the recent article about the "mods on strike". The "well, they never actually said they would not misrepresent multiple users, only single ones"
My point here is not digging.
10:11
Ah!
Current topic is not directly related to the AI mess at all
Well VERY VERY tangencially
Just pointing out that many users have reach a point where the company is no longer the service provider that made one mistake. They are seen as the enemy.
@SPArcheon Sure, and staff see the community as toxic and... to steal a phrase "Its a circle of suck"
Therefore, I can recognize why Shadow rants are annoying but I also see where they come from
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Bingo.
@SPArcheon and sometimes we need to consider where it gets us
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike yep, but my point is that ... we will have also probably to accept that they will go on for a while.
you can't hope that everyone will suddenly switch to "collaborative" mode
10:14
@SPArcheon Well no
You can't win everyone but you can try to get through to the ones you can
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike true, but I fear that you won't have many chances of success with Shadow right now.
If thing get better, maybe in a few months...
@SPArcheon You never know till you try.
and as someone who's been at some things for years - sometime it takes time and patience
And frankly - even if nothing changes, at least communication was attempted over how its seen?
@SPArcheon I should clarify that what brought me here to talk with Shadow is not "annoyance." Also worth clarifying: we also see where frustration comes from. And no one is saying users can't be frustrated; everyone's entitled to their own feelings and emotions. The point is much more about making communications constructive, in a way that ensures all parties feel it is worth to participate, and feel safe doing so.
Not all discussions/announcements are an opportunity to vent. If you truly don't have anything constructive and relevant to say for a particular discussion or request for feedback, maybe you can make space for those who do want to do that, and just read that particular discussion or... I don't know, just let it be and focus somewhere else where you can be constructive?
10:30
@PetLinux I'm not going to respond to pings in rooms I am not in
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike why?
Well, cause I'm not?
And I'm in the rooms that matter to me, and I really don't have the desire to get dragged into more
Hmm... weird.
You just can answer and leave...
hmm, bug?
@PetLinux well that's not a determination you can make. I literally don't owe anyone my time here
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike ok... ...
10:38
@JNat Again, I see your point. I was just pointing out that from their pov they are making something that is productive for them: telling the company that they don't trust them and before trying new actions they should fix the old problems.
@SPArcheon productive for them? Or for the discussion?
@JNat Totally for them obviously.
welp, that's my point, then
Example: did you saw my arguing about a comment that was copied and pasted on multiple posts in the nomination for the stakeholder group of the AI prompts site? The users telling mods that they was "deeply disappointed" at them "joining the bandwagon" during the strike?
I didn't
10:42
That was a separate post related to the strike only because it was still about AI. Yet that user saw other users participation as a betrayal.
That is your problem there. You would want to handle any discussion separately. So if users are mad at the AI strike they should still be collaborative about some UI change. I agree that would be nice, but I an just telling you that I see that as hopeful wishing...
They are mad and they will see the company as an enemy on everything until their heart is mended.
Again, it's ok to be frustrated. Where this becomes an issue is when every opportunity is used to further drive a wedge between the company and those from the community who might be willing to actually engage constructively
And again, I am not saying you are wrong. I am just telling you that I expect this to continue for a while and that this will probably become like fighting windmills.
Sadly as it may be, I fear that after multiple attempt it is clear that Shadow is still too angry to listen for now.
@SPArcheon that's for shadow to decide
@JNat @SPArcheon I'd argue being productive for them would mean something they want happening - and mere venting does not
(that said I do sometimes question if my more applied venting is effective sometimes but \o/. I can take the small wins, even if the big ones seem out of reach )
11:05
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike do you realize that pointing out that "they are evil" and make that visible to other users is probably enough for them at that point?
Nope
What does that actually achieve?
It makes it harder for folks who want positive changes to sell it internally, it lets hostile staff members (should they exist) paint us as hostile, and folks who're on the wall see the toxicity and not the historical anger behind it.
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike the only thing that many see useful at this point to change the global direction of the company: hit them wallet. Spread the word that the site is bad, make new users drop,make income drop.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack how did you found it?
@SPArcheon Can we hurt the company worse than they hurt themselves?
And the end result isn't positive change
its destruction
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Oh, trust me, we could. I am not that sure it would end up well but we could.
11:09
Sure, the company loses money, the CEO quits then what ?
Go figure someone going to some female right site telling Monica story for example.
sure, we have a few weeks of drama.
Would be a total mess.
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike I wanna push back on this framing, slightly. Imagine a new employee coming in, with no prior impression of the community (or perhaps a positive one, even), and in their first interaction with Meta getting met with the toxicity you're referring to (either directly, or because a CM working with them got it instead). How do you think that impacts that new employee's view of the community? And do you think it's fair to refer to that employee as "hostile" because of that?
But I don't get how that helps rehabilitating the community
11:10
And some may thing that would help
@JNat I was thinking more the sort who hate everyone
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike probably nothing. But again, it doesn't really matter when you are mad and what to "fight back"
A new employee starts neutral
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike you mean a hypothetical employee who hates indiscriminately, not the community specifically?
Even the "we will go down together" option probably feels fine enough in that case
11:11
@JNat I've heard horror stories about a specific company meet
imagine the worst of that :D
Someone who'd burn everything down if it benefits them, and considers the community nothing more than an annoyance. HYPOTHETICALLY, cause I hope no one is that terrible :D
But fundamentally how we act in these spaces to staff reflects how staff see us, unless they have context
(maybe even then!)
@JNat I'd say that's a flaw in onboarding then. If there's this much drama and disgruntlement, no one should be selling a sunny view of Meta to a new employee.
I think this hypothetical hostile staff member is a distraction from the main conversation, though, @JourneymanGeekOnStrike — if y'all aren't hostile, it becomes harder to paint you as such, no?
@JNat This also makes for very great doormats. Just wipe every bit of shit under your shoes on them, they don't get hostile anyways.
@Tinkeringbell I'm not saying that. I'm imagining a scenario in which an employee has made up their own view of the community, independently
11:14
@Tinkeringbell Meta's a acquired skillset, and the folks who can teach and guide... are thin on the ground
@JNat Hmm. I sincerely doubt their senses then, but okay.
@Tinkeringbell huh? I'm not saying you're either hostile or passive. That's your reading
@JNat Hostile, no, but there's a lot of pent up frustration that kinda doesn't have an adequate outlet
@Tinkeringbell I'd say it takes 1-2 years active in a community to get its meta, and a little more to get main meta
And - this might seem a bit harsh, but the company systematically dumped most of the people who could have helped onboard or mentor people on surviving and thriving on meta
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike I'm not saying it's easy. Just that in my opinion you can't have drama on Meta and have new employees that are left with a 'neutral' or even 'positive' impression.
If there's bad decisions like all those around AI happening now around, and a community pushing back on those, yeah... good luck pretending everything is 'neutral'.
@Tinkeringbell I mean, I oppose the AI stuff for practical reasons, and probably will be pushing more in the future
11:18
@Tinkeringbell you misinterpreted my hypothetical scenario as being tied to onboarding specifically. That's not what I had in mind. Maybe it was a bad hypothetical scenario.
but there's a difference between "Nothing will change" and "Y'all are horrible, evil people" vs "These things are not right, and we could fix them!"
And I think there's two? Three? problems here?
You're probably lumping things together then, there are a lot more.
We have a community that's somewhat frustrated, sprinkled with a few folks who're basically "We're done, burn it all down", with people ranging from "Y'all can do better" to "abandon ye all hope", a company that's a little confused over what community means to them and doesn't quite know how to deal with the large mob of bitey things, and occationally decisions from above that MUST BE DONE, but without a longer term view of what if it fails .
@Tinkeringbell no one accused me of omnicience :D
11:23
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike That is its own problem. You shouldn't need several years of experience to be able to discuss how a site works.
@Mithical Its always been a thing
@Mithical Actually, I'm mistaken here
I suspect more that it takes 2-3 years to be enthusiastic about SE enough (with knowledge) to thrive on meta
and our per site metas are not doing as well for mentoring users as they did either
(but that's a side problem, since I think dealing with meta is a acquirable skill a little faster)
also - I don't mean to use, like ask general questions, I mean to kinda 'master' or at least journeyman the skills :D
But I get distracted, and where were we? :D
Ah yeah, toxicity ._.
@Tinkeringbell "Caution: It bites" - but also its an useful tool, in the manner of a chainsaw. Use it right and it cuts through wood. Use it wrong and it cuts off an arm :D
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike To be honest, loads less of that floating around now than last time, at least in the flag queue.
@JNat Would I be out of line to bring up 'old' hiring practices and how they helped?
And most of what I handled there was aimed at other users, not even the company or employees.
I know most of the team's 'new style'/professional experience first
and I don't want to sound like they're any lesser
@Tinkeringbell I'm not looking :D
I really am like "ugh, SPAMMERS"
11:31
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Nope. But I am, and I'm telling you now.
@Tinkeringbell I also think this is a more general observation/something that is a bit of a barrier to better CM/Community communication than a 'right now' problem
There's a lot more :D
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Oh. Well if we're not talking about 'right now' problems, I too have a list of things...
Don't want to speak for everyone else.
I mean, as long as there's a hope things can be fixed, there's things we want fixed :D
11:35
I'm going to quote myself from... four years ago, now:
> And so here we are. On the one hand, we've got a handful of bitter, angry, beaten up and ignored core users, who do all the moderation of the site and provide a large percentage of the answers that makes Stack Exchange what it is. On the other hand, we have poor unsuspecting staff who are getting piled on by those above users simply because a.) they're bearing bad news and b.) they're staff.

This is untenable.

All that this is doing is making things even worse between staff and users. We need to resolve the problem on both sides - blaming just one side is not going to do anything, like
This is an issue we've been dealing with for a very long time now, and none of the core issued have been resolved; in some respects, they've gotten worse.
@Mithical .... this sounds remarkably similar to what we're still saying now ._.
like word for word.
(That's a little depressing ._.)
@Mithical "we need to resolve the problem on both sides" except I often see only one side (users/mods) attempting to resolve things only to be hit with the next bit of drama. No wonder nothing changed in four years.
If that employee is meet with people that shout "the company is evil" (because let be honest, outside of a few case even the hostile users never went out yelling "JNat/any other named employee is evil" - they focus their hate on the company not individuals) and does not ask themselves why they are mad we also have a problem. The employee may not know the history but they can look up the history...
Now, if internally they receive mails that tell them "everything is fine, we are doing great, we trust this will end soon" that is a separate problem someone mentioned on some blog./
@Tinkeringbell on the other hand, if we could have fixed the problem(s) ourselves we would - and to an extent being aware where we can do better is good.
@JNat That kinda needs a employee to know the community
How long did it take you to go from 'ooh shiny' to 'committed' to moderator?
and I'd ask where/how new staff would have had the same opportunities
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Except being told 'you can do better' all the time and not seeing the other side change? Yeah... at some point I'll settle for doing a bit less than my best. Otherwise, you end up with something similar to an abusive relationship.
11:48
@Tinkeringbell Yes, I am striking right? :D
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike And now, there's 'negotiations'. Which means you're still going to be forced to have to water down on what weren't unreasonable asks to begin with. No matter what you do, you will end up being the one told to 'do better' while at the same being constantly asked to 'expect less'.
I don't really need to strike to just lower expectations. Nor do I need to be told to do better to do so ;)
@Tinkeringbell which is almost always 'what I think needs doing'
and I've a point where I've told myself I'll walk out
Yep. If there's a good way to keep chatting with some of the users/mods I regularly chat with here... I'm probably gone soon too.
Doesn't really help that Twitter is the mess it is right now, things are getting more fragmentary instead of more consolidated atm.
@Tinkeringbell Twitter is a mess, reddit is a mess, discord has always been a mess.
And besides that, some of the stuff we chat about is directly related to what happens on these sites, and if that goes away, I doubt there'd be a lot of chatting happening.
Most conversations start that way then veer into a slightly different direction.
11:56
@Tinkeringbell we can suggest you some manga to read.
Nah thanks.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack o/ was enjoying the return of US holidays to my life
12:17
@SPArcheon Its almost like running good social software and making a profit is hard
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike more like "if you are trying to scam a community soon or later they will revolt"
Reminder: reddit started with fake users in order to give the false idea that it was already widely used.
@SPArcheon Well, more of - the priorities of people who are good at starting and running a community, and the priorities of revenue first are... different
They're not orthoganal
yet some communities built on good intentions manage to fund themselves.
@SPArcheon then you get a musk or that guy who runs reddit
12:39
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike the proof that to make money you need money, not ethics nor ideas.
 
2 hours later…
14:14
@SPArcheon reminds me that I've never finished watching TM8 since I expected Disaster Report instead...
@MetaAndrewT. the punch-in-the-gut is all in the last 2 (3?) episodes
 
1 hour later…
 
3 hours later…
18:30
Hi @Mithical,
You're one of the elected representatives for the strike, right?
The strike has been going for about a month, but I haven't seen any updates since [2023-06-26](https://meta.stackexchange.com/a/390704/938841). Is there going to be some kind of update posted soon?
i mean, we've had a weekend and a us holiday since then
so like, 3 real days
18:59
@ElementsinSpace I see that there's an update on July 2 though privately; they're in the middle of collecting feedback related to mod-specific changes.
@MetaAndrewT. Okay, thanks. I guess I'll just try to be patient.
19:16
@ElementsinSpace hopefully within the next couple days there should be some announcements
3
@Mithical That's good to know, thank you.
 
2 hours later…
21:01
@Mithical from our side of the negotiations? Or from the company side?
21:12
Why was my question closed? meta.stackexchange.com/q/390850/1370400
@starball yes
 
1 hour later…
22:27
@SPArcheon Oof. That show was... intense. T_T

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