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00:30
@Tinkeringbell :/ Because of Nøkken?
 
1 hour later…
01:58
Good morning.
@Spevacus this was also the period where the company was trying their best to shed, or cause to quit CMs
02:43
Yeah :(
03:17
Yeah, the head of public Q&A at the time had a notable disdain for the CM team...
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog wierdly? I don't really think that was Sara
She wouldn't have tried to help Cat if she did
stuff further up the company was rotten from what I heard, like the infamous all hands meeting people keep hinting at
04:12
@Glorfindel Just a question: given the current events, are you open at all to deploying new editing scripts on the sites?
 
2 hours later…
06:13
@AndreasdetestsAIhype Nah, just adults being dumb themselves or not watching their kids properly.
@SPArcheon something about me finds it cute that Peter Mortenson linked for "Princess Zelda" :P
06:57
@CodyGray-onstrike got caught! On strike, but:
:D
@Spevacus huh, figures.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog haven't thought about it yet...
@Tinkeringbell even tap water? ;)
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack Tap water is cold too, yes :D
But warmer than "nature", I think.
@Glorfindel If you would, it'd be nice if you made a script that would change old meta.stackoverflow.com/posts/[x]/[y] links with IDs less than 250000 so they're not broken (i.e., change the domain to meta.stackexchange.com).
Those pre-split links weren't edited as part of the rewrite scripts that took place in 2014 when the MSO-MSE split took place.
07:04
@Tinkeringbell good for you, during really hot and sunny days, tap water are hotter than tea here. ;(
When the split happened, SE set the threshold at 250000 for post IDs on the new MSO, and links to posts with IDs lower than that redirect back here so those links aren't broken. However, the redirect only works for direct post links, not for history, timeline, or various other links.
Isn't that something that SE can change without bumping?
oh wait, that tool doesn't support regex
07:44
@Tinkeringbell Not during the winter. The pipe heating warms up the water.
@starball Had I know that someone would go linking to the wikipedia page for the character I would have picked someone more obscure
@starball Wait, even better.... Something about the actor who played as Aragorn...
Peter has lots of surprises.
08:04
@Blue Reinstate Monica! YEAH!
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack happy puppy plays with kitten
@PetLinux the other Peter. :D
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack we are legion in Peters.
@Spevacus remember when I said something about "this looks like the final cashgrab before shutting down a gacha game"?
@SPArcheon if I say "mhm" would you go on
08:10
May 31 at 18:04, by SPArcheon
So, I AM actually starting to wonder if this is just the last desperate move to cash in on our content before shutting down the site
@AndreasdetestsAIhype That sounds gross XD
@SPArcheon Someone already cashed out :D
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack Peter tends to link pop culture stuff
@M.A.R. Be aware of me I have a Hand
@Tinkeringbell Oh, you know. It’s just the usual; you call the local plumber, and tell him your pipe’s leaking.
not sure if he's as bad as you on that, or helpful enough to assume that people don't know
08:12
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike doesn't he do it with a script?
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike I would ask for the context of this claim but I suppose it is like Voldemort's name.
@M.A.R. I doubt it
@Tinkeringbell But in seriousness: it’s not that warm. But it is a bit annoying.
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike who is this one?
@SPArcheon The company was sold out to prosus
@PetLinux the Editor
08:13
@AndreasdetestsAIhype there's a drug for that
@PetLinux Be aware, @M.A.R. has 3 kidneys.
@AndreasdetestsAIhype I mostly only like my water cold, preferably from the fridge. Anything else is often easily too warm.
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike sus
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike ah, that. Quite old, I was talking about prosus itself
08:14
@SPArcheon I doubt they will close down, more likely to sell out, or try to integrate/extract value with their other products
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike as a resident of the ELU chatroom I should implore you to stop butchering the language. It's "beware"
@M.A.R. I WILL HAVE MY VENGENCE AGAINST ENGLISH! OR THE ENGLISH! THOSE THIEVES OF VOCABULARY!
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike En garde, monsieur!
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike I was trying to be brief there, my actual view is that they have cast multiple fishing lines in hope to catch something.
08:16
@Tinkeringbell Tap water temperature is usually fine.
The new site with the potential sponsorship, selling dumps to LLM (problem: the datasets are already on Hugging Face... they can't even do a search??), workforce reduction etc.
@SPArcheon Wanting to do a pivot to new shiny thing, cost cutting to justify it, fails poorly...
Much panic
Mein Name ist Inigo Montoya. Du hast Meine Grammatik getötet. Bereite dich darauf zu storben!
clears sweat from brow
hm
You sound angry
Wait. Sterben. Not storben
08:19
Someone at prosus must have realized that they were quite a fine bunch of deluded guys in thinking Stack would bring much $$$. And now they are desperate to cash on something, anything.
Germans kick down door
@M.A.R. ....99 luftballons....
@SPArcheon sounds like Twitter case.
@SPArcheon doesn't need to be about SO per se. The AI hype itself seems justification enough
@M.A.R. bah, consider this: the high command has shown multiple times that they don't even know what the site is doing in the first place. So, it requires actual effort from them to come up with new ideas.
If the site was already making them enough money then they would not try to change anything because of operational inertia.
The fact that the high command had to come out of lethargy is a sign that they want more $$$
Seems reasonable to assume that the site is NOT healthy from a financial point of view.
08:29
The sites don't cost that much to run
@Jour Are you programmer?
cool. More time for moderation ;)
I'm on strike :D
More time for strike. ;)
08:55
Technically the strike means more free time :D
> There's a few policies in the pipeline - here's one, and there's another one that's not been officially announced that a good many moderators are opposed to. I'll update when (or if) it goes through, but it's not great.
oh, wait, for a second I read that one as a different policy from the just announced one.
My mistake.
@SPArcheon As per the initial strike post, there was a policy that was postponed indefinitely
09:11
@SPArcheon It hasn't happened yet
That's literally there as a canary, and I'd edit it in if it became public
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike oh, so IT IS a second policy.
The second shoe?
Well the shoe we were expecting anyway
I will neither confirm nor deny any other gravitationally affected footware until it happens
so nice of the company to let us experience how Damocles felt.
Do confirm and deny smelly feet, though.
09:15
@SPArcheon at least I know what it could be :D
Lets hope you never find out
I think there's sufficent pressure to keep that from happening hopefully so we have only one problem to deal with for now
Is it wrong of me to kinda hope that it’s happening?
@AndreasdetestsAIhype Depends
It’ll probably be the final straw that we need to move the entire core community to another platform.
I want a way out and to fix what we have
I don’t really think it can be fixed anymore.
09:19
Yeah but you're angry, I'm disappointed
We're not the same :D
Not really no
I know what it could be, and occationally even let myself believe its doable :D
@Catija @JNat probably you want to answer to this one.
0
Q: Email from "[email protected]" - is it legit?

GreenmartyI've received email from "[email protected]" is it legit? How can i tell? I won't quote whole thing but in short it's asking feedback for new feature .. We’re testing a new feature and we'd love to hear what you think of it... It includes sign up for chat "button" with link that star...

If it is legit, let them know. If it is not, it is not the best time to let someone pose as Stack.
09:43
The domain looks legit
yep, but considering someone recent activity on meta, I trust NOTHING
10:14
@SPArcheon it's just about that new site. Probably, didn't see it as I'm not subscribed to research emails.
10:29
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack I doubt they would reach out to a <200 rep SO "new" user
@SPArcheon looking into it
10:47
@SPArcheon Why not?
Sometimes different perspectives are good
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike not "experts".
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack Sometimes people who are not 'experts' in a field might have useful perspectives
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike agree, just explained the likely reason for what @SPA said. ;)
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike because I doubt they would pick out users that do not seem interested in the site in the first place.
@SPArcheon well, the user found meta (SE, not SO) and asked
they apparently choose well :D
10:53
@SPArcheon they don't pick them up. There's "Research" category in email settings, so whoever dare tick it (or have it ticked by default) probably get those mails.
First, shouldn't the council come first?
Second, if they want a small number of "evangelist" MVP style they will carefully pick players that are useful to the cause.
Third, I assume that the research is not to check if this would work, it is to prove it will work. So... see the point above.
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Wasn't Meta where evil users go?
They. Chose. Well
@SPArcheon not sure what you mean, looks like you're over complicating it? My point is, that when there's new research (may it be for a new feature, or a new site) they blindly send those emails. In this case they also asked on MSE, but it's not related to emails as far as I can tell.
Also, what council? Mod council is no more, you mean the strike representatives?
 
2 hours later…
13:25
I think Tink should get extra diamond once all of this is over. She's doing amazing job. While against my own opinions and ideas (as it pretty much nullify the strike), I can't help but admire this. Kudos!
Maybe SE will make her mod on all sites. :D
sipping coffee slowly
13:44
....
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack do you hate her? :D
She is handling things, sure but if she's a mod on all sites, that's punishment
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike so... CM!
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack ... Just how much DO you hate tink? :D
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike which seems in line with how (some) good mods/employees were rewarded lately.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack Well they'd really, really have to make me then... You do realize they hire CMs only to fire them like 18 months later?... I have a good, stable job now. Why oh why would I ever be tempted to give that up for such a thing XD
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike so... special CM! New role just for her. ;)
13:52
You'd have to be an idiot to want to be a CM :D
@Tinkeringbell 180 diamonds, they worth a lot. ;)
(no one's accused me of being smart yet)
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack Yeah but stable jobs pay bills continually.
Just let Geek reap whatever I'm sowing here. He wants it.
@Tinkeringbell work hard, and step up the ladder then. Final goal: CEO. :D
13:54
@Tinkeringbell Its pretty doubtful short of... a minor miracle that i'd get it I think
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack Oh never. I don't like pointy hair
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Well I won't be the one getting in the way, at least.
@Tinkeringbell even when it points at you?!
Especially then.
Pity.
shaving head
@SPArcheon Just dropping by to say I loved reading your post just now. I stabbed the upvote button a few times, even though only one was counted.
14:08
@Boots that post is starting to become worrying popular. 150+ votes, means that a big slice of the userbase thinks the same.
And I can't blame them since it is always the same "canovaccio" that plays out again and again and again...
Top answer on a popular (or infamous) question will always garner knee-kick votes.
I'm just glad that I divested myself away from this place - the events surrounding Monica's departure really affected my mental health. The more you care about something, the more something negative affects you.
14:25
That a interesting new about Tinkeringbell.
Guessed, but didn't knew that she are she.
please don't start a ShadowWizardQuest now.
Spoiler - I'm not actually a dog
and @ShadowWizardStrikesBack isn't actually a Wizard
@M.A.R. is Tom tho
That... a wow.
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike And he is actually a Shadow. :D
14:34
Oh he is.
HE KNOWS WHAT EVIL LURKS IN THE HEARTS OF MEN!
But not where his socks are.
( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shadow_(1994_film) ) since @ShadowWizardStrikesBack has no idea about these things :D )
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike why is the is word is italics?
@PetLinux that's an adjective, not a noun. He once was "Merry Wizard" then they became depressed thanks to the company actions.
@PetLinux well it's no secret and now you know. ;)
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike I'm HeZard.
14:36
@PetLinux Because it is
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack and a Hazard
there have been rumor of a imminent change to "Gloomy Wizard"
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike rofl!
strange behavior
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike Dukes of?
14:38
@SPArcheon can't, I'm Shadow above all, Wizard is the secondary occupation. :D
Gloomy Shadow of Gloom?
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack but from where you know
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike too much gloo
Bloom
Better gloo than igloo
14:40
eating waffle
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack you have Russian keyboard? :D
@JourneymanGeekOnStrike iGloo is just the online version
or Hebrew also has these
@PetLinux Twitter, and she told before. Somewhere, probably here. ;)
well I have a numpad so it easy to type. ;)
14:42
@PetLinux nah, was busy eating so made a typo
@PetLinux these what? & character? I just pressed 7 instead of 8 while shift is pressed. :D
ah. relaxes
too many work was today.
@PetLinux I never use numpad, numlock is always off. :P
Wouldn't a waffle be a #? :D
nah my waffles are longer
Maybe
#
#
#
Long and thin, and yummy. :D
Maybe
###
###
###
My waffles are bigger and yummer. :D
14:50
@PetLinux but you have to add the chocolate yourself, that's extra step. My waffles already have it inside! ;)
15:10
Imagine playing noughts and crosses in a literal waffle
Winner gets to eat it
@SPArcheon Did I miss something?
1 hour ago, by Boots
@SPArcheon Just dropping by to say I loved reading your post just now. I stabbed the upvote button a few times, even though only one was counted.
@AndreasdetestsAIhype and based on the timing I assume they were talking about this
@SPArcheon Thanks. Good post.
15:34
I’m kinda ready to move to another platform. I just want the commuty to move with me.
But I have too much SUNK COST!
My sunk cost is sinking. And my interest is waning. Doesn't help that I'm drowning right now
My patience is waning, is this entertaining?
Dank, reading "sunk" and "drowning" here while I'm watching live news about the sub...
@AndreasdetestsAIhype I would like to make some joke about suggesting you to move to some mobile gacha game, but I can't think of a decent one that would cause the same pain....
Maybe the recently launched Street Fighter one? I heard the rare characters rates are trash....
15:44
@SPArcheon I'd say the Kaiji one...
@PetLinux Oh. I've always known :P
hmm... but you always know all about you, even secrets :D
That's depends on who you ask. There are theories out there that every person has a side to them only others notice
Even so? Wow
16:21
@SPArcheon I’ve had to deal with some mobile games… Or Minecraft servers as a child… Some of those can be quite toxic, especially when you can spend some money to earn yourself the right to harass other poor victims.
That reminds me of a guy that joined various servers just to do harassments, be a bully, and destroy everything others built on creative servers. Eventually, Mojang wrote an article on their website, praising this guy. I contacted Mojang over e-mail, but eventually got told by the support agent (ironically had the same name as the praised guy) to go fuck off.
16:40
@AndreasdetestsAIhype Google: did you mean: roblox?
@AndreasdetestsAIhype reminds me of that odd feeling you get playing the binding of isaac
@AndreasdetestsAIhype Codi?
@MetaAndrewT. yeah, sad, but they were aware of the risks. :/
@SPArcheon Never tried Roblox.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack Yeah. But they need a chat. Maybe it's a call to contribute with some code. I guess I could provide some low-quality code for a chat similar to the one on SE.
@AndreasdetestsAIhype it's low priority because of Discord, so another chat would be kind of redundant.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack I don't like Discord, and a site like Codidact should have its own chat, and not rely on a third-party service like Discord, which is hosted separately.
@AndreasdetestsAIhype my son did, but without paying. At some point he realized there's nowhere to advance without paying, so he doesn't play anymore.
@AndreasdetestsAIhype totally agree, will upvote the meta post about it if and when I'll join.
kaboom! My vote removed it from homepage. :D
16:55
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack This is not a post I would advocate for being featured.
This post, for reference.
@AndreasdetestsAIhype I know, and they can't feature all of them.
Though childish in a sense, I feel satisfied. lol
hmm is it CM's or CMs?
CMs, probably?
@SPArcheon In your post, you call SE out for presenting lies to the media. That's fair, and well deserved, but for context; we started contacting the media about this particular strike before SE did; I mentioned doing so the 01.06, and we started compiling a list of media contacts/articles on the 04.06.
That particular article is from June 5, after we had started contacting news outlets and journalists.
I don't know if anybody started contacting the media about the strike before this.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack Both are acceptable, depending on what style guide you consult
@AndreasdetestsAIhype You didn't create a binding legal document that said you wouldn't contact the press
@Laurel I'm not defending SE in any way here. It's just useful to keep in mind that we initiated the media coverage of the strike, and not SE.
17:13
@cocomac well, I read that as CMS so that's bit confusing.
Meta post? ;)
Dear CMs/CM's: is the plural of CM CMs or CM's?
@Laurel yeah, asking because @JNat changed CM's to CMs. Not challenging it, just wonder if that's really the standard.
I changed what where?
@AndreasdetestsAIhype did your version include misrepresentation of individuals or groups?
Here you go @ShadowWizardStrikesBack
307
Q: What is the correct way to pluralize an acronym / initialism?

JohnFxFor example, if I wanted to write the equivalent of There are many automated teller machines in this city. Would it be There are many ATMs in this city. or There are many ATM's in this city. (could get confused with possessive form or contraction). or just There are many ATM in this city. ...

;)
17:15
@JNat not diapers, no worry. :-D
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack if you're talking about a group of Community Managers, the right way to pluralize that would be to add an "s" at the end, I believe. The apostrophe would denote possessiveness, so "CM's" would be used to denote something that a single CM owns, I'd say (example: "the CM's prose was not that eloquent")
also, that was not my edit
or was the original text mine, is your point?
if so, that was a typo on my part, from just that screenshot
17:18
yeah well it was a CM ;)
we're all the same to you, is what you're saying? ;P
Somehow I confuse a lot between you and @V2Blast lol
@SPArcheon No. To cite myself: "I'm not defending SE in any way here."
@JNat in a way! But each unique and awesome. :P
@JNat so, you use CMs or CM's?
@JNat We like to lump you into one big group so we can blame you all collectively when things go wrong :D
2
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack to refer to Community Managers, plural? CMs
@Spevacus cute!
@cocomac but...
> For example, SOs for "Significant Others" looks like an incorrectly capitalized SOS.
ATMs is fine. ;)
@JNat need to make a poll then. ;)
If you asked on MSE, I'd give you a +1 :)
@cocomac glad to see my understanding corroborated ^_^
17:39
I personally never use apostrophes for pluralization (except maybe in the very rare case of pluralizing a single lowercase letter)
It's a pet peeve of mine
(But then I might just have a lot of pet peeves. There's a reason I have the most edits of all time on RPG.SE... and on our internal Teams instance :P)
@V2Blast fair!
@V2Blast and I have the most pings in chat. ;) (as the giver)
Haha
18:11
@Shadow I very much enjoy discussing how email sending and tracking is terrible on comments
@V2Blast Getting a diamond network-wide has truly enabled your copyediting obsession :D
18:28
Another glorious day of the moderators on strike, hope everyone is doing great!
@Spevacus :D
@EvanCarroll Well it is raining and it has finally cooled down a bit (apartment is back into the low 22 degrees Celsius) but I also got a period soooo... Nah.
That's a great informative update. Thanks for sharing.
You're welcome!
I always enjoy bashing hopes
18:44
@Tinkeringbell ...or giving hopes...
:D
Sucks for others. My hopes are impervious to bashing.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack When did I ever do that?
@EvanCarroll Oh, so more like a punching bag? That's good to know, free bashing for me!
19:35
I would like to take a moment to remind everyone that "ignore" is also a functionality of SE chatrooms and not just a state of mind.
 
3 hours later…
22:41
I watched 10 minutes of a video and read a few YouTube comment threads; it looks pretty much like what I was warning about, down to the (perhaps performative) surprise when the computer doesn't read minds, and "therefore all the rest of our philosophical standpoint is correct!". And what do you know, Robert Miles is active on LessWrong. One of the constraints on their theory is that it only applies to agenty things, of which genAI isn't (though systems that use them – such as corporations – can be). — wizzwizz4 27 mins ago
@wizzwizz4 any suggestions on how I can get a more "balanced diet" of info?
@starball My strategy was "learn enough that you start to see through it".
You could try following people like Emily M. Bender and Janelle Shane: they usually have good takes.
@wizzwizz4 For this, I'd advise learning enough about agenty AI that the stuff they're saying starts to seem obvious and boring; then you won't get as distracted by it.
The LessWrong school of thought definitely dominates online AI discourse.
A route I haven't tried (because I'm terrible at literature searches) but should work is to look at academic publications. Most of the best takes I've seen have been published in journals.
And ignore (read: take with a pinch of salt) everyone who talks about "aligning" non-agenty AI systems. They're not using the word "alignment" properly, which suggests they don't actually know what it means.
Stephen Wolfram is often a bit of a self-promoting crank, but What is ChatGPT Doing ... and Why Does It Work? is a pretty solid introduction to transformer-based predictive text systems.
It doesn't go into the self-attention mechanism (which, unfortunately, I still don't quite understand), and you should take all the "and therefore the Wolfram Language is the greatest thing ever!" bits with a pinch of salt…
… and the signal:noise ratio trails off as the article continues; you can safely stop reading around:
> So what about trajectories? We can look at the trajectory that a prompt for ChatGPT follows in feature space—and then we can see how ChatGPT continues that:
And when he talks about how surprising its behaviour is, all that is actually really obvious to someone with a good understanding (or even a poor understanding, like me). But apart from that: solid, and should give you a decent background for wading through the hype.
@wizzwizz4 what does "agenty" mean?
@starball It "wants" something, and it "acts" to satisfy that "want".
Basically everything that moves on otoro.net.
@wizzwizz4 alrighty
22:56
More concretely: an "optimising agent" is something that receives a "worldstate" as input, and performs an action that modifies that worldstate such that, in expectance, it better satisfies some utility function.
@ShadowWizardStrikesBack the community team or the community team's is less ambiguous
GPT-2 isn't an agent, because it's not optimising anything. All it "cares about" is predicting the next word as well as it can: it only "cares about" what it does, and not the in-the-world consequences of that.
The GPT part of ChatGPT is, likewise, not an agent. However, because ChatGPT has a user feedback system, the overall system might technically be an agent, optimising for people pressing the thumbs-up button. If we assume this feedback is used for supervised fine-tuning of the GPT model, then after a while, it would tend to start showing adversarial behaviour.
Thank you for attending my TEDx talk.
2
You’re most welcome.
23:22
@wizzwizz4 *claps
If any actual AI experts want to fulfil Cunningham's law, go ahead.

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