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05:44

stackoverflow.blog/2023/02/28/…

Journeyman Geek

@Feeds The onebox you have been waiting for

→ 12 messages moved to Chimney

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

When the prior post about community roles came up, it mentioned "deputy moderators" as an example, and I was thinking of posting an answer similar to that about having a special moderator position for those who are under 18 where they have access to almost all site moderation features except those involving accessing PII and other specific capabilities that the legal team indicates are necessary, as well as not having access to other areas of moderator space (private chat rooms and the Mod Team) where other mods can share PII. I couldn't think of good arguments, though. — Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog yesterday

@Mithical If I'd have posted such an answer, what would you have thought about it?

Mithical

06:00

Not very helpful. You cannot moderate effectively without communication with the rest of the team; being cut off from the spaces designated to do that mean that communication becomes extremely difficult. You can't get guidance or advice, which is a necessity for any mod. Also, many mod tools involve PII to a certain extent for verification and clarity, such as suspensions. You'd basically be given unilateral delete and close abilities.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Mithical Well, comments can't really contain much detail. In such an answer I'd have said that a special private chat room could be established where the minor deputy mod would have explicit write access similar to a non-mod, where they can all communicate, but where sharing PII would be considered a violation of the moderator agreement.

Journeyman Geek

Aside from "we don't have any underaged mods right now" - which was a consideration...

Its probably easier to get a concent form, even if it needs (eww) lawyers than try to work out exactly where the lines a sub 18 year old can legally do stuff (which also needs lawyers)

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

On Wikipedia, most admins don't have PII access or access to redacted material, as I said in a chat conversation I linked in that question's comments, yet they're still able to do their job. Only a single-digit percentage hold CheckUser or Oversight privileges.

Journeyman Geek

This isn't wikipedia

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek As the comments there show, some users are opposed to the possibility of their PII being shown to minors, even if they have the required legal clearances.

Journeyman Geek

06:13

Some people are opposed to their PII being seen at all

I don't feel like 'can we trust sub 18 year olds' was something that actually came up

It should have, but \o/

(and the answer is always 'it depends')

and mods do share/have to share PII in some cases - over teams for example

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek "not having access to other areas of moderator space (private chat rooms and the Mod Team) where other mods can share PII"

Journeyman Geek

Yes which means also being cut off from a ton of institutional knowledge

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Alternative option: the team goes through the Teams site and scrubs it of extant PII, then announces that PII can't be shared there any longer, at which point the site can be opened to minor deputy mods

Journeyman Geek

.....

Which makes some moderation tasks impossible

Its there cause we need a place to share those things securely

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek They then establish a new Team where only adult mods have access.

Journeyman Geek

06:24

Which means handling 2 extra sites, since teams are isolated from each other

and with teams moving out I ended up needing a tab for the teams I'm using for various things

and teams notifications for things suck

and...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Realistically, this all stems from SE's laziness in 2009 by not adopting Wikipedia's model of limiting PII and redacted material access to a limited subset of non-mods and having clear policies of where such data can be shared. Wikipedia admins are allowed to be under 18 because WMF was prescient enough to keep these items separate from the get-go.

Journeyman Geek

WMF has more staff, everywhere

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek They didn't have more staff at the time those policies were established. It only consisted of Jimmy Wales and a handful of people in the early 2000s.

Mithical

07:39

@JourneymanGeek Yeah, I didn't think this was really something that was up for debate since that 2012 post.

The pushback from that angle slightly blindsided me.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Mithical Which 2012 post?

Mithical

-90

Q: Evaluating the risks of allowing teen moderators on the SE network

I have a David vs Goliath case here involving a teen moderator on Stack Overflow. His display name is BoltClock. I'm a low reputation SO user (less than 150 points) who was recently suspended for Voting Irregularities by BoltClock. Eventually the mistake was corrected by another non-teen moderat...

Journeyman Geek

08:26

@Mithical I think part of the 'personal' annoyance is I helped review that decision, and didn't think of that. My main focus was on current mods, and well, its something we could have done better

@Mithical TBF, that was someone being a complete jerk

and the mod's age dosen't really matter there

A mistake was made (and these things happen), it was reviewed and sorted out

I think the one 'reaction' to this might be hiding the names of mods involved

tripleee

08:51

flag-pls spam (MS) german.stackexchange.com/a/73096

Meta Andrew T.

Coming from another side of the argument, I think COPPA 13 vs GDPR 16 makes it more complicated now compared to back then, and requiring a mod to be at least 18 is a shortcut.

This is kind of a response to Grace Note's answer regarding only requiring the minimum of TOS 13.

Journeyman Geek

09:45

@MetaAndrewT. the COPPA and GDPR ages are for access tho

so someone american between 13+ and 18 can use the site and not be eligible for moddery, and likewise 16+ to 18

Mithical

@JourneymanGeek Not sure I'm following what you meant here.

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical the age limit was vetted by the mod council

and generally no one saw the 'we don't trust under 18s' angle ._.

Mithical

10:02

Because that wasn't how it was presented. It was presented as "execs caught wind of minor mods and panicked".

tripleee

flag-pls spam (MS) serverfault.com/a/1123952

Journeyman Geek

10:44

@Mithical this happens a lot ._.

If only they had a team of people skilled in managing communities...

Mithical

This was also a while ago now, and management has changed, so I figured we might have a chance of changing a panic-induced policy.

tripleee

flag-pls spam (MS) gamedev.stackexchange.com/a/204669

flag-pls spam same spammer (MS) workplace.stackexchange.com/a/190271

Journeyman Geek

11:19

→ 4 messages moved to Chimney

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

11:33

@JourneymanGeek Before making this claim whenever someone tries to come up with Wikipedia analogs for procedures, at least be sure to point out the specific difference in the specific policy they mention. Just because we're a different site doesn't mean we have to necessarily handle everything differently.

@ShadowWizardChasingStars Same goes here

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog sorry, not convinced. You can't use other site policy and say "See! They have this policy, so we can do the same."

You'll always find some site that has the policy you want.

Be it Wikipedia, Reddit, GitHub, etc.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

What I'm saying is, make an argument for why the policy doesn't apply, instead of simply dismissing it as "it's another site". The whole point of me pointing out analogous policies is so we can research those and see if they're applicable here.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@tripleee -6, still up

Two others already gone.

Mithical

@ShadowWizardChasingStars nuked

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@JNat light weight cross site spammer to start your day. Thanks!

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

11:43

As an example, say I make the claim "Wikipedia allows under-18 users to be administrators so we should also allow under-18 users to become mods". Instead of simply saying "We are not Wikipedia", say "Wikipedia doesn't allow its admins to view PII or redacted material whereas mod privileges here do allow for that, and there's legal issues with disclosing these materials to those under 18, so we can't apply that policy here."

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@Mithical so only one downvotes, that's not so bad. Thanks!

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@ShadowWizardChasingStars A formerly giant S there

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog OK, I read it. And can't see how it's relevant to what I was talking about, that posts that are not spam or offensive should be flagged as such only because the author is some troll or spammer.

Yes trolls do bad things, yes trolls should be nuked from orbit asap, but this should be done properly, by mods or SE staff.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@ShadowWizardChasingStars To be clear, the argument I was trying to make there is that such posts should be deleted on sight without regard to quality - I thought you were arguing that such posts should be kept if of high quality. As far as red flagging goes, the reasons for doing so are in the Charcoal Team post.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I'll call Jeff ;)

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

11:50

So if you want to argue against those reasons, go join the Team, find those reasons, and post a new discussion there.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog so custom flag, explain, and the mod should delete it. Simple.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog no thanks. I just won't flag, I also don't give those fp feedback anymore.

Mithical

12:06

@JourneymanGeek ...I'm feeling a little bit like this at the moment, with some of the recent comments:

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical ....

So I just realised I'm at the age if I call someone uncle or aunty, they may get offended :D

@Mithical on the post?

Mithical

Yeah, comments on the post

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Sonic politician is expected to lie, one who don't lie will never become a good or popular politician. So that example is totally not relevant here, as others said already. — Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars 5 mins ago

@ShadowWizardChasingStars I think you meant to ping Robert in this comment, not me. They're the one who initially brought up the wrong analogy

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical so here's my problem

while I do realise the general problem with the tone...

politicians ruin everything

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog oh, I'll check

@JourneymanGeek duh, that's trivial.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

12:40

Congratulations Rosie, Catija, Dalmarus, and Bella_Blue for promotion to Senior Community Manager, and to @JNat to Lead Community Manager for Enablement!

3

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

12:52

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog pin? /cc @rene @Mith

heh JNat the only one pingable.

Some also got "associate" title, but not sure it's promotion. Wonder what it means?

Journeyman Geek

Associate is the 'base' level

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@JourneymanGeek isn't the base level just "Community Manager"?

e.g. Sasha, the newest one.

Journeyman Geek

so if I recall its (theoratically) intern -> associate -> community manager -> senior -> staff -> ???

@ShadowWizardChasingStars I think they can hire at either level

I could be wrong, I don't work here :D

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@JourneymanGeek if that's true some got downgraded then. Sad.

(from Community Manager to "only" Associate Community Manager.)

Journeyman Geek

The page(s) are not really authoritative

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

12:55

@JourneymanGeek ummmm

See MSE.

It was edited by the boss of the CM team.

Journeyman Geek

ya

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

Can't be more authoritative than that.

Well, SE is business, guess it's harsh but needed to demote employees sometimes, at least it's not lay offs.

waffles

are tasty!

yes!!!

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizardChasingStars Ehhh... do consider it may not have been a 'true' demotion, just the page not being correct but internally they knew ;)

And that's if the 'ranking' Geek provided is correct :P

Journeyman Geek

or up to date

I mostly stopped poking at / don't hear as much about inside the company as I used to

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

13:13

:(

JNat

14:09

@ShadowWizardChasingStars you're reading into it — seniority was previously not reflected in that post, and now it is. I'm a senior CM, and lead for the Enablement side of the CEE team, but I've held that role and level of seniority for a while now; the changes don't reflect any recent changes

SPArcheon

14:38

@JourneymanGeek sorry to ping you, can't remember this right now. Are you able to move messages around on any chat room?

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@JNat ohh I see, thanks. Thought there were senior CM's there before, didn't check revisions deeply enough.

@SPArcheon no need for Mr. Geek for that, I can tell you as well. He can move messages freely on any room here on MSE domain, and in se.com domain being a mod on SU as well. But not on SO.

What message you want moved?

SPArcheon

@ShadowWizardChasingStars posted some message on Arquade but they were meant from Anime.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SPArcheon so yeah, he should be able to move it for you. But any RO on arqade can.

SPArcheon

@ShadowWizardChasingStars none around right now, so I tried with them instead.

Journeyman Geek

14:57

@SPArcheon uh

on MSE or SU sure

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

Well maybe he went out for a Journey...

huh lol

Journeyman Geek

can link me the message(s) and rooms?

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

taking popcorn

SPArcheon

@JourneymanGeek start on this and then up to the message where I mention the error, move to this room

thanks

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

asking @Eleeza to create an app that will help make the perfect popcorn by listening to the pops and telling exactly when to stop the microwave, so that you'll get neither burned popcorns nor unpopped ones

Journeyman Geek

15:02

@SPArcheon can verify its the right room?

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

in Maid Café (メイド喫茶) on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 40 secs ago, by Journeyman Geek

← 12 messages moved from The Bridge

Journeyman Geek

Well yes

but I want to be sure

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

Looks fine to me. ;)

Well if @SPA was mistaken it's their problem. :D

(mistaken now, in the link posted)

Meta Andrew T.

as a mod on Anime.SE... yes, that's the right room

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@MetaAndrewT. hi! You let @Journeyman do all the hard work, then pop in, nice. :P

SPArcheon

15:03

@JourneymanGeek perfect thanks again

Journeyman Geek

@ShadowWizardChasingStars like a cop in an indian movie!

2

SPArcheon

@ShadowWizardChasingStars he could not do that... because Anime is the destination, not the source.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SPArcheon I believe he's expecting some payment. Maybe two sheep will suffice.

@SPArcheon so? Moderator on any of Stack Exchange sites get full power in all se.com chats.

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon mods can mod 'any' chatroom

other than on MSE and SO - which can be modded by its own mods only

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

yeah, only two exceptions. It's all about the domains.

SPArcheon

15:06

@JourneymanGeek I still confuse the CM powers with the regular elected mod ones

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SPArcheon how is this related?

Journeyman Geek

@SPArcheon well - chat's kinda wierd

and mostly CMs are 'mods everywhere + extra stuff mostly mods need to bother them with'

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

In chat they all have exactly the same powers, afaik.

SPArcheon

@JourneymanGeek I assume you never saw this one clip?

The Indian CHUCK NORRIS (VERRY FUNNY)

►

Went quite viral some years ago.

best part is 1.30 when the bad guys realize.

apparently called Singham

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

15:31

@ShadowWizardChasingStars Hello there

My programming skills are not quite there yet lol

Ah, yes, Bollywood movies, of which I have seen… maybe three or four

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

it’s funny because they’re like 3 hours long and usually musicals and usually about halfway it’ll feel like a totally different movie and you’re thinking “how did we get here?”

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard three or four more than me! :D

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard well, one day then... one day...

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

Heh, I was trying to learn Urdu/Hindi from those movies… it didn’t work but anyways

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard need three or four hundred movies to get a chance to learn a language, so pretty expected. ;)

We have a TV channel broadcasting bollywood movies with subtitles, but I just don't see any reason to watch them.

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

15:36

It’s weird, I grew up hearing Urdu spoken very often at home but I never picked it up…

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard who speaks Urdu? What countries?

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

Pakistan

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

I remember it as something very rare and exotic.

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard oh, so why would there be Urdu in Bollywood movies?

They're made in India, not Pakistan.

No?

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

Urdu is almost the same as Hindi, just with a different script and some slightly different words

Urdu script looks more like Arabic

I can even write my name with it!

Like this: علیزہ

Journeyman Geek

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard basically different dialects of the same base language with either Arab or Sanskrit influences

@SPArcheon ....

I think this is a remake

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

15:45

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard huh, didn't know that.

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

“Overpowered cop” has to be like a whole genre of Indian movies because I remember there were a lot in the 2000s/early 2010s lol

Or maybe I’m misremembering

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard yes!

Well, almost, but probably the mistake is on Google site. ;)

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

Yeah that’s the standard spelling lol, but I just had to have E

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

No "E" in Urdu?

SPArcheon

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard I think this specific one didn't went viral because it was "Bollywood". Seems more likely it is because it is very surreal to the point of reaching the memetic "it is so bad it is good" tier.

Journeyman Geek

15:47

@EleezatheOtherWorldWizard well o wasn't meaning the renegade protagonist cop

SPArcheon

Basically the impossible stuff he does is so much out of place that... it is very funny to watch.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@JourneymanGeek Sanskrit! That's the rare language I remembered. Need to read again about those languages again at some point.

SPArcheon

Probably same reason some people love that unknown movie called Jolly Roger.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SPArcheon and the Cocaine Bear?

Eleeza the Other World Wizard

@ShadowWizardChasingStars I guess the E sound uses the letters ی or ے or ع or something like that it depends on the word

SPArcheon

15:49

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SPArcheon 30's movie? Or just really badly pixelated?

SPArcheon

@ShadowWizardChasingStars poor picture. Movie should date 2001 I think.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

hmm

SPArcheon

Also... this is the summary of the plot, taken from TV Tropes.

> There's a Danish film called Jolly Roger (a.k.a. Framtids Jakten), which is about two Archangels accidentally losing the octopus of destiny (or, as it is more commonly referred to, "the Time Squid") and sending the Janitor of Heaven (who's an eastern European immigrant) down to hell to retrieve the greatest pirate ever to sail the seven seas so that he can, accompanied by his modern-day granddaughter, take the Squid back from a bunch of modern-day pirates who think that a good way to handle the Time Squid, the object without which the entire fabric of creation would simply unravel, is to …

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

heh there is movie with same name from 2005 as well. Sequel, or name stealing?

both have terrible reviews and less than 3/10 on all sites I saw, so probably sequel. :D

SPArcheon

15:53

simple coincidence, not related at all. Also, "Jolly Roger" is just the name of the pirate flag, so not something you could copyright.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SPArcheon huh! So maybe those watching the newer thought it's related to the awful first and automatically gave it 1.

That's one really bad name choosing for a movie. lol

SPArcheon

@ShadowWizardChasingStars I fear that the few souls who saw the first one may actually have loved the sheer insanity.

tripleee

flag-pls spam multiply returning spammer (MS) puzzling.stackexchange.com/a/119937

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@SPArcheon yeah, it's not rare to see movies with same name, they just add the year when displaying so people will know what they're going to watch.

@tripleee gone already. But what you mean by "multiply"?

Usually it's just the "returning".

hmm I see only one other past spam report for that user, which Glorfindel marked as not spam.

(but others did, so it's tp)

@JNat Sudoku cross site spammer, some puzzles for the backlog! :D

tripleee

yeah, this was their fifth spam, they seem to have been flying under the radar

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

16:01

@tripleee so why the MS list of posts per spammer doesn't list them? Bug?

tripleee

separate accounts with the same name and avatar

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

@tripleee well yeah, if they were able to fool Glorfindel, they can fool most people.

(by posting what appears to be legit stuff)

Well radar now got that spammer, no more flying underneath it. ;)

tripleee

actually looks like the same account on different sites, it's just that metasmoke doesn't connect them via the network account

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

hehe in the meanwhile, rollback war under the radar.

tripleee

I believe Makyen was vaguely working on that but there are some complications

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

16:05

@tripleee yeah, probably the API isn't great for network profile stuff.

@ShadowWizardChasingStars I guess not. Well, not very important.

If enough people will like the message they'll star and put it on top.

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

16:17

LOL that's a first:

Was it mistake to reply?

Kevin B

meh

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars

Hey no toilet icon? :(

Would fit here. :D

Based on the vulgar avatar was almost certain it's just some troll and was about to report (to JNat) but troll won't do such thing, or if doing it, would use much less pleasant language.

Kevin B

or just an elaborate troll getting you to first lower your barrier and then stab

Shadow Wizard Chasing Stars