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01:25
@RyanM hi
Hello
01:51
@RyanM Thanks for taking the time to look into that question I asked. I thought it was unusual for you to repeat so much of what I already wrote in the question, in your answer (including hyperlinks to the exact same pages), but I appreciate the time you put into it. I think what's happened, is that you understand the algorithm used to list the results.
````
IF  candidates >= enough THEN list all results,
ELSE IF candidates < enough THEN
   > IF candidate is new, THEN list them,
      ELSE do not list anything
The empirical evidence we have, suggests that this algorithm is being executed correctly by the computers. However, is it a good algorithm?
I think the algorithm can be improved in a number of ways to make things clearer, for example if there's no election then don't show anything (this would be consistent with what was already the case when appointments were made without an election). Or maybe even better, show all changes the way the Parenting.SE meta post shows.
02:50
@user1271772 Perhaps you're not realizing that pro-tem elections are a thing now - it used to be that pro-tem moderators were simply appointed by CMs, but they're now chosen in elections.
You seem to be missing the fact that two different types of elections occurred: one pro-tem election resulting in the appointment of one moderator, and one regular election resulting in the election of three moderators.
The former has one moderator listed in the results. The latter has three. This is expected.
It is not related to an algorithm based on the number of candidates. It is related to one election being retroactively changed into a pro-tem election (thus eliminating all but one candidate).
03:09
@RyanM You keep repeating the same thing over and over again as if I haven't already known that pro-tem elections have been "a thing" since 2018. We are talking past each other. Anyway, thanks (a fourth time) for the time you spent looking into this.
I really don't understand what's unclear, but I appreciate your effort to understand. Hopefully someone else is able to explain it better than me.
@RyanM I'm not looking for someone to "explain it better than" you. You have figured out the algorithm and I understand it. I just think it's not a good algorithm.
Fair enough. On that we disagree: I think it is appropriate and correct to not show candidates in the results who were neither elected nor appointed in that election.
03:38
That disagreement seems forced. There's nothing showing the first two appointees. Why? Because there was no election. But this time there was also no election (it was cancelled). So list new appointees only if an election started but got cancelled? Seems wrong.
Probably a reason why we're not seeing eye to eye on this, is because the announcement that they became pro tempore instead of full mods was put in an unusual place. Usually a new post is put up on Meta, announcing the results. This time that didn't happen. I checked what was going on, and saw only 1 user listed, when I was expecting 3 (because there was no obvious announcement that anything was cancelled .. only an answer to a much older post, which I didn't see until much later).
Again, the heading says "results", not "new appointees". You can continue saying that the meaning of "results" is crystal clear, but certainly it's not crystal clear to everyone, especially if they didn't know what happened (cancellation, etc.)
Rob
Rob
04:09
@user1271772 @RyanM, for good or bad when you post here in The Tavern someone shoulder surfs and chimes in (often without reading correctly what is being discussed). So, 🍴🍰:
I agree:
@user1271772 The results of the election were, in their entirety: C. Lange was appointed pro-tem moderator. The column reflects this accurately. — Ryan M 3 hours ago
(context, to make the lives of aspiring shoulder-surfers easier)
Rob
Rob
> " This election was cancelled yesterday. There weren’t enough candidates to proceed to the election phase.
The following moderators were appointed: C. Lange".
That's the result.
What's in the second banner is: "the result".
You can ask for a asterisk to be placed after the word, and a complete definition of what constitutes a "result".
[leaps off soapbox] scoots away
@user1271772 Perhaps your quibble is that the election is described as "cancelled" rather than "C. Lange won by default" (as the procedure describes it: "If there is at least one nominee but no more nominees than the number of slots, the nominee(s) will win the election by default at the end of the current nomination period (original or extended) and no more phases will take place.")
04:28
There's a few quibbles. The most recent being that I can't see what I type in chat when using firefox on mobile phone. Hipefully this message has no typos.
Rob
Rob
05:05
Almost a thousand times someone came to Meta with an idea or expectation, that was not met; so you're doing OK.
05:19
@user1271772 There was never a night or a problem that could defeat sunrise or hipe.
 
1 hour later…
06:23
@M.A.R. hippo
@Rob hey don't you just scoot.
(Not without a proper Scooter, at least.)
 
1 hour later…
Rob
Rob
07:37
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Scooting (no link) is frequently done without a scooter (link provided).
07:52
Why no link for Scooting?
27
Q: How can I stop my dogs from scooting / dragging their butts?

TarynI currently have 3 dogs and all of them will periodically scoot their butts, slam their butts hard on the ground, and drag themselves. When it happens, I know their anal glands are bothering them and they're trying to relieve the pain and itchiness which comes with an irritated gland. We have tr...

:D
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Well that was an ...enlightening... read.
@RyanM my pleasure! ;)
> 20. Kick the dog out of the room.
08:40
A note for chat moderators: the team removed the most-ignored users tab, since fixing it would require refactoring the entire ignoring infrastructure. (cc @Mithical)
2
Ah well. It's not the most useful of pages, anyway.
09:38
@Mithical could be useful if the mod could see who exactly user is ignoring.... ;)
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 We can.
@Mithical oh. Oops. unignoring all modz
09:54
@Ollie ...
10:35
@Mithical tinfoil hat: Mithical is a sock. They are talking like they still were a mod.
9
Q: Picking up my diamond once again

MithicalIn October 2019, I stepped down as a moderator on this site. At the time, the environment in the network and especially in moderator spaces was extremely toxic; I stepped down because I no longer felt safe in the role of moderator. In the year and a half plus since then, there have been many step...

10:49
stroopwafels
 
2 hours later…
Rob
Rob
13:06
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 It would be useful if the user being ignored were reminded frequently, 10x as often as they forget, and the reason for that action. At least we can be fairly certain that the function works on the CM's panel, the Dev's scripts at the very least.
nah the ignored can't know they're being ignored
Rob
Rob
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 This is why:
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 They often figure it out easily enough... But I think the ignore feature is one of the most underused chat features anyways.
Rob
Rob
We don't want to see that in the house.
Mod can seen downvote by users who don't have enough rep to downvote but get thanks message and vote are recorded .
13:20
Yes, moderators can see anonymous feedback, just like 10k? users I believe.
Thanks. I wonder how many down vote they see. Each and every down vote gives thanks message . There is no validation message like you already down vote / upvote some thing.............
@Mithical I'll start a revolution. That is not a diamond shape. That is a lozenge.
Diamonds are used to make pickaxes. Mods need an actual heraldic emblem
@Shree I don't know that... if it's not on MSE yet you might need to ask a question about that.
@Tinkeringbell Before conformation I hesitate to post, some time meta back fire and I don't like that :).
@Rob cute!
@Tinkeringbell yeah it's well hidden.
13:31
21
Q: Allow access to anonymous feedback stats without 10k rep

FrankRight now you need the Access To Moderator Tools privilege (awarded at 10k on a regular site, 2k on public beta, 1k on private beta) to access anonymous feedback on that site. I don't see why that is, and I often want to view this info on sites where I don't have the privilege. So I have to use S...

This tree..... Frank??
@Shree it's an aggregated table and only shows posts based on some system-defined criteria: underrated (uv > dv), overrated (dv > uv), most helpful (most uv), least helpful (most dv)
I kinda either forgot or didn't know that page exists :D
@MetaAndrewT. thanks. that''s dont address about message
@Shree I don't think there's validation, like here's the least helpful on Android.SE
13:36
Why under rep get thanks message every time.
@Shree positive reinforcement
"Good Dog..."
So when they hit the reputation to vote, they keep voting
@JourneymanGeek expecting a bone
@MetaAndrewT. The question is... if I vote for the same thing 3 times on SO, and I get the 'thanks' message every time (instead of 'you already voted for this')... Does that count increase by 3 or just 1? :P
@JourneymanGeek Thats create some meta post or it's all about positive vibe and ignore ?
@Tinkeringbell if only someone wants to science that...
13:42
Miss leading message , don't you think so ?
@Shree Positive vibe mostly
Ok going to post on meta and ready to fire back.
14:05
@JourneymanGeek Posted on meta feel free to edit, I am not well to express my self. / cc @ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Sorry to drag you on this @MetaAndrewT.
14:17
@Tinkeringbell if you're ignored, you can't start a chat with the user (mods excluded probably)
Rob
Rob
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Gets a scooter instead.
@KevinB I don't know. As a mod, I've never needed to try.
(As a mod, you also don't generally ignore users that are annoying enough to deserve it, because you need to watch the problem instead XD)
oh, i meant the other way
like, if i'm ignoring you, you'd not be able to see the start a chat option in the popup
I heavily use the ignore feature, but more often than not i "show posts" for those users any time there's any discussion happening
@Shree all good, I've rewritten it, there were some non relevant parts like mods being able to see the overall votes count.
@Rob too big
And unchewable.
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Said the actress to the bishop....
14:27
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Thanks for edit.
@JourneymanGeek that's what Shadow said!
:P
@Shree :)
@Shree Shadow left me nothing to do :D
looking the other way
I have no reason to believe we don't count those "votes" more than once.
It's anonymous and low-rep... so we can't tie anon votes to a specific profile, so someone could just visit the site 8 times and "vote" 8 times.
But it doesn't really matter because we don't really use those votes anywhere.
Why allow them at all
14:31
Why not? It's interesting data to collect.
I like looking at the "votes" on questions to see if there's a big difference between the registered people and the unregistered people.
@Catija I would guess that clicking multiple times won't revote, at least I assumed that it worked that way. But anonymous votes are inherently not trustworthy, and there is no way from preventing people from multiple times in the end
I'm assuming that it relies on at least a page refresh, yes.
Hmm, now I see why there's so much anonymous downvote than upvote: association bonus...
Yeah.
I mean, for questions, here on MSE, anyone with the association bonus can downvote ... they can downvote one answer, too... or maybe two, since the privilege is 100 instead of 125.
The first time i'm reminded my votes dont do anything, i don't vote anymore there
so, you have plenty of evidence that the 125 rep threshold it hindering curation, but nothings been done about it in 11 years?
14:39
@Catija and I would assume [citation needed] that most users here have some SE experience.
53 messages moved to Chimney
@KevinB "bad" curation is worse than people needing to wait to get some minimal amount of rep IMO
downvoting not useful posts isn't bad curation
Assuming you're able to tell a post is not useful
...
there's only one person in the world who can determine whether or not a post is useful to said person
14:41
"Oh, I don't like this user's ava, I'll downvote it"
"Oh, I lost my keys..."
@MetaAndrewT. well, "interestingly", one of the most asked/duplicated questions on Android.SE got almost 8000 anonymous downvotes
@JourneymanGeek thanks for review.
Rob
Rob
15:06
@ShadowWizardWearingMaskV2 Not true!
15:51
16:39
Ryan Donovan on August 25, 2021
Here’s three areas where data visualization can make your engineering life easier.
 
1 hour later…
17:39
goes? went?
will go? may go?
See where your spelling go wrong
processes? if go is the language, :p
18:01
OK. So I feel like I made a boo boo in meta.stackexchange.com/q/368870/497683 - at the time of posting I meant for it to be lightweight and somewhat humorous in tone, but reading it now it does just look messy. In part the entire Conspiracy theory part does not come across as intended heh. But, as I see it, it is not much I can do about it at this stage. Just leave it?
It feels like a to late, let it be, thing.
i thought it was unfortunate that the post that was chosen to be the poster child for that problem was one that was titled "SE is a dating site"
it expressly isn't a social networking site and spent a large part of a decade fighting against being one
@KevinB Yes. At the time of posting it was part of the make it light thought.
I think it's fine. I liked the title.
Cue "bring your sense of humor" from the old Be Nice. A bit of humor is a good thing.
You're free to edit your question as you see fit so long as you don't change the initial meaning of the post and don't invalidate any answers by doing so. Though large, swathing changes are in general probably discouraged.
So, if you wanna clean up that "Conspiracy theory" bit, then do so! It's not central to your point, just supportive (and also, imo, not a conspiracy theory)
Rob
Rob
It suggests that the data visualization is real-time, "process" is singular, with "go" being present tense: grammarly.com/blog/… - tunnel vision on a single point.
18:07
IMO, simply making it a privilege awarded at a moderate rep level would eliminate the majority of cases where one could claim their employer (or anyone really) is using the data maliciously.
how many hr dept employees have 10k rep on SO
hmm... is it intended that the "this user is suspended" message is no longer on the profile page?
err, wait, i might be assuming this user is suspended incorrectly
I'm looking at a network-wide suspended user that's got the message displaying properly.
yea
my mistake
Were they released from the cage early?
no, i assume first offence kind of thing, or coincidence/not enough proof
or not yet investigated
Rob
Rob
18:13
It also cuts out everyone else who has less than 10K (possibly a few years work) from determining the information; SO already has an "ignore one rep questions" problem, no need to make it so that only accounts that are recognized as being active, accepting, and appreciative get answers and comments.
not sure i'm following
it would leave it inconvenient for those curating content to still not be able to access the information, if they're sub 10k,
as far as people using it to decide whether or not to comment/answer? that's abuse of the info imo
if the question is unclear, vote to close it as unclear. you shouldn't need to determine whether or not the user might be active atm
right
there's a lot of people that are super apprehensive at taking action that can be deemed "negative" or "unwelcoming"
Rob
Rob
18:20
That's what those upvoters use the information for.
so they'll use whatever they can to delay needing to.
not necessarily
i upvoted both for supporting the feature returning
don't really care what justification makes it happen
Rob
Rob
I support a new feedback (answer) there saying: "I just want it back without having to offer a reason".
@Rob just because people use that information doesn't mean this is a use case that should be supported or encouraged.
Rob
Rob
So, write a post requesting the hiding of anything that would provide information about a user; then you need not concern yourself that the information was used in a manner contrary to your wishes.
Randomize the text of the posts too, so artificial intelligence couldn't build a psychological profile of the poster. Hide the date and time, ...
The hyperbole is not helpful here
18:33
tbh. I also do not care about the rationale behind why - only that there is a lot of various reasons, and I try not to judge as long as it is not spying. That said I also think protecting against tracking is important. I also see the point of enabling bad patterns trough enabling, - but in a compromise like way lower granularity I think it a lot of it would be eliminated anyway. A problem with the issue is that there are so many special cases that are hard to generalize.
Removing it is futile
Rob
Rob
^^ Neither is rearguing last week's discussion.
I'm fatigued as of late as well - so that does not help when trying to rationalize heh.
why did my topbar just get sticky
sigh
lol
18:36
@Mithical I'm seeing that as well
I read “rearguing” as “regurgitating” - sigh
same difference
@Mithical wait, was it not before?
Because of sticky
it's controlled with a user setting
that is now being ignored, likely by mistake
hopefully by mistake
18:37
...I no longer see the setting to change it.
well, if that is intentional I'll get the pitchforks
yet another userscript to the pile..
sticky nav increases the amount of time SO Products are displayed on the page, therefore forcing sticky increases engagement with paid products
I have dark-mode enabled on various sites using a very simple filter CSS. (Only) issue is the breaking of positioning.
termbin.com/5ocd , makes for some quirky pictures and colors in various places - but works for my use :P
Anyone want to setup the pitchfork emporium?
@Spevacus wha?
18:44
Biggest issue is when someone past a transparent picture with black text (pixels) - they do not render well.
Woohoo
Speedy.
Doesn't appear to have broken any of my blocks
@Ollie I mean... MSE posts are kinda formulaic...
18:46
Bring out your pitchforks, torches, tomatoes, and various throwables...
Tomatoes count as throwables; they are much worse than anything else. Especially if they're rotten.
Does unshielded magnetron count?
sure
Nice. So my home made drone warning system made form old micro waves is good going.
18:50
@Ollie sigh
Cue the scripts.
the sticky header was introduced at a point in time where the new navbar was being designed to best funnel users to paid products. Sticky header means when a user visits the page from google directly to an answer, they can't possibly miss the "New!" badge at the top introducing them to Jobs.
or, today, teams, ;)
They just moved those over to the left nav :P
I hope the ability to make that invis. won't go away.
is it sticky? i wouldn't know, hid it and adblocked the button
19:01
I don't see anything wrong having a sticky topbar, but I think removing the option to disable that is unnecessary and a good way to annoy people
I left it sticky because my screen allows the space. I also leave the left nav visible as I kind of enjoy it. Removing the ability to change that up just... feels bad, though.
This is now my entire screen.
@Spevacus How did you make that video?
@user1271772 I use a program called ShareX. It allows me to quickly make .gifs out of a captured region and automatically upload them to imgur. Then I just uploaded it to this chat with the upload button.
Highly recommend the program. It's pretty awesome.
19:07
Very cool! Unfortunately it's a Windows software and I'm on Ubuntu!
Oof, sorry!
@user1271772 try peek
But in my case also in apt
darn. These scroll gifs are annoying lol.
Unless you are on Wayland of course, in which case I doubt it is usable.
X11 ftw :D
@M.A.R. I'm sure Bernard Williams hiped that was the case!
@user3342816 Working on it...
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
E: Unable to locate package peek
19:23
Perhaps because I'm on 18.04 and X. apt-cache show peek , dpkg -l peek - but, as said, if on Wayland perhaps moot.
It's a really nice piece of software.
That is the GUI. Simply resize and / or move to desired spot and record.
Looks excellent!
Rob
Rob
@user1271772 Use ShareNix instead: github.com/Francesco149/sharenix
One could do trac.ffmpeg.org/wiki/Capture/Desktop but then you have to a bit more geeky in regards to selection of area.
@Luuklag I can barely read the text on your screenshot...
19:35
@Mithical yeah zoom in a bit ;)
@Rob That's geared towards sharing sites? I use gnome-screenshot (on KDE none the less) as it has proven to be good (and I came from GNOME).
For me the problem is just so much unused space, that is white. All that energy wasted for nothing
I'm always up for good alternatives. The way I use it is PrintScr => Save entire desktop and save as picture, Shift+PrintScr => Get selection tool on mouse, save as area, Ctrl+PrintScr => Save desktop + copy to clipboard, Ctrl+Shift+PrintScr => Get selection, save as file + copy to clipboard. Alt+PrintScr => Window to saved file, Alt+Ctrl+PrintScr => Window saved as file + picture copied to clipboard.
@user3342816 I got IT to install Lightshot for me. I know there is a windows and a Mac version. Perhaps there are others as well
Yeah there is an ubuntu version as well
@Mithical which screenshot? I just see o/
I already got peek though! I had to follow the instructions on GitHub to install it.
@Rob ^
with the bar sticky, i expect the logo on the bar to be the logo for the site i'm on, and take me to the home page
that isn't the case on mse
@KevinB yeah, but that is just MSE specific
yup
i wonder what the stats are for people actually using that top icon
@Luuklag Nice. Have to test it out. The "Powerful editors" is the biggest pt from what I have (though it would be simple enough to incorporate in my script as well). IIRC I found that best for met is silent save as it's only 1 in 50 times I actually edit the picture.
19:51
seems entirely useless to me, but i also see the general SE network site it links to as useless.
hmmm how strange, it turns out my mouse has a button on the side, that is programmed to the back button of my browser :/
i like those
but often forget they exist
and.. my work mouse doesn't have them
20:11
Argh... F'ing Excel
My work mouse has it in the worst possible position.
@RyanM oh boy
I have bumped it so many times by accident.
I just found out about it today, that my mac mouse has this button. Never knew it was there, whilst it is exactly where my thumb always sits
Whilst I have my mouse and keyboard hooked up to my windows PC. I don't think the button does anything on my mac
I'm prettttty sure Macs support back buttons
[insert joke about no back button on iOS here]
20:15
it does however have swipe left, which can often be too sensitive
Yeah it also has these crazy alternate desktops and stuff.
do you mean swipe right? (for iOS)
All stuffs I never use
Anyways, my Excel file stopped saving out of the blue, so trying to get that fixed :/
(I am not an iOS user, I used it for a couple months a few years ago)
I've got a horizontal scrollwheel on my mouse at work. I'm surprised how often I use it.
20:18
@Spevacus yeah same here, its really helpfull
When I first bought the mouse I was like "Pff, never gonna use that."
I use it pretty much every day now.
Yeah, really usefull in large spreadsheets for example
Tip: if you don't have a horizontal scroll wheel, you can hold Shift and use the normal scroll wheel instead.
2
@RyanM Get the hell out of here, magic man. I had no idea! It doesn't seem to work on Visual Studio, though, but hey, that's neat!
20:25
luckily I had a backup of that stupid Excel file. Phew
Anyone know Teresa Dietrich's SO email address?
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I guess they all follow the same format
Some of them are non-standard formats, though
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog [email protected]
7 messages moved to Trashcan
let's not encourage stalking
@Mithical yeah, you're right. But just can't wrap my head around the fact that people post that online. Especially if your reasonably high profile like Theresa
ehhhh it's often easy enough to convert a real name into an address unless you go well out of your way to hide your address (which is quite difficult)
Some people decide it's just not worth it. I recently warned someone (via private message) about accidentally exposing their home address via a postal barcode and their response was that "Realistically speaking it is not very hard for someone to find my address, so I figure if someone was going to go to that trouble they could do it other ways too"
20:46
@RyanM hmmm yeah. I doubt many people will find my adress. Although it is probably already leaked in some webshop hack
@Luuklag You have the advantage that any page with your address is probably in Dutch, which reduces the population that would have a straightforward time searching for it ;-)
The difference is only one S for adres ;)
Is the community-a-thon still ongoing btw?
21:03
@Luuklag Is this supposed to be a screenshot? See Mithical's reply to it.
@user1271772 a message without the little arrow isn't a reply, just a mention. Chat just auto-highlights the last message from a mentioned user.
@user1271772 I believe Mithical is referring to the screenshot in this comment
@RyanM So what's the screenshot then?
Thanks. I was unable to figure that out. How did you?
magic Opened up Luuklag's profile and looked for recent activity
I see!
I was looking in Tavern. Had not considered to look at the "main site" activity.
Glad that is sorted :)
21:15
Whoooooo I finally hit 10k :-)
@RyanM Congratz!
now you have access to the useless tools :)
But I can now see deleted posts, so that's interesting.
@RyanM yeah, most is spam anyways, so don't get you hopes up ;)
@RyanM Congrats!
21:31
@Mithical, not cool... i.sstatic.net/83Qyo.png
jk xD
 
2 hours later…
Rob
Rob
23:33
@user3342816 As you recall, @user1271772 asked @Spe: "How did you make that video?", to which the reply was "ShareX" - and the link I offered says: "ShareNix is a ShareX clone for Linux and FreeBSD." - what are you asking?

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