Tavern on the Meta

2:10 AM

hmm

What's the right way to do this...

@ArtOfCode If one of you, or one of the other SD folks can confirm this meta.stackexchange.com/questions/348030/… I'll happily throw a review status on it

Journeyman Geek

2:25 AM

never mind, there's confirmation from a seconf user. I'll throw review on it

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

4:43 AM

@JourneymanGeek Make that a third.

Journeyman Geek

5:37 AM

@SonictheStay-HomeHedgehog There's a vaguely specific reason I pinged Art :D

This is waaaay over my head and he'd have a better idea what's happening

and I suspect its related to another thing

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

The issues I was experiencing were also way over my head and why I didn't file a bug, but the question as written seems to fit them perfectly.

rene

6:00 AM

@JourneymanGeek did you deliberate left that "rant" undeleted? Do you mind if I delete vote it or do I risk to take action against the mods intended status-quo?

Journeyman Geek

@rene I'm not really of the opinion its fair for me to hammer it, looking at the answer

but its fine for a user deletion I guess

rene

I think Makoto can live with the rep loss and that answer isn't really awesome, nor is the question.

always gets their name wrong

Journeyman Geek

:D

So vote as you see fit, not fearing retibution, or warm presents in your shoes :D

rene

LOL

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

6:48 AM

@JourneymanGeek Wonder why you cleared my delete vote on it

Journeyman Geek

cause I deleted it. reviewed and decided otherwise.

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

But, since you say it's OK, I'll revote (which is allowed).

Journeyman Geek

As above.

Mithical

8:31 AM

I just looked at the ones that are outstanding and in our bucket and, well... a lot of them are appropriate for CMs as the decision makers but we're hampered because the tooling requires code changes that we can't make. We're working on getting better access to some of this stuff so that we can make site setting changes and text changes that require building the site but we haven't had that since we lost Jon and Shog. Being able to make these small changes - like updating the text in the new question asking form - are great opportunities to help make small improvements to the network sites. — Catija ♦ yesterday

Tinkeringbell

@Mithical Heh. There was a line about 'does not need a dev' in the guidelines for status-review tags :|

Journeyman Geek

:D

@Tinkeringbell Kinda ironically....

a lot of the CMs we lost had dev access/experience and might have made this more efficient :D

cough

And just cause you can decide something is done, dosen't mean its done.

Mithical

There is a definite advantage to having CMs who a.) have access and b.) know how to make minor changes to a codebase or whatever if a community needs it.

I was more calling attention to that it sounds like the CMs still don't have what they need to be able to do their jobs - leaving aside the short-staffedness at the moment.

Tinkeringbell

Oh. Yeah...

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical oh, also .. SE kinda took it for granted people would hack in stuff as needed with little concern to usability :D

cough some of the mod tools :D

@Mithical I don't think they have for years :/

V2Blast

8:48 AM

@Mithical Yeah :(

rene

We just have to learn catija new tricks ...

Journeyman Geek

@rene More CMs! :D

Mithical

@JourneymanGeek There are pros and cons to that... it's definitely more of a short-term solution to do it that way; that's one of the reasons SE has had to deal with so much technical debt. I can see wanting to do things more in ways that are more... sustainable, I guess.

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical that's true

Mithical

The problem is that right now we're kinda in the middle of a transition period.

Journeyman Geek

8:50 AM

but that's also why the CMs need assistance

@Mithical I'd use some... non SE friendly terms

they're in the middle of a few cluster...

they gutted the community team shortly before a push/change in direction that could have used it, Covid makes rebuilding it hard

The only good thing is when they get back on their feet, they might actually be able to hire people in the community

Mithical

...if anyone's willing to take the job, after what happened to Shog and Robert...

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical Well - the timing was a bit suspecious .

And depends on the contract tbh

Mithical

Firing Shog and Robert was one of the worst decisions they've ever made, if not the worst.

Journeyman Geek

indeed

and baffling

Mithical

It's going to have repercussions for a few years yet, I think.

Journeyman Geek

8:56 AM

@Mithical Hiring from outside is a possibility - Cesar's ok.

or making sure that there's protections in the contract, guarenteed severance sounds mighty fine...

rene

@JourneymanGeek that might sound attractive but doesn't that also signals for this specific case that you don't think the CMs are capable of learning a few new skills? There are plenty of people that can and will help the CMs when asked.

Journeyman Geek

@rene more that they'd need time to actually pick up those skills + they're generally understaffed

and it seems unfair to go "there's less of you, do more"

rene

While I really hope the understaffing will be fixed I don't expect that to happen soon. Let's not simply watch the CMs struggle when we can help with a bit of our brainpower and skills.

Journeyman Geek

@rene oh where possible

but also point out that they need these resources to do what they need to.

rene

True

Journeyman Geek

9:02 AM

Even in "soft" things - stuff like the mod council's supposed to help with that

Even when the CMs have the pulse of a lot of the community - sometimes its useful to have non company voices

and well

we can't see SE code - so those things need to be supported appropriately internally

All we can do is point out things that can use some duck tape or polish ;)

John Dvorak

islam 🤷‍♂

Journeyman Geek

Uh?

Mithical

@JourneymanGeek Forget the code, I'm still having trouble figuring out the company structure and all the different teams and groups there are

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical oh that

uhhhhhhhhhhhh

CM team uhhh...

Practically - its the CMs. I don't think Tim's included, and I'm unclear over Juan

So Cat, Cesar, Jnat and Nicolas.

.... I see what you mean :D

Then Grace Note and Animuson are a different team but they sometimes handle CMish stuff...

yup. Clear as mud even to me ;)

Mithical

They're like the support team I think?

they handle tickets and things

Journeyman Geek

9:15 AM

I THINK they're called the community support team

But that's a little different from say bluefoot or Adam, who're not CMish at all now, but have CM experience

Mithical

9:38 AM

...

→ 11 messages moved to Chimney

Right after I cleaned. You have no respect, Smokey.

Tinkeringbell

@Mithical Smokey has now been identified as being male ;)

rene

WUT?

@Mithical at least the websocket works then ....

SmokeDetector

:)

4

Tinkeringbell

Ooooh! A happy smokey, haven't seen that in a while ;)

ArtOfCode

10:42 AM

@JourneymanGeek yup, Makyen is one of our admins

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell ._.

Or a cat

Magisch

smokey is whatever smokey is at the moment

Journeyman Geek

shakes a paw at the silicicious flagger

Magisch

I saw your video on twitter btw

s' cute

Journeyman Geek

^^

I was too lazy to youtube it, and with pets chat quiet, most of the folks are on twitter :D

Magisch

10:48 AM

pets are just a source of joy sometimes

Journeyman Geek

He went for a long walk at 5am yesterdat, and is currently cursing his old bones

also dad saw a snake and Ash decided he absolute NEEDS to pee there to show the snake who is boss...

which is a little stressful

Magisch

our office dog has went ballistic when seeing a couple of people he didnt for some weeks

Journeyman Geek

aww :D

Magisch

as in full on excitement collison mode

Journeyman Geek

Oh I have seen that with Ash :D

Mithical

10:50 AM

@Magisch zoomies?

Journeyman Geek

@Mithical eventually

Magisch

yeah

Journeyman Geek

the cutest one is the "wait... what?" then a doubletake, then zoomies

Magisch

every monday when I come in you can hear the faint sound of paws on linoleum. It's really cool

he greets like 10-15 people invidiually

Journeyman Geek

XD

Ash used to do that as an office dog.

Magisch

10:52 AM

Makes the partial furlough even more annoying, I dont get to see him that often

Journeyman Geek

Yeah :/

Magisch

although I may house and dogsit in august for the owner which will be awesome

Journeyman Geek

XD. It probably will be

Shadow Keeps Social Distance

11:43 AM

Back at work!!1!!

Tinkeringbell

As in at an office?

John Dvorak

Shadow means they used a briefcase as a makeshift chair.

Journeyman Geek

s/briefcase/box

Shadow Keeps Social Distance

12:12 PM

@JohnDvorak nah

@Tinkeringbell yup

:]

Tinkeringbell

Be careful!

Shadow Keeps Social Distance

I keep distance... ;)

John Dvorak

Covid-19: If you ever wondered what would make the middle finger more acceptable than a hug - this is it.

Tinkeringbell

Heh.

Shadow Keeps Social Distance

@JohnDvorak just careful not to touch face with that finger.... :D

Rob

2:37 PM

@ShadowKeepsSocialDistance One must master new skills to accommodate the needs of others.

rene

3:55 PM

@Glorfindel didn't you have an MSE SEDE post that had some trickery to make SEDE re-run a query despite it being in the cache? I can't find it among your 100 or so answers.

Magisch

can't you just add WHERE 1=1 to the end?

rene

@Magisch how would that evict the queryresult?

Magisch

changed query = new result?

rene

without an edit I mean

Rob

4:40 PM

@rene is this it; both the edit on another answer, and his own answer?

rene

yeah, that is the one. Not sure why I didn't spot that one

Glorfindel

6:21 PM

@Rob thanks. I forgot about it myself o_O

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

6:46 PM

@JourneymanGeek Juan is indeed a CM. Tim is not technically, but they often act in a CM-like way.

@Catija How does escalation work, for a question that has already been tagged status-review prior to the original announcement of the new procedure?

Kulfy

Sorry to interrupt. Quick question: Suppose a post with one or two upvotes is deleted as spam. But due to some reasons it was undeleted (may be couple of days later). Will the user get back the reputation after the undeletion just like other posts?

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

@Kulfy No, not normally, unless the spam flags are cleared by a moderator.

Kulfy

And how can I, as a normal user, see that?

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

> Reputation lost as a penalty for having a post deleted by spam or "rude or abusive" flagging is not returned, unless a moderator manually clears the spam or abuse flags. This only happens if the post was deleted in error (a moderator pressed the wrong button, or multiple users conspired to have it deleted).

(deletion FAQ)

@Kulfy Clearing the spam flags also removes the implicit downvotes

Kulfy

As of now an answer which was deleted as spam has 6 upvotes and no downvotes. It was from a new user. When it was deleted it had 1 upvote.So, can i assume the post doesn't have any implicit downvotes?

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

6:56 PM

@Kulfy It does not.

Kulfy

So they should have got +10 back for the initial upvote?

I'm asking just out of curiosity.

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

Yep.

Kulfy

Unfortunately they didn't. Should I ask on MSE?

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

@Kulfy On the per-site meta. Moderators can tell the full story of what happened and can see the full reputation history.

Kulfy

OK. I'll ping the site mod.

Thanks by the way. :)

πάντα ῥεῖ

7:01 PM

^^ Ask at the specific site's meta, that's better than piging a particular size mod.

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

@πάνταῥεῖ Smaller site mods are usually okay with pings of the sort. There was one case where someone posted a reopen request on a small site's meta and a mod told them they should have brought it up in chat instead.

Catija

7:52 PM

@rene ha ha. You seem to have had fun listening to Shog talk.

rene

I sure did ;)

Shadow Keeps Social Distance

8:11 PM

@πάνταῥεῖ what size?

rene

medium. That keeps other options open.

πάντα ῥεῖ

8:29 PM

@ShadowKeepsSocialDistance Typo. I meant site of course.

rene

We size every opportunity to point out your typos...

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

10:37 PM

@ArtOfCode Given the rather long-winded comment conversation on this question, I feel that the whole situation could have been resolved if the suspension message indicated that the account was automatically suspended, rather than just saying it was suspended "for rule violations". What would you think of such a feature request?

ArtOfCode

@SonictheStay-HomeHedgehog Streisand

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

I was about to write such a request, but decided not to file it because I thought it would be easy for users to suss out what causes a ban or not, but then I realized that Wikipedia makes its autoblocks clear to users

@ArtOfCode What do you mean?

ArtOfCode

there's a reason suspension reasons are so vague

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

Oh, yeah, that's a big difference from Wikipedia, where all community moderation is public

ArtOfCode

we're trying not to encourage excessive dramatising and finger pointing; I suspect a message saying "lol this dumbass tried to re-create the account to get round the system"... might not help? :)

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

10:41 PM

There's this case:

16

A: Is it possible to dispute penalty box or at least to know the reason for being penalized?

I looked into this and discovered your previous account was deleted in a way that would automatically suspend any new accounts you create. Usually this method is reserved for mindless spammers and trolls. Since that did not seem to be the case, I've unsuspended your account. I can also restore po...

ArtOfCode

sure, if someone's come to meta and started asking about it and given permission for details, fair game

but slapping a message on any account that does it is a good way to get folks pointing and laughing

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

Typical MO of such users: 1. suddenly find that their account is gone; 2. try to create it again, thinking that some odd server thing happened; 3. find that their new account is suddenly suspended "for rule violations", with no explanation of what rule was violated; 4. ask on Meta about the suspension, where users will ask about the moderator message they received; 5. attempt to explain that there was no moderator message, only for that argument to fall on deaf ears; ...

6. eventually, someone with system knowledge comes along and explains that it may be an automatic suspension

@ArtOfCode I guess you could make it more discreet. For example, instead of saying "temporarily suspended for rule violations", it could say just "temporarily suspended". The lack of a reason would be the implicit signal to the community that it was an automatic 14-day suspension as a result of account deletion.

We don't want to publicly assert that the user violated a rule, without telling them what the violation was.

Catija

@SonictheStay-HomeHedgehog I mean... wouldn’t it be better to just send a mod message upon recreation of the account. This both informs the user, gives them a chance to respond and lets mods know the account was recreated.

And... it’s totally private.

Sonic the Stay-Home Hedgehog

10:59 PM

Removing the suspension reason field from automatic 14-day suspensions would disclose even less information, and not publicly assert that the user committed a rule violation if the deletion turns out to be accidental. That said, sending such a message would be a good idea, even for the case where a user recreates a manually-suspended account, as it provides a reference point for the automatic suspension reinstation.

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