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4:00 PM
I understand your concern. You have a positive question history. Even not on meta, that'd prevent this from impacting your ability to post.
Does a single moderator-deleted question on meta with zero votes count against you? Technically, yes. But only to a negligible degree. It's like counting the electrons when taking the atomic weight of an atom.
@SonicWizard okay thanks for that!
While this meme may answer the question, it is better to include the essential parts of a substantial and correct answer here and provide the meme for humor. Meme-only answers are fun but do not really explain what is going on or what happened. — Robert Columbia 5 mins ago
Hey @balpha Bhargav is telling me that something weird is going on in chat on SO... user accounts are getting mixed up and messages are being posted from different accounts - he's joining rooms that he's not actually joining. chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/169865
4:11 PM
looks serious.
@quartata yeah, it is unclear what is breached, maybe a userscript we all use?
Does this apply here as well 1 2 3 4?
Or is that just a user who frequently signs up, instead of logging in?
@πάνταῥεῖ they signed up multiple times, not related I think
4:25 PM
Considering Generic Queen and Natty are all using the same chat library
I wonder if it's just a matter of how they use chat, y'know?
How does a normal user get into that chataccount then?
@rene What should I do? Notify the user or flagging for mod attention and let them do?
I don't know, none of the bots were posting as Ron
rather, people seem to be posting as the bots
@πάνταῥεῖ leave a comment for the user, ask if they realised what they did
I'll do that.
4:28 PM
they are unegistered accounts, might be that they load their cookie
@Catija last build was reverted, we're clearing all login sessions created since then
wuh, chat refresh
@balpha if Ron's testimony is to be trusted, he was logged in on SO as himself still
just.. not in chat
i mention that because I'm guessing you restarted everything:
in Charcoal HQ on The Stack Exchange Network Chat, 1 min ago, by SmokeDetector
Recovered from websocket._exceptions.WebSocketConnectionClosedException: Connection is already closed.
Hmm, Kenny died as well
@rene Well, who wants to live forever?
4:40 PM
Kenny is given another chance to live
after being killed so many times...
yeah, I'm happy path coder. Screw fault conditions
I can see that chat is buggy, people like Ferrybig "talked 334d ago" appear here all of a sudden...
I actually talked 334 days ago here, just joined to room to see a life transcript of whats unfolding with the chat, :)
\o Ferry... I was away and got a few pings, when random users where talking as queen :D
4:52 PM
\o Petter
@Ferrybig poor Ron in SOCVR suddenly became queen, natty posting duplicate response... lots of fun.
@PetterFriberg The only reason for this bug that I can think is of some misuse of ThreadLocal variables that gets messed up by the way how bots normally authenticate with chat, and maybe the user after or before the bot gets affected with the wrong local variables
@Ferrybig but Ron was / is a regular user
How does bot authenticate with chat?
@hey simulating what a user does in a browser
there is no proper chat api
like there is for Q/A
5:06 PM
@rene Maybe Princess Elise can resurrect it with the power of the Chaos Emeralds, which she did to me?
@rene "Oh my god, they killed Kenny! You bastards!"
5:19 PM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted user: How to talk to management about 'genius' code? by James on workplace.SE
@SmokeDetector fp-
5:51 PM
@rene I have noticed that user via comment
/OT You probably didn't notice that you are (probably inadvertently) create a new account if you choose the sign up instead of login. See 1 2 3 4. You probably also want to ask for moderator attention to merge all these accounts into a single one — πάντα ῥεῖ 53 mins ago
OK, nice. You're learning ;)
Though after thinking it over, I realized if that OP didn't stay logged in, and keeps with the sign up, this message might just vanish in vain :-/
What do you think? @rene
posting question on incognito mode?
at least most of the questions are having acceptable quality...
Q: Give askers a way to challenge a duplicate closure

Mad ScientistWhen I read about Stack Overflow or the Stack Exchange network in various other places on the internet, a lot of it are complaints about the moderation. There is one specific complaint I see a lot, and that is that questions are wrongly closed as duplicates. Getting their question closed as a d...

6:13 PM
@rene nooooooooooooooooooooooo...
@πάνταῥεῖ that might be true, yes.
@rene If I flag for mod attention they could also send a mail over the users eMail contact or escalate to the CMs. Flagging for mod attention might not only be used to point out misbehavior, but just problemz
6:33 PM
@ShadowWizard A user with a reputation of 800 (eight hundreds) is not a high reputation user. It is not even trusted enough to vote to close questions.
It's not even an established user, so he cannot even see up-votes and down-votes given to posts.
What makes me feel like being in context now? @Shadow
6:50 PM
sd fp
- Sorry
sd poof
Why do people redact then delete their answers?
Because they think that will hide it, but forget that the log still exists
makes me angry when a well known answerer does stuff like that, especially when they're known for FGITW answers
Jay Hanlon on April 26, 2018

Let’s start with the painful truth:

Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

Our employees and community have cared about this for a long time, but we’ve struggled to talk about it publicly or to sufficiently prioritize it in recent years. And results matter more than intentions.

Now, that’s not because most Stack Overflow contributors are hostile jerks. The majority of them are generous and kind. Sure, a few are…  just generous, I guess? But our active users regularly express thei …

7:06 PM
Oh jesus christ here we go again
@Feeds Hello Title Case Using Person
You Must be From Management.
There's Some Psychology Or Something In Upper-Casing Every Word In A Sentence In Titles
> Those of us who have privilege, but care deeply about reducing bias should be uniquely positioned to help, but we struggle the hardest to recognize that we are (unintentionally) biased ourselves.²
7:13 PM
...you're worrying me, @NickCraver.
> Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you.
Expanding my vocabularly with "feeler". And maybe "feelee"?
A feeler gauge is a tool used to measure gap widths. Feeler gauges are mostly used in engineering to measure the clearance between two parts. They consist of a number of small lengths of steel of different thicknesses with measurements marked on each piece. They are flexible enough that, even if they are all on the same hinge, several can be stacked together to gauge intermediate values. It is common to have two sets for imperial units (typically measured in thousandths of an inch) and metric (typically measured in hundredths of a millimetre) measurements. A similar device with wires of specific...
Useful things, feelers
Ants use them pretty well!
Go to the ant, thou sluggard. Consider it's ways and be wise.
7:17 PM
Wisdom is for old people D:
And ants, apparently
Joel started to hype that stuff themselves recently. Don't miss that plz
Easy to solve: have Community prepend "Hi everyone" to all existing questions, and append "Thank you in advance".
Throw in "please" at a random place in the title.
When someone posts "Thank you very much." in a comment, instead of making it 1 flag eligible, add "You are welcome." comment from answerer's account.
takes a shot
7:32 PM
Okay let's see what they had to say. Fingers crossed; Jay is usually pretty on the ball.
Yeah, lots of unpleasant exchanges, nothing new.
(1) idownvotedbecau.se links induce pile-on downvotes;
(2) We are not here to [snark snark snark] comments are rarely useful;
(3) [Stack Overflow|This] is not [snark snark snark] are not much better.
(4) Vaguely related duplicates (yay dupehammer).
All that the blog post contributes are oversized pictures of figurines.
7:39 PM
Yeah... I read that post... in the attempt to include they just excluded a lot of people
I don't downvote because I want to hurt someone's feelings, but because it's a duplicate and should get cleaned up. If there was another mechanism that did the same thing without stamping on people's dreams I'd use it.
We I'll never get this right.
Downvotes are not personal attacks. It's not my fault people consider it like I physically slapped them.
we're humans, there is literally no way to get it right because social cues and norms change from group to group
Maybe the mechanics need to be changed (to look more nicely). I dunno ...
That's what I'd suggest, downvotes do come off as being negative
7:42 PM
Pretty reasonable post. It's worth remembering that America is only 25% of Stack Overflow's traffic. "Women" is a demographic may potentially be as many as 50% of Stack Overflow's users in an ideal world, while "African Americans" may only be as much as 3%. It would be an odd focus; there are probably larger demographics that as excluded, if they weren't just sampling from their neighbours. But I guess that's part of why this posts exists: to solicit input from a wider spectrum of experience.
Unicorns farting and pukeing rainbows or such.
perhaps for questions the downvotes should be hidden for low rep users after it goes below zero
@πάνταῥεῖ OT: reminds me of a Linus Tech Tips RGB ALL THE THINGS video I watched earlier
Did linus mention these? Maintaining vanilla is a hard job it seems.
@Feeds so this all boils down to rude comments being deleted faster. And some vague research that's going to last long years.
Q: Hide downvotes past zero for low rep users

MgetzDownvotes aren't personal but they can come off as personal to lower rep users that aren't as used to the site and the mechanics of the site. By making it appear that there is a downvote floor of zero to users that aren't as familiar with the site it allows them to not feel like they are being tr...

there feature request posted
7:48 PM
This is on par with participation trophies for kids. Why pander to those who can't handle criticism without thinking that it's an attack?
@SterlingArcher because bad press?
We're teaching people that if you're offended, other people have to change to cater to you. I use this in a way that I understand that there are obvious cases where offense is horribly offensive and others do need to change
honestly it would mean completely reworking the entire voting system
@Mgetz What shadow said.
And downvotes are not the complimentary thing as Reddit or Quora "kudos." That seems to be one of the main misconceptions
Oh I know
I'm just making the suggestion because if we can't convince people to leave aside egos we can delay bruising them
I never said it was a good suggestion
I get the feeling we aren't going to see Markdown tables on Stack Exchange in 2018...
@SterlingArcher Because the goal isn't to be "right" in an abstract sense, it's to do whatever leads to the best content for the internet.
The level at which to argue is with that premise.
@Mgetz It doesn't seem the wary time for bad ones, or even half baked.
Sorry :-P
@bro there is a lot more you're not going to see on SE in 2018 ...
7:54 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ hey I think the downvotes on my suggestion are deserved
Sure they are, not to mention you posted that as an FR
@πάνταῥεῖ hmm? What?
It never hurts to make the suggestion, even if it's crap
@Mgetz it's not crap, just unpopular.
As in many people are going to disagree.
Today a building I see from my office is being demolished to make room for a nicer one. Coincidence?
7:55 PM
I love your suggestion, just disagree with it, hence my downvote.
@ShadowWizard I'm waiting to see if there are other thought provoking answers but I have you as top candidate at the moment
@ShadowWizard and I absolutely agree with your response.
undo's minirant of the day: Our system has problems. All the other systems appear to have bigger problems. You can't look at only the problems; gotta look at the whole picture.
@Mgetz I'll take that with me at my next meeting, thank you (seriously no sarcasm involved)
@Mgetz no problem, there are few other users I expect will answer, we'll see.
Honestly I would not apply the same thing to answers
only to posts
7:57 PM
@Mgetz you mean questions.. post means either a question or an answer.
@Undo oh, please do these minirant's every day ...
@kiamlaluno OK, maybe not high rep, but also not some newbie user or casual spamer. It's someone who has been around for a while, posted some good content, etc.
@Mgetz it's interesting, I actually have had an idea for sometime that voting should be hidden for the first hours, it both avoid all the gang voting (what ever people say there is alot of if others up vote / down vote) I do that as well + down voting does not encourage collaboration, hence OP editing... with all these darn face book etc people are not used to dislike... and get pushed away...
@Petter and @Ferry are here together.... wait, weren't you two in the Mentorship demo? :)
Petter for sure, Ferry, less sure about it...
Ferry I'm not sure, but me and Ferry go back to the old Campaign room with Drew :D
8:03 PM
Funny Jay mentions this in the blog post, it's totally dead by now.
@ShadowWizard I can't remember anything about a mentorship, so probably not
Ferry by now is a SD dev and I'm in SOBotics
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in body: OS X problems with Boot Camp Windows installation by junis087678 on superuser.com
@ShadowWizard "dead" as in the study concluded, the results are published.
As the paper said, it was never meant to be scaled up.
8:04 PM
@PetterFriberg you could do something like they have for the stock market where it limits how much can go in and how fast
a throttling effect in essence
I would just hide for the first hours... but yeah you would need to do a small experiment before deploying something like that
@uhoh nah, it's all good.
And I think I have better reason to get mad: i.sstatic.net/eDeFf.png
But... I'm not. :)
@ShadowWizard You wanted to remove Oxford comma... and Tim didn't even destroy your account, so you got away easily.
@ShadowWizard Did you see my mail? I'd appreciate to get your opinions
8:10 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ not yet... I don't read emails frequently. Will do... soon-ish.
@ShadowWizard That's why I nudged you ;-)
buh... so the hide downvotes is in review... if done, SO will be overflowed with crap and the active users will just give up at some point. People will just keep posting crap because they'll think this is good and on topic.
Great way to kill Stack Overflow.
The reply seems pretty clear that they're not planning to hide downvotes without an alternative feedback mechanism.
@ShadowWizard I'm sorry
@ShadowWizard People post crap because they need an answer, not because they think their question is good.
8:13 PM
@Mgetz hehe, no worry.. you're only the messenger. Surely those things will come from the management at some point, if not suggested first on meta sites. :)
Anyway, today is an anniversary of Chernobyl disaster... coincidence?
@bro and that's why it's still under control... but if this crap will be tolerated and welcome, each crap poster will post 10 more of these... you see my point?
@ShadowWizard at least this way the discussion will have happened in public
Still contaminated mushrooms growing in the woods here :-P @bro
@Mgetz indeed
8:16 PM
@ShadowWizard The proposal does not suggest eliminating question bans...
Just be nice and show "0" and then later "sorry, we no longer accept questions from this account".
@SterlingArcher no, in that analogy it's like maybe don't put Bobby Knight in the coaching job for your middle school team.
@bro it's obvious it will... or meta will be full with "How come I'm banned from asking when I don't have a single negative scored question???"
@ShadowWizard The learning curve to post a good question is to high on SO, no first user can do that, I don't think we will have much more crap for sure we will have more collaborative first users.
8:19 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ saw it now... will think about it for a bit before replying. :)
@ShadowWizard NP. I just wanted serious review :)
... probably worth reminding folks that down votes are more encouraging than nothing at all: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/216683/…
> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.
@Shog9 Confounding factor: comments. No downvotes => nobody saw the post => not even a comment with a suggestion of what to do.
Community moderation must be sparing me from seeing that abuse. Keep up the good work!
8:22 PM
@ShadowWizard we do warn people well in advance yknow
@canon honestly if you have a username of "susan" or "Amit" you will likely receive a more negative reaction unfortunately
@bro yes, yes, we need less comments too I know alright
ARRG I'm torn... Shadow and tim both have such good answers
We ever did everything "in advance". The german and EU law books state that, though we have to make inadvertent criminals aware after they became such :-D
@Mgetz I'm sorry... what kind of reaction? Abusive comments?
8:25 PM
@Mgetz but Shadow is a wizard, you don't want to upset those.
@canon in my experience people don't tend to spend as much time trying with those users, they tend to downvote, close vote, move on
is that bad?
I'd be curious to see if there's a correlation with actual question quality
and negative reaction
that happens to align with gender, race, nationality, etc
@canon uses their right not to self incriminate
@Shog9 Relevant read (regarding your recent concerns): spiegel.de/netzwelt/web/…
8:27 PM
@Mgetz not denying that folks with Asian names tend to get a lot of crap, but lumping their questions into one basket is a bit much.
@rene I'm afraid Tim's diamond is bigger than my spells though.... ;)
@πάνταῥεῖ there used to be a concept in US and British law that mattered more of means rea basically the intent to break the law versus doing it unintentionally
@Shog9 as is all generalizations
wtb developer survey data tied to user accounts
@Mgetz That's probably why I mentioned that. Do you think I am an idiot?
@πάνταῥεῖ no I just have a bad habit of stating the obvious when I didn't see it before
@canon wtb massive GDPR violation!
8:31 PM
@Mgetz at the very least, anonymized Q&A stats
55 mins ago, by πάντα ῥεῖ
user image
@πάνταῥεῖ sadly that doesn't translate well to text
All cool, seems I'm smoking better stuff this eve ...
@Mgetz so, maybe avoid that?
Good point @Shog9
8:35 PM
EVP of culture and experience
@Shog9 I try to, but it's somewhat inevitable they will happen, just like diarrhea.
is that a chief without a tribe? how many people in that department, I wonder
Is it that digital social interaction needs to evolve a completely different culture, regardless the localized concerns?
Tough thingy ...
Not to mention that SE denied any social interaction at any point of time.
@πάνταῥεῖ Thanks for pointing out to me that what I thought was a minor bug was actually a big problem:
A: Give askers a way to challenge a duplicate closure

Sonic WizardThis kind of already exists in the current UI, though it currently suffers from a bug. When looking at many duplicate questions, you see this notice: This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question. ...

@Mgetz this may be one of those cultural differences, but... When suffering from diarrhea, I tend to avoid... Suffering publicly, if you know what I mean.
8:39 PM
Also see:

Duplicate banner

Mar 2 at 23:45, 1 hour 21 minutes total – 25 messages, 3 users, 1 star

Bookmarked Mar 3 at 1:15 by Sonic Wizard

@Shog9 you don't always get a choice
@Shog9 I suggest fixing that bug right away
I too try to not suffer in public, but it happens occasionally
@SonicWizard Never more than my 2¢. You gotta keep a piggy back with me ;-)
mostly it was a bad metaphor as both are crapy
8:41 PM
@SonicWizard The one you pointed out in the chat conversation, and I pointed out in the linked answer.
@SonicWizard only if you create a diarrhea bookmark
...for the current conversation. So we can scrape it up later.
oh dear... I fear I've erred
what was intended to be a funny but bad metaphor has gone too far
@Shog9 No need; just comment on my linked answer above.
8:43 PM
I will when not on mobile
Currently at a tire shop waiting for them to remove a nail
Can you at least read my answer?
@Shog9 which finger, or is it a toe this time?
Also, by the way, have you heard of swipe keyboards?
And all the clonea
@Mgetz Well, it's easy to make yourself looking like an idiot in the public, and there's probably no easy way to get rid of it regarding what we've got with the interwebz nowadays. That probably needs to be addressed somehow.
8:45 PM
@Shog9 So, will you read my answer, please?
@Shog9 Supplied by a thankful SO user?
Some sort of "right to take your foot out of your mouth"
Get the EU on it asap!
leave that to us
@Mgetz still funny for me. :D
No way man, I have a right to forget my foot.
8:46 PM
@πάνταῥεῖ technically GDPR would give me recourse, but I'm in the US.
Or wait, my foot has rights
Now I don't even know anymore
and GDPR is a bit of a Nuke in that regards
Only one of them; the other has lefts.
@bro possible. More likely picked up at the salvage yard when picking out parts to fix the previous mishap
@Shog9 so can't you open your laptop in the shop while waiting and get some work done? ;)
8:48 PM
I need to strap some of those huge magnets to the front &back bumpers.
@ShadowWizard if I had brought it...
@Shog9 you don't bring your laptop to work? So what you have it for? :)
@Shog9 You watch Roadkill?
@Mgetz I'm not sure that the GDPR covers the issue at all. That's why I've thrown in Sascha Lobo's article. I dunno if there's an appropriate english version.
8:49 PM
@Mgetz nope
@πάνταῥεῖ GDPR includes the right to be forgotten, at least that's what my employers training said!
For you, @Shog ^
Ah, I miss Pentium 2s in these colder months...
Something to warm your lap... well, you can have cats.
@Shog9 I remember Northwoods... those were fun before Intel introduced thermal throttling with Prescott
you could actually set your CPU and computer on fire
8:52 PM
You still can if you try hard enough and believe in yourself
Might need some extra gasoline though
@Shog9 now it requires an accelerant yes
@ShadowWizard literally knew someone who wrote some SSE2 fluids code that allegedly did it, and was apparently part of the reason Intel included the thermal monitor system in Prescott and beyond.
@Shog9 Get a laptop with a NVIDIA GPU and run a neural network. Guaranteed to keep you warm while cooking your food!
I had a roommate in college that had a laptop that actually hit TM2 on a regular basis it was so dirty
8:57 PM
Report to putin plz. My russian is limited.
@πάνταῥεῖ Just remember, smokey is just putin it out there for reviewers to see :p
Great pun @princess
> No system with downvoting, and close-as-duplicate (or "putting on hold") will ever truly be considered "welcoming". Nor should it be. -- Jeff Atwood at 1:56 PM - 26 Apr 2018
"Nor should it be."!
Joel ==
Not to mention that some even older veterans attend here. For me for example it was here decades ago already:
@ShadowWizard I literally took a stick of butter out of the fridge and put it next to my laptop for five minutes today, and the end of it turned to liquid.
9:12 PM
The "social" vs "factual" aspects seem to be sticky and hard to address.
And accepted Tim's answer for now
@bro How do we get oneboxing like this?!
The oneboxing on SO is awful compared to that
Nevermind. I am a fool
9:44 PM
@Jhoverit Oneboxing what actually?
@Tim You may want to consult the greybeard guys, even if they look a bit like catweazle nowadays. — πάντα ῥεῖ 24 mins ago
@πάνταῥεῖ I thought that was the onebox from a twitter link. Turns out he manually pasted the text and made a link for it
Is another summer of love happening?
the eternal september of discontent
@Shog9 Oh, come on, you mean throwing chairs isn't welcoming?
@Jhoverit At the bottom of this page, "formatted link to a tweet".
9:48 PM
So the only thing I see in the blog post that's about a moderation feature, rather than rude comments, is "It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate."
Framing SO communication problems as an issue of bias (the blog ends with a link to implicit bias tests, thank you so very much Jay) is like removing "thanks" from a spam post and moving on.
Yeah, I didn't really get what the whole thing was with the rhetoric about including minorities.
We can't even tell if OP's a minority, we can only tell that the question's a dup and probably due to the fact that dups are so common and take much more effort to clean up (especially if it's not dup-hammered) than they take to ask, even if it takes more effort to ask for OP than to look for the dup target, we downvote.
@hichris123 I mean... Maybe in the WWE?
Cultural acclimation is needed though
Hmm, I guess asking on SO should feel more like editing wikipedia than making a forum post.
9:58 PM
We'll always have DevDoodle.
A typical new user will see SO, want to ask a question, click "Ask Question", do a single sign on, click through the huge block of guidance text without reading it, and see a WYSIWYG editor that looks like they're making a forum post. "is your question about programming?" "yep, it looks like I'm good". Post.
@bjb568 The proposal to present them with a question template to fill out/in instead of the just blank WYSIWYG editor window was proposed times enough.
That's what DevDoodle's always had.
10:17 PM
> So, to all those who are whining and moaning about @StackOverflow wanting to make itself a better, more inclusive, and welcoming community, let me just say this: Go fuck yourselves. (Views are my own, and not those of my employer) -- rossipedia at 3:13 PM - 26 Apr 2018
A preview of meta posts on this topic.
Q: It’s time to retire the term “rep-whore”

JaydlesGoing forward, “rep-whore” (and its derivatives) will be treated like any other term that’s inconsistent with the community’s “be nice” policy: it will be removed. It’s totally okay if you’ve used it in the past. Nobody’s judging the many users who’ve used it. And users will NOT start being s...

^^^ apparently, this didn't work
10:40 PM
@bro considering how some proponents of the more inclusive SO are treating its users on Twitter, that's pretty mild
Q: Is it possible to know the gender or race of another Stack Overflow user?

geometrikalThe recent blog post brings up some important observations about the Stack Overflow community. In particular, the paragraph about bias suggests to me that it is often possible to know another user's gender or race. For example, We don’t tolerate our female users being called “sweetie” or get...

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