Tavern on the Meta

user315433

01:30

We aren't going to remove the content immediately. It'll probably be several weeks before we finish with the Q&A links, so the content will be on the site for at least that long. It's also still up in the air what we'll do. Our initial plan as presented in the question was crafted with significant time pressure. We certainly didn't decide (or even suspect) until recently that Documentation needed to end. Our final plan may very well look different. Stay tuned. — Jon Ericson ♦ 6 mins ago

user315433

01:49

Pressure... I guess DAG needed resources and Docs were the logical place to take them from.

user202362

02:12

you need to stop discriminating against round people ...

John Militer

02:37

Oy!

Shog9

02:50

@TravisJ Afaik, they never went away. Just... Taken for granted.

@ShadowWizard please see: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6240148#6240148

user202362

03:06

are you in L.A. @bjb

bjb568

03:31

Yep.

user202362

how long are you going to be there

Journeyman Geek

03:53

I still think testing things ~~in production~~ on SO is kinda silly

Jon Ericson

@Alex Not exactly. Once we made the announcement, we felt it imperative to get the word out as quickly as possible. I treated it like shutting down a site only many times as complicated.

(Not that we've shut down many sites that weren't in private beta for many years.)

@JourneymanGeek At least for Documentation, we learned tons in the first week of public beta that we could never have figured out in the private beta.

Scaling is never linear or extrapolatable.

bjb568

@Telkitty Leaving on Saturday.

Journeyman Geek

04:16

@JonEricson documentation is essentially a new/seperate product but a lot of the issues with a new site/project to me at least, is the culture around it. Oh, and complaints about cheese moving.

Obviously - definite bias on my part from being primarily around SU and the smaller sites - and I've not exactly been keeping track of the stuff happening on SO...

and stuff like documentation might be useful for devs outside the context of SO. Pretty sure a few use SU for documentation/support

Inc.

and Apple, and Android, ~~and Windows Phone~~

Journeyman Geek

it ain't dead, its pining for the fjords

user315433

04:50

Android is really a ghost town

user315433

158

Technical Communication

Proposed Q&A site for technical writers, content developers, engineers, scientists, and other professionals involved in the process of creating assets for documentation, education, and presentations of technical subjects.

Currently in commitment.

user315433

Originally Documentation, but renamed because that name was already taken. Now what.

Journeyman Geek

tbh, technical communication is a better name

user315433

Astronomy gets spammed more recently, because someone's script hits Apple, Ask Ubuntu, and Astronomy in quick succession, then gets blocked.

user315433

Day after day after day

user310756

05:47

How does Shog appear in chatrooms at opportune moments? What kind of powers does the man have???

user202362

scripting power of course ...

user202362

sHog and his 99 bots

user310756

@Telkitty but what the dickens is he listening for?

user310756

he appeared out of the blue here

Journeyman Geek

Some mysteries are better left unpoked

user310756

05:59

Like an ant hill or a wasps nest?

user310756

or an angry wrestler?

Journeyman Geek

or worse. A shog

user310756

hm yes

user315433

06:30

@Alex It may not look like a lot in absolute terms, but the spam rate growth is (⌐■_■) astronomical.

Shadow Wizard

@Shog9 oh, but merge is still borked where chat is related... and I'm pretty sure Alex case involved tons of merging and undeletion of accounts. Oh well. :)

user315433

There wasn't any undeletion that I know of, and the question wasn't about me...

user315433

Planning to become a developer instead of CGOS? ;) — Shadow Wizard 2 mins ago

user315433

animuson was a web developer before joining SO

Shadow Wizard

@Alex well, from what I saw you deleted lots of accounts and came back with new accounts, thought you also kept some contents, but guess you didn't. As for about you, I did mention you specifically before: chat.meta.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/6236522#6236522 :)

@Alex yeah, but he wasn't hired as a developer... maybe he's making a move towards changing that. ;)

user315433

06:43

Ah, that was before they made the change.

Shadow Wizard

@Alex so this is your final form? You won't delete this account? :)

rene

delv-pls 20K cryptocurrency meta.stackexchange.com/questions/299215/… /cc @bart @sha @TravisJ

user315433

07:02

I spam flagged both of those math.se posts, it's a crank stuffing the site with their "proof" of a famous conjecture

Shadow Wizard

@rene first to close, last to delete.

rene

→ 23 messages moved to Chimney

Shadow Wizard

07:35

@ShadowWizard we have monthly meeting when we flip a coin and decide if we keep fix/feature or revert it :) — Paweł ♦ 43 secs ago

Huh! I knew it! ^

Magisch

07:49

Documentation is getting deaded

\o/

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch not deaded! Sunsetted!

Turns out it's official term....

Application retirement

Application retirement, also called application decommissioning and application sunsetting, is the practice of shutting down redundant or obsolete business applications while retaining access to the historical data. Legacy applications are often maintained solely to provide infrequent or sporadic access to data within the application database for regulatory or business purposes. With some organizations spending upwards of 75% of their application software budgets on ongoing maintenance, application retirement can deliver significant cost savings. The act of application retirement usually involves...

(didn't know that until seeing the sun set over Documentation)

Magisch

@ShadowWizard w/e

Time and energy will not be spent any more on it

that's about it

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch w/e?

Inc.

wateva

Shadow Wizard

ic

too old for those shortcuts... sob

used to "meh", sounds better... :D

rene

08:19

@ShadowWizard meh

→ 5 messages moved to Chimney

Shadow Wizard

@rene hem

rene

Ahem

Sagar V

09:00

@ShadowWizard like Adam ?

Shadow Wizard

@SagarV yup

Sagar V

//learn yup Yeah!!

oh wrong room

Travis J

09:37

@rene - Your answer on mSO is correct.

The deleted one, that was spot on. Casing does matter for html ids, and using the wrong one fails to match an element. JSFiddle will also reproduce this behavior, you can see it in the console here with your code example.

Kind of shocked such a high rep user would be so clueless like that, especially since it seems to be in their related tags...

user310756

@TravisJ hi :)

user310756

@Telkitty hi :)

user202362

09:53

hey @yve :)

Sagar V

@Yve get ready to become a SO mod

may happen at anytym

rene

@TravisJ still can't explain why it behaves in the stacksnippet as it does. So that is why I retracted the answer

Is the undelete vote yours?

user310756

10:13

@SagarV true - you just frightened and excited me a little :)

rene

10:23

@TravisJ now undeleted and edited a bit after I confirmed what wasn't working in JSfiddle

Sagar V

10:35

@YvetteColomb they may contact you to fill the gap

@YvetteColomb excited? You owe me a real unicorn :-)

Shadow Wizard

@SagarV gap? Who leave?

Sagar V

nope. in future if they think the existing crew is not enough? a gap will be created

Shadow Wizard

10:49

> already cv-ed to migrate it to MSO

@rene how?? ^

Sagar V

@ShadowWizard I think pertains only to a specific site

Shadow Wizard

@SagarV that won't migrate it, and not to MSO

(it can be specific to any of the 160+ sites....)

Sagar V

hmm. Only rene can answer it

Shadow Wizard

@rene is busy?

Sagar V

the next guess is a custom mod flag. but it doesn't affect the CV

Shadow Wizard

10:54

@SagarV ohhh, and better not disturb the team with those.... :)

I think that the count of questions closed as "belong to specific site" that got migrated after being closed is really really low.

If anything, they are migrated before being closed, if a diamond spot it and feels generous enough....

rene

@ShadowWizard yes, no. I meant I cv-ed as pertains on a specific site. Sorry about that.

Shadow Wizard

@rene buh

:P

rene

@ShadowWizard well, I was sure I had a good a dupe on MSO ... but realized there had to be one on MSE as well ... I'm rushing it ... calm down ...

Shadow Wizard

@rene but closing rarely means it will be migrated, see my above rant

rene

11:10

@ShadowWizard well, sure ....

what do you want to hear?

Shadow Wizard

"You are right"
"You are awesome"
"You are never wrong"

:D

Sagar V

"you are wrong"
"You are not awesome"
"You are never right"

:P

Shadow Wizard

nooooooo

cries

Sagar V

alexolut

@BrianNickel How do you think, should I post or not bug report like this one about iOS-app in the future?

Shadow Wizard

11:21

Huh? How Brian is pingable?

alexolut

Sagar V

oh

Shadow Wizard

@alexolut chat.meta.stackexchange.com/users/235711/…

Last message in January

in the long dead room for the apps

alexolut

iOS/Android room is frozen so I post here

Shadow Wizard

11:38

@alexolut yeah, in three months that won't be relevant anymore though.

I do hope Brian will move to the mobile team, mobile web needs a real boost.

alexolut

@ShadowWizard why does chat say that "Brian talked 2d ago" if there is no messages from him?

Shadow Wizard

@alexolut dozens of private rooms here on MSE chat

e.g. for each team

Only 3 "public" rooms, so 5 private rooms active in the last 2 hours

alexolut

so this is how it is...

Sagar V

welcome buddy

alexolut

:)

Sagar V

11:51

??

Shadow Wizard

(:

alexolut

:):

schrodinger smiley

Sagar V

:(:

Schrodinger's brother smiley

Shadow Wizard

::)

happy alien

alexolut

:(:): Schrodinger's siamese brother smiley

Sagar V

12:03

:):(: Scrodinger's wife smiley

alexolut

are we ready for: room → move messages → trash?

rene

@alexolut More like move messages → Den

Sagar V

There is already a lot filled by 3 bots.

another 1 is waiting in the queue

alexolut

@rene and then → trash :)

Sagar V

no. anything once entered to Den won't leave Den :)

Shadow Wizard

12:20

Black Hole

Sagar V

even it will trap aliens like you @alexolut

alexolut

@SagarV I'm not an alien ... I'm a robot!

Sagar V

oh. clear now

alexolut

@SagarV where are you got my hi-res photo?! :)

Sagar V

from SO Database :P

alexolut

12:26

Shadow Wizard

@alexolut umm... your profile... ?

Just removing the ?s= from URL

alexolut

@ShadowWizard I know ... just kidding :)

Sagar V

@ShadowWizard grrr

alexolut

We already have been discussed something related here

Shadow Wizard

:)

Magisch

12:49

I don't like this comment proposal

Officially comments are for clarification but practicly a huge culture has built around banter in the comments on multiple sites

I think this change could have an effect similar to what happened to reviewer numbers after the topbar change

Shadow Wizard

@alex if you want to be merged with me, here's the avatar:

alexolut

@ShadowWizard thanks, but I married :)

Sagar V

can the API be used to query DATA SE

Shadow Wizard

13:05

@alexolut lol!

@SagarV no, it's different database

Think API works with production database, nothing in between.

SEDE is just a mirror copy

Sagar V

@ShadowWizard oh

Journeyman Geek

well, technically the API is the thing between....

Shadow Wizard

@JourneymanGeek API is just the code... question if there's any data layer between this and the live production data?

Journeyman Geek

Ah

alas, no clue

Shadow Wizard

I assume no, but who knows maybe they got some defensive layer.

rene

13:28

→ 14 messages moved to Chimney

Journeyman Geek

13:43

I would assume with rate limiting and such...

Steven Vascellaro

14:12

Should I mark meta.stackexchange.com/q/248109/351462 as a duplicate of meta.stackexchange.com/q/298748/351462?

Sagar V

When checking date and votes, it should be marked oppositely

Steven Vascellaro

The only reason I think the reverse is because the latter only covers 1 specific example of /current not working

cazc_941

14:37

I'm alive

Shaun Frank - No Future feat. DYSON (Lyric Video)

►

user315433

After Stack Overflow doesn't love us anymore? :( it went in the other direction...

user315433

Shadow Wizard

@Alex lol too much love

user315433

And linking to Meta.SO with <3 is just... I can't even.

Shadow Wizard

MSO is a lovely place

user315433

14:42

Instead of <3 it should be <-8 (referring to projected post score).

Shadow Wizard

lol

user315433

The email is the Docs sunset notification, btw. The post is now up to 40K views and 27 answers.

user315433

I think this may be the first email I from SO/SE that doesn't involve suspension.

Shadow Wizard

@Alex suspension??

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Non-Latin link in answer, username similar to website in answer: Understanding the terms in motion of a particle along a parametric curve by kafsabizarin on math.SE

user315433

14:46

@SmokeDetector spam

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer, link at end of answer: What scriptures describe Krishna teaching Narada about Maya? by Miya umar Khalid on hinduism.SE

Shadow Wizard

!!/report math.stackexchange.com/a/2381306/123966

user315433

@Magisch This feature request aside, I actually believe our implementation of 'comments' is completely contrary to how people interact in the real world ("share, but not too much; solve this problem, but without empathy or discussion) — it's why this system is so contentious and frustrating. I've actually designed a brilliantly simple, true "commentary system" which raises engagement without stepping on the Q&A (the reason we regulate comments so heavily)— No internal interest to date. I may post the design someday, but I've just about given up evangelizing it. Folks are focused elsewhere. — Robert Cartaino ♦ 28 mins ago

user315433

Robert has discovered a truly marvelous system, which the comment box is too small to contain.

Shadow Wizard

@Alex yeah I think he took the success of the change on Area51 bit too far....

user315433

15:06

@AstroCB posted on Meta for the first time since last July. \o/

Bart

15:22

Oooh, @YvetteColomb in 3rd place. Congrats. Sorry you didn't make it, but not bad at all. :)

Inc.

@Alex that feature request will kill more fun, unless SE regulars ~~can't read~~ feel that jokes are also improvements...

user315433

3rd place may well be called up later.

Bart

Yup

user315433

More engagement in a brilliant commentary system is about the last thing I want on these sites. There's enough vampirism already.

user315433

15:56

!!/report expatriates.stackexchange.com/a/11631

Brian Nickel

@alexolut It's a good bug. If we're not actually flogging people for stray S's, we shouldn't be for missing device names.

alexolut

16:10

@BrianNickel looking for score on it, I can't say that it is good enough for community.

@BrianNickel when we can expect next version of iOS-app?

and no one of downvoters leave a comment :(

M.A.R.

@alexolut downvoters of what?

alexolut

-6

Q: iOS app can't detect iPad Pro device name properly

My new iPad version is Pro 10.5". StackExchange iOS app unable to properly detect that device. See below: App Version: 1.7.0.1 Device: Unknown (iPad7,3) OS Version: Version 10.3.3 (Build 14G60)

M.A.R.

It's probably for having an iPad

Or being named alexolut

@alexolut one possible reason I can think of is it looks too short and too much like those bug report submits from the iOS app that didn't contain any other details

Brian Nickel

@alexolut Next release is a bit up in the air. I made some big changes: Completely redid the menu and the top level view controller so it's same on iPhone and iPad, moved from built-in navigation animations and gestures to a custom one, and redid how splitting works on iPad. So, I'd really like to see how it does with the testers for a while first. On top of that, I'm helping out a lot with the DAG team this month, so I'm just not pushing the release along like I otherwise would be.

user310756

@Bart thanks! I feel like I've won - 3rd place - crikey

Bart

16:25

And good to see I made it to 2nd ... I mean, Cody made it to 2nd place.

2

M.A.R.

@Bart aaaaaha!

Now Bart has got the real power

He's the mastermind

Evilly laughing off through his frames

Bart

Given the amount of stupid things I've done today, I'm not sure I deserve to be called a mastermind

Steven Vascellaro

@Bart I don't think you can top registering stackoverflow.com/story/current as your own personal URL

M.A.R.

@Bart those are done on purpose

user310756

@Bart yeh your sock puppet made it LOL

jadarnel27

16:51

To the new Stack Overflow moderators: brown

Although I'm still a little hurt that I didn't win.

rene

You have to love your users: Uploads enormous image, complains image is enormous ... easily fixable though ...

M.A.R.

@jadarnel27 I agree

jadarnel27

As you should.

rene

@jadarnel27 you win ....

jadarnel27

\o/

M.A.R.

16:55

@rene by not posting the image

Enormous images are pretty annoying on Chem though

"Look at the structure below . . . " Goddamnit how much do I have to scroll to get to your point?

rene

@M.A.R. oh sure ...

M.A.R.

@rene the other day some teenager posted a gigantic selfie of himself under the post haha

rene

17:12

@M.A.R. oh yeah, I recall that ... awkward ...

user315433

17:45

@M.A.R. Was that on Web Apps? That's where people who are trying to get access to their Facebook or whatever account usually post (as an answer under a random question), attaching a photo of self "for verification". I don't think it works...

M.A.R.

@Alex nope, on Chem

user315433

18:40

user315433

Augur launched yesterday (on a Wednesday, as an exception)

Inc.

Looks like Telkitty

(just a pure guess)

user315433

18:55

The avatar? Just another Elephant character. Not feeling creative recently.

Inc.

Err, I meant the one who pinged Adam on that screenshot

Anyway, now waiting for my chat profile cache to update~

(just when I posted that...)

user315433

19:08

One can tell that Augur does not have as many SE / Area 51 regulars as most private betas... in the first 24 hours there is only one meta post, with no answer or comments.

user315433

> Stackoverflow has a goose that lays golden eggs, but they weren't satisfied because it didn't have golden feathers -- Aaron Meurer at 10:31 AM - 3 Aug 2017

user315433

I've heard a lot of stories about you, Moyshe. — Oded ♦ 5 hours ago

user315433

... what kind of stories?

Jon Ericson

Moses

Moses (; Hebrew: מֹשֶׁה‎‎, Modern Moshe Tiberian Mōšéh ISO 259-3 Moše; Syriac: ܡܘܫܐ‎ Moushe; Arabic: موسى‎‎ Mūsā; Greek: Mωϋσῆς Mōÿsēs in both the Septuagint and the New Testament) is a prophet in the Abrahamic religions. According to the Hebrew Bible, he was a former Egyptian prince who later in life became religious leader of Hebrews and lawgiver, to whom the authorship of the Torah, or acquisition of the Torah from Heaven is traditionally attributed. Also called Moshe Rabbenu in Hebrew (מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ, lit. "Moses our Teacher"), he is the most important prophet in Judaism. He is also an important...

?

user315433

Probably not, there is no mention of him having Samsung J7 on Wikipedia.

Jon Ericson

19:22

He was a more of a tablet fan.

(Kept breaking 'em, though.)

amanaP lanaC A nalP A naM A

19:39

snace.herokuapp.com

^ ill just drop this here.

rene

@amanaPlanaCAnalPAnaMA stupid game. I pressed Enter and it said Game Over.

user315433

That's the best kind of game, minimizes the time wasted.

amanaP lanaC A nalP A naM A

20:16

@rene lol bc it prob spawned right next to a wall

Oded

@Michelle it is a joke name. Used for the character name in jokes.

Aaron Hall

21:11

I think Documentation should be spun off as a separate SE site.

Shog9

159

Technical Communication

Proposed Q&A site for technical writers, content developers, engineers, scientists, and other professionals involved in the process of creating assets for documentation, education, and presentations of technical subjects.

Currently in commitment.

Aaron Hall

rolls eyes

I think you should keep the experiment going.

Adam Lear

Private beta was a separate site. But Docs was always built on the premise of living on top of SO (or, well, a technical Q&A site). There's non-trivial effort involved in fully separating it.

Aaron Hall

What if it became the wikipedia of programming and you guys could sell advertising on it? That would probably pay for that non-trivial effort...

user315433

There is no reason someone else could not make your proposal happen just as well as we could. What would Stack Overflow (the company and the community) bring to the table? — Jon Ericson ♦ 47 mins ago

Adam Lear

21:21

@AaronHall That's... quite an "if".

Aaron Hall

@Michelle I responded to that in my answer fairly comprehensively.

Adam Lear

Our Docs UI would be extraordinarily bad for a wiki. I mean, it wasn't even that good for what we tried to do... which wasn't a wiki in a commonly understood sense. :) "Build it as a separate site" is still a project in and of itself.

user315433

@AaronHall Looked mostly like branding to me. "That sweet Stack Overflow name", which was supposed to make the mobile app tremendously popular.

Aaron Hall

I don't install apps so I am not familiar in the least...

user315433

As far as documentation goes, I'm more likely to contribute to a project linked to the thing I'm documenting, not to some third party's site.

Aaron Hall

21:26

Yeah, but I sure wish I could edit those darn online linux man pages with some examples...

Jon Ericson

@AaronHall There you go. ;-)

Aaron Hall

Wikipedia doesn't have them.

Who else could?

You've got to be willing to compete with yourself.

Aaron Hall

21:51

Oh neat, being discussed on HN: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14917765

user315433

Monday morning quarterback is a popular position to play.

Aaron Hall

You mean the clueless commenters on HN?

user315433

Yes, though I didn't read the comments.

Aaron Hall

Yeah, a lot of them are removing all doubt... but the comments I've read so far aren't even mentioning Documentation.

Shadow Wizard

@Oded hey, why is this deleted? Looks like a valid bug report.

Oded

22:06

@ShadowWizard I suppose that I figured that after 3 years of being open, the chances of it being fixed were... low.

Aaron Hall

I finally found a thread addressing it - currently the 2nd top level thread.

> Agreed. I didn't even know Documentation existed.

> I'll one step further: it is the first time I hear about SO's Documentation.

Shadow Wizard

@Oded but so are thousands of other bug reports..... :/

@JonEricson not really... @Oded meant this one. (Sorry, couldn't find anything in English.)

Aaron Hall

I had to collapse the first top-level thread to find it... too many posts complaining about how Stack Overflow closes interesting and funny off-topic questions.

Jon Ericson

I read some of those comments on Hacker News and it is, of course, disappointing to hear. However, the problems we were looking at would not have been solved by more people as we (perhaps naively) once thought. We provided a structure that worked well enough for some types of documentation, but not at all for others. To be more useful, it needed to be much more flexible. Promoting an incomplete feature would not have helped. — Jon Ericson ♦ 3 hours ago

Aaron Hall

Here's a link to the thread I was talking about: news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14917947 (click parent link for the whole thing)

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