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12:37 AM
Now that I think about it, it could just be a clipboard error
2 hours later…
2:46 AM
I like your message. This link will also help -> The Tavern Tour
@MetaAndrewT. deletes message and nukes @MetaAndrewT.
2 hours later…
4:21 AM
Oh hi
Realized the tab is open, so I seem to be always online like @Mithrandir :P
2 hours later…
6:30 AM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog That's the answer of a single mod on a network of hundreds of moderators... not enough to come to the conclusion that 'mods tend to'
@Rob presumably that's just one example out of many observed
Perhaps... but I've never seen anything like that. And that particular example was just someone's own opinion and not presented as a requirement
And if we weren't supposed to use binding votes.. we wouldn't be given them
@Rob If I were just given a plain vote, I'd be more apt to use it, whereas if I knew I had a hammer, I'd consider twice before using it.
Your vote is either wrong or it's not. If everyone blindly used their votes because they trusted others to fix it... well... that's bad
6:46 AM
A: A organization with over 70B in funding which cannot get a footer right?

GlorfindelYou've answered the question yourself: this was an oversight. Oversights happen at all levels, from all the way up the US government down to people posting a question on Meta Stack Exchange without actually specifying what their question is, assuming the other users can read their mind. Mon...

Since the Q was closed again with a binding vote by a moderator (which is very rare here) we can take that as a guidance that it's indeed off topic and it's probably not appropriate to try to reopen, if only because it could get closed again and so on. Meanwhile your answer is comprehensive, welcome back @ Crafter, and as for OP, on the positive side I suppose it's useful you got 5 answers some of which probably helped you @gparyani! — English Student Mar 11 '18 at 20:40
7:06 AM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yeah, well... I wouldn't recommend people to regularly take the approach you took there.
7:23 AM
16 messages moved to Chimney
7:41 AM
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yeah uh, does SE have 70 billion in funding?
Or is that bananas instead. 70 bananas in funding
@M.A.R. Probably not bananas. Waaay too expensive :(
(Our office cut back on the free fruit, that will be no more.)
Right. Broccoli.
@Tinkeringbell That sucks :/
@M.A.R. Yeah, I'm already missing my Monday banana.
Fruit is love. Fruit is life. Or some other variation
Unless it's watermelons. Then food is bathroom breaks.
Oh well... time to buy so many unhealthy snacks that they'll be forced to reintroduce the fruit :P
7:43 AM
Post some screenshots on Twitter too, of an unhealthy overweight employee working on a desk filled with empty snack wraps :P
Eat greasy all the time so everyone in the room would act like disinterested zombies
Make sure they can see the company logo :P
See, this is why you're better at workplace stuff than me
I will learn these soon enough
@M.A.R. had to do a double take there
SE certainly does not have 70B in funding
7:46 AM
@M.A.R. I'll teach you. Let me know once you've got a job ;)
(I don't promise you'll be able to keep it for long though!)
Hey I can be annoying
Persuasively so
Never noticed, sorry.
(╯T_T)╯︵ ┻━┻
@Magisch I'd would not be surprised if it was under a billion, total
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog You don't
And until someone trusts you with a hammer, please don't tell people how to use theirs.
I know how to use a hammer
Something about oppressing nails
With political pressure
7:53 AM
@M.A.R. Have you been given one though?
I have one on MSO for the discussion tag
it is heavy and unwieldy
@Tinkeringbell I went back in time and stole two Mjolnirs
@JourneymanGeek I don't understand where I told you how to use your hammer in a certain way. I simply asked why you used it in a certain way.
Which incidentally caused Thor's mom to slightly die
@M.A.R. Oh nice. Now you can share :)
7:55 AM
It's okay. My conscience is clear.
@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Well, once in a while is fine
But we often get the idea its less curiocity and more second guessing
@JourneymanGeek you should use your hammer IN A CERTAIN WAY. There I said it. No shame.
Did you notice Mjolnir is good for fetch?
carries it in his mouth, and drops it on @M.A.R.'s foot
Jokes on you, my foot is made out of Hela's hand.
That came out wrong.
I mean
You know
7:58 AM
<insert wisecracking oneliner on how it doesn't work>
@JourneymanGeek That looks like he's about to jump at you and ruin another pair of clean pants :P
@Tinkeringbell ... pants?
@JourneymanGeek Yeah. You know, the thing you wear when going outside? :P
the dog from my office that looks just like ash is a gigantic softie
would make a poor guard dog, would probably try to befriend any invaders
@Magisch Ash is friendly
But had a very scary bark when he was younger
@Tinkeringbell uh... Thoooooose
8:08 AM
Yeah, those :P
8:55 AM
@Tinkeringbell some don't wear pants :D
@ShadowTheDragonWizard Eh.
@ShadowTheDragonWizard As I said. THooooseee
@Tinkeringbell they wear jeans. ;)
@ShadowTheDragonWizard Jeans are just a type of pants
or shorts of various longness
8:59 AM
(i.e. at least for me, "pants" describe pajama pants)
Those are just a type of pants too :)
hmm.... are underpants type of pants too? :P
But if you make venn diagrams, they overlap with lingerie ;)
9:14 AM
I like it when underpants and lingerie overlap.
Ooookay. Might be time to take the conversation back to safer waters...
You're welcome.
@Mithrandir I'm going to order new pants tonight, probably :)
Pants and I don't get along very well. It's impossible to find pants that actually fit and will stay on me.
@Mithrandir I have two models that fit me well, and as long as they're selling those online, pants shopping is easy
9:18 AM
They discontinued the pants I had been wearing, and then the ones I had died violently.
"died violently"
They basically tore in half.
I have this mental image of pants flapping in the breeze...
then getting shot.
then shot with a tank...
then bombed
then getting nuked....
I avoided getting shot by the tank!
in the animation style of "evolution" by Foo Fighters
9:30 AM
Can I get a tank? Pretty please?
<minirant> I really want to use it for purposes </minirant>
You have a diamond instead :P
Yeah but that's no use in real life ....
I can't suspend my manager or company XD
@Tinkeringbell y'all sold most of yours ;p
9:32 AM
@JourneymanGeek I had enough savings to buy a tank before... but now I need to keep those for my apartment.
(I can't remember if our tanks are ex german or ex dutch...)
Well, if you have a tank, you might not need to pay for the apartment.
or just set up a little bedroom in an AFV
Best of both worlds
@Mithrandir Hmmm. But I don't think it'll be mine until the money has been transferred to a lawyer-ish person. Only once all the money is in some kind of fund, will they start building.
@JourneymanGeek Perhaps... though I've seen how 'big' my apartment is going to be a little last Friday when picking out the kitchen, and I think it would be too small for me.
@Tinkeringbell Are you using credit or buying in cash?
9:40 AM
@Magisch A bit of both. 30k will be cash/savings, the rest a loan.
How much you looking at in total?
@Magisch almost 190k
So pretty doable :)
a coworker of mine just built a whole house for 200k
9:43 AM
Yeah, that's not going to work over here, I think ;)
190k for an apartment? Ugh ... I want that.
There's a lot to do about building homes without access to gas, so only electricity... Which means homes are getting more and more expensive :/
@Bart A small one. One bedroom, bathroom, living room with kitchen area and a toilet :P
But I do have a garden and a shed too :)
Yeah, over here that would be 800k to 1M. If I would move out of the city quite a bit, that would still be 500k. Housing here is insane.
@Bart what is the rent there like?
o.0 and I thought stuff was insane here already!
9:49 AM
@Magisch I live in a studio for about 1k Euros. And that's a good deal because I live there for ages now. A decent apartment with a living room, kitchen, bedroom would be around 2.5k.
@Bart !
Of course salaries are higher here as well, but in general pretty much nobody buys here. Everybody rents. And supply is so small that people will pay what is asked anyway.
I live in a studio 50 square meters apartment with bathroom and pre-supplied kitchen 10 minutes from work per bike for 375 (including fees, electricity, heat and internet) a month
It's one of the few reasons I sometimes consider leaving. Taking my savings to NL and buying something would be so much better.
10:12 AM
@Bart buy this:
10:40 AM
@ShadowTheDragonWizard Oooh, fancy
@Bart I'd wait until the next crisis ;)
So next year then? :p
Something like that... I'm kinda glad I'll be spending my savings before I have to pay for them :P
@Bart you must have tons of money though with all the stars you get here. No? :D
@Tinkeringbell crisis?
Their value seems to be limited to a specific audience @ShadowTheDragonWizard ...
10:47 AM
@ShadowTheDragonWizard Yeah.. financial crisis?
Home loan bubble?
@Bart they are yellow, like gold.
Housing bubble, is the correct term I believe.
@Tinkeringbell ohhh..... yeah
Bubble gum is better.
Bubble Bobble is also good.
what concerns me is where they go from there
10:49 AM
usually they lower interest rates in response to crisis
Yeah... I'm not happy with the way things are going here. Once I have my apartment, I likely should start looking into my retirement, because I have a big feeling that once I'm done working, there won't be such a thing as retirement left, even though I pay for it each month.

With the current interest rates, this system is going to break :/
@Tinkeringbell Looks similar for me. Politicians are even quite open about that people under 55-60 right now can't expect to get state retirement but can expect for their contribution to it while working being increased substantially. We have too many old people and not enough young people for the system as currently designed to work
Right now I'm paying a % of my income every month for a benefit I'll confirmedly never have access to, and this % is expected to increase in spite of that.
@Magisch Same here. There's talk of individualizing, but there's currently no legal way to do so. (So you can start your own retirement fund, but you're still expected to pay a % to a big funding company too, and a % to the government).
Luckily, the talk here is focused mainly on lowering pensions until the funds have their business in order, and not of increasing the burden on people that aren't retired yet and may never be :)
lowering pensions is unviable here, as many people are already on minimum pensions, and further decreasing it is unviable as well, as the old people vote in force
they're talking about automatically raising pensions now instead, knowing full well it'll only hasten the system's demise
@Magisch Yeah there's much the same complaints here.
But here, younger people are quite good at speaking up too, saying that they don't want to pay more now as we're also already quite badly off: Many people my age can't save up enough to buy an apartment while single.
Because they're already renting, and rents are pretty steep here too
11:05 AM
Fundamentally the current economic system is relying on there being more earners then beneficiaries, which is shifting with the age pyramid. In the end we'll simply all have to work until we can retire privately or die
And home ownership rates are actually in a steep decline since the rise of reverse mortgage like schemes
@Magisch Yep. It's also pretty noticeable in health care here, more older people and treatments that make people live longer but are very expensive are pushing rates up each year :/
Many people are not inheriting their parents homes anymore, as the parents use reverse mortgage type instruments to supplement their small retirement income, giving up the homes in the process
one of my aunt's friends is doing this, her kids won't inherit her house. The bank pays her monthly and will own the house when she dies instead
@Magisch Yep, one of the major complaints here is that new homeowners can't get a loan due to there being so many restrictions on how high your mortgage may be (currently: 100% of the price you're paying for your house, meaning you have to have around 5-10k readily available for all other costs)
@Magisch Oh, yeah, I know of those schemes too...
This is part of why the right wing is on the rise in europe again
people are angry and feel cheated out of the good life their parents had
I think I'm having a better life than my parents had right now... it's just the far future that I'm worried about.
11:11 AM
most people do not. real wages have been stagnating for decades, sometimes going down
even in this killer economy people work more, for more different companies, for less.
and things you want cost more, ahead of inflation
Yeah, true. I guess for me and my parents the main difference is my education... went to university, which made it possible that I could learn programming later in just 6 months...
At least in europe we don't have a rampant student loan crisis
some people 250k$ in debt at 7%+ interest for getting their education
with absolutely no guarantee of a good job afterwards, and even if they do, having to pay that off
@Magisch Waiit a minute... some people here are getting into that, we just had an article a few weeks back that politicians wanted to undo that. Students here have to loan too, and can easily rack up 50k in debt or more... And they can't buy houses afterwards because they already have this on their credit registration :/
I guess I was lucky. Because if I'd studied archaeology and had 50k debt now, I wouldn't be able to buy an apartment...
@Tinkeringbell Now imagine you were told your whole life that college is essential for a good job, but the major isn't important. Imagine now your archaeology major had put you 250k$ under and that 250k$ would accumulate 17.500$ interest every year, but your job would only pay 40k or so, most of which disappears into rent
Yeah, sucks.
11:20 AM
Now you understand the largest source of civil unrest in the USA :D
It's what this country is working towards too...
And that debt was structured in such a way that bankruptcy doesn't get rid of it, and they can garnish your wages directly
And it often makes me want to scream at politicians LOOK! LOOK OVER THERE! CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW IT'S BROKEN?!
some would argue putting people in debt and precarious living conditions their whole lives for the profit of few is working exactly as intended
Yeah, well... It's probably not as simple as that...
Most people that complain about precarious living conditions here are the people that can't/won't work
now for can't that's not good... but for won't I have a few choice words.
11:25 AM
It's probably not a "shadow conspiracy" type of deal and more of a "alignment of interest" and lobbyism from the profitting industry now keeps the status quo intact
giving out a state guaranteed loan is a pretty good deal if you can get it
You lend, collect interest, and if the reciever defaults the state pays you back in full (including interest) anyways
no risk, guaranteed profit
We'll see. Apartment buying first, then building up to the minimum recommended level of savings again, then retirement plans.
whats your interest rate on your apartment loan?
seems like they're historically low atm
@Magisch Yeah, it's going to be low... something like 1,5% or something?
Oh no wait, I set it for a longer time so I don't get the cheapest... it's at 2.05 .
No comment? ;P
(currently out soooo)
11:40 AM
@ShadowTheDragonWizard I tried for almost 30 seconds to picture what the verb fortigate means before I figured out it was the subject
lol you don't see my requests often enough then... they always consist of the subject of the off topic question, in a way. :)
12:20 PM
I would have assumed it to be a scandal involving the long gone Forti F1 team.
12:41 PM
@Bart . . . OH HOLY CRAP.
Wake up, sheeple.
12:54 PM
I recently came across the x10 engineer discussion on twitter again
Did it get better? :)
no, only more elitist
Whenever crap like that comes up, it's a good time to close the dumpster fire that is Twitter for a while.
It is incomprehensible to me how an outwardly progressive field like tech is so filled to the brim with people who have orders of magnitude higher opinions of themselves then of others
@Magisch That's because it's 'outwardly' progressive, instead of progressive ;)
It's still seriously disappointing how often I get offered X or Y or asked/tasked with Z because I'm female. On the outside the company is progressive, promoting equality... on the inside, it's just as rotten as everyplace else that doesn't seem outwardly progressive.
1:03 PM
I read a thread of lots of people arguing that taking vacation is being selfish and not team players and that "real 10x engineers" don't take any and avoid going home at any cost
and some people calling programmers with ASD "the holy grail" (puke)
Oh, my company's motto was almost "7/24/365". I don't understand.
If they weren't kidding/sarcastic, that's really bad.
@Tinkeringbell If they were, they were prepping this joke for a long time with their other posts
Currently it's "7/24" though...
@Magisch Blegh...
1:05 PM
Uh, naive moment here
@MetaAndrewT. That's not too bad :)
WTH is X10.
I like that, I'm at 8/24 XD
Sounds like a BMW model
the mythical concept that a "good programmer" is 10 times as effective as an average one
1:06 PM
> Bill Gates — 'I choose a lazy person to do a hard job. Because a lazy person will find an easy way to do it.'
@M.A.R. There was this really awful thread about 10x engineers and their very effective habits on Twitter that you most likely missed because Twitter is blocked?
Started with this:
> 10x engineers

Founders if you ever come across this rare breed of engineers, grab them. If you have a 10x engineer as part of your first few engineers, you increase the odds of your startup success significantly.

OK, here is a tough question.

How do you spot a 10x engineer?
That sounds like horsesh . . . Who am I kidding that sounds like Twitter alright.
They're generally synonymous.
@Mithrandir Hey! My crochet is on Twitter too....
1:11 PM
Who buys into this crap. I mean, here we look up to Netherlands and Germany and call them the pinnacle of positive human collaboration. People doing things right so they're the top of the food chain economic progress
Hence the "generally" :P If I thought it was totally worthless I wouldn't be there.
@M.A.R. Oh, this was more specific to India I think, as Geek said he recognized that attitude :P
Also... please don't. We're really not.
Just keeping up appearances ;)
I don't, don't worry.
I've seen @Magisch's puns.
@Tinkeringbell India and Iran are very alike in most social aspects.
@Tinkeringbell surely you can crochet horseshit?
To us, Indians seem more religious. To the whole world, Iran seems crazily religious.
1:13 PM
psst, horseshoe, it's horseshoe!
@M.A.R. I grew up on the edges of the Bible belt. I know crazily religious ;)
Previous company I worked for had a boss who was a believer in Gamedev crunch. I.e. systematic overtime (unpaid of course, except for a promised bonus which didn't come in the end). It was so self-defeating. Tired devs become less and less productive. Making more mistakes. Causing build days to ramp up to 10 hour days of frustration.
@Bart Never encountered that, luckily.
I made overtime exactly once in almost 3 years now, and that was entirely voluntarily.
1:22 PM
whats extra frustrating is that these people's idea of a good programmer is always a terrible one
someone who does lots of stuff on their own, out of process, and doesn't teamwork at all
@Magisch honestly there's three problems
1. Programmers have become beings of legend
Its the path to a better life... etc etc
@Magisch They can be... But it puts the 'burden' of that teamwork on other members of the team.
2. The people managing tech folks in general are often not really in touch with the state of things or tech.
the 10x guy was not a programmer
3. Programmers believe their own myths ;p
Software needs to serve man, not the other way around
@Tinkeringbell we ended up doing 10 months of it, and if we dared to leave before 7pm, you'd have a message waiting for you when you arrived home. Crazy thing is, most of the employees defended the concept.
@Bart If your crunching, your management failed to manage time ;p
1:28 PM
@Bart o.0
That's just weird.
@Tinkeringbell stockholm syndrome
@JourneymanGeek Ehhh.
@JourneymanGeek Exactly ... but my position wasn't shared :D Glad that time is over.
At the end of the day - 2 things really matter. Your happiness and your paycheck.
Unless the company goes above and beyond to earn your trust - and you can't really totally trust even the best places
Well, maybe a video worths 10X pictures (warning: half-sarcasm/humor, half-serious)
1:31 PM
I've seen some great developers in favour of the 10x concept. But one thing they all had in common was that they were their own boss, or working with great freedom. They decided what they did, and when they would do it.
@Bart the problem with the 10x concept, other than being completely wrong is it makes the antisocial, high maintainance dev seem normal
If you're your own boss, sure
but practically - if no one else understands what you wrote...
and are afraid to ask you stuff
you're basically a rockstar...
the sort that gets washed up and dies in a toilet in a pool of your own....
And If I want a rockstar anything, I'd rather have a Dave Grohl to... i donno, those folks who throw TVs out of hotel windows.
ya, y'all are thinking of worse things than human bodily fluids. You get the idea.
1:39 PM
@JourneymanGeek But throwing TVs is fun!
@Tinkeringbell not if you are the one cleaning up
also, back in the day, there were these things called CRT TVs....
@JourneymanGeek Those make the best ammo!
They implode really nicely :D
@JourneymanGeek and they slag off the kind of dev we actually all like to work with
the person who has great advice and is well integrated into the team, and makes those around them more efficient and productive
@Magisch I'm of the opinion that if you cannot work with people, even if you don't like them...
and a real rockstar's the one who is helping the rest of his team become even 2x better
by sharing knowledge
we have a guy like that on here
and constantly have to defend him against management who buys into crap about devs
1:43 PM
The guys here are really great at that as well :)
> 2. The people managing tech folks in general are often not really in touch with the state of things or tech.
Like devops. Is not making programmers sysadmins, no more than SRE is turning syadmins into pure devs.
Its about breaking down silos and helping information flow
... but lots of folks assume that... it means we can just shift everything into the cloud
and forget servers exist
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