Tavern on the Meta

Meta Andrew T.

2:29 AM

Welcome to morning call...

Mazura

How does one get a network wide suspension until '92?

Rob

2:49 AM

Suspended by a CM

Journeyman Geek

3:01 AM

@Mazura be very bad

John Dvorak

Step 1: go back in time and found Stack Overflow in '91

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

5:46 AM

@JourneymanGeek Can you please explain the rollback here? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/331027/…

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheAnonymousWizHog It was wrong. It was all wrong.

Every single edit was incorrect

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

Even the "its" changes?

Journeyman Geek

It if were any more wrong, it would be illegal in 39 states.

There is no space in dupehammer

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

@JourneymanGeek But I'm the one who removed it

Journeyman Geek

Well, there's no space in helpdesk

I donno

a lot of it annoyed me

Getting asked why a edit was rolled back annoys me too

You just have to deal with the fact people occasionally don't think it added anything and hit the great big red rollback button.

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

5:55 AM

Well, there is a bright side: if I answer the question, it will still count as an "edited and answered" question for the purposes of Explainer/Refiner/Illuminator.

But yes, to anyone who makes an edit to one of my posts that I roll back: please don't hesitate to ask me why if you like, and I'll tell you the full details. Unlike many others, I'm not one to be annoyed when asked so, in general.

Now, back to scanning my filmstrips...

Journeyman Geek

7:34 AM

→ 38 messages moved to Chimney

→ 4 messages moved to Chimney

@JohnDvorak or is walled up

and goes

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD MONTRESOR!

Meta Andrew T.

NOOOOOO!

Journeyman Geek

(cause how often does one get to reference B5 and Poe at once?)

ShaWiz

7:47 AM

So....

@Journeyman I did reduce my hammer blows in the recent months, but suspect I'm still one of those you talk about?

Journeyman Geek

@ShaWiz I very intentionally didn't mention anyone XD

The point of the question is to get folks to think, not to blame

ShaWiz

And I do sometimes post answer quoting from existing faq instead of closing as dupe of it.

@JourneymanGeek sure but you can point here. :)

Journeyman Geek

I guess the broader point I'm trying to make is though - its worth considering whether the closure is helpful

rene

@MetaAndrewT. are you sure you want to consider me as an authoritative source on that?

ShaWiz

I can take it, and need it in order to improve.

Journeyman Geek

7:49 AM

I mean, not the cuddly cotton wool wrapping newbies

Meta Andrew T.

@rene ja

Journeyman Geek

but if someone comes in, and their posts are closed as dupes, even if its well written and specific

they're unlikely to come back.

ShaWiz

@MetaAndrewT. js

@JourneymanGeek still, if it IS dupe, the good of the site comes first.

Meta Andrew T.

the only time I dupehammered a question on Android.SE, I got insulted by OP :D

Journeyman Geek

@ShaWiz the good of the site might not be closing everything against a set of FAQs immediately

ShaWiz

7:51 AM

@MetaAndrewT. you mean mod hammered?

Meta Andrew T.

mod-dupe hammered

ShaWiz

@JourneymanGeek sure

Journeyman Geek

So I guess a big part of my complaints as of late is balancing curation against content

We can't curate away all new content.

or a good chunk of it

ShaWiz

But suppose there are 10 questions asking "How often can I edit my comment?" What you suggest to do? @Journeyman

Journeyman Geek

@ShaWiz if they're exact dupes, sure

ShaWiz

7:52 AM

The answer is given in the rate limit faq.

Journeyman Geek

@ShaWiz which is huge

ShaWiz

So we can post 10 answers pointing to the faq, or.... close as dupe.

Journeyman Geek

That's kinda the point here

Or we can pick one as a canonical one for that problem

and close against that

Meta Andrew T.

break the FAQ into sub-FAQs to make it more specific... whistling

Journeyman Geek

and refer that back to the FAQ

ShaWiz

7:53 AM

And then we'll be just like Yahoo Answers, in a way.

Journeyman Geek

We don't have to be Vorlons or Shadows ;p

ShaWiz

Not quality, but amount of same questions lying around.

Journeyman Geek

(or auditors)

ShaWiz

going to play with daughter

Meta Andrew T.

have fun...

Journeyman Geek

7:54 AM

@ShaWiz this is a controversial and highly subjective matter XD

I don't think I can convince everyone, or enough folks

Meta Andrew T.

you convinced many, but they don't have the privilege...

Journeyman Geek

@MetaAndrewT. they might eventually

John Dvorak

8:06 AM

Let's hope not. Dupe-answers instead of dupe-closures are only the first step, and it's already a step towards worse.

Journeyman Geek

@JohnDvorak Well - you could post that as an answer. Its worth remembering this is literally something I've been complaining since I became a mod

But once again though - there's got to be a balance between everything goes, and basically being totally focused on closing as much as we can.

And having the idea that "We don't have to - think about it!" isn't a bad thing. Its something every new mod has to struggle with the moment you realise your close vote just became this odd squarish thing with lightening bolts.

ShaWiz

Daughter lost interest in playing with me, watching a talking monkey now. :/

Journeyman Geek

XD

shakes a paw at TV

Tinkeringbell

@ShaWiz So she's watching you? :P

Instead of playing? :P

Journeyman Geek

.... burn... ;p

ShaWiz

8:11 AM

קופיקו (סדרת טלוויזיה)

קופיקו היא סדרת טלוויזיה ישראלית לילדים המבוססת על סדרת ספרי הילדים הישראלית המצליחה בעלת אותו השם מאת הסופרת תמר בורנשטיין-לזר. העונה הראשונה של הסדרה החלה את שידוריה בשנת 1993 בערוץ הילדים. ב-2 באוגוסט 2009, כ-16 שנים לאחר ששודרה העונה הראשונה, החלו שידורי העונה השנייה, שהופקה עבור ערוץ ג'וניור ו-yes וכללה שחקנים חדשים ודמויות חדשות. לסדרה נוצרו שלוש סדרות ספין-אוף, ובינן קופיקו חוקי הג'ונגל (2010), קופיקו במשטרה (2018) וקופיקו המנהל (2018). לאורך השנים יצאו לשוק בישראל כל פרקי הסדרה המקורית והמחודשת בקלטות וידאו וב-DVD על ידי חברות ההפצה קלסיקלטת ופליי רקורדס. בשנת 2009 יצא DVD של "קופיקו",...

No English version, sorry.

Google Translate can do fine job, I think. ;)

Tinkeringbell

<minor rant> Not really a burn but... I have this blister on the bottom of my foot and the skin broke so it's basically a patch of raw skin and it hurts :( </end minor rant>

ShaWiz

hmm?

Journeyman Geek

@ShaWiz trying to post a google translate link

https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=auto&tl=en&u=https%3A%2F%2Fhe.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2Fקופיקו_(סדרת_טלוויזיה)

breaks horribly

ShaWiz

No it works

Journeyman Geek

cause of the ... half brackets?

ShaWiz

8:14 AM

It just encodes the Hebrew

No?

ohh

Journeyman Geek

translate.google.com/…קופיקו_(סדרת_טלוויזיה)

ShaWiz

yep borked

Journeyman Geek

yuuuup

John Dvorak

@JourneymanGeek Pro-tip: Lighting = coverage by light or a source of light; lightning = electric discharge through air; lightening = reducing mass. I suspect you meant lightning, not lightening.

Journeyman Geek

The special efx budget for us mods is terrible

Its made of styrofoam

Mithrandir

8:16 AM

We've got to provide all of the sound effects ourselves.

Journeyman Geek

Especially the whooshes

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir Basically it's that Lilly Allen song though :P

ShaWiz

Well it was fixed for markdown in posts...

134

Q: Links to URLs containing parentheses

How do I add a link to a URL containing parentheses () (or "round brackets" by heathens)? For example: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa752574(VS.85).aspx The parentheses around "VS.85" causes it to look like this: Markdown: [IHtmlDocument2 reference](http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-...

Chat markdown get less love. :(

John Dvorak

But hey, it did get implemented. Oh, wait, 2014.

ShaWiz

Probably before, Jon didn't fix it, just handled a flag, most likely.

Journeyman Geek

8:20 AM

Or noticed it was fixed, went to post a question....

Marshmallow

@Tinkeringbell foot aches are like watery noses. They're annoying especially because you take their working correctly for granted

Meta Andrew T.

not running nose?

Tinkeringbell

@Marshmallow Yep...

Though stuffy noses are way more annoying than watery/running ones. At least with running ones, stuff is actually moving!

Marshmallow

@MetaAndrewT. My nose doesn't have legs

Journeyman Geek

Oh those suck

Almost as much as knee blisters

Marshmallow

8:29 AM

If that's a perk Android mods have, I'm happy I'm not an Android mod

@JourneymanGeek elbow. Definitely elbow.

Tinkeringbell

How do you get blisters on knees or elbows? (And I don't mean second degree burn blisters)

Marshmallow

Reckless biker

Tinkeringbell

Strange way of riding a bike, that'll give you blisters on your knees or elbows :/

Marshmallow

Or LOL wth

Tinkeringbell

Would be nice if Travel had more people sharing free tickets to stuff!

I have a vacation period coming up, free tickets to fun things to do are always welcome :P

Marshmallow

8:33 AM

@Tinkeringbell I don't have blisters. Mine are shameless, badass scars.

@Tinkeringbell Conference on cancer and oncology?

Tinkeringbell

@Marshmallow Ah, so you're a supervillain? Those are usually the only ones with scars.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell leopard crawling over hot rocks with guns firing over your head

Marshmallow

Working on it

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek Aren't those burn blisters from the hot rock then?

Journeyman Geek

Then doing it a second time cause your PC was an idiot

Nope.

Marshmallow

8:35 AM

Rock is always hot.

Journeyman Geek

Probably would have blistered anyway

The dehydration wasn't fun either

Mithrandir

@Tinkeringbell you're watching the wrong movies then

Marshmallow

@Mithrandir Pretty sure Killmonger turned himself into a pickle to prove a point.

Tinkeringbell

Mithrandir

But I can get behind MAR being a villain. Maybe not a supervillain, though.

@Tinkeringbell fair enough

Marshmallow

8:37 AM

Snort Are you still daydreaming about you being evil? Puh leez.

Mithrandir

@Marshmallow I'm saying you're not super enough to be a supervillain. *runs*

Marshmallow

I won't have muggles telling me that

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir You know... I think you're right.

Marshmallow

HEY! I can be a competent villain

I could put aspartame in all of the Halloween candy, for example.

Mithrandir

> "competent villain"

Marshmallow

8:41 AM

It will induce cancer to some rate.

Which will exert economic pressure

Tinkeringbell

@Marshmallow Hmmm. I think I can just not give people Halloween candy at all :P

Marshmallow

Statistically insignificant

Tinkeringbell

I mean, I came up with the plan of flooding The Netherlands....

Marshmallow

Well that won't work

Tinkeringbell

Haven't found a perfect execution plan yet, but at least I thought of it!

Marshmallow

8:42 AM

They float.

Tinkeringbell

You'd wish :P

We'd be an island by now and have Nexited the EU :P

Marshmallow

I could also randomly replace socks as presents for father's day and Christmas with something more expensive.

That would pressure other dads to ask for something more expensive.

More economic pressure.

Journeyman Geek

That would be evil. I need more socks

Psychostick - Dogs Like Socks [official music video] "I'm a dog and I like socks"

►

Tinkeringbell

@Marshmallow You'd get your economic pressure from reciprocity too. Though somehow I've never learned of a civilization dying from that...

Marshmallow

9:18 AM

@Tinkeringbell Depends on what you trade

ShaWiz

10:47 AM

:(

Motive known so far is "plagiarising"...

Meta Andrew T.

Well, anime/manga world is known as "plagiarising"...

ShaWiz

@MetaAndrewT. really? Why?

Meta Andrew T.

-4

Q: Did "Fairy Tail" plagiarize "One Piece"?

As shown in the following pictures, there are so many similar scenes/character designs with One Piece: Isn't this considered plagiarism?

one-piece fairy-tail

ShaWiz

@MetaAndrewT. oh

Meta Andrew T.

11:12 AM

oh, I should have written '"plagiarism" is known in anime/manga world', not vice-versa. Derp.

Meta Andrew T.

11:36 AM

ugh... reading "smoke detector" after reading that news is ...

Tinkeringbell

11:55 AM

@MetaAndrewT. Well, I just saw a bit of how Wikipedia worked :) When I opened the page it had a notice saying it might be deleted, then I clicked through to the discussion, saw a lot of people argue to keep it, and when I went back to the page indeed the notice was gone!

Also my Twitter is now irreversibly set to that new lay-out and I still don't like it :(

John Dvorak

I know they said this change is permanent, but surely when they hear how much we're complaining someone will find a way to change things back.

Tinkeringbell

@JohnDvorak Exactly that ;) Though this one really sucks: The 'old' version gave me a notification if there were new tweets within a hashtag I'm keeping an eye on, and a button to load those newest tweets. The new one doesn't, I need to refresh the entire page (and it feels like it's loading much slower)

ShaWiz

@Tinkeringbell well at least they gave us "grace period".. SE doesn't give even that. ;)

Tinkeringbell

12:11 PM

@ShaWiz They do! The new moderator dashboard is still optional ;)

But I like the new one well enough, so not switching back anymore

ShaWiz

@Tinkeringbell really?? Never saw that, just see the "This article documents a current disaster. Information regarding this event may change rapidly and may be unreliable." notice.

Tinkeringbell

@ShaWiz I don't think it was up for long ;)

But yeah, it had one, for a little while

ShaWiz

@Tinkeringbell oh.... good then! :D

Tinkeringbell

@ShaWiz But yeah, for some things it doesn't really make sense to offer such a grace period... if you're going to shove it down people's throat, might as well get the pain over with immediately ;)

ShaWiz

plz-delete supernova meta.stackexchange.com/questions/331041/…

@Tinkeringbell depends how big the frog is, I guess. ;)

Tinkeringbell

12:16 PM

As long as it doesn't have warts...

ShaWiz

Warts give it special taste

Tinkeringbell

Yuk.

Topic switch!

Meta Andrew T.

@JohnDvorak someone is wrong on the i... wait, wrong scene...

Tinkeringbell

@MetaAndrewT. In this case, it's 'something' not 'someone' :P

Mithrandir

@Tinkeringbell Sorry, I don't game, can't contribute anything to a discussion about that topic.

Tinkeringbell

12:27 PM

@Mithrandir I need my vacation to start. I have way to little time to use mine!

Meta Andrew T.

I heard Super Mario Maker 2 is popular

John Dvorak

Listing everything that's wrong is enough for several lifetimes of crippling depression. Ignorance is bliss.

Tinkeringbell

@MetaAndrewT. Yeah, both my brother and a coworker of mine play that :) I've just bought Stardew Valley.

Anne Daunted

Are questions closed as dupes really such a huge problem (on MSE)? I'm a bit surprised by the newest discussion and the OP itself doesn't contain any data or examples.

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted Its something that's been a bit of a pet peeve, and vaguely controversial comments on another question kind of inspired that

Tinkeringbell

12:32 PM

Define huge... but we mods have definitely seen plenty of people getting upset to the point of being rude over it, and if we want a less murderous meta...

Journeyman Geek

broadly - I kinda think some dupe closures are kinda badly thought of.

Tinkeringbell

Can't hurt to quote the relevant part in either an answer or comment before closing. Or just write an answer and not close.

Journeyman Geek

And I'd like to tilt the closure criteria from "Its in the FAQ somewhere" to "What's the best thing to do here?"

Meta Andrew T.

So, how bad was the close-reopen loop on MSE?

Anne Daunted

@Tinkeringbell I guess those people are not the problem, but the closed questions?

Journeyman Geek

12:33 PM

@MetaAndrewT. honestly? It annoys me a lot

@AnneDaunted Eh, I don't think you can discount the social element

Before I became a mod, I kept hearing folks saying MSE and the tavern were toxic

Meta Andrew T.

Toxicity is relative, but I agree there was a moment like that on the Tavern

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek I get your point. If people misbehave, we must please them.

Journeyman Geek

And a lot of moderation and managing a community is trying to find that balance where we're not utter anarchy but we're also not so focused on getting things perfect that we forget folks who're still finding their feet.

@AnneDaunted naw, this is something that has bothered me personally for ages

Oh heck

May 10 '18 at 12:50, by Journeyman Geek

I'm not a fan of how folks dupehammer stuff, but I'm not sure of a strong, convincing reason I can use not to

More that I managed to find a frame of reference that seems like a reasonable reason to ask people to consider a specific case of duperhammer usage

Meta Andrew T.

And the only cv-pls that I participate is only for blatantly off-topic

Journeyman Geek

Now I need to find a frame of reference to handle the unhappy folks.

Meta Andrew T.

12:39 PM

Bottomline: don't use canned comment...

Journeyman Geek

@MetaAndrewT. >_>

this is literally the only site I use canned comments on ;p

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek Has there been abuse of dupehammers? Or incompetent usage and you had to manually reopen those questions etc.? It maybe your pet peeve, but for a low-rep outsider like me, it's not clear from your post why that's such a problem. E. g. when I look at the MSE front page, I don't see many questions closed as dupes (but maybe I came too late and earlier every single one was closed).

Meta Andrew T.

If premature dupehammer is considered as abuse...

(I don't really have an opinion on this though)

Anne Daunted

Well, if you have a question and do your reserach before posting it, you will likely come across the possibly wrong dupe targets and can add an explanation why it's not a dupe.

ShaWiz

@Mithrandir you can take picture of a frog

Might be better than the bot

in Shadow's Den, 20 secs ago, by Pseudohuman

Journeyman Geek

12:52 PM

@AnneDaunted It happens often enough, and the thing is I don't think closing against the faq is appropriate

and it happens

critically

Mithrandir

@ShaWiz I've got pictures of a baby preying mantis

Journeyman Geek

I feel that MSE's supposed to also act as a sort of helpdesk for folks

ShaWiz

@JourneymanGeek people say a site is toxic once they get a downvote. I stopped paying attention to such people, sorry.

Journeyman Geek

We certainly expect that of staff - and that's certainly something that I think they can do better

@ShaWiz honestly?

We're getting better

I'm not going to accuse people of being toxic

But I'm going to try to get people to think about behaviours I think are problematic

Its fine if they disagree

ShaWiz

I accuse people of accusing people/sites of being toxic with no valid reason.

Magisch

12:54 PM

Whenever someone unironically uses the word toxic they've lost all credibility and pretext of good faith in my book

Anne Daunted

In my opinion, the FAQs are valuable resources and usually the first place I look for information.

Journeyman Geek

Which can be true

@AnneDaunted true, but they're kind of the great big book of everything

Magisch

It's used exclusively to chill participation and is a lazy shorthand to avoid substantiating anything

Journeyman Geek

There's value in targetted, cliffs notes answers too

ShaWiz

@Mithrandir sure, go ahead! :)

Journeyman Geek

12:55 PM

"Its in the FAQ" is basically RTFM

But folks sometimes miss the details

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek You mean information dispersal?

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted there is nothing wrong with that

Magisch

There are quite a few words that have lost all meaning and basically became indicators that someone is not arguing in good faith

Journeyman Geek

On almost every site, there's at least a bit of that

Magisch

"problematic" "toxic", etc.

Journeyman Geek

12:56 PM

@Magisch But I'm using that in terms of what I feel about it, and trying to get the conversation going on those things

Magisch

should be edited out with extreme prejudice in service of actually having a discussion without flinging accusations

Journeyman Geek

Sometimes even when I disagree ;)

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek Except for when things change, information needs to get updated. Then let's ping you and you edit all posts ;-)

Journeyman Geek

@Magisch I'm not sure how else to describe my views on it

Magisch

idk man, maybe I'm just sore from everyone using hyperboles on each other all the time lately

It's worse outside of stack

Journeyman Geek

12:57 PM

@Magisch So, how do I describe this?

"I don't like it, I think its better if folks changed this"

Or "This dosen't work well, we might try this"

I call them problematic. ;p

Anne Daunted

I guess I just don't see what is so great about copy-pasting a portion of the FAQ and paste it as an answer to a dupe question (instead of closing it as a dupe).

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted well, no, you use that as a starting point, kinda tailor it a little...

Magisch

I would say it's better to not just copy paste from the faq, but to give an actual answer you substantiate / source from the FAQ

Journeyman Geek

^^^^

Anne Daunted

It's like some questions can really be answered by looking up the exact wikipedia article - someone does, pastes it in an answer and the question goes HNQ...

Magisch

12:59 PM

It's good for that, but too general to fit narrow question cases people have

We can't expect every aggrieved user sounding off on meta to have read and understood enough context to see how the specific FAQ encompasses their problem.

Meta Andrew T.

Until we're at the same level of Twitter...

Journeyman Geek

So, I've both done helpdesk professionally and been on the receiving side of it

Good helpdesk folks make you feel like they actually listened to your issue

Even if its off a script

I have one vendor who just mails you a stock script no matter what the issue is

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek I guess they also get paid for it

Journeyman Geek

On the other hand, my domain host asked a few questions (on chat), and basically threw it to higher level support, who tried to fix it, and went "we're sending this to our L3"

@AnneDaunted well, true, but people react mostly the same

I guess the question is, what do we want people to do?

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek Curate the sites?

Journeyman Geek

1:03 PM

@AnneDaunted I don't think curation is a primary goal

Its useful, but I don't think MSE exists to be curated

Curation is useful in maintaining quality - but I think there needs to be a balance between putting up a stockade, and opening up the gates to the hordes of september.

Meta Andrew T.

FR: create Stack Exchange Wiki, including for hosting FAQ

Journeyman Geek

But getting people to see things that way is a long term goal

Anne Daunted

Have people ask as many questions as possible, regardless of quality (because that generates clicks and that's good for ads revenues).

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted Well - MSE has no ads, and I certainly don't get paid

And despite my best efforts I don't work for them

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek But SE in general has them

Journeyman Geek

1:06 PM

@AnneDaunted but you're talking about one extreme.

Meta Andrew T.

But we're talking about the dupe problem on MSE

Journeyman Geek

@MetaAndrewT. and well, I suspect broader cultural goals/differences

Mithrandir

2

Tinkeringbell

Well... if we're going to accept support questions, we need to be at least a little bit supportive. So we either answer instead of close, edit our monstrous FAQ posts to be single question type things instead of massive lists, leave a comment explaining the duplicate closure and which part answers the question if there's more than 1 thing in the target...

It's not so much those people that are the problem, it's that sometimes the system seems focused on only thinking of the question and not the person.

@Mithrandir Aww, tiny!

Journeyman Geek

......

Mithrandir

1:09 PM

Much smaller than the last praying mantis I saw.

Journeyman Geek

@Tinkeringbell erm... that's not what I was going to say, but it seems better ;p

Anne Daunted

@MetaAndrewT. Something I don't see. That's why I ask. The info could already have been in the question on MSE, but isn't

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted So, narrowly - is a dupe closure going to help someone find an answer they need?

@AnneDaunted Its one of many things I'd like to change, slowly ;p

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek To be honest, I don't know. I don't know of any question I ever asked that was closed as a duplicate.

Meta Andrew T.

@Mithrandir Woah... so tiny... (blame my slow internet)

Journeyman Geek

1:11 PM

@AnneDaunted it does happen though

And I probably see it more cause I spend almost all day on the site ;p

(every day... ._.)

Meta Andrew T.

Heh, I believe the first question I asked on MSE was a dupe and deleted due to negative score, maybe an MSE mod can show it...

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek If you don't do your research, for sure. Seriously, the FAQ shouldn't be a dupe target because it should just not be necessary. It's the first post you should check before considering asking a question.

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted That assumes they know where it is

or can find it

Tinkeringbell

@AnneDaunted My first question here was closed as a dupe... and this comment clarified a bit of the system for me that until then, I didn't realize mattered for dupe closures on MSE

Journeyman Geek

or search works well enough

Anne Daunted

1:13 PM

@JourneymanGeek Then maybe that is what needs to be changed.

Journeyman Geek

Actually - Tink's example is one where the dupe closure seems ok ;p

@AnneDaunted That people don't know a site as soon as they came here?

Meta's hard

Anne Daunted

@Tinkeringbell Bug reports are a little bit different though.

Meta Andrew T.

@JourneymanGeek I was about to say "I don't defend/blame those people"

Tinkeringbell

@JourneymanGeek True... But before those comments, I actually had a reaction of 'this is wrong, mine was first'!

The 'other' question doesn't have an answer either, just a few comments too...

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek To make FAQs more accessible

Journeyman Geek

1:15 PM

@AnneDaunted But maybe relying too much on TFM is part of the problem

Meta Andrew T.

Surprise, FAQ is already accessible on MSE: it's on the right sidebar of the homepage. Huh, you didn't notice it?

Journeyman Geek

hmmm

Lets see...

Meta Andrew T.

Yeah, FAQ for SE is on the bottomest...

Journeyman Geek

Ok, a bunch of this is not actually FAQ

Right!

Lets go there

Magisch

@Mithrandir It's a mini-mantis!

Journeyman Geek

1:17 PM

1754

Q: FAQ for Stack Exchange sites

Community FAQ For sites in the Stack Exchange 2.0 network To see a list of commonly used words and phrases, see the glossary. For official guidance from Stack Exchange, visit the Help Center. Asking questions How do I write a good title? How can I get answers fast? Where can I ask a ques...

support faq

Magisch

I oppose closing support requests as dupes of FAQs generally

Journeyman Geek

Lets assume you go there

Meta Andrew T.

TBH, I almost never found anything I want on the FAQ index...

Magisch

by all means link to them and use them in an answer, but FAQs are by necessity general and support requests are usually specific

ShaWiz

@Mithrandir so cute! Is it on your bag? You kept it somewhere safe?

Journeyman Geek

1:18 PM

How're you going to find anything there?

Mithrandir

@ShaWiz It hopped away after a few minutes

ShaWiz

:(

Journeyman Geek

(also, this is why I focused on faqs here)

ShaWiz

When I find spiders at home I try to take them outside.

Journeyman Geek

Its the single most confusing thing unless you know MSE

Meta Andrew T.

1:19 PM

So, Re-FR: let's move the FAQ to Wiki that supports table...

Journeyman Geek

@MetaAndrewT. rearrange the deckchairs?

Anne Daunted

@JourneymanGeek In your question, you focus on those wielding dupehammers instead.

Journeyman Geek

Eh, that's a reasonable complaint

and a poor choice of words on my part

Meta Andrew T.

@JourneymanGeek or proper columns. Like the Help Center.

oh, wait. No one read the Help Center also...

ShaWiz

@Journeyman this whole discussion led me to think about changing the way duplicates work, even to the point of not having them close the question (i.e. new answers will still be accepted), just the banner on top saying this question might have answer elsewhere.

Anne Daunted

1:21 PM

@JourneymanGeek True, I mean it's always easiest to criticize the few who spend their time curating the sites

Meta Andrew T.

@AnneDaunted well, if the curation got some critics, then probably there's something wrong with the curation...

Anne Daunted

@MetaAndrewT. If I criticize people for closing programming questions on MSE, then there's also something wrong with closing programming questions on MSE?

Tinkeringbell

I'm not sure we're criticizing... just taking a critical and hopefully useful look at how and why we do the things we do. If curators feel criticized, it probably was a poor choice of words

Journeyman Geek

@ShaWiz which was really the goal

I messed up in focusing on the big hammers, and forgetting the little ones

Meta Andrew T.

@AnneDaunted Aren't we talking about dupehammer?

Journeyman Geek

1:25 PM

I actually had this rattling around in my head a few days...

and well, I guess I can be accused of overenthusiasm myself ;p

Anne Daunted

@Tinkeringbell My main point is: It's not really useful, because it is too broad and vague. That's why I'm asking if that's actually a problem. It should have been made clear in the question to begin with.

Meta Andrew T.

Okay, not dupehammer, but dupe closure.

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted depends on your goal

Meta Andrew T.

And dupe closure is certainly the most "controversial" closure (not even on MSE)

Journeyman Geek

If I got too specific I'm mostly targetting people

I literally want people to consider alternatives.

No foul if you absolutely feel something is a dupe

Anne Daunted

1:29 PM

@JourneymanGeek It seems that one user managed to provide data in their answer without targetting anyone. So it seems like it was / is possible.

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

You may have also noticed that in recent months, I no longer ping people asking for them to use their dupehammers.

Tinkeringbell

@AnneDaunted I am curious if Glorfindel could do the same for all duplicate closures (not just dupehammered ones). But it sounds like the query might end up being too big.

Sonic the Anonymous WizHog

@Tinkeringbell You can check review history. I'm sure most of them gathered their subsequent close votes through the review system.

Anne Daunted

I'm just curious why that's such a big deal. It's not that I gain anything from seeing dupes closed as dupes. On the contrary, if I happen to be the first one to come across the billionth question asking why they didn't get their Curious badge, it's basically free rep for me.

rene

With a bit of effort only what Shog9 states in his answer wrt picking an FAQ post could be seen as a problem. But I have yet to see a bulk of examples where dupe hammers or dupe voters did follow that approach on questions that weren't just more then a rant in disguise.

Meta Andrew T.

1:45 PM

I dunno... if we have a good canonical post/FAQ for specific "Why I still don't get my Curious badge?", I'm very much okay with the dupe closure.

Tinkeringbell

meta.stackexchange.com/q/330917/369802 < I think that's one recent example whose dupe closure I don't understand, especially as OP has clarified in comments it's about moving the existing chat system to something more like Slack/Discord...

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheAnonymousWizHog I absolutely don't think folks in general should be working around privileges they don't have throug chat

Tinkeringbell

And I know that's not a FAQ post, but I've seen that link more than once to close stuff...

Journeyman Geek

@AnneDaunted My question covers that

if there's an existing post that's an exact dupe...

go ahead

Anne Daunted

@Tinkeringbell But it seems to have been closed as a dupe regularly by 5 users, not a single dupehammer wielder

rene

1:47 PM

@Tinkeringbell that dupe is just wrong

Tinkeringbell

@AnneDaunted True. Geek edited the question to include those too ;)

Meta Andrew T.

@Tinkeringbell I'm starting to be bewildered by that dupe

ShaWiz

@Tinkeringbell agree. Reopened.

Looks like "Horde effect" when one user make a mistake, and others follow almost blindly via the review.

Meta Andrew T.

In 6-8 time unit, MSECVR will be created...

ShaWiz

meh

Not enough traffic to keep such room alive.

rene

1:52 PM

Okay, so that was one example. no dupe hammers involved there but I admit I down voted the question.

ShaWiz

@Tink also, at this point, I think you can reopen such questions, you have enough experience on the site and people know you already so won't freak out. :)

Tinkeringbell

@ShaWiz Hmm. Perhaps. I'll find another example to discuss when I arrive home today :)

Journeyman Geek

@rene sorry about that. Poor choice of words on my part

Meta Andrew T.

uhh...

nvm...

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