Tavern on the Meta

12:05 AM

I got only 20k

That's what @nicael took back in the day... ;)

Tanner Swett

So I wonder. If I see a post that abuses blockquote markup, should I edit it to remove the blockquote markup (assuming that I have a significant enough change to justify making an edit)?

Or is it better to leave it as the author wrote it?

It used to be that whenever I saw a quote block, I knew that the contents of the block were a quote.

But now people are using quote blocks to simply highlight material rather than to indicate that it's a quote.

So now every time I see a quote block, I have to spend a few seconds figuring out if it's a quote or not.

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@TannerSwett yes, edit.

Journeyman Geek

About 4k here

Rob

1:38 AM

At least a couple of people report trouble with the aggregator, is anyone else getting upvotes/accepts that are not showing up in the Achievements Notification but do appear on their Reputation tab ?

Rob

2:31 AM

Fixed.

iBug says Reinstate Monica

5:36 AM

You know what? I had a dream last night, saw an announcement from an SE staff, a large block of text of apology, with Monica answering "thank you" with her diamond next to her name, voted to +1k

3

mag

7:10 AM

morning

Shadow The Princess Wizard

@iBugsaysReinstateMonica each and their own wild fantasies.... my own is waking up inside a huge pile of chocolate..... :P

Raedwald

7:25 AM

There is evidence that the original decrease in reputation for upvotes to questions did not increase question quality.

Aibobot

Biuntly speaking...

You don't care about reputation till you stick around

and if your only goal os a place to ask questions...

mag

i've said it before. You don't join a community to ask questions with intent of becoming a long term member. Having questions you need to ask is not something you can reasonably control. You can't make a concerted good faith effort to ask X questions per day, but you can for answers. It's inherently asymmetric in both reward and incentive to do, so the majority of the long term community will always be answerers rather then askers, by pure nature, on a site like this.

Asking good questions with future value is really hard, and almost always just happens when someone has an actual problem. Contriving one doesn't really work for these purposes.

Aibobot

7:45 AM

I ask questions cause the problem is kicking my tail, and I've tried every possible thing I could think of ;p

or someone dazzles me with brilliance and that stuff needs documenting. I've literally had a few that started off as a troubleshooting session which was like "whoa... THIS NEEDS TO BE A POST"

user58

@mag I kinda can make an effort to ask a question a day.

I did that on Lit for quite a while.

mag

on lit maybe

even if I spend the whole day coding there is no guarantee I'll run into an issue that can't be answered by 2 minutes with google, usually on SO itself. It's extremely rare the opportunity to ask a question presents itself

Aibobot

@user58 I used to answer one a day

user58

I've asked 425 questions on the network across 36 sites. Most of those are not "actual problems I've encountered"; they're questions I thought would have an interesting answer.

Aibobot

@user58 All of mine were problems I encountered

Even the stupid ones :D

user58

7:58 AM

I think there's a bit of a difference here between the technical sites and other sites.

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

8:13 AM

Also between (technical sites + other sites) and meta sites

Aibobot

Per site metas should ALL be practical actual problems ;p

user58

Oh I wasn't counting meta sites

Aibobot

and meta isn't really a meta site

Meta Andrew T.

red pill is not red pill...

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@Aibobot Since the info is now fully public, and you cited the (now no longer true) fact that info was not public as a reason for deleting this post, is there a chance you can undelete it?

Aibobot

8:18 AM

e.

No

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

@Aibobot Why not?

Aibobot

Cause it shouldn't have been posted to start with

Sonic the Reinstate Monica-hog

Why should I (as an answerer) be penalized simply because the author's intentions weren't great?

Aibobot

Cause you should have known better

A lot of people clearly don't so... erf

rene

@SmokeDetector also against the CoC ...

Basj

9:27 AM

Hello, when I see `Page not found
This question was removed from Meta Stack Exchange for reasons of moderation`, how much rep do I require to see it anyway?

IIRC 10k rep users can see deleted questions, is that right?

Tinkeringbell

@Basj meta.stackexchange.com/help/privileges/moderator-tools < Yep!

Hitodama

Morning|

Another happy day on Stack!

rene

9:48 AM

@Hitodama Happy Days ...

Basj

@Tinkeringbell with 10k rep, I can only see my own deleted content, is that right?

Tinkeringbell

@Basj Yes and no... If you have a link to a deleted question by someone else, you can still use that to find it. Otherwise, deleted:1 as a search operator will return all your deleted questions and answers, even the ones older than 60 days.

Basj

deleted:1 only shows mine, not other people's

Tinkeringbell

Yes.

That's correct.

Basj

Thanks.

If I only have 1k on meta, I can't see deleted posts on meta?

or do privileges to see deleted posts on meta use the SO rep (i.e. > 10k for me)?

Aibobot

9:58 AM

For per site meta, I think so

For this meta, no

Tinkeringbell

You can only see your own deleted posts that are under 'recently deleted questions/answers' in your profile page. Those are a max. of 60 days old.

Basj

@Tinkeringbell could you paste an URL of deleted question or answer on meta.SE, to see if I can see it?

Tinkeringbell

@Basj You can't if you have only 1k and it isn't your post.

Basj

@Tinkeringbell so on meta.SO, I can see all deleted posts (including by other people) if I have the URL

But on meta.SE I can't, is that right?

Tinkeringbell

Yes.

Basj

10:01 AM

Would you have an example of URL of deleted question on meta.SO?

Tinkeringbell

I don't, because I don't have any reputation on SO (just association bonus).

Erik Reinstate MonicA

this is the latest deleted question on MSO

rene

@Basj here is one: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/388628/…

oh

Tinkeringbell

^^ They do XD

Basj

Thanks

So meta.SE is a bit different: the only way to have 10k on meta.SE is by having upvotes on questions/answers on meta.SE?

Aibobot

10:05 AM

Yes

Basj

(on meta.SO it's different: you get rep from SO too)

Aibobot

MSE has no parent site

Basj

Ok

Raedwald

RO: do we still need a starred link to the Future room, given that the future is now here?

Tinkeringbell

@Raedwald nope :)

rene

10:08 AM

We should timeout that room until the next future event ...

Erik Reinstate MonicA

There are the rumored next changes based on the latest blog, guess we'll only have to wait for a new leak

rene

give it 6 to 8 days ...

Hitodama

@rene someone on Anime.SE could probably notice that the picture I posted was far from random...

rene

yeah, I lack any background on that.

And I'm known for missing the point most of the times

I don't want to disappoint y'all

Hitodama

@rene you lack the background but you can look at the background.

specifically, the background in the picture.

mag

10:19 AM

@ErikReinstateMonicA I guess this time mods won't get a heads up, to prevent the leak

Aibobot

@ErikReinstateMonicA assuming they tell us

Tinkeringbell

@mag Also if they're doing this stuff focusing on SO, doesn't make sense to let all of us know ;)

Erik Reinstate MonicA

That assumes a mod was doing the leaking. The top answer of the 10 -> 5 rep for questions was by Shog9. Suspicious

Zoe

xfiles noises intensify

Hitodama

@Zoe naaaaaaaaahhhhh.... we aren't like X Files at all.

Journeyman Geek

10:30 AM

@ErikReinstateMonicA let's not get into conspiracy theories. It was clearly Jimmy Hoffa

Hitodama

@Zoe more like We Happy Few.

Erik Reinstate MonicA

The starred SmokeDetector message supports my theory. SmokeDetector knew all along...

mag

Times like these make me melancholic about how much better SE would be if it was a community driven nonprofit

Meta Andrew T.

oh, wow, one of my message got starred... didn't expect that one...

Zoe

@Hitodama See, that's what the government wants you to think! :P

mag

10:32 AM

with community held board and executive elections

Zoe

@Hitodama You forgot the "un"

Hitodama

@Zoe well... the game is called We Happy Few to be fair....

Meta Andrew T.

Hope I happy you...

Hitodama

but you could be right, maybe all the Downers in the game came from Meta.

mag

> We didn't solicit feedback from the wider community on this change. We have a robust roadmap and we are selective in asking the community for feedback on specific releases.

Pretty clear cut description of the problem. They're not soliciting feedback because they know most of us will disagree. This is wrongheaded. SE can only govern the site with the consent of the community. Going this way will make it all backfire and hard.

Zoe

10:42 AM

Can't backfire if there's no users left when the changes are made

/shrug

mag

You pursue this strategy at your peril. The consent of the governed (the community) to governance is essentially for its efficacy. If you think that you can fight the community head on and win, SE may soon join the large cadre of companies that held such hubris and failed all the same. I'm sorry, but this whole attitude belies a catastrophic failure in management and vision. — mag 24 secs ago

The question is not if this will fail or not, the question is will they realise and pull back soon enough to prevent a collapse

Zoe

It is collapsing.

Meta Andrew T.

Jeff had done this kind of move. It has been collapsing since then.

mag

In the end, our efforts aren't wasted though

Zoe

I disagree

Meta Andrew T.

10:47 AM

and yet, people will always come and go

mag

the data is publicly available. So now it's just a matter of keeping quality and selectivity up enough until a competitor emerges or they correct course

Hitodama

I knew I needed to bring more popcorn today.... this is it quite funny. Here you are, discussing upvotes while we could probably find more use discussing a certain post that someone made yesterday.

Aibobot

@mag part of the difficulty is - well, SE had a specific trajectory that made it work

mag

the SE of today is not the SE we all joined and liked

Aibobot

The problem is, well, they've picked a few paths that haven't worked that well both for them and us

mag

10:48 AM

it is an ursurper and will not endure

at some point the investors will get the hint and take some action, the question is just if that point is soon enough to save the whole

Tinkeringbell

@mag I understand the investment and upset here... but is that language really necessary? :\

Aibobot

@mag and well I like to believe there's folks in SE who got why it worked

current... politics aside

mag

@Tinkeringbell not particularly, that was off the cuff

notwithstanding any implications. What I meant by that is that the current company has very few of the same people and ideals in it then it used to. And ultimately the board and investors pull the strings so this new phase of the company shall pass too

Aibobot

@mag practically though - I'm not sure a non profit could have gotten the seed money to do a lot of stuff SE did.

Tinkeringbell

This whole thing is hard. I can understand 'just making the change' as apparently reducing it was supposed to lead to better questions and it didn't... And if you'd ask 'the community' the opinions are going to be divided and the people that feel more comfortable asking questions might not write answers saying that they'd like to see more recognition.

Of course raising the reputation for asking a question might lead to more people gaining privileges, but is that so bad? I probably stuck around IPS *because* my first question was a hit, and suddenly I could do stuff and help out there...

2

Meta doesn't reach everyone either... so sometimes asking isn't really an option, and will only lead to more long, drawn out debates that slow down timelines. We've all been asking the company to do stuff quicker too...

user58

10:53 AM

The whole thing seems to have devolved into an argument about the importance of questions themselves.

Aibobot

@user58 well, folks are going to take anything badly that SE does until they win back some trust

Tinkeringbell

At some point that's going to mean they're going to look at what's there now, make their own decisions, and go ahead with that to see how it works out.

Aibobot

or just stop caring about the core community

And lets be honest here. Jeff would have just "done it"

Meta Andrew T.

@mag Funny, it reminds me of my company. Seniors hated the changes and left, new employees come, the company became more prospers now.

Aibobot

the mechanics are fairly arbitrary. THe people matter

user58

10:54 AM

Anyway, I've got a question on Puzzling that I've been working on for a week, so I'll go back to working on that for now...

mag

@Tinkeringbell the change at issue is completly irrelevant to the issue here

Aibobot

@mag the change isn't as important as... all the other things ._.

mag

I'm increasingly convinced the company and all of its senior management is on the wrong path in general. I have no illusions they'll self correct, and no illusions that their path may work. So the relevant interesting tidbit for me is when the investors will pull the plug and if it'll be soon enough to salvage this place or if the next competitor coming up will have to supplant it

none of that changes the fact that we get to take our stuff (the questions and answers) with us to the next step

Meta Andrew T.

I'll be honest, aside of Monica's dismissal and probably the relicensing, I'll believe the actions they take will be positive. It really feel weird that I'm no more pessimist than most of others...

Aibobot

@MetaAndrewT. I guess the big thing for me is still Monica's dismissal...

Meta Andrew T.

11:00 AM

when I'm usually the most negative person in the community.

Aibobot

and well the aftermath

Meta Andrew T.

I guess I'm already used to "there's no ideal world" thing :/

Tinkeringbell

@mag I'm not sure how to react to that. I'd like to convince you that a lot of the recent changes weren't 'a sign' that this is happening... Then again there has been stuff that's a mystery to me too, and while I don't think it's a sign of 'being on the wrong path', it's definitely frustrating.

user58

It's SE totally floundering as they try to move out of the"small company" zone into the larger playing field.

mag

@Tinkeringbell I didn't think it at first, but I don't think current management is right for the job or even interested in building a successful Q/A site at all

9

rene

11:07 AM

Q: Which of these community suggested features earned us money the last 6 to 8 years? A: None! , Okay, I guess we can do without this community input

mag

And calling for resignations never works anyways unless you use truly dirty tactics, so (I hope nobody goes that low anyways) we'll have to wait until the people management is responsible to realize that, and they will, because money follows the sentiment eventually.

Meta Andrew T.

But I want SO TV...

Aibobot

@rene eh, in their defence they've been working on polishing up mod tools a fair bit

rene

@Aibobot that is true

Aibobot

and its less about what they are doing a than what they are not

and why

rene

11:09 AM

@MetaAndrewT. yeah, that ...

mag

and the variable here is whether they'll catch on early enough that they can maintain SE as a platform or if they'll flounder further to be supplanted by the next thing. In any case I remain somewhat optimistic because all of our work is in public for free, so we get to take all our toys with us when/if SE self-destructs

Tinkeringbell

@user58 It's also a lot of the community reacting to that change, perhaps. A small company can have much closer relations with it's 'customers' than a big one has/can. A lot of the older users here are used to having a small us-knows-us mentality...

Aibobot

A lot of the folks who seem to talk to us are...

not really comfortable in doing so

A lot of the folks who seem to talk to us are...

not really comfortable in doing so

and they don't really get the mood of the community - and well I guess the broader internet, looking at how much... well, not niceness we attracted in an attempt to make SE a nicer place

user58

It's people doing their job as opposed to people working with a community they have a relation with.

Hitodama

@Aibobot I would confute that last phrase. I still question the purpose - the aim for appearance or substance is still not clear to me

Aibobot

11:12 AM

@Hitodama I am assuming incompetance over ill intent

Hitodama

@Aibobot I never mentioned ill intent.

Raedwald

On SO we often complain about the implicit entitled attitude of posters of low quality questions: they expect experts, on the Internet, to answer their question for free, but they don't feel they need to make an effort to provide a clear question. But the community sees no irony in behaving in an entitled way with SE: expecting SE to ask us what it should do, and getting outraged when SE makes decisions itself.

2

Hitodama

I am just asking if the need is to make this a better place or to cleanse our bad reputation in the eyes of people like April.

Tinkeringbell

@Raedwald Nicely phrased :)

@Hitodama First. Trust me.

Aibobot

@Hitodama I think April thinks she's making the world a better place too

user58

11:15 AM

Aaaaannnddd here we go again.

Hitodama

@Tinkeringbell sorry, Think. Right now I can't bring myself to.

user58

Maybe this particular topic is one we should avoid.

Raedwald

@user58 April or "entitled"?

Tinkeringbell

@Hitodama :(

mag

the trust me thing only lasts for 2 or 3 violations of said trust

fair or not mods are seen as closer to the company then users so they inherit some of that distrust

Hitodama

11:17 AM

the problem is that is not Tink that I would have to trust.

Journeyman Geek

@mag eh

Depends on the site

Tinkeringbell

Anyhow, this place could use some 'making better'. If that clears up some bad reputation, that's not bad... Of course there'll always be people that either a.) Don't trust this makes things better or b.) Find other ways to keep up their bad views. But 'making better' is the main goal of most of the stuff done here.

@Hitodama Can you get rid of that 'h'? I'm Tink or Tinkeringbell ;)

Hitodama

@Tinkeringbell yep, sorry... I don't know why I wrote it like that.

Unless you are slowly turning into Thinkingbell

user58

"Tin"

Tinkeringbell

No worries... My name is misspelled a lot. The only good use for that is that whenever people ping me in comments using @Tinkerbell, I can use that as an excuse to not answer ;)

@Hitodama I've spent a lot of time thinking lately... but I'll stick with my Tinkeringbell ;)

Hitodama

11:22 AM

@Aibobot If you assumed I have any grudge against April... you are wrong. Just mentioned the first public influencer that mentioned SE that I could think of.

Vogel612's Shadow

afaict she's not even that big...

Tinkeringbell

@mag Ouch! Part of my job description here is to disagree, not to be a mouthpiece!

Vogel612's Shadow

Kim Crayton semi-regularly talks about the mess that is SO as well

mag

@Tinkeringbell I say this with all due respect and affection, part of your job description is to disagree within the window of acceptability that stack exchange sets

Aibobot

@mag tbh, I pretty much speak my mind all the time

mag

11:24 AM

thats how it looks, anyways. And will keep looking like

Aibobot

maybe once or twice even to the point where someone goes "dude...."

terdon - stop harming Monica

@mag That may have been true a few years ago (although, I don't think so, personally) but it is absolutely not true now.

mag

@terdon-stopharmingMonica perception != reality, often

Tinkeringbell

Ah. Within makes more sense. Yes and no. Of course I don't get to be rude about stuff... but I do get to speak my mind if I have made it up and stick with that.

terdon - stop harming Monica

Don't forget, it was a mod who was targeted by the company and it is mods who are most at risk and who feel most afraid right now.

mag

11:25 AM

@Tinkeringbell Monica did that

where is she now?

terdon - stop harming Monica

Precisely.

Aibobot

@mag I also critisize and still do critisize SE a lot

Tinkeringbell

@mag Monica's case isn't that simple. Or I'd be gone too by now.

terdon - stop harming Monica

Although, to be fair, mods have been very critical of the company both in public and in private.

mag

obviously SE has ideological lines they don't tolerate criticism about, no matter how polite

6

Aibobot

11:25 AM

and I feel that the folks running the place need to do more

@mag If you're an ass to someone who is different, we will have words.

no matter where you stand.

mag

@Tinkeringbell view it from my position. I didn't read any of the TL leaks, nor the TL itself. I have no reason to take anyone but monica's word for it

Tinkeringbell

@mag I know. It's what makes this whole thing even more of a mess.

Even with what's in the TL, for some stuff, even I only have monica's word. It's not easy.

mag

And their refusal to correct that view means either what I think is true, or the reality is even worse

Hitodama

@mag the ones who did look at them.... didn't get a much clearer picture.

mag

I'm utterly done with giving SE the benefit of any doubt

I'm at a point where I assume the worst and wait to be proven correct

Tinkeringbell

11:31 AM

@mag You're not alone. Most things I see these days get the same feeling from me. If I see someone post a feature request, my mind now immediately jumps to all the things that can go wrong, instead of all the other benefits it might have too.

And wrongs seem to weigh much heavier on my mind lately.

Aibobot

Honestly

I think a whole load of us have something like.... well

Vogel612's Shadow

@mag you're allowed to argue the ideology, so long as you do it within the bounds of discourse acceptable under that ideology

Tinkeringbell

Yeah I would not call it that. Saw that once in action... this isn't even coming close.

Aibobot

but we've basically had so much stress the last few weeks we just think everything will go wrog

mag

If they want any kind of goodwill they'll have to achieve it against odds and assumptions

I'm unwilling to trust them on anything unless it's proven first. They get the same attitude from me as EA does now. I won't leave or stop contributing because I love the community, but the company represents poison in my mind and I'll view whatever they do in that lens.

Not that its fair but neither were they to monica or the community, and they've done absolutely nothing to mend that, so vis a vis.

terdon - stop harming Monica

11:35 AM

@Aibobot PTSE?

Hitodama

@Aibobot beware. An argument about similar things caused forest a lot of mess some time ago. I think you know what I am talking about ... it is better that we avoid even mentioning such comparisons

Aibobot

Yeah, and I realise its a really poor comparison

but generally a certain level of weariness

deleted

mag

we just have to go to the "prevail as a community despite SE" instead of with them as a mode. terdon's view from what I see is exactly right. Moderators should work for their communities and not SE, and hopefully we'll all make it through this period of inanity

djsmiley2k - CoW

y'all need SE to take you off to a retreat for a few weeks

just shutdown all the sites.

;D

mag

nobody could possibly pay me enough

Aibobot

11:39 AM

@djsmiley2k-CoW I have a bunch of other things too

Meta Andrew T.

This site has been frozen for 6-8 weeks.

Tinkeringbell

@djsmiley2k-CoW Oh please no... the only good thing here is that it's the internet and I don't need to worry about body language or cursing at the screen... Can't hide that if you're cooped up with everyone in a retreat.

Aibobot

lol

@Tinkeringbell I think he means...

not mod ;p

But honestly - I tried that

it was even more stressful

Tinkeringbell

Oh, so I'm safe from mandatory team building activities? Then it's good :D

terdon - stop harming Monica

@mag Yes. I am trying to figure out how I can distance myself from the company as much as possible and remain a mod to help the communities I love.

djsmiley2k - CoW

11:41 AM

@terdon-stopharmingMonica Do what you feel is right, not what SE instructs you is "right"

Meta Andrew T.

@djsmiley2k-CoW I have taken off a retreat from Meta and Tavern. It's the most refreshing thing I have done since I participate on SE

Aibobot

@terdon-stopharmingMonica isn't that hard

djsmiley2k - CoW

That's pretty much it.

mag

@terdon-stopharmingMonica I might run in an election again sometime

Aibobot

lots of mods don't really engage with the company or even the wider network

terdon - stop harming Monica

11:41 AM

@djsmiley2k-CoW Oh, that was never in question.

djsmiley2k - CoW

@Aibobot seems.... legit? ;/

Raedwald

@djsmiley2k-CoW They could shutdown the sites by returning an HTTP 420 status code.

djsmiley2k - CoW

I act with the voice of the king, but never actually speak to the king.

mag

if only to persist and continue helping out. I like this place, the people here, and the work we've all built together. The company doesn't get to take that from us.

Vogel612's Shadow

@djsmiley2k-CoW actually mods don't act with the voice of SE

terdon - stop harming Monica

11:42 AM

@Aibobot Yeah, but it's harder for multi-mods. If you mod >1 community, you're involved with the wider network by definition.

Vogel612's Shadow

they act with the voice of the community policies

Aibobot

We mostly act in the context of our own sites

@terdon-stopharmingMonica hmm, kinda

but even then

Vogel612's Shadow

that's why mods are elected and not appointed (in the overwhelming majority of cases for new mods)

Aibobot

In theory one of the reasons I'm active outside is the ability to influence and be listened to

Granted with the current management I'm probably not going to be heard that high up,

With the mod community

at the moment, I simply don't know either

mag

one important thing we have that they dont get to take is that the mods are our people. We choose them, and they act in our interest, not theirs

Aibobot

11:45 AM

The TL move was and has been interesting since least in theory we're vaguely first amongst equals (and hating it mostly) ;p

@mag and practically if sorting this out matters...

our ability, time and spoons are limited

Vogel612's Shadow

there honestly isn't such a thing as "the" mod community

Aibobot

we can keep things simmering at best, but we can't turn off the fire

Vogel612's Shadow

there's different, partially overlapping mod communities

Aibobot

@Vogel612'sShadow eh, probably but in terns of how the ones I interact with see me

Meta Andrew T.

see you? gone

djsmiley2k - CoW

11:48 AM

@mag wait a mo, isnt' that how politics is meant to work>?!

Vogel612's Shadow

@Aibobot it really isn't our job to turn off the fire. That's kinda beyond what even a highly trusted and competent mod can achieve

if things are burning, one mostly needs to calculate with a mob instead of a community

Aibobot

@Vogel612'sShadow well that's basically the thing with moderating meta right now

there's multiple angry mobs

and a few folks who just want to throw bricks into windows.

Or the folks who want to just keep insisting they're right and you NEED to listen to them

and...

the folks who see the chance to get a boot in

Meta Andrew T.

^ a reality test for becoming a future CM

Aibobot

But if we can't act, it just gets worse and worse

@MetaAndrewT. if they even hire more

and even then - they need to know they have the freedom to act and to communicate without too much upstairs interference

and well - we don't just need CMs - and the lot we have are a solid bunch

we also need community evangelism to a bigger extent

If you want to win over the community, you absolutely need to show you're willing to actually invest back into it

Make folks feel actually valued

curious

2:33 PM

→ 21 messages moved to Chimney

→ 1 message moved to Chimney

Feeds

3:03 PM

Why is the Migration to Python 3 Taking So Long?

Vicki Boykis on November 14, 2019

In Pycon in 2014, Guido van Rossum, the creator of Python and, at the time, the Benevolent Dictator For Life of the language, stood on stage in a shirt that had a large 2.8 written on it in block letters, with a big red no entry sign through it. “It’s time to move on to Python 3,” he said, telling the audience that they should start adopting the new version of the language into their workflows.

After many years of hard work towards that goal from the core committers, and surrounding community of libraries, Python 2 is finally at end of life. January 1, 2020, according to pythonclock.org, is the drop-dead date for support of Python 2. …

Cœur

3:28 PM

Hello. I don't have 10k rep yet, but to get a better grasp on the situation, may I ask what is the username of the one who posted this deleted question? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/337757/…

Vogel612's Shadow

@Cœur if that question is the one I think it is, that might be Robert Harvey's

there's a bunch of questions around that topic, though

rene

@Cœur from user by the name of Jo King.

Cœur

@Vogel612'sShadow I don't think so, Robert was suspended before that, if we compare the question id with meta.stackexchange.com/questions/336339/…

Vogel612's Shadow

@Cœur 1k posts in a week sounds like a lot for MSE, I'd say

then again ... I don't have 10k to see which question that was.

if it was the initial leaking of that change, then the username should be lost IIRC

Journeyman Geek

@Cœur the same thing was posted 3 or 4 times in different fashions. It showed an early, flawed and incomplete picture of what was coming

Based off what I presume was a leak by a disgruntled mod

@Vogel612'sShadow naw - the second last one

Cœur

3:50 PM

OK, and what happened to the leaker? Nothing? He/She got demodded? Or they were using a sockpuppet and the moderator's identity is still unknown?

Vogel612's Shadow

sockpuppet. not sure about everything else

djsmiley2k - CoW

heh

if sock puppet, SE has tools....

otherwise we'd never bad any spammers.

Cœur

@Vogel612'sShadow oh, you're right, I didn't notice it was a 7 days suspension only.

@djsmiley2k-CoW Tools can't do miracles if you use a different computer from a different internet provider.

I am Monica

4:14 PM

@djsmiley2k-CoW depends on how smart they were about it.

hmm meta.stackexchange.com/q/338281/159427

Bart

Why the "hmm"?

mag

@djsmiley2k-CoW It entirely depends how they went about it

there are ways to make finding a leaker in such scenarios pretty hard

djsmiley2k - CoW

@Cœur oh yah

but that tells you something about the leaker

they're at least semi-computer savvy

Enough to know to use a computer they've never logged in from?

Cœur

@IamMonica votes are +4 -10 ... so that's a net +20 reputation :D

3

djsmiley2k - CoW

So a mod, who's never active at work

I am Monica

4:25 PM

@Bart I guess I like the distinction between answer/question trust. I just doubt that, even if it had broad support, Q&A would see such a drastic overhaul.

@Cœur devaluing those downvotes, though...

Bart

@IamMonica It's all a bit reactionary to me anyway. It goes from an implemented change to outrage because "we were not heard", to "this is going to be a catastrophe", to "let's split the reputations!". How about we all just calm down, see how it works out, and take it from there?

3

djsmiley2k - CoW

NO TIME FOR BEING CALM ARRRRRRRRRRRRR

hmmm that made me sound like a Pirate.

I am Monica

@Bart Do I sound excited?

Bart

@IamMonica No, not aimed at you at all. Just at the site as a whole.

djsmiley2k - CoW

this all points to my suspicion. Hiding the numbers.

After all, bob now hates alice because her number is bigger!

Bart

4:29 PM

Size of your number doesn't matter. It's how you use it ... or something.

I am Monica

@djsmiley2k-CoW is that a gender inequality-remediation joke?

djsmiley2k - CoW

@IamMonica ffs. no.

I am Monica

@djsmiley2k-CoW lol, I know.

djsmiley2k - CoW

yah but... others ¬_¬

Cœur

4:48 PM

🙃Upcoming blog: "We've Removed Meta and Chat to Help our Community Focus on Q&A"

7

I am Monica

@Bart I don't understand how anyone has the energy left for outrage. I'm pretty sure SE staff have been encouraged to ignore meta for a long time, with the recent events simply serving to anneal that policy. "Put it on the blog."

Hitodama

on an unrelated notice I would love to point out that there is no link or direct connection to fundraisers in a picture of graves, it still means sadness to see a site turned to the pale husk of what it was.

John Dvorak

@Bart Why not do both? Predict publicly it'll be a complete disaster, and then pop open a beer and calmly watch said disaster unfold?

@Cœur now this would actually be a disaster

SOCVR. Charcoal. Nuff said.

Kevin B

meh

noone would be around to point out that it's a disaster, so would it be one?

John Dvorak

As soon as the Korean spammers notice... yep

Raedwald

4:56 PM

I entirely fail to understand the thought processes of someone who protests that SE will remove links to funding campaigns aimed against SE. Do they seriously expect SE to pay for hosting those?

Kevin B

i don't think that'd be any bigger of a problem without socvr/charcoal

so what if spam gets a few more eyes

it's not gonna reduce traffic

Cœur

@JohnDvorak Could be still done from IRC or Slack.

John Dvorak

Chance of it happening: 0

Hitodama

question of the day: do anyone realized that the announcement will mean now users will use url shortness and homoglyps for their links?

see you tomorrow, I guess.

Bart

@Raedwald they hold on to what has been a pretty permissive attitude from SO/SE in the past regarding profiles. But it's indeed not very sensible nor realistic.

Zoe

5:01 PM

@Cœur Which would require re-writing the code for SD

Might not take long, but it's long enough

Cœur

5:18 PM

Good night Tavern.

Bart

Night!

Tinkeringbell

Sleep well!

rene

Disco Inferno on the radio while reading meta ...

Tinkeringbell

Hmm. How about I see fire?

Vogel612's Shadow

5:33 PM

@Tinkeringbell much too calm.

Through the fire and the flames?

Tinkeringbell

@Vogel612'sShadow nice and gloomy though

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

@Raedwald people protest because they are reasonably still angry that SE did something very bad. They can (obviously) remove the links. We can protest. Both of those are reasonable responses.

Mgetz

@rene I remember getting on US666 as "Highway to Hell" from AC/DC came on the radio

rene

:D

Mgetz

Yeah we all busted up laughing

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

5:45 PM

I for one, think ongoing pressure is the right thing to do here. I do understand it, but am disappointed in users and moderators who showed support for a time, but are now bored and tired of the protest and actively support the ongoing harm SE is responsible for. However you feel about Monica, what they did was wrong and they should fix it.

6

Tinkeringbell

@DeNovosupportsGoFundMonica I'd be fine if it was just ongoing pressure. But I've seen people say harassment and rudeness are their ways of doing 'pressure'. That's never okay.

5

It only creates more work and animosity.

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

@Tinkeringbell I would agree with that. Ongoing pressure shouldn't involve harassment. Rudeness is something I've seen be interpreted quite differently depending on how allied one is with the other persons viewpoint. And many power users have closed meta discussions because they are "protest" posts. I would encourage everyone to apply the rules, objectively.

Tinkeringbell

@DeNovosupportsGoFundMonica Rudeness is rudeness. You can be disagreeing with someone's viewpoint, but if that viewpoint isn't expressed in a rude manner, it's not rude. Unless the 'viewpoint' itself is 'alienating people based on...': then it's against the CoC and would also have been running afoul of the old 'Be Nice'.

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

@Tinkeringbell rudeness is not objective. From my cultural perspective, you were very rude to @SonictheReinstateMonica-hog a few days back. From yours, you were being direct.

I see many moderators and power users saying things that obviously are sarcastic and "not nice" to other users. I don't flag them, because I have been taught that they will be declined.

Tinkeringbell

@DeNovosupportsGoFundMonica Like I said, you can be disagreeing with someone's viewpoint but if that viewpoint isn't expressed in a rude manner, it's not rude.

@DeNovosupportsGoFundMonica Oh, rest assured there wasn't a grain of sarcasm in those messages. I've interacted with certain users before, and sometimes they don't react at all to flowery language. It's like having a conversation but never being able to get to the point because the person you're talking with keeps addressing all sort of sidelines, just to keep you busy.

De Novo supports GoFundMonica

5:58 PM

@Tinkeringbell your chat with @SonictheReinstateMonica-hog was not what I was referring to as sarcastic.

Tinkeringbell

But I agree that sometimes, it's hard. I can tease people I know better, and it'll look weird/rude to an outsider... then again I'm not the kind of person to edit in disclaimers everywhere like 'I can say that I don't like @Bart for getting more stars than me, I know Bart doesn't mind'

Transcript for