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00:00 - 21:0021:00 - 00:00

12:01 AM
@Undo Driving more lately?
The other day, I was doing 70 and getting tailgated... while the speed limit was 55. People are silly.
12:30 AM
Uhm, we have an eggdrop...
2 hours later…
2:38 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog meta.SE probably isn't an API key
@thesecretmaster nah, just crazier roads/drivers than normal around July 4
I have nothing against California (mostly), but it does seem like the more Californians move to our state the crazier roads get. I've personally observed way more silly accidents in the last few years, and it correlates really well with Californian immigration.
also kinda makes sense - you have to drive crazy in some parts of CA, then you move here and it doesn't mix well with the people who aren't used to it.
3:26 AM
@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog AFAIK, you should use the site URL, like meta.stackexchange.com
Oh, and (probably) morning
3 hours later…
6:23 AM
@Undo and ending up turning the other way. Too common.... o_O
BIRT meta.stackexchange.com/questions/311961/… @Bart @Birt @rene @JourneymanGeek @Glorfindel
while you're here another one to delete: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/311965/…
wrong call
spam flag that
Risky move, I would think
*i would
@JohnDvorak for who?
that's just dumb-clever enough for a spammer to do
For the flagger. Your correction is incorrect, BTW.
migrate to Spam Overflow instead, where spammer can help other spammer fixing their sites
7:04 AM
Q: We need to improve the quality of our spam!

UndoRecently, I've noticed a downhill effect in the quality of spam posted on Stack Exchange websites. Take this as an example (found on Space.SE): There are a great many things wrong with this artifact: There is not one capitalized letter in the entire post. (-1 grammar point.) The only pun...

@JourneymanGeek hehe, usually I'm the one claiming stuff is spam when it's not surely spam. :)
meh, looks like spam to me ;p
Was your flag marked helpful?
Maybe I'm rusty
I don't really keep track
apparently yes
@JourneymanGeek nah, that's Rusty
7:24 AM
Lots of OT stuff today
7:35 AM
nah, the usual.
If anything, yesterday there was less than usual due to weekend.
(daily usual that is)
1 hour later…
9:03 AM
weekends are the quiet times on SE
1 hour later…
11:09 AM
I guess I finally put my finger on what irks me about the welcoming debate so much. It's the asymmetry of effort
rude and offensive in the last paragraph ^^
@ShadowWizard Probably not a good thing for smokey to get involved in
the FIRE dialog overflows my browser window when showing this post :-(
@Magisch dunno... I flagged as rude.
flag as r/a as you must, but it's not blatantly r/a or gibberish that smokey usually detects
11:11 AM
So Smokey shouldn't handle manually discovered rude answers?
I believe the threshold for a tp on smokey's side is "If we implement this as a system level block, should that be caught?"
oh well
I see this as context dependant rude, that is, still rude but not in a way we could usefully formulate a regex for
Take this with a grain of salt btw, I'm not an admin of charcoal
but should it be caught, irrespective if it can be caught?
I'm unsure if that's an useful distinction
11:14 AM
It may not be discoverable with a regex, but who knows if one day one of us might dabble into NLP ANNs
I'm also not sure if it's deserving of a full on redflag nuke
@ShadowWizard That's opinion, which last I checked was valid on meta. Even if in-eloquently expressed.
Like yes, the user is clearly being rude, but maybe naadelete would serve a better purpose then the big red ip banhammer
That is a question I have, too
I wouldn't flag
Downvoted, though
@Magisch well it's rude enough for me.
Cursing mods is rude, no matter how you look at it.
If I'll call anyone "snob" I'd expect to be flagged as well.
11:23 AM
I edited the insults out
the rest of it is still an (opinionated) answer to the question
We don't edit spam out, we should not edit direct insults either.
It's not a mistake, it's on purpose in order to harm and insult.
I downvoted that answer (because I disagree with it) but I don't feel a redflag was necessary if I can salvage the post without destroying it
author rolling back in 3... 2.... 1.... (or in case not aware they can rollback, post comment or edit like "how dare you edit me? I'm out!")
11:24 AM
spam is unique in that sense because it's just spam and there's nothing to be salvaged. Editing out links from something which is fundamentally spam is thus pointless
@Magisch I see your point, but disagree with it.
If you were @rene I'd now give icecream. ;)
@ShadowWizard cross that bridge when we come to it
cacti also like icecream
So it's now official! We agree to disagree. :D
Wonder if @rene will be jealous that he's not alone anymore.
@ShadowWizard cactus ice cream is tasty
full of flavor
11:30 AM
it's green
@Mgetz still the only ex-goat-now-flower here.
that said it sounds like you're emotionally involved in this @ShadowWizard, it might be worth stepping away and letting a CM deal with it.
@Derpy eh.. goats will eat just about anything unless I'm misinterpreting you
@Mgetz sure, already did, I won't do any further actions there.
@Mgetz here
And my comment was as polite as I could write.
11:33 AM
> I believe it will make the rest of the community more open and beginners more willing to participate if questions that boil down to syntax errors that OP's lack the experience to identify aren't panned or down-voted.
welp, can't agree with that
unless OP is writing in Whitespace
Is there programming language called "overflow"?
@SomewhatMemorableName Me neither. I think this'll ultimately cause experts to quit (because then maybe 1 in 10 unclosed questions will have a mild chance of being possibly not a complete waste of their expertise) and that'll result in fewer good answers for the new users this claims to serve
loss all around
@SomewhatMemorableName knowing it's a syntax error is a start
In the category of things to add to the How not to launch an orbital booster
11:48 AM
They didn't test is in Kerbal???
@SomewhatMemorableName so fun thing... the russians designed proton much like kerbal
they were kerbal before kerbal
12:33 PM
Interesting conundrum
Is a post by tim post tim's post or tim post's post?
Not all that is Tim is also Post.
@peterh How would you distinguish a user that cares enough to learn and become productive on the network from one who couldn't care less if he was being paid to do so?
@Magisch I just sent through the post Tim Post's Tim Post post.
And how do you justify the vastly increased volunteer effort to attempt to teach everyone with the latter outnumbering the former like 30:1?
This is the asymmetry of effort that just can't scale on a network like this. If we expect volunteers to put in more effort per user in an attempt to teach them, then the amount of new users has to be reduced drastically in relation to volunteers or the volunteers will just ... y'know ... stop
@Magisch It's like most these schemes - 'someone else will do extra work'. Extra time spent on reviewing comments for 'niceness', extra effort teaching 'Computers 101' without a teachers' salary or training. Not a problem - 'someone else' will do the work for free:(
12:40 PM
@MartinJames Some people need to read Atlas Shrugged.
The intent to help is there ... but the time isn't
@Mithrandir You will pay me to read it? :)
@MartinJames No. I haven't actually finished it yet... I'm 750 pages in.
Another 300 to go.
If you have 900 new questions by people who need to be made to understand in some fashion that they need to spend more effort to make it answerable ... and 800 of those won't care for suggestions because they're 10 minutes before homework handin and have no time or care left, then asking volunteers to even spend an extra comment or two explaining things better already doesn't scale.
the curt and short comments (or no comments and just votes) are borne of pure necessity
@Mithrandir Oh.. umm..never mind, I'll go back to shorter fantasy and SF.
12:42 PM
snark is another topic entirely but there is a lot more to being welcoming then not being intentionally snarky
@Magisch to be fair, I was far more "put off" by some of the recent "cruise route revisions" the network made...
@Derpy Not gonna lie, it feels a bit like trying to effect social change by fiat
for instance stuff like this: stackoverflow.com/questions/51134913/…
nope, I was referencing other types of changes. Like YAYToS!, IlluminatiStaffMemberResignments, BeNice$ells and so on. Lately the network feels odd and unhappy.
How do you properly communicate what OP needs to do in a nice way with a comment? My instinct is to downvote / cv and move on
@Magisch turd polished.
feeling dirty
@Magisch with the new policy? We can't. In the past we could ask "what have you tried", but it's not very nice hence forbidden.
12:56 PM
@ShadowWizard Since you spent the time, I also spent some. Here's a decent duplicate: stackoverflow.com/questions/9521434/…
OP will just have to wonder about downvotes.
I already VTC'd as too broad so I can't vtc dupe
But of course in OP's example the table design is incomplete or flawed anyways - not accounting for the same job running multiple times.
hehe, vote caused it to close as unclear, at least auto comment is still there.
or on multiple days
@Magisch I would probably done the same, not wanting to spend more time on dupe-searching than the OP did on writing the question, (never mind trying to write software to implement the requirement).
1:00 PM
I'm pretty sure you could hammer this out in 20 minutes or so
maybe less if you didn't care too much about edge cases
Genuine question though, is this close reason too harsh? If so, which generic close reason would be appropriate?
> I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because in order for us to help you with your issue, you need to provide some indication of what you have tried to solve the issue, and where you're struggling. Stack Overflow is not a code writing service.
@Magisch IMO yeah, it's against the new code of conduct to come.
Which generic close reason would be appropriate for code writing requests?
"too broad?"
none, that's the problem.
I'll try and write up a nicer one then
Doubt it's possible... good luck anyway!
1:20 PM
> Thank you for reviewing 40 close votes today; come back in 10 hours to continue reviewing.
trying to make this a habit again
1:53 PM
@Magisch There should be a room for that. Help people close stuff. That would be cool
@Magisch You can't. So, we should give all possible support to them in the beginning. Not closing their questions, not voting down, and so on.
@Magisch I think the best would be if the first 3 posts of users would get some "extra protection", i.e. they wouldn't be allowed to be deleted or downvoted, and exclusively positive toned comments were allowed below them. Even if they are crap. Simply the site loses more with the hostility expelling newbies.
@peterh How do you imagine that would happen?
Any nonstandard handling of posts would soak up more expert time, that doesn't scale.
@peterh That would turn the site into a yahoo answers style wasteland in a few weeks, if not days.
Imo we need more downvotes, more closevotes and more delete votes. And some way to make more new users read and follow guidance before posting. The issue of snark is in my opinion in large part due to the uneceasing avalanche of crap that volunteers are subject to, which only grows.
iirc the feelings and actual disposition of the question author themselves is just a distant third or fourth on the priority list when determining what to do with a post, with the first being "Is this/can this be made into good Q/A" and the second "Is this likely helpful to future visitors" and then maybe "Is this interesting and/or likely to encourage our experts to answer"
oh, joy, when someone chooses to use autofixture to create mock data for their tests cases... and almost every entity they use contains a circular reference
2:09 PM
Put another way, how could new users that get discouraged by mild snark and correct application of the existing documented rules become productive contributors when we expect contributors to both tolerate snark and insults from new users and to fulfill the syssiphean task of correcting question quality? It seems to me like you'd just be setting up the new users for delayed disappointment in this case. Their first 3 posts getting new user protection wouldn't prevent their 4th through 10th post
from getting slammed until they run into a post ban, either. If the expectations are poorly communicated no amount of sugarcoating can prevent the oncoming expectation vs reality clash.
@peterh not deleted? not even flagged for spam?
@Magisch Well, with burner accounts, what happens after the first post is irrelevant:(
'Special' help cannot be given to new users, because it is not reliably possible to identify new users. PHP will turn into the best language ever before I am obliged to give any special treatment to a set of users dominated by spammers, trolls, deadbeats, vampires, h/w dumpers, ring-voters, puppets, 'teach me basic syntax' etc.
also, let's say we have a new user troll posting on SE, and they'll always get immunity for their first 3 posts?
even better, we know we can't determine newness by ip address, since many users share these legitimately. Now, what stops a person who is determined to not adhere to quality standards from making a new account every 3 questions?
If you expect bad and unfixable questions to get anything but the most expedient treatment in any special circumstance then people are going to abuse the absolute hell out of that. They already do without any extra incentives just to get around the negative quality blocks.
Honestly, we don't need any those newbies who don't want to learn
2:22 PM
Also, if I'm a new user, and my first three posts all get really nice and helpful treatment, upvotes etc and people make heroic efforts to fix them, then i'll expect that going forward
And going to be even more sorely disappointed when "Normal" treatment kicks in. "But I was doing so well! surely the downvoters are at fault, my first three questions were just like this and everyone was so helpful"
at the cost of be a little too direct, I fear this clip from Gumball is somehow summarizing how a lot of users have interpreted this "be nice" thing (and... probably not just the users).
... or let's make an FR to implement the real Unicoin... and immunity from downvote
@MartinJames As I previously argued at stackoverflow.com/q/33726153/1709587, PHP is already the best language.
It sounds good to allow lenient treatment to new ACCOUNTS, stop downvoting and only allow 'extra nice' comments but...... who is going to do the commenting? It won't be me, and I doubt if Magisch etc. will bother either. It will fall to the exisitng newer users who have some skills and time to volunteer - the 'good' new users. After a month of answering the same 'Computer 101' questions, they will just give up too, and then only the garbage will be left:(
@MarkAmery lol, yes, Imma totally converted:)
2:46 PM
By the way, since comment civility still seems to be the topic du jour here, my 4-comment mini-rant at meta.stackexchange.com/questions/311737/… might be interesting reading for some of the pro-welcoming folks here who think my take about "diametrically opposite standards of what polite criticism looks like" is nonsense or is just apologia for rudeness.
@Magisch IMHO that would kill the site, because it would cut the resupply of users.
@Magisch I think the real problem is the lack of the reviewer resource
@Magisch But it could be helped easily by AI.
@Magisch Like Andys bot did with its comment flags. The same could run also by the SE
@Magisch I would object to this not on the basis of tone but because I think it's not a valid reason for closure. IMO showing "what you've tried" is basically never what a question really needs; the only case where it helps to narrow a question is when "what you've tried" turns out to be a nearly-working solution with one small issue to fix... in which case the question should've been an MCVE illustrating that one small issue in the first place
@Magisch But, instead using AI to kill posts, the AI should be used to 1) fix posts 2) focus the few reviewer resources to the cases, where it might most profit to the SE.
3:09 PM
@MarkAmery In the case in point it was just a requirements dump
Imo a valid question if the OP had tried and gotten stuck somewhere
If the OP got stuck somewhere due to some error or unexpected behaviour, constructed a minimal example showing that error or behaviour, and asked how to fix it, that would be valid
But simply throwing a broken attempt on top of a requirements dump doesn't improve it, and will probably make it worse
since then there are implicitly two questions: 1) write me a solution to this requirements dump and/or 2) fix all my broken code
3:40 PM
I can't help but wonder why YouTube added a dedicated video upload button. It's almost as if they wanted more videos from one-off uploaders that don't even stand a chance to reach the point they'll get an ad slapped onto their video and YouTube gains the ability to grab money off of it.
i mean... if they make it easy, sure, they'll get more sand, but, they just may also get more pearls. If the cost of sand is low enough (space/bandwidth) it becomes more than worth it even if the majority of the uploads it causes never make YT any $$
They'll also get more how-to-kill-people tutorials
Point taken though
@MarkAmery depends on the quality of the attempt
I choose to not believe that OP is entirely clueless in this case
The problem is with more sand the pearl oysters might decide they want a less sandy place. Especially less irregular sand that contains heavy metals
4:21 PM
5:00 PM
@Feeds insert Half-Life 3 jokes here
1 hour later…
6:07 PM
What are sites with stock theme?
Most of them
Means sites with design?
7:11 PM
Hah, someone upvoted one of my few meta.SE posts. Quick, my lovelies... balance that out with some downvotes.
I still maintain that it's stupid
meta.SE presides over all sites
You're obviously not alone :3
i can't change my vote
i have a feature request up that would... make it not a problem
@KevinB You forgot the catface ;)
7:14 PM
I thought that was a zoidberg face
@KevinB link for the clickity?
to the featurerequest?
A: What privilege should 30k users get?

Kevin BTrusted on meta.stackexchange.com +1000 rep on meta.stackexhange.com Users who have 30k+ reputation on a particular site surely know enough about the stackoverflow system to fully participate on meta.stackexhange.com, why not carry over some of their rep, say, 1k over to meta.stackexchange.com?...

i have enough rep now that it isn't an issue
Also, I was reviewing comments to audit my own toxicity and came across this on a now deleted post.
I seem to recall that combative tone resulting from an extended argument... perhaps across other posts
and now my comment appears slightly out of context
well, at least the vitriol...
7:25 PM
vitriol is a much worse drink compared to blue orange liquor.
Both colored nicely tho :3
Be nice.™ => meh™
7:57 PM
@KevinB Association bonus feels weird too. Curious why meta.SE doesn't just pool your rep, network-wide (sans association bonuses) or use your highest site-specific rep, and lock it, ala site-specific meta...
Well, maybe there should be a Meta-MSE where you can't loose rep for posting :3
maybe it should just redirect to mso
at this point, if something affects SO at all
I'll post on MSO rather than MSE
regardless of whether or not it's broadly applicable to the network
for precisely this reason
if someone wants to hoist it up another level, they're welcome to
8:37 PM
@canon I don't believe it's actually a good idea to let anyone post at MSE regardless of rep gaining or loosing. Any user already can post here without any restriction, and gaining or loosing privileges is a completely different kettle of fish.
I already discussed that stuff with a person I am ignoring now.
well, it's not just posting
@canon That's done on SE chat.
but participating in discussions over there
for decisions that will affect SO
Over where? Chat?
8:39 PM
You can always participate at MSE
not everything that affects SO is done on MSO
sometimes it's done on MSE because it's network-wide
@πάνταῥεῖ that's not true. You can't downvote without rep... and MSE has its own rep system.
MSO related stuff needs to go to MSO
"and MSE has its own rep system." And that's good so.
@πάνταῥεῖ not if it's a feature that would affect more sites than just SO
@canon You can downvote as a totally new user with the association bonus, provided you yourself haven't been downvoted.
so, if all your rep is in SO, and the discussion affecting SO is on MSE, you can't downvote anything... or you have an extremely limited pool from which to express dissent.
8:41 PM
@canon And that's good so
How is that good?
How it isn't?
it's great for those who have the rep to participate
the rest just get left out
I didn't find these within my daily cereal box :3
8:43 PM
@KevinB exactly.
And it's silly that established users on sub-sites can't participate in meta-voting which affects their sub-site because they haven't built up the meta-rep to be able to vote, "I disagree."
They can however ask questions and leave answers
A: Change rep required to downvote on MSE

Shog9As of right now, this is done: the "vote down" privilege is awarded at 100 reputation here on Meta Stack Exchange. This should allow folks with the association bonus - or those who earn 100 reputation by participation here - to downvote questions as much as they wish (particularly important for...

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog Cool, did they remove the downvote penalty?
You can cast 1 vote
8:45 PM
Which "cost"?
or, 2
because at 100 you still have the privilege
Then my point still stands.
that change helped, but it doesn't solve the problem.
8:46 PM
To gain privilege at Meta SE to participate more, you have to contribute as anywhere else in 1st place. Otherwise you're not really trusted to leave DVs or CVs.
well, except other metas, where you're free to do so if you're trusted on the site said meta is connected to
Jun 25 at 21:11, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Anyhow...both me and the kickstarter of the inclusion project happen to hail from the same city, so I hope we can meet together. We have a lot of things to talk about and a lot of ideas to come up with. Someday, we can go public, and talk about our concerns publicly, and people will listen to us without shooting us down. But that last part's just a fantasy.
I don't see what's the problem at all.
@πάνταῥεῖ That much is painfully obvious.
8:50 PM
Trusted at specific sites doesn't automatically mean trusted at MSE (thus network wide). That's just fine for me.
it should for SO
everything inherits from SO
the point of MSE is to function as the meta for the network
@canon That's fortunately wrong. Otherwise I wouldn't have been able to participate over the recent year.
as MSO does for SO
@πάνταῥεῖ the entire network was built on SO
and yes, MSE is still very much an awkward MSO
as much as they try to divest it from its roots
8:54 PM
@jon @shog Sry, would you mind to clarify that plz!
"MSE is still very much an awkward MSO"
that seems like sort of a subjective assertion
sure is
I guess, in a certain sense, Seasoned Advice is still very much an awkward Stack Overflow
while in many other senses, is not
8:56 PM
subjective, flippant hyperbole is the pocket in which I operate
Lemme try on my own: Meta German Language is different from Meta Stack Overflow. There are different site policies applied. Meta Stack Exchange is for network wide concerns, and also has different policies.
@shog9 the core of the argument is this: I say it feels bad (#jhanlon) when you don't have the power to downvote (with impunity) discussion points or feature requests on MSE when they directly impact a site upon which you're already trusted.
Jun 26 at 6:45, by Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog
Has there ever been a time where a local mod has wheel-warred with an SE employee?
@canon why don't you?
also, what's a discussion point?
@Shog9 A question tagged as discussion or an answer to it.
8:59 PM
so, downvotes on questions cost nothing on MSE, just as everywhere else
Wait... what did I miss? Damn vacation...
downvote as many of 'em as you want
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