Tavern on the Meta - 2018-06-01

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Journeyman Geek

2:30 AM

morning

2:49 AM

evening

3 hours later…

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

5:39 AM

@SmokeDetector tpu-

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

6:30 AM

@SmokeDetector naa-

2 hours later…

8:14 AM

ugh...

8:24 AM

@hey candy-colored-ponies != generic-lame-brown-horses

Anurag Baundwal

8:55 AM

Should we delete the downvote button? <br>

The downvote button should be deleted because it gives users a way to say that a post is bad without actually providing an explanation as to why the post is bad. This is probably why popular websites like Facebook and YouTube do not have the downvote button -- they know that it discourages good discussion and promotes hate and trolling. <br>

Therefore, I vote to either: <br>

1. remove the downvote button completely <br>
2. or make it compulsory to add a comment when downvoting

What?

@AnuragBaundwal ignore the SmokeDetector, it is just an automated "bad posts" reporting service

Anurag Baundwal

Oh ok.

@AnuragBaundwal also, sorry to have to rain on your parade, but #2 has already been discussed multiple time, with the general consent that downvotes don't even have to be motivated in the first place. Basically, a lot of users like to claim that they are entitled to vote whatever way they want. Including downvoting to vent out anger or because they didn't like your avatar.

Anurag Baundwal

@Derpy If most people thought that downvotes are bad then when didn't #2 get implemented? Because of the majority that thought they are entitled to downvote?

@AnuragBaundwal 1. status-declined on MSE 2. FAQ on MSO

πάντα ῥεῖ

9:06 AM

@AnuragBaundwal There's no such goal "good discussion" at Stack Exchange sites.

@AnuragBaundwal this is the original source for "suggesting comments on downvotes"

976

Q: Encouraging people to explain downvotes

I used to get "upset" (though that is too strong a term) when I got downvoted without comment. If my answer isn't good enough then I'd like to know why. Not only does it improve the answer for the OP but it improves my knowledge too. Where the down-vote has been explained I've found it useful & ...

feature-request status-completed voting down-votes comments

as you see, great reception. But as you also can see, it only request for "Encouraging" people, not forcing them.

every following attempt to force people into comments has been covered in flames and downvotes.

Exhibit 1:

-20

Q: Mandatory comment after downvote

I am not sure if this comment about a suggestion on stackoverflow should be written here, but I do think so. I would recommend, if this is possible, when downvoting a question, to be mandatory for the downvoter, to write the reason why he/she downvoted. I think this should be much more helpful ...

discussion feature-request down-votes

Exhibit 2:

-22

Q: What is the logic of downvoting a question without a comment?

According to my idea, downvoting without a comment is not helpful neither for the user nor the community. Do you see any constructive feedback by just downvoting? Just downvoting would not let the user to improve. What do you think if we make a comment mandatory if we downvote for a question, b...

feature-request comments down-votes

and so on....

The recurring arguments people seems to make against FORCED comments are - as far as I can see - the following:

a) comments make it easy to fall victim of revenge downvotes

b) "it is my time, just be glad I took time to vote"

c) "I am not here to help you"

d) "-1 because haoihfaowihoawhfu"

I have stopped fighting that specific foe long ago. I suggest you do the same.

Anurag Baundwal

a) Anonymous comments
b) That's just a person with a big ego
c) If they can't help, they shouldn't troll, either.
d) Lol what can I say

To me, the answer is very clear... It is easy to point the finger and say "that's bad".... saying why is somehow harder.

Anurag Baundwal

9:14 AM

Who makes these rules anyway, the moderators?

@AnuragBaundwal a) was already suggested, too

πάντα ῥεῖ

The community sets up the rules (and SE)

Anurag Baundwal

Nevermind. I guess I'd rather take -2 rep. than have to argue with thousands of people lol.

Those who have trying to moderate posts on SO will feel that commenting for every downvote is a pain in the <any body part>

(possibly "fingers")

Journeyman Geek

9:34 AM

@AnuragBaundwal or spend a little time actually working out what works

The SE system's kinda broadly just been around since the beginning of the site, and kinda refined over time by the CMs, and Devs with community input.

Also, many folk won't downvote answers cause they fear the -1 they lose for Dving answers

question DVs are free (and the site(s) rely on quality questions to stay healthy)

9:48 AM

I'm happy with commenting on my downvotes to bad questions except for a couple little points: a) How do I bill the OP for the time? and b) How can I insure myself against undeserved R/A flags and copypasta of my comment to blogs/tatter? One those points are settled, I can start commenting.

..otherwise, I'm happy donating one downvote click to a bad question without charge.

@MartinJames a) in the same way you bill him for the downvote time. Because I would assume one already spent readingTime>>commentingTime to read and understand the post. b) see revenge downvotes and the such. Yep, I somehow agree on this one.

The next one that meta's about enforcing comments on downvotes gets flagged as R/A for attempting to control my volunteered time. Who are those posters that they think they can make me waste time on bad posts in order to band-aid over the fact that they didn't read, or didn't care to follow, the rules/policy/tour/help etc?

@Derpy Well, many questions can be downvoted from the title. Only a very brief skim is then needed of the question body to be sure and to decide whether to close vote as well.

Title: how do turn this on

10:06 AM

@MartinJames If that is "reductio ad ridiculum".... pretty bad example. If that is your real belief... Here is an answer that should clear up what people are arguing about.

7

A: Encouraging people to explain downvotes

It seems to me that this site has become more about downvoters than the knowledge itself. The three most common reasons to "why we should not force comment on downvote" is: Let's protect the downvoter from "revenge downvoting" Let's protect the downvoter from meaningless argument It would poll...

Can faq-proposed have Return to FAQ index in it?

@NogShine umm, no? Because it's not yet FAQ?

somewhere somewhere there is one post where I make the same remarks, but this is probably somehow more readable.

57

Q: One post with multiple questions or multiple posts?

I want to ask several questions about the same problem domain but each question is independent from the others. Should I put all the questions in a single post or should I split them and send multiple posts? Return to FAQ index

support questions asking-questions faq-proposed multiple-questions

Apparently, I was wrong. It's instructed to add "Return to FAQ" to become eligible for FAQ...

10:11 AM

There was an edit by someone with a gold badge where they remove "return to faq" from faq proposed

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

10:31 AM

cv-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/310773/…

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SonictheInclusiveHedgehog e_e

sd tpu-

1 hour later…

11:57 AM

@ShadowWizard I'll curl up below my table and cry myself to sleep. So pretty much what I do every evening already.

πάντα ῥεῖ

LOL

12:44 PM

@Bart sounds good. Can I join?

Sure, plenty of space

πάντα ῥεῖ

How much exactly? I'm considering to join as well.

Good. How big is your table?

You'll be in the middle, @πάνταῥεῖ

user image

O_o

I blame @Jason in that! :D

πάντα ῥεῖ

:6994377

user image

Somewhat Memorable Name

hi

πάντα ῥεῖ

12:55 PM

hi

@πάνταῥεῖ better than 50CCs

1:48 PM

miligram-seconds?

@SomewhatMemorableName hey!

Somewhat Memorable Name

someone called me twice?

(am I able to continue Norm's legacy of being a SE news messenger?)

Maths.SE is proposing a... complex way to triage posts from new users: Proposal: Onboarding process

2:17 PM

@SomewhatMemorableName It's indeed complex. It's a real proposal and they imagine that it will work.

..the very idea that OP's would have to wait until they can demonstrate some understanding of SE rules/policy before getting their homework answer is just heresy.

@SomewhatMemorableName sure!

2:36 PM

Opinions on what happens if no one replies to a canonical bounty? I know Writing is kind of slow, but there's 3 days left and no one's left so much as a comment but me. It's this question.

Somewhat Memorable Name

Other than "move on"? You can post your own answer as "community wiki" with collected info from other answers, and accept it yourself. The bounty will be wasted though, but SE participation is always voluntarily, so you can't force anyone...

While LifeHacks.SE might seem "dead" compared to other SE sites (when was the last HNQ from there?), they are famous outside of SE! Celebrating 265 Famous Question badges

πάντα ῥεῖ

3:01 PM

@JohnDvorak It's a bit misleading, should me mg/s actually.

πάντα ῥεῖ

3:21 PM

^should be

1 hour later…

Somewhat Memorable Name

4:32 PM

Should “Very Low Quality” flags be offloaded entirely to tag experts?

(last meta news before off...)

πάντα ῥεῖ

Already was mentioned yesterday IIRC

Somewhat Memorable Name

Ah, good then, because it's quite a big topic

4:58 PM

When comparing hypotheses with Bayesian methods, the similar 'clickbayes factor' can account for some harder-to-quantify priors.

πάντα ῥεῖ

5:28 PM

Swag for free?

Pssst, something just changed. If you figure out what it is, I might just send you a T-shirt.

Tweeted by tinkertim on June 1, 2018 at 5:27 PM

Journeyman Geek

5:55 PM

oh, is responsive design new?

πάντα ῥεῖ

No

Journeyman Geek

ooh, when was that added?

πάντα ῥεῖ

Was it actually?

Somewhat Memorable Name

@JourneymanGeek other than SO Teams users?

Journeyman Geek

there's a link below to disable it

@SomewhatMemorableName I er... only go on SO for teams

Somewhat Memorable Name

6:00 PM

> Done in April - Responsive design pt3: After a ton of work and testing, this is rolling out to Teams users (see post with details). -- 2018 monthly product team updates

Unless, it's on MSE...

> In progress - Responsive design pt4: We are continuing work on responsive with a goal to release to MSE for user feedback and testing this month (May).

πάντα ῥεῖ

@JourneymanGeek I am not willing to afford the money.

Journeyman Geek

@πάνταῥεῖ oh there's a few orgs that have it free

Somewhat Memorable Name

that made me question myself if I want to join Charcoal Teams or not... but I'm nobody...

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SomewhatMemorableName Hmm, your appearance here is, err "bit of broad":

user image

Journeyman Geek

@πάνταῥεῖ ava blocked?

user359686

6:13 PM

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

@πάνταῥεῖ CTRL+F5

πάντα ῥεῖ

Better now, yes.

6:46 PM

@PrincessLuna ALT+F4

πάντα ῥεῖ

@ShadowWizard It wasn't meant to welcome the content/topic per se.

@πάνταῥεῖ that's how it sounds for sure.

Comment starting with "Welcome to..." is, well, welcoming.

In those cases really better just downvote, vote to close, and delete as fast as possible, anywhere on SE. :)

πάντα ῥεῖ

That's why I removed it now. THX for noticing.

@ShadowWizard CTRL+F5 just forces refresh though. ALT+F4 is useless here

@PrincessLuna browser will refresh cache when reopening, no?

(depends on headers though, I guess?)

6:49 PM

theoretically, though i'd trust ctrl+f5 more

@ShadowWizard nope

ALT+F4 is fun though.

Everyone should try it. :D

πάντα ῥεῖ

Ha, ha :-P ...

hehe, we had this exact discussion before!!

Feb 5 at 9:24, by Shadow Wizard

@RougetheBat ALT+F4

lol

7:11 PM

Does Jay Hanlon have an account at MSE?

πάντα ῥεῖ

I am afraid so :-/

Is he Jaydles?

Will he get pinged if I @ him in here?

Journeyman Geek

yup. probably no

I don't think he's been in this room recently enough, and none of us (other than CMs, devs and other official types) can superping on this server

Hm. Well maybe he lurks :P

πάντα ῥεῖ

I don't think so :P

Somewhat Memorable Name

7:16 PM

no autocomplete for Jaydles, but sometimes I feel SE staffs have ~~spidey sense~~ ~~6th sense~~ something when mentioned on chat room?

lol

Somewhat Memorable Name

Jan 17 at 9:17, by Sensible Alexander

... I believe this is not my imagination, but balpha is almost always summoned to this room after a certain message...

πάντα ῥεῖ

@SomewhatMemorableName Where were the news that time?

7:44 PM

@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ What, you don't think "Greek Goddess costumes" create chemistry?

@TravisJ I believe in Egyptian goddesses

They do walk the walk...

πάντα ῥεῖ

U-MV081 - Mindfunk - Goddess

"Heavily" related:

Mindfunk - 11 Ton Butterfly

Heavily? ... Exact duplicate:

The Bangles - Walk Like an Egyptian

πάντα ῥεῖ

@TravisJ I avoided to mention "The Bangles" if you'd like to notice.

8:02 PM

Not of yours...

πάντα ῥεῖ

sd tpu-

> "close your eyes, give me your hand, darlin'"

Somewhat Memorable Name

8:30 PM

In case someone interested, Additional Moderator Needed (on CivicCRM.SE)

9:18 PM

@SomewhatMemorableName Thank you for the idea: I've made community wikis to some of my own posts before--I just dislike the idea of a bounty going to waste. I'll chat with some people on The Factory Floor (Worldbuilding's Chat), since a lot of them are on Writing as well.

Somewhat Memorable Name

10:17 PM

(what am I doing, still awake at 5am...)

@SomewhatMemorableName It's 3 pm!

On a SomewhatRelatableNote, the air smells so good outside at 5am, you should spend at least a few minutes out there before sleeping since you earned it.

Journeyman Geek

ah

its 6.20 am

an hour and 40 minutes for work to end

I will be getting home right as you get out of work

#weekend! :D

Sonic the Inclusive Hedgehog

10:52 PM

@SmokeDetector naa-

@SomewhatMemorableName On the questions you reported via !!/allspam. I haven't checked them all, but at least for some of them, the question specifically asks for exactly this type of information. The user's association with the site/gateway is also disclosed. By the definitions that SE uses, where both of those things are the case, it is not spam. Spam must be unsolicited or have affiliation undisclosed.

Somewhat Memorable Name

@Makyen noted, fair point.

11:45 PM

Ah, another happy happy happy hour, I see. :D

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