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12:00 AM
heh
work drama is odd
I currently have a co-worker mad at me for not swapping a work day with him over CNY
I worked the morning of the 'indian' holiday cause I couldn't get coverage
And he's basically making a fuss over little things we usually help each other over
case is not set to closed - you know its been handled. You close ._.
you don't message the other dude over the site chat
AT WORST you send him a message directly
 
Sounds like he's a fun guy :P
 
now the joke is... I don't really care that much now that I know he's just being petty
 
Good ;). Just be petty back ;)
I'll hear how that went in the morning, okay?
 
naw, being petty isn't my thing
It isn't worth it
 
 
1 hour later…
1:13 AM
apparently holiday...
 
 
2 hours later…
2:47 AM
> your politeness will be irrelevant
I like this :)
 
:)
I couldn't think of any other way to put it across
 
It's understandably hard to make new users accustomed to this...
 
I had trouble finding it in the help
._.
(incidentally - the post that's a dupe of. is soo Chatty)
 
Crudely, it's in the "no chit-chat" on the [tour] page
oh, the irony...
 
Hi, Andy. It is my hope that this message finds you in good health and better cheer! I'm waiting out a rainstorm here, the sort of fast and heavy summer rains common to the southern parts of Colorado - you may be familiar with them. But enough of these matters: I write to you today for a singular purpose, that of expressing my disagreement with your reasoning in the above answer. While I can certainly appreciate the desire for familiarity among peers on SO, ultimately I feel it serves only to distract casual readers from the intended message. Please give my best to your family; sincerely, Shog — Shog9 ♦ Jul 6 '09 at 22:40
 
2:56 AM
gave his best to my family. just now.
my mom was confused...
 
there mostly done
this particular set of comments, I leave to someone else ;)
 
whoa... censure!!!11!1!oneone!
 
 
1 hour later…
4:20 AM
@andmyself think of it as clearing social technical debt.
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Link following arrow in body, pattern-matching website in body (195): CouponNDeal - Latest Coupons, Deals, Discount & Promo Codes by CouponNDeal on webmasters.SE
 
4:39 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with email in body (65): Web database search and data extraction - will pay by aquasurf on superuser.com
 
4:58 AM
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, bad pattern in url body, blacklisted website in body, pattern-matching product name in body, +2 more (589): weight loss foods by leilamhartwell on bricks.SE
 
When are we going to celebrate 31st here?
 
 
2 hours later…
6:39 AM
@Pandya Now
Done. Celebrated.
Now get back to work
It's "Stack Overflow", dammit!
 
7:17 AM
@Pandya at -12:00 UTC
and then every hour
until +12:00 UTC
It will be the longest happy hour ever ...
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ that's right.
@JourneymanGeek potty is better. :D
 
@JourneymanGeek ur pretty
 
@JourneymanGeek I didn't want to go that rogue ...
but yeah, not that useful as tag in SE context
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ ok. Happy ending of 2018! :)
 
off-topic (needs 1 more) /cc @sha @bar @glo Is the output wrong or right?‭ - Sabyasachi Sahoo‭ 2018-12-31 05:30:22Z
 
7:32 AM
@rene kaboomed 2018-12-31 07:31:23Z
 
8:18 AM
@rene is it a userscript similar to SOCVR CV Request Generator?
 
writing a Star Request Generator script
 
What would be a possibly decent request if we want to tighten the grace period for edits?
 
@ɪBᴜɢ it's already "tightened" by making comments end it.
Maybe also ask that flags will end it, though pretty sure it's already requested.
 
Spammers on WordPress Development are regularly exploiting this, so their posts are often caught for a single "bad keyword" reason, and evading autoflagging.
@ShadowWizard it's impractical to comment on every post, also they edit quickly (< 5 sec) which is too fast to comment
 
Ask for grace period edits to just send it through the WS again
 
8:27 AM
6
Q: Stack Exchange on a small resolution screen

OppenedeWhen I'm behind a 1024x768 screen the width of content on this site is decreased making several answers and questions inconvenient to read. How can I have the site loaded with full widths and heights but having scroll bars instead? When I edit this question I do in fact have a horizontal scroll ...

So much accessibility /s
(Well at least someone else opened a meta question on this too)
Is there going to be any workaround?
E.g. any plans to make "disable responsiveness" a permanent option?
 
@ɪBᴜɢ but if they edit out the spam in grace period, it's gone forever, so what's the harm?
 
No, they edit in a link
 
Example?
 
doesn't have 10k on Wordpress
 
@Mithrandir example
 
8:30 AM
@forest I don't think so, e.g. switching between mobile/full is still per-site option to this day.
 
@ShadowWizard ehh. there's lots of community FAQs with lots of answers + I think the two answers on that post on suspension is complimentary. As a soft topic - there can be different, equally correct viewpoints (referencing meta.stackexchange.com/questions/316631/… ) ;p
 
I'm not on a mobile device and don't need mobile view.
 
@ShadowWizard eventually the responsive design should cover mobile devices too
 
@ɪBᴜɢ not good example, it's spam even without any link.
 
Well this is just pathetic. :/
 
8:32 AM
@ShadowWizard I mean, if they posted the link at first, it'd get nuked faster
 
@JourneymanGeek well, it's confusing for new users, who need to skim through different answers and try to pick what they think is correct.
 
Did the shareholders demand that the disable responsiveness button be removed, or is it being removed just because SE staff don't understand that some need it?
 
@ShadowWizard I've never heard of that on meta, ever
@forest ehhh. See, that's how you get people not to listen to you ;p
Sooo hostile
I think the idea (still) is to move everything over to stacks
 
@JourneymanGeek I'm not intending to come across as hostile. It's better than "or because SE staff want to screw over people" or something.
 
@forest ... you seriously need to dial it back
 
8:34 AM
@JourneymanGeek it already does, for me. Problem is that users can just resize the browser window to any size, regardless of screen resolution.
 
^ That's my issue, resizing.
 
@ShadowWizard yup
 
My screen resolution is fine, but I don't want to maximize my browser.
 
@forest but but
making it as "the evil SE employees are screwing over my right to use a quarter screen" vs...
 
So mobile/not mobile isn't relevant, gave that only as example for option that exists for long years without making it "permanent" across the network.
 
8:35 AM
@JourneymanGeek Huh? The "screw over" comment was not serious.
 
@Mithrandir You guys all blog on Medium?
 
I was saying that what I said is better than saying they're trying to screw us over. :P
 
"While SE's statistics show that 1024x768 screens are uncommon, many developers may choose to use part of their screens - so having a smaller minimum size would be helpful"
 
@ɪBᴜɢ What do you mean, "you guys" and "all"?
 
So, you acknowledge their reasoning, make it something they care about, and make a useful suggestion.
Compare that to
> Did the shareholders demand that the disable responsiveness button be removed, or is it being removed just because SE staff don't understand that some need it?
 
8:36 AM
@JourneymanGeek I don't understand their reasoning.
 
@Mithrandir Many SE users blog on Medium
 
I assumed it was just something the shareholders demanded.
 
No part of that isn't hostile.
 
@ɪBᴜɢ so far only Monica and @Mithrandir, hardly "all" and not "guys".
 
I'm trying not to assume malice.
 
8:37 AM
@forest you're basically assuming a lot based on almost no evidence
 
Many people blog on Medium. That happens to include several SE people, yes, such as HDE.
 
@ShadowWizard I think I've seen a couple of others.
 
LOOK! HE LOOKS SHIFTY! HE MUST BE GUILTY!
 
I think you're getting caught up in that part. I'm assuming they're doing it because they were told to do it, not because they're incompetent or evil.
 
@ShadowWizard I was just surprised to see two active MSE users blog on Medium
 
8:37 AM
Jon Ericson maybe?
 
I don't think that's hostility.
 
@forest It is.
 
That wasn't my intent. I apologize for that.
 
@Alex Jon uses github
 
@JourneymanGeek Eh, they're all the same.
 
8:39 AM
@JourneymanGeek If that's the language they want to hear, should it be a meta post? The post I linked doesn't explain it that way, and seems to be satisfied with the temporary workaround.
 
@forest I don't tailor my language to the medium
 
But you just said I was being too hostile to them. O_o
 
@JourneymanGeek not really?
 
I just want results so accessibility is not damaged for me.
 
I am vindicated.
 
8:41 AM
vindi what?
:D
 
@ShadowWizard really --> jericson.github.io
 
@Alex @ShadowWizard jericson.github.io NEVAR!
@forest and how you deal with the human beings who handle these things is important.
 
Conspiracy.
 
I don't know who handles them.
They don't look at meta (as even staff here have said).
Contacting them via "contact us" has not been useful.
 
@forest meta is apparently scary for some.
 
8:43 AM
@forest oh they do. And leave SE as result.
(i.e. Joe Friend.)
 
@ShadowWizard He left the company because of something on Meta?
 
So an essential part of what I'd like to do, which is going to be really something you're going to hate, is to try to slowly help meta be a more positive place.
 
@forest When hundreds of people you try to help yell at you and keep saying "this sucks, you do horrible things"? Yes.
 
@ShadowWizard What did he do to get so many people angry at him?
 
I have no clue what I did on SU so... this should be fun. I'll just be me
 
8:44 AM
@JourneymanGeek Do you think that's something possible to do before the option vanishes and I am no longer able to view the site without bleeding eyes?
 
@forest he is the one behind the whole responsive design project, as far as I can tell.
 
@ShadowWizard :(
 
Because that seems more like a long-term plan than a solution.
@ShadowWizard Did he only leave Meta, or leave SE the company?
 
Joe works at Microsoft now
 
@forest he's no longer with the company apparently
 
8:45 AM
Ah. That's good at least.
 
@forest left SE and got back to work for Microsoft, where what he's doing is more appreciated, probably.
 
I mean leaving SE, not moving to MS.
 
@ShadowWizard I think SE has a few unique aspects that... erm...
 
@forest ....why?
 
8:46 AM
I'd love to keep, but kinda haven't scaled
 
@Mithrandir If he was the guy who came up with the responsiveness idea?
 
@Mithrandir because she hates the responsive design, that's pretty clear.
 
Then it's good that he left, rather than staying and making even more mistakes.
 
@forest erm. See. You're basically turning this into a personal attack against one employee.
 
see that's a really unconstructive attitude
 
8:46 AM
@forest the ship has sailed though, they can't and won't just abort the project.
 
well, ex employee
 
this wasn't the decision of one person
 
@JourneymanGeek Oh no no I don't mean it was good that he was forced out. It would have been better if he were simply fired than getting attacked by the community.
 
@ShadowWizard I think the big epic fail here is...
they completely blew the communication
So the heart of the responsive design push, and moving over to this is something called Stacks
SO basically, they can design the sites on the same frame work
 
@JourneymanGeek What exactly is "Stacks"?
 
8:48 AM
....
 
@forest You miiiighhttt want to consider what you just said.
 
Ah
@JourneymanGeek Huh? I'm saying it's not good that he was attacked by the community. People yelling "you suck" or whatever is not the right way to go about things. I'm glad that he left, not that he was treated badly by the community.
 
Saying that someone should have been fired is... not a thing that's good to do.
 
3 mins ago, by forest
Then it's good that he left, rather than staying and making even more mistakes.
erm. That's crossing one line.
 
8:49 AM
Yes. I think it's good that he left. I don't think it's good that he was attacked.
I don't think anyone should be attacked, even if they make bad design decisions.
 
You can't blame a company-wide initiative on a single employee who was tasked with implementing it.
 
@Mithrandir Oh were they only the implementer?
 
@ɪBᴜɢ yes, it is the same. I asked @Makyen to adapt the script so it would work here as well.
 
@forest erm... I think that's a senator, when did you stop beating your wife statement
@forest more that a product manager co-ordinates things
 
?
Ah
 
8:51 AM
that said, there was probably designers, devs, some management...
 
product manager != CM, no?
 
right
 
@Mithrandir TBH it looks like a bunch of buzzwords to me.
 
@ɪBᴜɢ At this point of time, thankfully no
 
the community is not a product as far as i'm aware
 
8:51 AM
Not sure I get exactly what its purpose is (I know about Teams though).
 
Its actually a relatively new thing on SE
 
@JourneymanGeek why thankfully that PM != CM?
 
@ɪBᴜɢ Quite frankly? We don't have enough CMs. I don't really like the idea of them also having to deal with the project management role as well
If they want project managers, they can hire project managers.
 
I dunno, CMs might be more in touch with the community.
 
They're a great lot, but they're stetched thin
 
8:53 AM
They might make better project managers than some rando out of business school whose only focus is to maximize profit at the expense of all else.
Since they'd be able to understand the effects on the community.
 
@JourneymanGeek So hire more CMs?
 
@forest I don't think any of the PMs are "some rando out of business school whose only focus is to maximize profit at the expense of all else"
 
@forest they could hire Gabe Newell if they want to maximize profit :)
 
@forest would be nice, but I don't know the full reasons why they haven't
 
8:53 AM
@forest that's kinda not a simple thing to do
 
@JourneymanGeek I have a very cynical response to that, but I'll try to hold it in. >_>
 
@ɪBᴜɢ Because if you need to make money (business wise) you better have someone who is not bothered by an angry crowd that yells at you constantly.
 
I half suspect that is a thing that needs to be sold to management
 
What is, the need for more CMs?
 
Its worth looking at SE historically
@forest apparently
 
8:55 AM
Are the CMs the only bridge between execs and community?
 
@forest almost
 
damn
 
@forest eh, its a bit confusing.
There's a few non CM folks who do awesome community evangelism.
But we don't know the internals of that
 
but they act as if they were CM when it comes to such jobs
 
Oh that's good of them.
 
8:56 AM
so "General" CM
 
I mean, I think Joel gets the importance of CMs - he actually did a few initiatives that I felt worked really well.
Its just not been a focus lately
Well, its been a little better since the various twitter dumpster fires.
 
It's hard not to get better after an all time low.
 
But finding folks who can both talk to devs/design team folks and... us lot must be interesting
 
Hopefully the positive trend continues.
 
@Mithrandir he was not fired. Pretty sure of that. Looks like he left on his own, due to the negative feedback he kept getting from SO users. No?
 
8:57 AM
@ShadowWizard But why didn't he just... accept the feedback?
 
@ShadowWizard there's no real word from anyone. its purely speculation
@forest cause meta is a bit of a jungle
and not everyone has a bullet proof hide
 
Sure, but when everyone tells you you're wrong...
When UX.SE tells you you're dead wrong.
Then maybe it's time to go back to the drawing board.
 
@forest historically though - literally every change has gotten pushback
I think a big difference is... well, jeff did it anyway ;p
 
But this level of pushback for this long? Not nearly as often.
I mean yes, everything has some pushback, but this is tremendous.
 
@forest can't really do anything with "this sucks!11!!!"
 
8:59 AM
This is like, every site's individual meta is livid.
 
@forest the network's a lot bigger.
 
@ShadowWizard Well people have given very detailed responses. :P
 
@forest yet a few sites had better luck than others changing stuff.
 
Domain experts, even.
Well more like doing damage control than getting stuff improved.
 
A few more have annoyingly hard things to fix, that I think are probably on the roadmap
 
9:00 AM
E.g. WB.SE getting to keep their robot.
I get that there are hard bugs to fix, but things like vote icons and fonts?
 
@forest well, that was actually a textbook case of positive engagement
folks went "WE NEED THIS BACK! IT MATTERS!" the right way
 
What, you mean them being caught in the lie that custom vote icons are harder to maintain than custom badges, when people realized that they come from the same exact image resource? That was a textbook case of assuming that we don't know anything about web development and will believe anything we're told.
 
"caught in the lie" ...
 
Or misunderstanding or whatever.
 
I think we talked about this specific attack a few times
 
9:02 AM
I get that the person who told us might not have actually known the details.
Maybe they were improvising and not downright lying, I dunno.
But the point is that it was a blatant falsehood on their part.
 
And see... this sort of wording is exactly why people have such a hard time with meta
 
I think they'd have an easier time if they didn't lie to us in the beginning. >_>
 
You're constantly assuming the worst of people
imagine that X1000
 
Or at least admitted that they made a mistake and corrected it.
 
ANd that's why folks burn out
Consider "You guys said that custom vote icons are harder to maintain. These are in the same image resource. Could we have this customisable per site?"
 
9:03 AM
caught in cross-fire
 
@JourneymanGeek How can I not when it's harder to get them to accept feedback of any kind (constructive or otherwise) than... than something that doesn't take feedback. I completely lost the analogy I was going to make.
 
No one's getting accused of lying.
 
@JourneymanGeek That's what people said.
 
but but
 
And when they were ignored and the same erroneous claim was repeated, that's when people started calling them out as a liar.
 
9:04 AM
I think I'd just let them start over with a simpler design, then slowly add customization back...
 
The dimensions of the vote buttons changed.
 
@Mithrandir So? That just means you have to scale them. They're SVG.
 
if you're constantly accusing folks of lying, why're they going to care about what you have to say?
 
It is impossible to keep the same images, because they no longer fit the space.
 
@Mithrandir Vector graphics work for any dimensions.
@JourneymanGeek So what should be done if they are told politely that they are incorrect, and all they did was repeat the same incorrect claim?
 
9:05 AM
That said... goes back to celebrate New Tear's Eve
 
@forest still better for folks that constantly accusing them of lying.
 
Continuing to politely tell them that this is not how image resources work clearly didn't cut it. It's only after it was clear that they refused to accept feedback that people began to feel more contempt for them and call it a downright lie.
 
erm, just you.
 
I wasn't the first person who said this. :P
 
great fun if you don't know the technical debt and/or design constraints and still people tend to know betteer
 
9:06 AM
@rene People do tend to know better when they're literally web designers.
@JourneymanGeek I internalized it after seeing dozens of comments like that.
 
@forest well, SE literally hires web designers.
I'm not one. You're... erm... IDK
some grumpy guy on the internet.
 
I'm a security consultant. I don't do web dev.
But I know that many people here do.
 
and well
if its that much of a thing IDK
throw together a user script
point out its a doable thing
 
So when they say that it uses the same image resource, I'll believe that (I mean, I guess I could independently verify with inspect element, but I haven't).
@JourneymanGeek I think people have.
People who know far more JS than I do. :P
 
Amazingly, some people who know far more JS than you do designed the sites.
2
A few others made sure it runs blazingly fast.
 
9:08 AM
Again, I'm only repeating what others have said.
 
See, that's a cop out.
 
...in a much more hostile manner.
 
@Mithrandir No, I just repeat it in chat instead of on comments. :P
 
that's not an excuse
 
@forest not that much better
 
9:09 AM
I've seen... far more hostile attitudes in comments than I have made.
 
@forest dosen't make it right
 
They aren't even going to read it.
 
They do read it.
 
Even Tim Post said that they pay more attention to Twitter than MSE.
Without even being sarcastic.
 
grabs something to eat
 
9:11 AM
Whatever is going down, the fact is that there's a great divide between SE the company and SE the community. And it's causing serious damage.
And so much loss of trust that people have begun to get hostile.
 
@forest and we can accept that - or work at making MSE useful again
 
@JourneymanGeek But what about other site metas that are very polite?
Staff even ignore their feedback (even after explicitly asking for feedback). Why?
 
@forest well, I'm sure that someone who works here can try to answer. I'm focused on MSE because, well I'm here with my MSE mod hat now.
MSU kinda rarely has FRs
 
FR?
 
feature requests
 
9:14 AM
Ah
 
feature... ing ninj'as
 
Frankly most of my experience is from other metas, rarely MSE.
So I don't know exactly how bad MSE is.
 
and we were extremely effective in distilling our dislike of our particular theme in something actionable
and that's an essential thing here. People are going to listen to folks who constructively engage them.
 
Then what about English.SE which still has godawful discordant fonts?
 
@forest Mistakes were made. Didn't both shog and cat weigh in?
 
9:16 AM
They tried to engage politely, explaining the issues.
 
Wasn't there a mention of trying to figure out what to do?
 
If there was, it must have been more recent than when I last checked that meta.
I'll check again. I hope you're right.
 
might be on main meta.
I'm pretty certain they mentioned working out fonts was on the pipeline
 
Most of those fonts are browser-native.
So it should be quite trivial to revert the change.
 
ah
> After all the sites get the standard theme, we can actually consider a more interesting choice of fonts. (Hello Roboto?) It really depends on having a predictable framework for every site on the network before we can make that sort of choice.
 
9:18 AM
@JourneymanGeek I'm not familiar with this, but quick search got me this, with no reply from any CM.
 
8
Q: Why do some parts of the standard theme use different fonts than the rest of the site?

Jon EricsonWe've been asked why different parts of the responsive design site theme have noticably different fonts on some sites: As you can see, the logo and the question titles are in a serif font and everything else is sans serif. You might not notice the discrepancy the first time you look, but once ...

 
@ShadowWizard That was one of them, yeah.
-24
Q: English Language & Usage's updated site theme is ready for testing!

CatijaAs part of implementing the new unified themes across the network, we're gradually rolling out updated site themes for each site. As of today, we have enabled your updated site theme for testing. If you can't see it right now, that's by design! We're hoping to get feedback from you before rolli...

This was another (damn, -24).
Yeah no responses to the font issue, from skimming it.
lmao but they did respond to the more mundane complaints. :D
 
9:35 AM
@forest actually the post I linked was essentially a response to part of that
 
Hmm... it seems migrated posts are not reflected on the Filtered Questions...?
rechecking again
 
[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in answer (86): Create a New Company in Magento by eGlobe IT Solutions on magento.SE
 
@andmyself meaning?
No sign they are migrated, or they don't appear at all?
 
I just told my spammer pen-pal that the bank had given me an error and sent him an error code for me to put in. From a disposable email I sent him the error code "VNzNa1qvbgSbeSnyyvatS0e7uvf". ...too much? (hint: r13 it)
 
:D
 
9:47 AM
@ShadowWizard not appearing at all... this ELU meta post doesn't appear on 100 latest network meta posts
 
The disposable email was errors@sharklasers.com, BTW. ;)
 
hmm.. wait... the migration was rejected. Probably that's the reason why it doesn't appear...
 
@andmyself yeah, was going to say it probably doesn't show locked or closed questions.
 
I'm an idiot...
 
@andmyself nah
 
9:54 AM
@forest I. Effing. Hate. Arial :(
 
Who is Arial?
 
So does everyone. :P
Arial, sometimes marketed or displayed in software as Arial MT, is a sans-serif typeface and set of computer fonts. Fonts from the Arial family are packaged with all versions of Microsoft Windows from Windows 3.1 onwards, some other Microsoft software applications, Apple Mac OS X and many PostScript 3 computer printers. The typeface was designed in 1982 by Robin Nicholas and Patricia Saunders, for Monotype Typography. It was created to be metrically identical to the popular typeface Helvetica, with all character widths identical, so that a document designed in Helvetica could be displayed and printed...
 
Let's. Use. Papyrus.
 
@forest دلیل اصلی اش این فونت فارسی اش هست.
 
wot
 
9:57 AM
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Looks very Arial to me...
 
I KNOW RIGHT ARGH
 
@M.A.R. why would you hate Arial?! :P
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ לא הבנתי כלום
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ Looks very Arabic to me...
 
Too Arabic.
 
9:58 AM
@Mithrandir No U
@ShadowWizard It's Persian
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ לא אתה!
 
So yeah, Arabic
 
@M.A.R.ಠ_ಠ same letters
 
@ShadowWizard לא אתה! UR FACE
 
9:58 AM
分からない
 
@ShadowWizard Persian has an extra four
@andmyself That one is too delicate to be swearing
 
I'm surprised they didn't block the ability to read and write Hebrew letters at your country, @M.A.R. :)
 
(inb4 someone flagging non-English chat messages)
 
They don't have particularly anything to do with the language
 

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