Tavern on the Meta

Had to keep waiting for so long... and just when I was about to give up and go back to working he replied, so I got excited and came back, but then very long wait time to get the next reply... went on for very long

Journeyman Geek

and they're insanely busy

user1271772

Why are they insanely busy?

Journeyman Geek

well, there's a lot to do, and very few of them.

user1271772

Are they able to hire more staff?

Journeyman Geek

1:28 AM

Well, one would hope so

user1271772

Did they ever say why they didn't do it?

Journeyman Geek

they've been making positive noises in that respect

user1271772

It took sooooo long to get the replies man

Journeyman Geek

@user1271772 well, actually, the CM team has shrunk over the past few years.

user1271772

Mine was the only chat room he was in though

Journeyman Geek

1:29 AM

a few people got moved elsewhere and not replaced, some left and weren't replaced, one was affected by the layoffs...

user1271772

layoffs?

Are they low on money or something?

Journeyman Geek

They made a few bad business decisions - its supposedly better now

user1271772

Is it possible to hire Shog09 ? That guy's pretty cool

Journeyman Geek

Oh he works for SE already

user1271772

oh hahahhaa

that would explain a lot

Journeyman Geek

1:30 AM

SE dosen't lack for quality in CMs

user1271772

I came to Tavern on Meta once and he was here

He put the whole room in a freeze for like 7 minutes

We had to wait while he said a bunch of stuff, it was pretty cool

@JourneymanGeek How many years ago?

Journeyman Geek

(elsewhere? eh, basically everyone I've come in contact with has been excellent at their jobs)

Last year

user1271772

The layoffs were in 2017?

Journeyman Geek

Nov actually

so exactly a year ago

user1271772

November 2017

How many people did we lose?

Journeyman Geek

1:33 AM

.... lots

user1271772

wowwwww

and that's when they hired Shog09 to replace some of those missing people?

Journeyman Geek

naw

Shogs been there for years

user1271772

What was the bad business decision that made us lose "lots" of CMs ?

Journeyman Geek

Shog essentially is (one of) Jeff's replacement(s)

@user1271772 well IMO?

user1271772

Jeff Artword?

Journeyman Geek

1:34 AM

Atwood

user1271772

Atwood?

Journeyman Geek

IMO their focus was elsewhere

Bit of tail wagging the dog

user1271772

Oh man, Jeff Attwood must be a legend. Shog09 is only ONE of his replacements?

Journeyman Geek

they made a massive bet on the careers side of SE being a lot more profitable than it was

user1271772

I can only imagine what Jeff would have been like!

Journeyman Geek

1:35 AM

@user1271772 he was... a bit of a force of nature.

user1271772

The careers side is the advertising for companies to hire people?

Journeyman Geek

yup

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@user1271772 Three people replaced Jeff Atwood

user1271772

Seems like a mistake I might have made too... seems a lot of companies would love to hire people from here

Journeyman Geek

Now, as a business major (I must have been a terrible person in a previous life) - its a massively crowded market.

SE does have the advantage of its branding (well SO), but you're still competing with a lot of other folks

And to me, SE's big strengths are all in engineering

user1271772

1:37 AM

The other thing is that high reputation doesn't necessarily correlate with being an amazing employee does it?

Journeyman Geek

@user1271772 eh, not really

user1271772

A lot of the high rep users are spending so much time on SO. Answering questions so fast it's crazy. When do they have time to actually do the task that the company assigned to them?

Journeyman Geek

Actually a lot of roles probably don't need awesome rep.

@user1271772 assuming they work for SO ;)

SO's core team is surprisingly small, though we don't really know what size it is

(We used to :/)

but some folks had to ruin it for everyone.

user1271772

I mean if I worked at facebook and my task was to get some huge development done by 1st of December, I would have to control how many answers I post on SO. It can get addictive and then it's easy to spend a lotttt of hours here gaining rep.

Those are not the users the companies want to hire right?

Journeyman Geek

@user1271772 well in a sense, they could be.

but depends on the company?

user1271772

1:41 AM

Because they're ambitious I guess

So we lost MONEY because we thought that the careers thing would work?

Journeyman Geek

some folks seem to think a high SO score makes them more employable. To the point of cheating.

@user1271772 SO might have

user1271772

The REALLY high rep SO users don't cheat though do they?

How does this bot have 78 points: meta.stackexchange.com/users/372944/pseudohuman

Journeyman Geek

Well, you don't need to IMO

On SU and MSE I found that finding your niche, learning to spot questions and being consistant helps

@user1271772 "bots" on SE chat need 20 rep, so the bot-wrangler just uses it to answer questions

user1271772

I see

So bots are allowed I guess

Journeyman Geek

With some slightly arbitrary rules, yes ;p

user1271772

1:45 AM

You seem to have very few points on Stack Overflow compared to the 20+ sites you have more points in. It's the first time I've seen that, you don't like SO?

Journeyman Geek

I'm not a coder

user1271772

I see

Journeyman Geek

my one SO answer came from awesome googling and fuzzing skills and bordom

user1271772

hahahahaha

You're still in Singapore? You know I used to live in Jurong West?

Journeyman Geek

Still in singapore.

user1271772

1:46 AM

I miss that place an

man*

Could definitely go for some chili crab right now, it's been years

and durian

I thought @Catija was on leave

Journeyman Geek

She is. She's a bit bad at it ;p

user1271772

hahahaha, well I can't blame her!

Makyen

2:03 AM

@user1271772 @JourneymanGeek While this bot-user did answer questions, the more common choice is to make enough edits to obtain the rep required for whatever task the bot is intended (actually target a bit over the rep required, in case a post is deleted) . The primary reason to choose editing instead of answering is that edits have little or no ongoing commitment to interactions with people. If you ask/answer something, then you should be available to respond to comments that are made on the post.

Journeyman Geek

@Makyen which is also fine

user1271772

@Makyen, thanks for the clarification. When we answer something, do we have to respond to comments?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Makyen Recall the time when a user tried to transfer rep to an alternative account by awarding a bounty, but the bounty was cleared by an SE employee?

Makyen

@user1271772 You don't have to, but if someone is asking you a question about your post (e.g. for clarification), then it's usually good to respond.

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I believe this has happened multiple times. I'm not sure which time you're referring to.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Makyen The point is, according to the rules that SE has set forth, any rep gained by an alternative account must be gained organically, and "transferring" rep in any manner is disallowed.

I believe a user was suspended here because they fell just barely afoul of this policy. The same user tried to nominate themselves as a candidate in the current Android election, but they were disallowed as they'd been suspended in the past year. (cc @andmyself)

user1271772

2:19 AM

@Makyen, if they are making bots, why would they be interested in doing what's good (i.e. responding to people's messages)?

Makyen

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yes. More generally, what's not permitted is: A) interaction between the accounts controlled by a single user (e.g. voting on posts made by the other account(s), voting more than once on the same post, etc.); and B) use more than one account to do things that you would not be permitted to do with only one account (e.g. vote more than the max permitted for one account per UTC day, even on separate posts; get around a suspension, or ban; etc.).

user1271772

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog, what does "barely" afoul mean? You can transfer rep to fake accounts but it's okay until it goes over some limit?

Makyen

@user1271772 Most of the people making bots are doing so with the intent of improving SE, not to harm it. Those people are heavily invested in SE. Many of them are moderators on various sites.

user1271772

@Makyen, what's the difference between a ban and a suspension?

Makyen

@user1271772 For instance, SmokeDetector (see above post), is a bot that it devoted to finding and eliminating spam. Developing and maintaining just that one bot has taken (and continues to take) a lot of effort on the part of many people.

user1271772

2:25 AM

It's not a real person?

Makyen

@user1271772 A suspension is an account not being permitted to post anything on a site or chat. A ban is usually a limited restriction on what you can do on a specific site (e.g. a review ban = you can't review; a ban on editing = means you can't edit/suggest edits).

@user1271772 Click on the SmokeDetector link in the above post to find out more about it.

user1271772

I see

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog, who are the other two people that replaced Jeff, other than Shog09?

ɪʙᴜɢ

2:43 AM

@ShadowWizard February

Journeyman Geek

The latest still untitled is amusing - its basically Lumecluster (a really good, self taught costume-armour maker) Adam Savage and another old school vfx dude. Lumecluster's kinda like "holy shit" a lot cause she's pulling off stuff the two vfx guys are geeking out over.

(also so much "I did it that way cause no one told me that you couldn't")

ɪʙᴜɢ

@andmyself And... That hilarious nomination was from a current mod over at law.SE

Journeyman Geek

@user1271772 Its worth remembering even "bans" are time limited, so they're essentially automatic privilege specific suspensions.

(fun fact. I got review banned twice in a week trying to clear out a flood of review items from a tweak in the algorithm. I was a mod, but didn't feel it was right to unreview ban myself ;p)

Another mod did, and I was a lot more careful after that

lots of skips

user1271772

You wrote a bot to do the reviews?

I thought you said you're not a coder?

Journeyman Geek

naw

I don't do bots

I do things oldschool

user1271772

2:50 AM

So what do you mean by tweak in the algorithm?

ɪʙᴜɢ

bots do Journeyman Geek :-)

Journeyman Geek

@user1271772 oh SE tweaked what goes into specific queues

and added a lot of stuff there

user1271772

So you were banned for reviewing too much?

Journeyman Geek

I made 'mistakes'

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@user1271772 I believe Jarrod Dixon was another, but I can't remember the third. Basically, they're the first three SE Valued Associates.

user1271772

2:53 AM

@JourneymanGeek how does it know what's a mistake and what's not?

Journeyman Geek

@user1271772 review audits are based on what was reviewed before

and sometimes, it can be wrong ;p

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek I thought mods were overall exempt from bans? I know that suspensions and chat bans do nothing to mods.

Journeyman Geek

Its usually a non issue unless you're ploughing through a few hundred review items a say

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog mods can totally be review banned.

And lift the bans ourselves...

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek You should use Normal's Review Audit Detector user script

Journeyman Geek

(oops)

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I don't like scripts, and it was an unusual situation

I literally use 2 userscripts on SE

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

2:55 AM

What do you think of a feature proposal to stop a particular post from being used for audits again in case anyone fails a review audit on it?

Journeyman Geek

porkchat (for dark themes) and Jason C's script for cleaning up

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I suspect it would complicate things.

ɪʙᴜɢ

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I suspect even SO will soon be short of auditable posts

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek Are mods exempt from the daily review limit in the queues normal users can access?

ɪʙᴜɢ

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog yes: meta.stackexchange.com/a/183761/350567

Journeyman Geek

^

and ya, I totally took advantage of the lack of review limit cause there was so many, and they were not getting closed fast enough

ɪʙᴜɢ

3:03 AM

^[ggdG

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek So an SO mod could theoretically clear the extremely huge CV queue if they wanted. I wonder why they're not doing so.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog cause its boring

user1271772

what is CV ?

ɪʙᴜɢ

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog There are many factors, one of them being time availability.

forest

How do I upload an image by URL now?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

3:05 AM

@JourneymanGeek If I'm on a mode of transport with nothing to do and a Wi-Fi connection, I would.

Journeyman Geek

I'd rather be spending my time on the site proper and meta and chat, rather than doing those queues

ɪʙᴜɢ

@user1271772 Curriculum Vitae :)

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog I've had times like that. I'd rather be on meta ;)

user1271772

there's a queue for that?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@JourneymanGeek I'm the type of person who wouldn't be bored doing that.

@ɪʙᴜɢ Out of curiosity, did you contact SE and attempt to obtain permission before running as an Android mod, and were you denied? If so, what was the reason for the denial?

forest

3:06 AM

It seems the "upload image by URL" option is gone.

ɪʙᴜɢ

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yes, I did contact SE, and they say rule is a rule.

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@user1271772 Close Votes.

Journeyman Geek

@forest its still there

just paste in the URL

forest

Where?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@ɪʙᴜɢ In that case, they should edit the warning, because it says that users can contact SE and obtain permission if they wish to run.

user1271772

3:06 AM

IBUG why did you answer if you didn't know?

Close votes makes much more sense

Journeyman Geek

@forest literally ctrl v / shift insert in the url

forest

It just says "drag and drop or click here to upload an image".

oh

ty

ɪʙᴜɢ

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog :7357704 You sure you know all kinds of questions? Assume you're a SO mod and there are many Qs about C++, Java, Rust, Go, Haskell, etc, some of them are flagged "lack of MCVE" or "Typo", you sure you can handle em all?

Journeyman Geek

@ɪʙᴜɢ that's an essential thing

ɪʙᴜɢ

@user1271772 sorry I was trying to entertain

user1271772

3:07 AM

oh

Journeyman Geek

Even with flags, I sometimes may choose to leave em for other people

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I think that exception is there since some users were suspended improperly by site mods, and the suspension had already expired before an SE employee could get around to lifting it (if a suspension was lifted on appeal, one's allowed to run).

user1271772

If a user changes their email address associated with SO, are mods able to see all previous email addresses that were used by that user?

ɪʙᴜɢ

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Even if you can easily recognize OT questions (SEO, general computing etc.), you probably aren't able to judge all those content-specific close reasons.

Journeyman Geek

errrrrr

forest

3:08 AM

This is terrible UX. Who ever thought that was a good idea?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@ɪʙᴜɢ Yeah, I've hit Skip on lots of Triage questions.

ɪʙᴜɢ

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog One reason might be they don't want their contact queue get flooded.

Journeyman Geek

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog in addition, it shouldn't be for mods to clear out queues

it should be for the community

this was literally a exceptional situation

ɪʙᴜɢ

gEnerally, mods shouldn't do what the community can do

the community is good at keeping the CV queue around 8k to 10k

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

Anyway, how do you guys like the new flowcharts I put in the migration FAQ?

I believe it's the FAQ I've most heavily edited if you include both edits under this account and anonymously.

user1271772

3:15 AM

@JourneymanGeek: If a user changes their email address associated with SO, are mods able to see all previous email addresses that were used by that user?

Journeyman Geek

3:30 AM

errrrr

Probably not?

IDK, and its not something I've bothered about so far

if you really need to know, might be worth asking on meta

and myself

@ɪʙᴜɢ heh 😲

anyway, morning?

forest

We should reconsider big O notations... Θ(1) ⟶ Θ(😎) Θ(log(n)) ⟶ Θ(😁) Θ((log(n))^c) ⟶ Θ(😇) Θ(n) ⟶ Θ(🙂) Θ(n log(n)) ⟶ Θ(🤨) Θ(n^2) ⟶ Θ(😖) Θ(n^c) ⟶ Θ(😭) Θ(c^n) ⟶ Θ(😡) Θ(n!) ⟶ Θ(🤯)

Tweeted by manekinekko on October 24, 2018 at 4:02 PM

heh

ɪʙᴜɢ

3:54 AM

@andmyself morning!

Jolenealaska

7:41 AM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Yep. I'm currently in Anchorage. Moose are common here.

@user1271772 No, that would not be fraud. I was over 50K not long ago, but I gave 750 away in a bounty. Personally, I don't think it would be hard to find a post of mine worth an upvote. I vote all the time just perusing profiles of people I meet in chat.

Shadow Wizard

@forest it will change soon, Joe said they will add explicit "upload from web" option again.

forest

Oh good.

Shadow Wizard

@user1271772 not exactly. In a nearby, smaller, city. Why you ask?

Probably most people who see Israel associate it only with Tel Aviv though. ;)

@Jolenealaska heh. I had 100k on MSE and gave a +100 bounty, dropping me back below 100k. :)

(for few hours)

Journeyman Geek

8:18 AM

lol

rene

9:08 AM

@TravisJ valid reasons. I assume coffee shop is where you get coffee or is it a coffee shop Dutch style? (in the latter case "work" must have been relaxed ...)

Journeyman Geek

lol

@rene I thought that was only certain cities

rene

No, I'm pretty sure every coffee shop in the Netherlands is based on the same concept. No surprises there.

Journeyman Geek

0_0

Journeyman Geek

9:51 AM

HE KILLED KENNY....

Shadow Wizard

@rene in Israel most coffee shops also serve food, and many have WiFi and tables for people to sit with their laptops.

@JourneymanGeek YES KENNY IS DEAD

forest

You bastards!

Shadow Wizard

lol

forest

I love the episode where Kenny's mother was pregnant with a new kid after Kenny died, and she said "I'll name him... Kenny. Wow this just keeps happening doesn't it?"

I just wish the later episodes didn't get so political.

Journeyman Geek

10:12 AM

blah

I think I found a very precise, well written answer for a problem I am facing on SU....

problem is I was searching for a while and didn't find it

I am dissapoint.

I am not sure in what yet

Shadow Wizard

?

Catija

10:28 AM

Search. That's what.

Journeyman Geek

.... IT WORKED!!!!!

Or fundamentally broke everything

We will find out shortly

rene

did you have enough sleep? You're not chatting cohesively ...

Journeyman Geek

coherently

rene

Yes, well... it was a test. You passed.

delv-pls 20K stickers meta.stackexchange.com/questions/318097/… /cc @ShadowWizard @Glorfindel

Journeyman Geek

10:47 AM

@rene I have been stuck trying to get ipv6 working on my new router.

I think I got it working now

off a answer 4 years ago

rene

sweet!

Journeyman Geek

11:08 AM

silly thing is I can't test things properly cause I can't set up ipv6 without a live router

and that means I can't reboot willy nilly

Shadow Wizard

11:52 AM

@JourneymanGeek willy who?

rene

(va)nilly

Can an moderator see if a session of an user was reset/invalidated?

Journeyman Geek

actually this is oddly broken

πάντα ῥεῖ

k

Journeyman Geek

actually this is oddly broken

πάντα ῥεῖ

12:07 PM

hello echo

echo hello

Tinkeringbell

12:47 PM

Did I forgot to say good morning?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Tinkeringbell Oh, good morning BTW :3

Tinkeringbell

Hi :)

Good afternoon by now.

:P

πάντα ῥεῖ

Early afternoon here

Journeyman Geek

1:02 PM

Ohhhh

My dryer is on

Tinkeringbell

Meaning?

EKons

1:29 PM

"afternoon" here too

Tinkeringbell

Ugh. It's not even 3pm and it's already getting darker here :(

EKons

definitely not... 15:30 here

and myself

I just realized. Custom close reason only accepts 500 chars, while comment actually accepts 600 chars ._.

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell tis winter whats upon us

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Yeah.

I really like freezing and clear days better than rainy ones though

Magisch

1:32 PM

It's really uncharacteristically warm for november here though

we have 18C right now

18!

EKons

hah

same for me

and myself

... it's 28℃ as usual here...

feels like 31℃ though.

EKons

O_O

πάντα ῥεῖ

@Magisch That's a never ending summer, yes. If the trees wouldn't throw of their leaves, I'd be seriously confused.

EKons

and you're in what hemisphere?

and myself

1:35 PM

center hemisphere ;p

tropical climate though

EKons

I guess there are tons of monsoons nowadays, eh?

πάντα ῥεῖ

@EKons We're drying out here. A monsoon might be even appreciated.

EKons

I see there are clouds, eh? :-(

Shadow Wizard

6:50 PM

@Tinkeringbell his dryer is working

Tinkeringbell

@ShadowWizard (I thought he was trying to fix internet, not the dryer :P)

Shadow Wizard

Maybe he activates his dryer from the internet... ;-)

Tinkeringbell

Perhaps. I thought the dryer at the Geek household was a firehazard though, it doesn't sound like the dryer is smart enough to be on the internet.

Shadow Wizard

@Magisch here too... 23 and even 25 every day.

@Tinkeringbell surely @Journeyman is smart enough to make that possible... :D

People played Doom on refrigerators, I think.

Tinkeringbell

Huh. Well. That makes no sense :P

Unless they were sitting on them, then it's just uncomfortable

Magisch

6:58 PM

It's kind of a meme to port doom to everything

Someone ported it to a programmable calculator

Tinkeringbell

Ah.

So just doom everything? Or make everything doomed?

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

8:08 PM

What should we do in case of offensive bounty notices? meta.stackexchange.com/questions/164325/…

Tinkeringbell

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog Flag the post

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Tinkeringbell No one's going to check the MSE flag queue until after the weekend is over, plus Monday is a U.S. holiday, so the offensive bounty remark will remain in place until Tuesday if I opt for that route.

(Technically, Sunday is a U.S. holiday, but since it falls on Sunday, it's observed on Monday to ensure the same number of holidays.)

Mithrandir

8:46 PM

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

I've been shooting pictures of nature on black-and-white film

Mithrandir

I've been attaching my camera to my helmet, videoing the bike ride from the helmet, and then taking pictures.

Next I want to try sticking it in the river.

I've posted a picture the past three days... I guess it's a tradition now :P

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Mithrandir GoPro? (I have an action cam too. "It's a Sony")

I decided to try shooting on film for a change

Mithrandir

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog yep

My grandmother got me the 7 black :D

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

9:28 PM

@Mithrandir Ah, yes, the 7's out now. It looks like they copied many of their features from the Sony model (e.g. the optical stabilizer).

Mithrandir

...there was just a porcupine on my street but by the time I ran back and got something that could take a picture it wasn't in a good picture-taking place :( And apparently Night Mode just means Blurry Mode.

Shadow Wizard

9:58 PM

@SonictheAnonymousHedgehog luckily @Catija is in holiday so she has time to do those things.

But if not for her, agree most likely such things would have waited long days before being noticed by any SE staff.

Journeyman Geek

11:40 PM

@ShadowWizard there's a few that prowl meta :p

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@ShadowWizard Yep, looks like she handled it.

@JourneymanGeek On weekends?

Journeyman Geek

Ya.

But informally I guess

I saw a few questions modhammered yesterday

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@Shadow reopen-pls meta.stackexchange.com/questions/300249/… (see the third-to-last comment)

@JourneymanGeek Yesterday was still a work day.

Journeyman Geek

Oh

Timezones

Sonic the Anonymous Hedgehog

@ShadowWizard This is not a duplicate. The older question is asking how effective is the bounty system for a question's visibility. Instead THIS question asks whether a bountied question can also enter the HNQ. The two are not the same and what's worse there are no answers in the older question. Now, if I wanted to post an almost similar question to this one, will that too be closed as a duplicate of a question with no answers? — Mari-Lou A 3 hours ago

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