Tavern on the Meta

user315433

12:30 AM

SU is a big site with a lot of strong mod candidates (three nominations with CS > 30 already), but there is just one open position...

user315433

Also, I'm beginning to regret my vote for JonathanReez in the Travel election...

Journeyman Geek

Yup

We're doing ok on workload - this is essentially a top-up

@NormalHuman s/correct/only/

user315433

12:47 AM

Printer settings give me stapling options of: 1 staple, 2 staple, 4 staples. Not sure if these are all placed in corners...

Journeyman Geek

@NormalHuman heh, not the worst "legitimate" candidacy we've had

(not counting the guy with a what turned out to be a camgirl as an ava, who basically had an election pitch that went "I am cute")

SmokeDetector

1:33 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Repeated URL at end of long post: Exported DXF from QGIS won't open in AutoCAD by David Zheng on gis.SE

user315433

2:20 AM

!!/report video.stackexchange.com/a/20924

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Real Time personalized videos by George Jones on video.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body: About recently added FIFA Coins PS3 by Evangeline on aviation.SE

Jason C

2:46 AM

I don't think that warning would apply here: the embedded document is on a different origin (stacksnippets.net) than the main page (stackoverflow.com). — Jeremy Banks ♦ 3 mins ago

@JeremyBanks The quoted warning you mean? Are you sure it wouldn't apply? If so I'll shitcan the answer.

I don't know anything about it I just googled the sandbox flag.

Anonymous

@JasonC That's what I mean. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't apply -- but I haven't worked on StackSnippets or actually used that attribute myself before.

Jason C

Noob.

Anonymous

I'm not sure of the answer to "why is allow-same-origin not allowed."

Anonymous

I guess if you let multiple snippets interact with the common origin a bunch of weird cases could happen that would be annoying to address, like one snippet filling up localStorage so other snippets that use it suddenly stop working for no apparent reason.

Jason C

You could turn the answers in a post into some sort of weird miniature botnet.

Or answers could pass love letters to other answers in secret.

Anonymous

2:53 AM

#NotASocialNetwork

Anonymous

Yeah, potentially some weird things.

Jason C

It could be a social network for self-aware answers.

Anonymous

Now you're talking

Anonymous

Errr, very tangential but that got me thinking that we should have a Stack Overflow chat bot template for Glitch (formerly GoMix, formerly HyperDev, formerly HyperWeb).

Jason C

Comments = When two answers love each other very much...

Anonymous

2:55 AM

but there's no official API so maybe we couldn't have an official one. Oh well.

Journeyman Geek

@JeremyBanks that stops anyone how? ;p

Jason C

I think maybe @Andy or somebody was talking about a common framework in SOCVR.

Journeyman Geek

Just that you guys break it, ~~you guys~~ someone fixes it.

Jason C

in SO Close Vote Reviewers on Stack Overflow Chat, Mar 7 at 19:39, by Andy

A discussion in SOBotics brought up an idea of a unifying framework. I'd like to get an idea of what bots are out there. This will help us figure out what the framework would need to support. If you could fill it out once for each bot, that'd be cool and send it to other bot owners would be helpful too. I appreciate your time. Form

Anonymous

I guess that doesn't work so good for Glitch, since there wouldn't be a good way to merge changes back into forked apps.

Anonymous

2:57 AM

@JasonC Interesting, thanks.

Journeyman Geek

@JasonC as far as I know, just the "caprica"/cylon series, and the pythonic ones.

the former's JS, and a bit of a pain to set up it seems.

Anonymous

@JourneymanGeek It definitely doesn't, I know! :P I have own my secret Stack chat bot running on Glitch. But it does cause issues.

Jason C

I mean there's github.com/Manishearth/ChatExchange for the Python bots, which is probably the closest thing to a common framework that currently exists.

Anonymous

It is? Sweet, I picked the "winning" team. ;)

Journeyman Geek

yup

though I see rlemon's ones more often

Anonymous

3:15 AM

adds it to my Stack Overflow Developer Story

user315433

Oh, Gomix is now Glitch. At this rate that thing will end up with more names than users.

user315433

-4

Q: Swinging Atwood code for Python

We're looking for a set of code for the Swinging Atwood Machine (SAM). It is a dynamic chaotic system for a set of parameters. We need it to form the basis for a project, but we're hoping the general format already exists.

user315433

I couldn't understand at first why Jeff is swinging when coding in Python.

2

Journeyman Geek

3:39 AM

outside the gimmethecodez aspect of it, those things seem cool

SmokeDetector

3:51 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, pattern-matching product name in body, pattern-matching product name in title, +2 more: maleenhancementshop.info/alpha-prime-elite/ by kassierilson on apple.SE

SmokeDetector

5:16 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, link at end of body, pattern-matching website in body: Is This manhoodEnlarger Any Perfect by jellijollen on superuser.com

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in link text in body: YouTube Streaming with Raspberry Pi 3 by Daniel Wolfe on raspberrypi.SE

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] URL in title, bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, pattern-matching website in body, pattern-matching website in title: bettercoloncleansingguide.com/testo-ultra-es/ by Rich Clark on apple.SE

SmokeDetector

6:42 AM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Blacklisted website in answer: Samsung Galaxy A5 screen has broken, want to retrieve data by Ilyas Fahrudeen on android.SE

M.A.R.

9:07 AM

@SmokeDetector K

Where's an RO to move these messages? ;)

Bart

9:45 AM

At what point should we flag an OP making trivial edits to his Meta question without addressing any of the concerns?

Stijn

@Bart Now seems like a good time, since OP hasn't responded to comments about the editing behaviour.

Bart

Done. Let's see

Martin

10:32 AM

@NormalHuman I have mentioned your "Copy all comments" bookmarklet at least in a comment to this post: Is there a way to view a comment's source? Maybe you could at it also as an answer? (Personally, I found several of your stackmarklets, including this one, very useful.)

If you post it as an answer, feel free to ping me, so that I can remove the comment. (After an answer, it will become obsolete.)

Shadow Wizard

10:44 AM

@angussidney I see this is not fixed yet, Smokey reports in Tavern are back to the volume they were in the past... 6-8 weeks for a fix? (like any decent bug ;))

@Bart custom flag? Are they handled on MSO?

(such flag on MSE will just sit there, waiting.)

Bart

@ShadowWizard we'll see. I've custom flagged it

Shadow Wizard

waiting

Stijn

@ShadowWizard they are but you need to have some patience :)

Usually handled within a day from my experience

Shadow Wizard

@Stijn day?!?! Whoa.... what a dream...

Bart

I'm sure they're just ignoring @ShadowWizard's flags

Shadow Wizard

10:57 AM

With average of two months for flag yeah, that might be the case...

So they throttle @Telkitty and ignore my flags. What else? ;-)

Stijn

-2

Q: Feature request: Provide 24*7 Online help centre facility

Many programmers are struggling during their office time due to critical Bugs and doubts. If you provide online immediate assistance it will save lakhs of developers career and life too.

support feature-request help-center stackoverflow-talent

Shadow Wizard

@Stijn whoa.... best FR ever.

@Jason do you also store the time each chat message in Tavern was posted? I remember not being able to really get it when scraping WAG chain.

angussidney

@ShadowWizard are you sure? It's currently spam hour and lots of posts are being reported by smokey which aren't being posted in the tavern

Shadow Wizard

@angussidney not 100% sure, but looks like there are still too many Smokey reports here, especially with the auto flags etc

So it was fixed?

Stijn

Yeah, there are more Smokey reports than we used to see

angussidney

11:06 AM

I'll have a look, maybe some of the posts aren't being auto ignored like they should be

Stijn

Air conditioning is broken in this building. Yesterday it was too hot, today it's too cold, even though it's always set to 22 °C

Shadow Wizard

@angussidney yup, thanks!

@Stijn oh no... but do all people in the office feel this? If only you, maybe you're sick?

Stijn

@ShadowWizard others were complaining yesterday about it being too hot, don't know about today

angussidney

@ShadowWizard would you say that the volume spiked for a day then lowered, but was still more than normal, or has the volume stayed the same for the whole time since the problem arose?

Stijn

I sure hope I'm not getting sick

@angussidney that reads like a question you'd find in a survey :p

Andrew T.

11:12 AM

@ShadowWizard this userscript "SE Chat Modifications" is able to show the time for each message, though I don't really understand how it works

Shadow Wizard

@angussidney it's less than what it was right after the bug, but maybe only because the auto-deletion is back. (i.e. maybe it still posts here without waiting 5 minutes first)

@Stijn easy, if too hot just take off the shirt. ;-)

Stijn

@ShadowWizard I'll try that some time, hehe :p

angussidney

@ShadowWizard nah, that can't be the case, otherwise they would show up as (deleted) in chat

Shadow Wizard

hmm... oh well, not sure then.

@AndrewT. you got the script installed? Is it really showing the time of each message?

(i.e. not only for some, as the site itself does?)

Andrew T.

Shadow Wizard

11:30 AM

@AndrewT. huh! Found it. They're probably scraping the history of each message, e.g. chat.meta.stackexchange.com/messages/5851112/history

The time is there.

Andrew T.

@ShadowWizard makes sense

Shadow Wizard

Not cheap, but guess no other way to get exact time of each message. :/

Journeyman Geek

12:00 PM

@Stijn lakhs....

HAS to be inida

Stijn

@JourneymanGeek I wonder if Indians using it here are completely unaware of it being a word specific to Indian English

Journeyman Geek

@Stijn it is likely

I've never seen a diaspora indian use it, and its got varients in most languages

Likewise crore

and in indian, they never use million/billion

M.A.R.

12:35 PM

What the heck does 'lakh' mean anyway?

Andrew T.

@M.A.R. a hundred thousand

Bart

^

M.A.R.

@Stijn Some people I know doubt whether such a thing even exists

Bart

Funny thing is, a former boss of mine accused one of my colleagues of using "Indian English" all the time. Problem was that his English was so perfect, and he had such a great vocabulary, that she didn't understand his English.

M.A.R.

Dontchu use your Indian English on me!

@Bart According to me, Indian English actually simplifies more than complicates

Stijn

12:40 PM

@AndrewT. do you happen to know where "I have a doubt about X" comes from?

M.A.R.

@Stijn From India?

What do you mean?

Stijn

I mean, what would the American/British English equivalent be? I understand it as them having a problem with something, but that's it

The sentence reads as a bad translation from a completely different language

Maybe I'm not making much sense... :)

M.A.R.

@Stijn 'I have a question about'

> Me: Here is the final pdf version of your sixteen-page booklet.

Client: Awesome, can you send that to me as a jpg so I can print it?

Stijn

@M.A.R. does the client intend to print it with their 50$ inkjet printer?

M.A.R.

You never know. It could be 50 dollars 25 cents.

-4

Q: How do you get someone removed as a moderator?

My account on DBA Stack Exchange was recently suspended for 180 days for posting the following comment: "I have admired your determination and desire to teach. But ultimately I find the need to question statements you make when they are this outrageous. Please return to your post, the part that ...

discussion moderators post-ban

Oh wow. O.O

I wonder what makes a mod short-circuit like that

Stijn

1:02 PM

Whatever it is, he sure ain't fit for the position.

Question's gone. Did OP self-delete?

Shadow Wizard

@Stijn no, @bluefeet deleted it

Personally think there's a good chance the mod message is faked.

If not, that moderator should be removed NOW. Without second thought.

And better have a CM look on all recent mod messages, and make a cleanup of bad moderators like that.

(and if faked, that user better get a full year suspension as punishment.)

Stijn

@ShadowWizard that sounds plausible. If that's the case it ought to be clarified though, to clear the moderator's name.

Shadow Wizard

Yup, only other mod can know though, or SE team.

M.A.R.

@JasonC I'm a populist

Shadow Wizard

Pop what?

Pop elitist?

Stijn

1:13 PM

@ShadowWizard yes, @M.A.R. is a pop music hipster

Shadow Wizard

yup that's what he is ;)

@Art there is no excuse to such a message. Period. If such message was really sent, that mod should be removed and never be elected again.

If one can't take insults and turns to offensive language himself, he's not made to be moderator, simple as that.

No gray area here, in my opinion, and if SE team is OK with that it's really sad.

M.A.R.

Telling @Sha to #$$% off

Without regards, MAR

Shadow Wizard

Show me your diamond first, @M.A.R. ;)

M.A.R.

Shadow Wizard

Not yours.

Fake!

M.A.R.

1:19 PM

No it's mine

Shadow Wizard

No it's not

bluefeet

@ShadowWizard yes, it will be handled elsewhere.

M.A.R.

I shot that picture yesterday night

Shadow Wizard

@bluefeet yes I saw the comment.

don't really care about the user, guess he deserve to be suspended, but if that message is real, I do care about that moderator. Thought SE has better policy.

@M.A.R. prove

M.A.R.

If two mods are involved, there's a good chance the user did deserve the suspension

Shadow Wizard

1:22 PM

take selfie with the diamond ;)

M.A.R.

3 mins ago, by M.A.R.

Shadow Wizard

...

M.A.R.

I'm in the background

It was dark, so you can't see me clearly

Shadow Wizard

@M.A.R. yeah, don't doubt that and care less about that.

@M.A.R. put FHRC

M.A.R.

A moment

Shadow Wizard

1:23 PM

A coment

M.A.R.

Shadow Wizard

Not enough arrows. Too many circles. Fail.

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizard Molecules need that many circles.

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported answer: Выполнение персональных действий без регистрации by Панасенко Андрей on ru.stackoverflow.com

M.A.R.

The only problem I have is carrying my giant diamond.

Shadow Wizard

1:28 PM

Also, you stole it from The Huffington Post. calling police

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizard Nah, I let them take a picture of my diamond

Shadow Wizard

@M.A.R. prove. Show the contract.

M.A.R.

The Contract (2006 film)

The Contract is a 2006 film directed by Bruce Beresford and written by television writer Stephen Katz and John Darrouzet. A cat-and-mouse thriller, The Contract stars Morgan Freeman as assassin Frank Carden and John Cusack as teacher Ray Keene. Released directly to video in the United States and most of Europe, The Contract received little critical notice, despite its high-profile cast. == Plot == Frank Carden (Morgan Freeman) is a professional assassin who has been hired to kill a reclusive billionaire named Lydell Hammond, Sr., a vocal opponent of stem cell research. Carden's plan goes awry when...

Shadow Wizard

@M.A.R. no no, your contact.

With The Huffington Post. Not Tim Post.

M.A.R.

Further details not possible for security concerns

Shadow Wizard

1:33 PM

@M.A.R. give me clearance then

M.A.R.

@ShadowWizard OK. Gives @Sha clearance

Shadow Wizard

Yay!

waiting for clearance to take effect

M.A.R.

Keep waiting

Shadow Wizard

still waiting

Also waiting for @Bart's custom flag to be handled...

Bart

Shadow Wizard

1:43 PM

:(

SmokeDetector

1:56 PM

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword with a link in answer, pattern-matching website in answer: What languages are perceived as classy or fancy to French speakers? by Dissertation Writing Help on french.SE

user315433

2:09 PM

As of about four weeks ago, the number of commits in the @StackOverflow code base can no longer be stored in 16 bits.

Tweeted by balpha on March 14, 2017 at 1:04 PM

Shadow Wizard

hehe

Andrew T.

@Stijn sorry, I don't have any idea... I probably used it too, but I'm not a native speaker (no, I'm not from India either). Also quora.com/…

Journeyman Geek

3:14 PM

hm

@ShadowWizard My parents are from india, and I have no idea

or "needful"

I have a doubt might be a literal translation, but that would be from hindi, which I don't speak

user315433

3:35 PM

> Fun fact: “Nor’easter” comes from “ignore Easter”, a holiday celebrated by non-observant Christians. -- Matt Sherman at 7:07 AM - 14 Mar 2017

user315433

(There's some kind of a snow event around SE headquarters)

user315433

Normal University told non-essential personnel to not show up. Naturally, I couldn't admit to being one of those, so I'm in the office.

user315433

A pink Formula 1 car, that's a first AFAIR. Looks great.

user315433

> haven't had nearly enough coffee for this level of meta meta.stackexchange.com/a/292340

user315433

Meta posts should be rated based on how much coffee it takes to read them.

user315433

3:45 PM

Comment flag discussions would be pretty high in those rankings.

Bart

3:59 PM

user315433

FR: flag users as "rude", "too chatty", or "no longer needed".

Derpy

import * as continuum from "App/Config/deLancieProviderConfig";
.....
.....
.....
appModule.config(continuum.QProviderConfig);

M.A.R.

4:24 PM

Check your email, Matthew. You're on thin ice here. — Shog9 ♦ 20 mins ago

CC @Sha. I kinda think the OP faked the mod message now

Shog9

No.

But he did leave out rather a lot of context, and refuses to discuss it when pressed. So, not something I particularly want to discuss in public unless/until there's no other option.

Bart

/me gets popcorn anyway

Derpy

mumble.... "If I am concerned about unchecked sexism across the sites, how would I raise the topic or seek a task force?" - seems that the OP had a chat based discussion about related issues some time ago. Think that the question may be related.

user315433

On the thin ice of modern life...

Shog9

@Derpy maybe @JanDvorak can enlighten us? I'm thoroughly confused.

user315433

4:30 PM

Pink Floyd came to mind because I'm trying to get through the entire The Endless River (2014) for the first time. Got a large coffee, but not sure it'll be enough.

Bart

@Derpy that whole thing rather sounds like "I want a place where I can preach to the choir, and once done we'll tell the community how to behave"

Derpy

I was doing some research to see if the user could really be needing something, best I found was this discussion - chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/54918

not really noteworthy.

M.A.R.

@Bart Your wisdom is destroying me

@Derpy Mhm

BTW, which Wikipedia image does the SE bot choose when oneboxing the link?

It's not the first image, and doesn't seem to be random.

Jan Dvorak

4:50 PM

Somebody called me?

I have witnessed some discussion on the topic of gender pronouns, but not with this question's poster specifically.

It's been a while since I did, too

M.A.R.

@JanDvorak Shog wanted you to enlighten us

Shog9

5:06 PM

Yeah, you're 'sposed to spout koans and hit us with sticks

user315433

Current state of SU election

Jason C

@ShadowWizard Well I store a time but they're guesses. The timestamps are only in the chat every once in a while, so I just associate the most recently read timestamp with each message. So they aren't accurate but at least they're in the ballpark.

If you grab my transcripts its why you see long runs of the same timestamps in the csv summaries.

user315433

5:40 PM

I don't understand the problem. "Too many SD reports" is subjective. If there is a bug with 5-minute delay, it can be documented by clicking on a report after it's posted and noticing whether the post is 5 minutes old or not. With "too many reports" it should not be hard to find evidence.

user315433

5:58 PM

Was about to post a question on Mathematics but the list of "questions that may already have an answer" had one where it was already answered... by me.

bluefeet

you're so good, you already answered yourself

Jason C

Lol

That happens to me sometimes.

ɥʇǝS

I've done that before lol

Jason C

I love finding old usenet posts that I have no recollection of writing, where I answer my own question.

ɥʇǝS

I come from Google, click upvote "you can't upvote yourself".. wait, I posted that answer?

Jason C

6:02 PM

Lol

Andy

@ɥʇǝS Which is better than trying to down vote yourself. Been there...edited the answer to be better

ɥʇǝS

@Andy haha, that's hilarious.

Bart

@M.A.R. by wisdom you mean "nonsensical rambling"?

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question: About the Riemann Zeta Function by Euler on mathoverflow.net

Wrzlprmft

6:41 PM

@Shog9 You summoned me.

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft oh, hey

So rather than spending the rest of the week in comments...

What's your question?

Wrzlprmft

@Shog9 You claimed “‘obsolete’ is misleading to both flaggers and mods”. Can you back this up in any way (given the pertaining context, i.e., obsolete being a separate flag is confusing or people are confused what they shall use it for)?

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft the obsolete flag is misleading

Wrzlprmft

Alternatively: What problem does merging obsolete with other flags solve?

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft it better captures the method by which the flag is commonly handled

Wrzlprmft

6:50 PM

@Shog9 I presume that you are referring to the fact that there is no difference under the hood between obsolete and too chatty. Is this really a problem? If yes, why? — Most close reasons are handled identically except for the wording. Same goes for NAA and VLQ (except for that downvote).

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft not quite

Let's step back for a moment...

Broadly-speaking, there are a couple of ways to interpret just about any flag

1. "this specific thing that's being flagged is problematic in some way"

and

2. "the context in which this flag was raised is problematic in some way"

Now, most flags have some element of both, but tend toward #1

The obvious exception being "other" / "in need of moderator attention/intervention", in which the text typed by the flagger is used to establish context and might therefore indicate a problem that is much greater in scope than the post/comment being flagged or even entirely separate from what is flagged.

But, a good moderator should be able to interpret a flag in order to determine what is needed in each case. For example, a spam flag might also result in the destruction of the author of the post, or a rude flag might trigger a warning or suspension.

Comment flags are immediately problematic because - with the exception of "other" - they carry very little context by default.

A rude comment may be just that - someone being unnecessarily crass in their method of communication - or it may be a part of a larger argument full of crass and insulting language.

But, in the flag queue, you're given nothing but the text of the comment and the name of the flag to help you judge this.

Example:

There are 7 comments in that thread in total

Including the one to which the flagged comment replies

None of that is indicated directly in the UI, so a moderator handling this has to guess

This is usually not a crippling problem for rude/offensive/whatever

But "obsolete" implies something else - namely, that the comment was important at some point but now is no longer.

The UI is the same though - both for the flagger, and for the moderator handling the flag.

There's still no way to provide context, nor is implicit context exposed

In busy threads / questions, this actually gets even worse if you click through to the question, since comment flags aren't shown inline... So "don't handle comment flags from the mod queue" is problematic not only because it greatly increases flag handling time, but also because it may not even help.

One might expect breaking off "obsolete" into a separate flag type to improve this, but it doesn't appear to do so in the common case

For starters, flaggers routinely use it in cases where no context is needed ("noise"), so there's a heavy cost to adding additional steps to processing them.

Wrzlprmft

7:05 PM

@Shog9 Do they, the obsolete flag?

Shog9

On top of that, there's no consistency: some flaggers will flag all obsolete comments, others will flag only one, others will flag the post

@Wrzlprmft yes

Wrzlprmft

This does not match with my experience.

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft don't take this wrong, but your experience is extremely limited here

German Language, right?

Wrzlprmft

yes

Shog9

I'm counting... 22 comment flags in the past 30 days

Wrzlprmft

7:07 PM

@Shog9 I am aware of this. Still, an obsolete flag on an obviously noisy post does not do much harm.

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft of course not. With the potential exception of "offensive" and "other", all comment flags are pretty benign - they generally don't indicate severe problems, just minor annoyances or less

Wrzlprmft

So, then what’s the problem with people occasionally using obsolete when they should have used too chatty or similar?

Shog9

There is no problem, as long as moderators mostly ignore the flag type and just handle flags based on whether the comment needs to be deleted or not.

Which, for the most part at least, is what happens

problems arise when either moderators expect to handle certain types of flags differently, or flaggers expect certain types of flags to be handled differently.

Which occasionally happens, and is what prompted this focus on reworking comment flags

Wrzlprmft

@Shog9 I agree, that’s the problem we are having with too chatty and not constructive or with NAA and VLQ.

But I do not see that this is a big problem for obsolete. As I said: You can easily find people being confused about the meaning of too chatty and not constructive, but not of obsolete.

Shog9

"obsolete" means - in practice - "this comment is no longer needed".

it doesn't mean, "clean up this thread" (although that should probably be done in many cases), or "this comment was addressed by an edit" (although that also may be the case) or "this comment is a response to a now-deleted comment" (although that too happens quite often)

Wrzlprmft

7:20 PM

Okay, and from this you conclude?

ɥʇǝS

simple is better

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft That - right now - we're in a situation where three flags essentially mean the same thing, but may imply that they'll be handled (or should be handled) differently. And it mostly just works because no one cares that much about comments; they don't require a lot of precision (I've said before, y'all could just wipe the threads in response to any flag and it'd work out just fine most of the time - in fact, I often do just that).

...but, every now and then, either a moderator or a flagger will try to adopt a more strict interpretation of one or another, and then we get problems.

Wrzlprmft

@ɥʇǝS Not always.

Undo

@NormalHuman Happen to have a link to that blog post you wrote a while back about calculating API quotas around spam detection? I'd like to do some experiments building off that, if you still have it around.

Shog9

Now, it'd be pretty nice to have a dedicated system for handling obsolete comments. For example, that "notify authors" thing we talked about, coupled with a way to select multiple flags at once instead of flagging them individually. Different UI for flaggers, very different UI for mods (who wouldn't even be the first-line handlers for these).

But, that'd take a bit of work to build, and I'd want to run some tests first to see if it even stands a chance of working.

Most importantly, if we're gonna start building in heavy-weight stuff like that it's critical to break folks of past notions about what flags mean. Which is squarely where I'm aiming with all of this: strip flags down to the bare essentials, determine what (if anything) is missing, build it up.

Wrzlprmft

7:31 PM

@Shog9 we're in a situation where three flags essentially mean the same thing, but may imply that they'll be handled (or should be handled) differently – I slightly disagree. Obsolete communicates something different to the moderator than too chatty which will result in a slightly different way of handling, which may save time.

You argue that moderators on large sites do not have the time for this to make a difference (which I do not dispute), but then we should not show them obsolete flags in the first place, because a truly obsolete comment is indistinguishable from a comment that should not be deleted from the moderator interface.

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft that just trades one problem for a bigger one

Undo

I can process obsolete comment flags fairly quickly with a script or two. Clearing out 50+ on SO is a matter of single-digit minutes.

user315433

@Undo It doesn't seem to exist anymore, even in the trash folder. I tend to delete stuff I have written... and on the blog I can do it without getting suspended. :)

Undo

And that includes looking at context

Feeds

Stack Overflow Blog: El estado de Stack Overflow en español: Febrero 2017

posted on March 14, 2017 by Juan M

Continuamos presentando algunos números interesantes mensuales. En esta ocasión, nos toca reportar sobre el mes de febrero. ¿Qué les parece lo siguiente? The post El estado de Stack Overflow en español: Febrero 2017 appeared first on Stack Overflow Blog.

M.A.R.

7:33 PM

I guess the only way to make sure is to clear up what's regarded as obsolete on meta. 'Welcome' comments are established obsolete on Chem, but IIRC I got a flag declined on ELL simply because the mod felt the comment shouldn't be removed because noise is okay.

user315433

@Feeds Heh, this wasn't meant for us. But thanks.

Wrzlprmft

@Undo Would this still work, if obsolete and too chatty/not constructive were merged?

Undo

@Wrzlprmft Easily

It'd be faster because I wouldn't have to switch categories

Wrzlprmft

@Undo Why do you have to switch categories?

Undo

Shog's filter script has a tendency to just throw you to a random flag when you reach the end of a list. Super technical point that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.

M.A.R.

7:35 PM

Shog has a point. Comments aren't important, but it's sometimes implied that if you choose a different flag option for a comment that should be removed, it should be declined.

Shog9

Also worth keeping in mind that a not-insignificant quantity of comment flags are handled by the system without any moderator intervention, which guarantees no one is looking at context.

Wrzlprmft

@Shog9 That would be by reaching a critical amount of flags?

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft or the comment contains a trigger word

or the post is deleted

Wrzlprmft

@M.A.R. I get that, but is that really a problem with obsolete? Everybody seems to agree on what it’s for.

M.A.R.

@Wrzlprmft What people don't agree on is when something is regarded as obsolete.

Wrzlprmft

7:38 PM

@Undo So you do not use the flag reason at all, not even for starting where to look for something that verifies a flag?

M.A.R.

Some mods want to preserve content because. They're hesitant to remove comments for this reason.

Wrzlprmft

@M.A.R. Yes, there is some grey zone, but that problem won’t be solved if obsolete is merged with too chatty.

Undo

@Wrzlprmft Subconsciously, I probably switch the order of what I'm looking for around, but otherwise no.

Either a comment should stay or it shouldn't. I often delete comments when I come onto a page through Google.

M.A.R.

'the comment is hurting no one' is an argument everyone uses.

Undo

After a while you just recognize them fast enough to not think about it

Wrzlprmft

7:40 PM

@Undo @Shog9: Can you modify that script so it simulates the effects of your proposed change and measure the impact on Undo’s performance?

Undo

Heh. I'm low enough these days that it'd be pretty noisy data

M.A.R.

@Undo Mhm, and this is how they should be handled. Mods on smaller sites aren't usually like this though, except multi-mods.

Wrzlprmft

@M.A.R. I delete most comments from outside the mod queue.

M.A.R.

I think most mods do

If they ever delete comments

Shog9

@M.A.R. there seems to be a certain stage in the lifecycle of a site where complaints about moderator actions rise significantly but the community as a whole isn't really able/willing to step up and defend them yet, so mods risk ending up spending a tremendous amount of time just explaining the same actions over and over again.

Undo

7:43 PM

So here's how I look at the current grouping: 'too chatty' flags are like candy. Quick to process, no need to leave the queue, can do one or two a second if I'm in the zone. 'Not constructive' is almost the same story, with a tiny bit of slow down to open context where necessary. Obsolete is a small step down from that, usually means opening more posts (but often not most).

Wrzlprmft

@M.A.R. That may be a problem, but it’s not a problem that is relevant here. If the flagger and mod disagree whether a comment should be deleted for any reason, the details of the flag do not matter.

Shog9

Undo

When opening rude/offensive I'm usually looking to give out suspensions and check comment history, but I do that for NC too

Jan Dvorak

@Shog9 Sounds awfully similar to SOCVR team v. MSO community

Undo

'other' is 'other' and varies with the moon cycle

Shog9

7:45 PM

@JanDvorak yeah. Any time you get some shady cabal controlling things from the shadows, really.

Jan Dvorak

Would giving us more visibility / officiality help?

Shog9

Folks should just accept the fact that their lives are controlled by secret societies with inscrutable agendas and stop worrying about it.

Or, y'know, that transparency thing I guess

Could publish weekly reports or something

Undo

Some context for how these things are processed: On SO, I usually handle the first 10 then position my mouse above the delete button. After the first ten, you can keep your mouse in the same place, put your eyes on the other side of the page, and handle the next 40 pretty quick.

Shog9

and this is why redesigning the flag queue is so hard...

There are probably children out there holding down spacebar to stay warm in the winter! YOUR UPDATE MURDERS CHILDREN.

Wrzlprmft

@Undo The crucial point is whether you make use of the flag type, in particular obsolete.

Undo

7:49 PM

@Wrzlprmft And the answer to that is "pretty much no"

Wrzlprmft

Okay, another thing: If handling comments is so easy and quick on SO, why all the fuss on streamlining it? Wasn’t reducing SO moderator workload what triggered all of this?

Undo

People read way too far into flag types. meta.stackoverflow.com/q/344614/1849664

To be honest, I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're trying to argue here and why. It feels almost like you're trying to convince big site moderators that this will cause issues on big sites.

Shog9

@Wrzlprmft we're in good shape at the moment because we have like 3 active moderators who are handling the bulk of the comment flags very quickly, and a few more who could handle more of them if necessary. That's not always the case.

They pile up very, very quickly if you have to wait for someone new to get up to speed

Wrzlprmft

@Undo I am not, I am trying to understand Shog9’s position.

Undo

Gotcha

On small sites, this is pretty clear - people will look at the options, and write stuff in 'other' if the options don't fit. Small site moderators have plenty of bandwidth to handle those individual cases.

Shog9

7:56 PM

Ever work on a factory line? It's like that. Everything looks bulletproof until you throw a new guy on the line and it all comes to a screeching halt.

Wrzlprmft

Okay, point taken.

Undo

@Shog9 Still, only a bus factor of two. Maybe three. After that, we're looking at running an election and hoping we get some high performers.

Actually, probably only a factor of 1 before we start slipping. The last election put us over the hump on keeping up with the queue, but only just.

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